With all this talk about this edition of SWTOR PvP being very healer friendly, more specifically the Scoundrels/Operatives *(WHICH I DON"T THINK ARE OP)* I wanted to dive in and find out exactly why it ended up this way. Why is this such a healer friendly PvP now? Why do so many people THINK Scoundrels/Operatives are OP?

Well the obvious thing would be to look at the classes themselves. (From this point on I will be saying this from the Imperial perspective in terms of names of abilities and talents because that is what I have played). The biggest claim to the Operatives being OP is the roll. Yes its a BIG game changer and we have seen that with strategies revolving around using those rolls effectively, especially at the start of games/rounds. Although there are many tools that all the classes have to slowdown or root the Operatives in combat that severely reduce its effectiveness. Not enough people use them efficiently and in turn see the Operatives as "OP."

Healing across the board has gone up between all three classes. Yes the Operatives and Sorcs seem to be a little more effective in a WZ, but the Merc really isn't as far behind as some may think. I haven't really thought about exactly what the Mercs would need, but that's not what this thread is about so I'll move on and save that thought for later. As mentioned, the healing output has gone up overall and so has DPS......mostly

This brings me to my main point. Before 2.0 one of the most powerful burst DPS classes in the game was the Pyrotech. Even going back to early patches, it continued to be slightly nerfed over and over, but still was a monster of a DPS class. Although, come 2.0 it took a severe hit and now rarely do you see a full Pyrotech in game. Mostly people have gone to hybrid specs that involve getting Oil Slick, changed to Advanced Prototype, or changed to Tank.

Now lets say....Pyrotech had the 1.7 Thermal Detonator and CGC damage wasn't nerfed by 50%, BUT the Advanced Prototype tree looked as it does presently (basically Charged Gauntlets being tied to Prototype Cylinder Ventilation) as to not have the crazy hybrid from the first 2.0 PTS. What would we be seeing today? Would healing still be king in PvP? Would the cries of OP rolls still be happening as much? (Because you know there would still be whining about it no matter what )

Remember, CGC was mainly done from your Flame Burst which was a low heat and constantly used attack in Pyro, which would constantly apply a 30% slow to the affected target, which in turn would severely lesson the effectiveness of the roll as it would only go half distance. Plus Flame Sweep in 2.0 applying CGC and at a lower heat cost would help with slowing multiple healers. Finally, we know how many people had been playing the Pyrotech, including myself (although I thoroughly enjoy the fun of AdvProto).

Anyway, not sure exactly how to "conclude" this post except to just put it up for discussion. How different would WZs be if Pyrotech didn't get the CGC nerf and change to Thermal Detonator? Would it still be healer friendly? Would we see too many corpses on the battlefield? Or would it actually be a little more balanced?

Its the same with all classes though I don't think any class has had a period of time where all three specs were useful.

Pyrotechs make quite good tanks now I've found when well played where is Sin tanks are mediocre but their deception tree is useful in Pvp.

Sorcerers madness tree used to be good in pvp but it took a knock with some of its changes and its other trees were boosted.

Look at sentinels and watchman, now there is a prime example its next to useless in Pvp now the opposite of what it used to be. Nerfs and buffs, what I hate is the bugs within the warzone bolster and gearing system Its ridiculous some of it. They come up with proc relics which don't even work properly Pvp is a shambles at the moment in general nothing specific to any one class.

Bioware will never admit their mistakes they believe the majority want this bugged system. If it worked like it was supposed to maybe it would help but clearly their programmers are mediocre at best I know this is complicated work but for the cash they invested in this game the amount of bugs is ridiculous.

They did more than that to kill pyrotechs.

1. They took away a good deal of armor penetration on rail shot. No idea why, I guess someone thought that a 7K single target attack was overpowered when smashers can AOE for 8K.

2. The CGC nerf had to happen, the dot was easy mode as it was, but it did take away a third of the pyro's damage. Which makes the armor pen and TD nerf even worse.

3. We all know about TD. As a top tier skill it is one of the worst in the game.

4. We lost energy rebounder. Our ONE good defense CD. GONE. It reduced the long cooldown of our shields and gave us an occasional redoubt proc that would absorb damage. Nobody mentions this but the pyro spec sorely needed it. They gave it to AP.

All together, it destroyed the class. That's why nobody plays it. No burst. No defense. The decision was so bad I can't believe that it was done. It makes absolutely no sense unless the devs seriously just play operatives or smashers, and they wanted to kill off the PT class out of rage or spite.

I can't believe I made it this far without seriously insulting Bioware or their employees.

Please fix (1), (3), and (4). Fix the class Bioware.

They did more than that to kill pyrotechs.

 

1. They took away a good deal of armor penetration on rail shot. No idea why, I guess someone thought that a 7K single target attack was overpowered when smashers can AOE for 8K.

 

2. The CGC nerf had to happen, the dot was easy mode as it was, but it did take away a third of the pyro's damage. Which makes the armor pen and TD nerf even worse.

 

3. We all know about TD. As a top tier skill it is one of the worst in the game.

 

4. We lost energy rebounder. Our ONE good defense CD. GONE. It reduced the long cooldown of our shields and gave us an occasional redoubt proc that would absorb damage. Nobody mentions this but the pyro spec sorely needed it. They gave it to AP.

 

All together, it destroyed the class. That's why nobody plays it. No burst. No defense. The decision was so bad I can't believe that it was done. It makes absolutely no sense unless the devs seriously just play operatives or smashers, and they wanted to kill off the PT class out of rage or spite.

 

I can't believe I made it this far without seriously insulting Bioware or their employees.

 

Please fix (1), (3), and (4). Fix the class Bioware.

AP needed it more than you. Sustained DPS specs like AP need more sustained defense to put it out. I agree that you're flat out broken after the nerfs as pyro, but if you got to keep your burst, losing the shield doesn't mean too much. A good defense is a good offense.

EDIT: Also carnage. Carnage is now a lot harder to play. I'm thinking scream should be hitting harder than force smash. One's AOE, free, and can be used every 7-8 seconds, the other is single target, costs 2 rage, and can only be used every 9 seconds. If single target burst came back then we'd all be gooood

AP needed it more than you. Sustained DPS specs like AP need more sustained defense to put it out. I agree that you're flat out broken after the nerfs as pyro, but if you got to keep your burst, losing the shield doesn't mean too much. A good defense is a good offense.

LOL Well we're not sustained DPS anymore now are we? Pyro needed the rebounder. They should have come up with something better for AP.

For example: They should have given AP oil slick instead, it's a better defensive CD since it slows everyone down and takes 30% accuracy away. Not to mention that it seems more of a 'gadget-type' thing. A creative dev would have taken it further and then allowed AP to ignite the oil slick with PFT - burning all hostiles inside of it. The best skills are the ones that all fit and work together. Oil slick would at least make PFT easier to apply to more people.

LOL Well we're not sustained DPS anymore now are we? Pyro needed the rebounder. They should have come up with something better for AP.

 

For example: They should have given AP oil slick instead, it's a better defensive CD since it slows everyone down and takes 30% accuracy away. Not to mention that it seems more of a 'gadget-type' thing. A creative dev would have taken it further and then allowed AP to ignite the oil slick with PFT - burning all hostiles inside of it. The best skills are the ones that all fit and work together. Oil slick would at least make PFT easier to apply to more people.

Well, I played AP back when PTF required 5 stacks.... I had no free GCDs in my rotation and could only do it three times before overheating

We always had something to use, and that, in my book, is sustained. If you play something like carnage, you'll have a lot of blank times where you're just doing massacre.

Also I super agree with oil slick

Watchman spec got nerfed multiple times. Watchman was one of the best specs to kill medics prior to patch 1.5. Pyro powertech isn't the only spec that shouldn't have been nerfed.

Amen to that

Watchman spec got nerfed multiple times. Watchman was one of the best specs to kill medics prior to patch 1.5. Pyro powertech isn't the only spec that shouldn't have been nerfed.

Nothing really changed with watchman the entire time apart from the healer player base becoming more knowledgeable about cleansing the dots..

Nothing really changed with watchman the entire time apart from the healer player base becoming more knowledgeable about cleansing the dots..

Agreed. Watchman/Annihilation was always a bleed spec, but it has always been something that is easy to cleanse and move on. I think the only reason why we saw way more Annihilation specs back then was because Carnage/Combat wasn't as effective as it is today and not everyone wanted to use Rage. The real way to "fix" annihilation/watchman is find a way to protect their bleeds from easy cleansing somehow, such as Lingering Toxins in Lethality.

To the point about resource management for Operative, yes it is really easy to manage, especially with the fact that no Operative should EVER not have 2 TAs 95% of the time with how many abilities grant it which allows many more surgical probes over 30% than there used to be. That is something that could be debatable, whether or not to lesson the chance or one of the abilities looses the chance to grant TA.

Nothing really changed with watchman the entire time apart from the healer player base becoming more knowledgeable about cleansing the dots..

I wasn't here prior to 1.6 so I don't know much. But were they not nerfed (maybe patch 1.3?) by reducing the self heal on bleed crits ? Beside the spec itself need some work to make it viable (mainly with dps ramp up time).

I wasn't here prior to 1.6 so I don't know much. But were they not nerfed (maybe patch 1.3?) by reducing the self heal on bleed crits ? Beside the spec itself need some work to make it viable (mainly with dps ramp up time).

There was the self healing nerf but what difference does 1% of healing to yourself make when focusing healers? none really. Same downfalls as it always was tbh.

There was the self healing nerf but what difference does 1% of healing to yourself make when focusing healers? none really. Same downfalls as it always was tbh.

1% more healing = more survivability = more time you can spend making sure that healer is busy! Sometimes you don't have to kill the healer, just keeping him busy achieve the required objective in mind. Beside, if I am not mistaken, Annihilation/Watchman used to be very good in attacking off-nods.

But regardless of all of that, the spec does not need major tweaking. It just has to do with two things (in my opinion) reduce the ramp up time for dps (those 4 stacks of annihilate need 40 seconds to achieve), and prolong the juyo/annihilate stacks by 2~3 GCDs.

There will never be a way to make the spec viable for rwz without changing the specs playstyle completely but i find it quite fun to play in normals from time to time. One thing that could be looked into is maybe a talent to increase the crit chance of annihilate/merciless , it crits very little and this wasnt a problen when you'd run 30-35% crit but now with crit changes a talent like that would be beneficial. (say maybe 15-20% talent)

Many other classes have a similar thing so i don't see why watchman/anni shouldnt get it.

Well, I played AP back when PTF required 5 stacks.... I had no free GCDs in my rotation and could only do it three times before overheating

 

We always had something to use, and that, in my book, is sustained. If you play something like carnage, you'll have a lot of blank times where you're just doing massacre.

 

Also I super agree with oil slick

If you have enough Focus/Rage to spam it that it is. The change to Zen was awful for Combat/Carnage

1% more healing = more survivability = more time you can spend making sure that healer is busy! Sometimes you don't have to kill the healer, just keeping him busy achieve the required objective in mind. Beside, if I am not mistaken, Annihilation/Watchman used to be very good in attacking off-nods.

But regardless of all of that, the spec does not need major tweaking. It just has to do with two things (in my opinion) reduce the ramp up time for dps (those 4 stacks of annihilate need 40 seconds to achieve), and prolong the juyo/annihilate stacks by 2~3 GCDs.

I may add as well there has been a critic chance reduction on bleed effects. And there is a ramp up on annihilate and ramp up on Juyo form (6 atks in PvP common). Many players mentioned this before, reduce the ramp up on Juyo form (stacks twice as fast) and make bleed effects unclensable and you will see a lot of annihilation marauders. And they are great healer killers between slow and interrupts.

Going back to Pyro. Unquestionably Pyro was the number 1 enemy for any healers with constant slows and burst damage, which both are much needed in current day PvP. The nerfs to pyro limited the class damage potential by 20% and between 40 to 50% in burst, paired with the class terrible defensive capabilities, pyro tech and PTs in general are the worst class currently in PvP as dps. And tank, is still behind jugg.

I do agree that the contest that the nerfs to single target classes attributed to the healotipia we currently have in WZ, but it is not the only factor. Most healers healing capacity has been upped by 20 to 25% compared to per-expansion era. I will just used sorc as an example. There are 6 healing skills (dark heal, dark infusion, inverate, barrier, hot and aoe heal). 4 out of the skills have either their cast time or healing capacity improved. In addition, sorc received a 20% alacrity buff on 120 secs cd, originally only lighting tree had. As a sorc healer, my healing capacity is around 25% stronger than it was, without taking gear into consideration. Did damage go up by 25% for most classes? No. I would argue that dps compared to hps has been reduced with the nerf of critic and surge.

Result of nerfing single target dps classes and buffing healing of all healing classes we are currently in the healotpia era. Add to that the lolster and PvP experience when from highly enjoyable to chore in matter of one patch (2.0). Will BW make any changes in 2.3? Probably not. The changes in 2.4 will be one new WZ with minor class balances like the movement speed increase in shien form in 2.2.

we sure wouldnt be seeing all these nerf Operative threads if PTs still had their burst.

They were the pre eminent Operative killer, because they eat that last 30% of your HPs like no other class did- even better than many classes with executes due to the timing on TD and ED, plus the dots burning harder below 30% you could easily ramp up the damage for a sub 30% stun kill.

This is actually an important thread to look at and think about. Because the "domino effect" is indeed an issue due to this nerf, so I would hope the devs recognize this and look into reverting PT pyro to burst rather than more senseless nerfing of a fun healing class (operative)

If anything healing is perfect now, but DPS is hard to help because its a skill cap player issue more than anything. People dont use focus fire or interrupts and stuns properly.

Watchman spec got nerfed multiple times. Watchman was one of the best specs to kill medics prior to patch 1.5. Pyro powertech isn't the only spec that shouldn't have been nerfed.

isnt watchman dot based? any healer with half a brain will just cleanse those dots.....

The roll isn't the main issue with op healers. The skill itself maybe a problem. But the main reason Ops are op is they have no resource management requirements and healing in general is over tuned.. Add in all there escapes and mobility and you have an op class.

I agree. The Op roll wouldn't be an issue if Ops actually had to carefully manage their resources, but the fact that they don't means they can spam roll as frequently as they want since they always have plenty of energy.

while i agree about the pt nerf affecting the current healing state, people tend to forget that it wasnt exactly pleasurable to be destroyed within 2-3 gcds by the pt in those days either. and the qq threads about that was epic as well. Making one class OP to counter another OP class, leaving the other 6 classes to flounder is not exactly the best balance either.

carnage is in the same boat. the attacks are no longer fluid with some filler needed now, and the crit nerf is felt, though they were a bit op in the pre 2.0 days as well.

jugg veng tree is in a nice spot. I wish they take a look at that sort of balance, and apply similar creativity and skill cohesiviness to the pryo/carnage/scrapper trees to balance them out and make them more fun and effective.

If you have enough Focus/Rage to spam it that it is. The change to Zen was awful for Combat/Carnage

The lack of resource is what makes it bursty. Because you can't sustain mediocre massacre hits IN ADDITION to the fantastic (but RNG dependent) single target burst.

AP has lots and lots of heat to use, vigilance has lots of focus, etc.

Rage, on the other hand, is loaded with rage AND has some decent big hits. Not to mention stupidly easy to play. I can't tell if rage is sustained or if it's burst (People say it's good for pvp).

Vigilance is SUSTAINED. Not burst. It was made slightly more bursty and slightly less sustained with the longer cooldown on plasma brand, which absolutely ****ed up the entire rotation imo.

Don't forget the effect it had on the Mercenary Pyro spec!

Their nerfs were more detrimental to the mercenaries than to the powertechs. Merc Pyro dps can be countered by cleanse ability, even with it having an 8 sec CD.

Merc Pyro used to be the heartier build, but that was given to Arsenal (Rebounder) and now the x2 no cast time CD. Now if you go in as a Merc Pyro, you have a death wish. (Not to mention the added Accuracy you have to spec because of all your white damage)

There is no benefit to being Pyro. Lackluster DPS, additional gearing req, and lower survivability = terrible spec

My PT is lvl 14 so cant say too much there.

But my Combat Sentinel is melting faces without difficulties. I don't feel the zen nerf. I have enough focus, MOST of the time. The dispatch and Precision slash reset is useful frequently. I felt that before 2.0 I was stunned or rooted 85% of the match and couldn't do anything. But now Its crazy burst on demand and I can move. Not to mention I can have enhanced trans up almost the WHOLE match. Makes a big difference in WZ's.

The quad nerf on PT/vans seems excessive though.

Dps powertechs and dps operatives are broken. They both need significant buff.

And cuz both dps are dots-based, like annihilation maras and madness sorcs/sins, their buff must be simply: their dots must heal them for some amoiunt of hp. Thus increased their survivability, and more survivability = less deaths = more damage.