The only thing that is completely broken for assassins is madness in PvP. Deception is fine it relies 100% on burst damage with next to no sustained, the tanks do have some spike damage issues in PvE from what I hear but that's it as darkness and deception both work on a somewhat competitive level in PvP and I will be playing deception in arenas as I feel small battles makes it work way better now in objective based warzones.

Deception PvP is not fine at all - no sustain damage makes it inferior compared to Carnage Marauders or MM Snipers.

Mauraders are the second highest parsing class, and unlike sins they don't have to worry about getting their opener or getting procs

Combat sentinels are, not force. And really third in some fights behind scoundrels and gunslingers. But while combat is ok in pvp no one is really talking about that spec. Look a class with stealth and high burst cannot have sustained damaged too, it would be broken. And combat does worry about getting procs......combat also does not have stealth in the manner that shadows do, stealth in pvp that can be up for more then seconds is a huge edge in any fight, and I've yet to see a game that does a good job balancing the power of stealth in pvp.

Personally being able to combat stealth to me is the biggest issue. Maybe for pvp they should think of disabling it...

Combat sentinels are, not force. And really third in some fights behind scoundrels and gunslingers. But while combat is ok in pvp no one is really taking about that spec. Look a class with stealth and high burst cannot have sustained damaged too, it would be broken. And combat does worry about getting procs......

I would hope you don't disagree that rage maras are too strong with the combo of DCDs and rage tree benefits. Cause if sins would be too much there is little denying maras have the best DCDs in the game in conjunction with the offensive power they bring all other melee DPS pale in comparison which arenas will show again. The options really are bring other classes up some or knock them down a peg. Same with Op heals and Jug tanks in those respective roles.

Deception PvP is not fine at all - no sustain damage makes it inferior compared to Carnage Marauders or MM Snipers.

Hard to say about maras I didn't play this class for ages now I can only talk about their performance from my sorc sin or sniper perspective , but mm snipers are not so cool as you are describing them (edited)

Yes the burst is superb, heavies hitting attacks, class in the mm tree when you get the right rotation feels really great to play but all of this has a price.

Playing a mm sniper is more like playing as your companion (Andronikus for ex) if things will go bad you can't "turn the table" like a sin by trying to ninja cap enemy node, going after enemy healer isn't like a death sentence when (s)he will go Los, above all all your attacks required to be in crouch, once you will be drag out of it you can only pray to be able to toss your flash bang nade.

I won't say mm snipers are bad, I like this class even love it, but I have slightly more fun rolling with my deception sin. At least I don't feel that I'm purely dependable on my team performance and that I can show some kind of the initiative. And this can be seen in my victories because I win more matches on my sin than sniper - tho its not a big problem (and numbers).

Personally being able to combat stealth to me is the biggest issue. Maybe for pvp they should think of disabling it...

a fine idea... if the out of combat mechanics would finally work properly.

Stealth is great in regulars for sure, and combat stealthing is an awesome offensive and defensive CD, but if you are in a DPS race with no further objectives it doesn't help that much (also considering that usually decreases healing on you). Most classes also have AoE to successfully knock assassins and operatives out of stealth successfully, so it can be countered by a competent player.... Being know out of stealth at wrong moment more often than not means death.

Since there is a significant CD on it is not like you can spam combat stealth, but have to use it as dosed as possible and only used when really necessary.

On top of that combat stealth has most of its use in objective based wzs, i.e. node guarding or pestering a node and this stuff. I doubt it will have much effect in Arena, since by the CD you probably could only use it once per round, and it is unlikely that stun locking to death, which in regs still can happen from time to time, will play any factor in Arenas. The only use for combat stealth in arena, will be as the "oh ****" defensive CD for operative healers. Then again you cant heal while stealthed, so a simple target switch shall bring him out of his hiding, and you have a lot of time to take him down again

Deception PvP is not fine at all - no sustain damage makes it inferior compared to Carnage Marauders or MM Snipers.

One, I rarely see Carnage marauders and you can somewhat stop a good portion of their dps which is ravage with cc, you cannot stop all the instant abilities outside of defensive cooldowns and taunts to help control the damage. While it sounds nice to get some sustained it would make it crazy OP if they did not tone down the burst which I don't think they should. We will not get to have our cake and eat it to. Deception will be fine for ranked arenas with our current burst capabilities in small scale scenarios.

Personally being able to combat stealth to me is the biggest issue. Maybe for pvp they should think of disabling it...

Yeah no.

I would hope you don't disagree that rage maras are too strong with the combo of DCDs and rage tree benefits. Cause if sins would be too much there is little denying maras have the best DCDs in the game in conjunction with the offensive power they bring all other melee DPS pale in comparison which arenas will show again. The options really are bring other classes up some or knock them down a peg. Same with Op heals and Jug tanks in those respective roles.

I agree with you. It's why my sentinel is combat, which by the way is not easy against even decent players since most of their abilities require chaining moves or casts and they have no hard stun that doesn't require channeling. My guardian is my main pvp toon and he is vig so no smasher because of how powerful I think it is. If smash were single target it would be much better in my view. But I would say right now against a solo healer unless they mess up I have no prayer of putting them down while they still throw heals about, I really should change that to an op healer. So I do see the need for being able to damage so hard in an AoE.

Combat sentinels are, not force. And really third in some fights behind scoundrels and gunslingers. But while combat is ok in pvp no one is really talking about that spec. Look a class with stealth and high burst cannot have sustained damaged too, it would be broken. And combat does worry about getting procs......combat also does not have stealth in the manner that shadows do, stealth in pvp that can be up for more then seconds is a huge edge in any fight, and I've yet to see a game that does a good job balancing the power of stealth in pvp.

 

Personally being able to combat stealth to me is the biggest issue. Maybe for pvp they should think of disabling it...

I am fully aware on how combat works, and you can hardly say rage is bad on sustained either. And are you trying to imply that Sins and operative dps being ablt to combat stealth is somehow OP, while ignoring the fact that sentinels have their own combat stealth.

The argument of burst specs not having any sustained is terrible, BW already said all dps specs should be within 5%. The high burst should be balanced by the in-between abilities putting up low numbers, Where as a true sustained spec, should be putting up steady constant pressure. Besides Deception's burst is RNG dependent, which cannot be said for rage.

I am fully aware on how combat works, and you can hardly say rage is bad on sustained either. And are you trying to imply that Sins and operative dps being ablt to combat stealth is somehow OP, while ignoring the fact that sentinels have their own combat stealth.

The argument of burst specs not having any sustained is terrible, BW already said all dps specs should be within 5%. The high burst should be balanced by the in-between abilities putting up low numbers, Where as a true sustained spec, should be putting up steady constant pressure. Besides Deception's burst is RNG dependent, which cannot be said for rage.

Rage spec's single target sustained DPS is awful. Rage only parses around 2750. Carnage is super easy to shut out. Stun the first gore, knockback the second.

I am fully aware on how combat works, and you can hardly say rage is bad on sustained either. And are you trying to imply that Sins and operative dps being ablt to combat stealth is somehow OP, while ignoring the fact that sentinels have their own combat stealth.

The argument of burst specs not having any sustained is terrible, BW already said all dps specs should be within 5%. The high burst should be balanced by the in-between abilities putting up low numbers, Where as a true sustained spec, should be putting up steady constant pressure. Besides Deception's burst is RNG dependent, which cannot be said for rage.

Of the sentinel builds force(rage) is the lowest sustained DPS. Vigilance on the guardian tree in general scores as well or better the sentinel force for sustained, which is about 10% below watchman which is the number 2 for sustained right now. So force(rage) isn't within 10% of combat, let alone that 5% you are claiming was promised. But all this is besides the real point of making pvp balanced for all.

First if you think sentinel stealth in anyway equals or should be equated to the stealth of shadows or scoundrels then we really are done because we really have little common ground then.

Second yes indeed stealth classes with high burst can not in a balanced and fair pvp game have sustained DPS on par with others in any long fight. The other classes need to be able to put up a fight and have a reasonable chance to win if they live through the burst which means after the burst the other classes need to be able to pump out more DPS when the two are now openly trading blows. If the other class cannot how do they over come the burst of the stealth class? This means when fighting a training dummy and taking a parse over an extended period of time the other classes will do more sustained DPS then the stealth class.

To me the idea that stealth classes should be able to run up (unstealthed) to and simply trade blows with a non stealth class and expect to win is silly, the non stealth class should destroy the stealth class in a straight up broadside exchange. The balance comes from the fact the stealth class doesn't fight that way, he picks his fight he comes in puts the other guy in the hurt locker then wins because of his DPS lead from his burst. But if both the shadow and the sentinel have the same sustained DPS then what you have a situation were stealth is overpowering.

Of the sentinel builds force(rage) is the lowest sustained DPS. Vigilance on the guardian tree in general scores as well or better the sentinel force for sustained, which is about 10% below watchman which is the number 2 for sustained right now. So force(rage) isn't within 10% of combat, let alone that 5% you are claiming was promised. But all this is besides the real point of making pvp balanced for all.

 

 

First if you think sentinel stealth in anyway equals or should be equated to the stealth of shadows or scoundrels then we really are done because we really have little common ground then.

 

Second yes indeed stealth classes with high burst can not in a balanced and fair pvp game have sustained DPS on par with others in any long fight. The other classes need to be able to put up a fight and have a reasonable chance to win if they live through the burst which means after the burst the other classes need to be able to pump out more DPS when the two are now openly trading blows. If the other class cannot how do they over come the burst of the stealth class? This means when fighting a training dummy and taking a parse over an extended period of time the other classes will do more sustained DPS then the stealth class.

 

To me the idea that stealth classes should be able to run up (unstealthed) to and simply trade blows with a non stealth class and expect to win is silly, the non stealth class should destroy the stealth class in a straight up broadside exchange. The balance comes from the fact the stealth class doesn't fight that way, he picks his fight he comes in puts the other guy in the hurt locker then wins because of his DPS lead from his burst. But if both the shadow and the sentinel have the same sustained DPS then what you have a situation were stealth is overpowering.

what you are basically saying is nerf both stealth dps classes such that they are even less viable for serious pvp?

And I thought concealment /scrapper was already completely use:P

Turn it was you want, but dying 8v8 and new arenas cannot be fought from stealth completely. If a non stealth should in principe be able to destroy a stealth class out of stealth ceteris paribus, then operative/scoundrel and assassin/shadow dps would have in principle no place in either (with objectives going away with arenas, even less though in the latter). From what I take from tanking front assassin/shadow tanks are also not really viable for arena (PTS as current setting). This would in principle eliminate a complete advanced class from content, and it is still struggling in the PVE part of the game-> punishing out of stealth dps further would raise the question why not entirely remove the advanced class from the game.

Personally being able to combat stealth to me is the biggest issue. Maybe for pvp they should think of disabling it...

If they gave me smasher comparable damage I'd be ok with it.

Sincerely, I do just fine without stealth toe to toe with other meleers, having to be useless past the first 10 seconds after the opener is too much. After all I can't force-restealth every 20 seconds, I have to wait minutes to use the button again!

Playing a mm sniper is more like playing as your companion (Andronikus for ex) if things will go bad you can't "turn the table" like a sin by trying to ninja cap enemy node, going after enemy healer isn't like a death sentence when (s)he will go Los, above all all your attacks required to be in crouch, once you will be drag out of it you can only pray to be able to toss your flash bang nade.

Imo you are romancing the sin too much. "Going after healer death sentence?" LOL find a vaguely competent and geared one, he'll stay alive till his team mates have vaporized you.

what you are basically saying is nerf both stealth dps classes such that they are even less viable for serious pvp?

And I thought concealment /scrapper was already completely use:P

Turn it was you want, but dying 8v8 and new arenas cannot be fought from stealth completely. If a non stealth should in principe be able to destroy a stealth class out of stealth ceteris paribus, then operative/scoundrel and assassin/shadow dps would have in principle no place in either (with objectives going away with arenas, even less though in the latter). From what I take from tanking front assassin/shadow tanks are also not really viable for arena (PTS as current setting). This would in principle eliminate a complete advanced class from content, and it is still struggling in the PVE part of the game-> punishing out of stealth dps further would raise the question why not entirely remove the advanced class from the game.

So your argument is stealth DPS should be able to stand toe to toe with non stealth, even when the stealth class entered the fight out of stealth?......if they are equal without stealth, how can giving one stealth and not the other keep them equal?.......

Shadow tanks in pvp pretty much might as well not have stealth if they are tanking, tanking means drawing attention to yourself and holding it, or at least diverting some damage to yourself to protect others. Stealthing works the opposite. Honestly from a pvp perspective a stealth tank seems like a killer thing to design right, either it does not work or it is completely op. imagine a tank who could stay stealth yet taunt and guard successfully....it would be brutal. Maybe shadow tanks should get a traint that gives them more damage reduction in exchange for their ability to stealth.....

To me the idea that stealth classes should be able to run up (unstealthed) to and simply trade blows with a non stealth class and expect to win is silly, the non stealth class should destroy the stealth class in a straight up broadside exchange. The balance comes from the fact the stealth class doesn't fight that way, he picks his fight he comes in puts the other guy in the hurt locker then wins because of his DPS lead from his burst. But if both the shadow and the sentinel have the same sustained DPS then what you have a situation were stealth is overpowering.

That'd be fine in GW2, in WoW and even in Warhammer Online.

In GW2 we have vast "outdoor" areas where a "rogue" can indeed do what you say on the unsuspecting passer bys.

In WoW there's much less outdoor but there's still some. Plus there's Alterac Valley with lots of sneaky places. At least this is when I played it.

In Warhammer the "rogues" intercept loners who move from warcamps to keeps or go to a capital city invasion. They can perch quite well in the most unsuspecting locations, i.e. in the middle of guards in a keep where people may even go AFK.

But in SWTOR? No way. There's no "outdoor equivalent" area with any score, points, gear or anything. You just gank level 25s on Tattoine, some on Hoth but that's like 2-3 guys up for ganking over a whole server of players.

So where do those "rogues" have to play? In relatively small areas and they must play nicely with location-constrained objectives. So in the end we have to gravitate around pylons, it's hard to catch unaware people in places they expect to be attacked.

TLDR: our model works in many MMOs but in SWTOR there's just no use-case for us.

In WoW and other games, "rogues" have a PvE and sometimes PvP spec made on huge sustained damage losing the CCs, but not in SWTOR.

So we are a fairly well designed fish... out of his water.

This would in principle eliminate a complete advanced class from content, and it is still struggling in the PVE part of the game-> punishing out of stealth dps further would raise the question why not entirely remove the advanced class from the game.

This, If BW accepted to trade my shadow for a sentinel or a commando or some ranged DPS (I play lots RDPS in most MMOs) that is not sniper, then I'd accept at once.

It's very stressful to feel and be un-competitive and useless and have to fight an uphill battle to be accepted both in PvE and PvP.

Lol. L2P issue. I agree that shadow tanks are worst in PvP as in PvE. Need to increase their DR and reduce their DMG/threath, mb delete auto-crit project and incrase crit chance and delete shadow strike in face. I agree that shadow DPS worst in PvE, but what PvP-s doing here? Are u rerolled form vanguards pre 2.0 and u want 2 button annihilate in deception spec? 3 buttons is not enough? Lol u are sadly. Deception is OP in PvP. Need to reduce their burst.

It's lovely how several people keep repeating the weak spot for deception sins is lack of utility and others somehow translate it in "we want higher burst".

That'd be fine in GW2, in WoW and even in Warhammer Online.

In GW2 we have vast "outdoor" areas where a "rogue" can indeed do what you say on the unsuspecting passer bys.

In WoW there's much less outdoor but there's still some. Plus there's Alterac Valley with lots of sneaky places. At least this is when I played it.

In Warhammer the "rogues" intercept loners who move from warcamps to keeps or go to a capital city invasion. They can perch quite well in the most unsuspecting locations, i.e. in the middle of guards in a keep where people may even go AFK.

 

But in SWTOR? No way. There's no "outdoor equivalent" area with any score, points, gear or anything. You just gank level 25s on Tattoine, some on Hoth but that's like 2-3 guys up for ganking over a whole server of players.

So where do those "rogues" have to play? In relatively small areas and they must play nicely with location-constrained objectives. So in the end we have to gravitate around pylons, it's hard to catch unaware people in places they expect to be attacked.

 

TLDR: our model works in many MMOs but in SWTOR there's just no use-case for us.

In WoW and other games, "rogues" have a PvE and sometimes PvP spec made on huge sustained damage losing the CCs, but not in SWTOR.

 

So we are a fairly well designed fish... out of his water.

So are you advocating no stealth no pvp?....because you cannot give all classes the same DPS and similar defensive cool downs but only two stealth.

Oh lol. The best burster in the game and one of best def cd-s, best single-target controls want a buff(deception). Lol. I don't want to read more.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of 'buff deception' but for kicks, what is your take on the worst spec in the game which is sadness?

So are you advocating no stealth no pvp?....because you cannot give all classes the same DPS and similar defensive cool downs but only two stealth.

I am "advocating" that since outdoor PvP (the natural terrain for sins) has utterly failed, we need the class tweaked to deal with the PvP content the devs make. If they create small arenas where stealth is a non factor and remove nodes making tank spec pointless, what's left of us?

So your argument is stealth DPS should be able to stand toe to toe with non stealth, even when the stealth class entered the fight out of stealth?......if they are equal without stealth, how can giving one stealth and not the other keep them equal?.......

 

Shadow tanks in pvp pretty much might as well not have stealth if they are tanking, tanking means drawing attention to yourself and holding it, or at least diverting some damage to yourself to protect others. Stealthing works the opposite. Honestly from a pvp perspective a stealth tank seems like a killer thing to design right, either it does not work or it is completely op. imagine a tank who could stay stealth yet taunt and guard successfully....it would be brutal. Maybe shadow tanks should get a traint that gives them more damage reduction in exchange for their ability to stealth.....

Deception Assassin are the best 1v1 class in the game. And a skilled assassin wins most of them without stealth even. If that is what you are on about, fine, but pvp especially non objective based pvp is not 1v1. Even in objective based pvp regular wzs you hardly get one 1v1s mostly with ninja capping and node guarding. So it is a mini game in the macro game of a wz. In ranked 8v8 you can be sure the off nodes are guarded by a stealther as well, since it would be stupid to do otherwise, so the only really 1v1s in those matches are between stealthers...

but the 1v1 will play even less of a role in arenas, and so does stealth which is a 1v1 boost.

Both Deception and Concealment are single target burst specs designed for 1v1. Concealment is already in such a horrible place that even in normals you end up frustrated very often, because if you dont crit you hit like a nuddle and have about the survivablity of an unbubbled sage, just that you have into melee to do any damage. Nerfing Deception to the ground as was done with Concealment would render stealth DPS a non factor in SWTOR, with Arenas already pointing in that direction.

The second paragraph makes me wonder whether you know much about the class or how guard works. You practically can't stay in stealth when guarding somebody, since guard transfers part of the damage. That mean you as the assassin tank take damage, and if a stealther takes damage he gets knocked out of stealth. And if you taunt somebody you get unstealthed as well. The only situation where assassin tanks really have a larger benefit from stealth is node guarding. Since for a tanking class they do a nice amount of damage, they are perfect not guards. But tanking a wz like a jugg could would be pointless, since for a tank you are too squishy in comparison.

The only stealth spec that can make use of stealth in open fire massively is the operative healer, without anyone doubting the OP PVP healing class. Despite the free instant emergency heals you can spam below 30% health combat stealth provide the "oh ****" CD, that can keep you and your team alive when you are focused. Playing this class I can ironically say the only class that really can reliably cause you massive troubles are dps assassins. Taming them down more, would actually make Operative healing even more overpowered

I am "advocating" that since outdoor PvP (the natural terrain for sins) has utterly failed, we need the class tweaked to deal with the PvP content the devs make. If they create small arenas where stealth is a non factor and remove nodes making tank spec pointless, what's left of us?

If stealth in arenas is a non factor and we are balancing all classes as if it does not exist then we need to remove it for the entire game. If it stays then in non arena situations the class is op. I don't think that is the proper direction to go but it is what I get from your post.