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DPS Meters- A Elitist Guild Leader's Compromise


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Up to this point, Bioware has taken the approach of satisfying the larger (casual gamer) market segment for SWTOR in regards to DPS Meters. The casual player does not want to be compared to elitists on a regular basis and be seen as a 'noob' or called out for sustaining low dps. Simply put, this is an understandable move; however, ultimately the pressure from the more hardcore 1-5% will become overwhelming and a compromise will need to be achieved.

 

As a guild leader and raid leader of a hardcore 5/5NM PvE guild I can develop a general idea of who is pulling their weight in raids. Indeed it is easy to track simple frequency statistics such as "who eats what when/where" in a fight - paper+pencil table ftw! One thing I would like is a better understanding of who has their rotation down/ how their dps compares overall to the guild. I know people dont enjoy the pressure (unless hardcore gamers) of constantly pushing meters on ops, but could we atleast get a "target dummy" where I can essentially have a member go to test their dps (where i can go to test my dps) and see how best to optimize it given patch changes etc. All I'm asking for is a dummy where i can go , unload for 3min and get some basic statistics reported in a similar to warzone report fashion - ie. dps, hps, largest heal, average crit dmg, ability break(ideal of dmg/crit). In addition, it would be kinda cool to have a dummy that hits you (but while in say melee range (in a city environment) you are chain healed) for reporting defensive statistics.

 

Leading further into this: Combat Logs- Problem with them is, someone can obtain a lot of information about who eats what, dps etc. if they really wanted to- takes a lot more effort. However, all i would like in this sense is just a report thats like

 

Baliso has died- Final (Death) Blow : Annihilator's Storm Barrage- 7345 Damage (2002) Overkill.

 

This allows a raid member to know their cause of death and fix it next run. It also lets me know on fights like Bone in KP why a member suddenly just drops to a random 30k mechanic (on full rakata tank?).

 

Hope this gets taken into consideration. Let me know what you guys think!

 

Cheers,

 

Baliso

Anchorhead

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Good post.

 

One "concern" I have is that combat logs will make the playerbase aware of large class balance discrepancies. I severely doubt that class DPS is well-balanced; we just don't have a good way to measure it yet.

 

I think we all know classes are slightly imbalanced you're right though they are probably slightly afraid that by providing this confirmation it will further the complaints on this issue

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Up to this point, Bioware has taken the approach of satisfying the larger (casual gamer) market segment for SWTOR in regards to DPS Meters.

 

I stopped reading right here because it's not true. BW didn't take a high and mighty approach to damage meters in game, they didn't get them done in time to ship for christmas. They'll be in the game eventually.

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I stopped reading right here because it's not true. BW didn't take a high and mighty approach to damage meters in game, they didn't get them done in time to ship for christmas. They'll be in the game eventually.

 

You didn't stop reading there. You read the whole thing. Because it was a well written non-QQ post about an issue you clearly have an opinion on. Every time someone says they stopped reading, they're just looking for attention or something dumb.

 

So stop saying stupid ****.

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I stopped reading right here because it's not true. BW didn't take a high and mighty approach to damage meters in game, they didn't get them done in time to ship for christmas. They'll be in the game eventually.

 

They are essentially already implemented in Warzones - combat is logged, and reported. Enough said. If they wanted to implement them in PvE they would have, it was not a question of time constraints or lack of corporate resources.

Edited by Baliso
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As a Guild officer and Ops leader, I'm really becoming displeased with the lack of combat log, DPS meter, and Threat meter; especially as more and more members of my Guild become Ops-ready, and as we continue progressing through content.

 

Tools like Omen and Recount are really invaluable, and even necessary for the purposes of being able to get a good, accurate look of the whole picture--so to speak. Frankly, not having these things makes my job all the more difficult. Who know how much DPS, HPS, or Threat generation we're currently lacking because we have no legit way to min/max and optimize ourselves and our group composition.

 

I'm really getting tired of seeing the naysayers QQing about 'elitist' this and that; as if that argument, assuming it even qualifies as one, holds any substantial weight or significance in the discussion. As it stands now, I'm left having to constantly monitor what little information the current UI decides to give me, and form a speculative opinion on that information to the best of my ability. On top of this, I'm managing the Ops group, detailing strats, providing vocal queues, and tanking bosses at the same time. In short, BW is just making my life more difficult that it needs to be--and a few simple additions (which are basically STANDARD fare for MMOs these days) could improve my experience, and the experience of my Ops/Guild.

 

Honestly, there's no reason these kinds of tools shouldn't have been available from day one. Overall, I'm becoming rather dissatisfied with BW's seemingly illogical decision making as it relates to many aspects of the game, and this is just another example.

Edited by Atrox
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As a Guild officer and Ops leader, I'm really becoming displeased with the lack of combat log, DPS meter, and Threat meter; especially as more and more members of my Guild become Ops-ready, and as we continue progressing through content.

 

Tools like Omen and Recount are really invaluable, and even necessary for the purposes of being able to get a good, accurate look of the whole picture--so to speak. Frankly, not having these things makes my job all the more difficult. Who know how much DPS, HPS, or Threat generation we're currently lacking because we have no legit way to min/max and optimize ourselves and our group composition.

 

I'm really getting tired of seeing the naysayers QQing about 'elitist' this and that; as if that argument, assuming it even qualifies as one, holds any substantial weight or significance in the discussion. As it stands now, I'm left having to constantly monitor what little information the current UI decides to give me, and form a speculative opinion on that information to the best of my ability. On top of this, I'm managing the Ops group, detailing strats, providing vocal queues, and tanking bosses at the same time. In short, BW is just making my life more difficult that it needs to be--and a few simple additions (which are basically STANDARD fare for MMOs these days) could improve my experience, and the experience of my Ops/Guild.

 

Honestly, there's no reason these kinds of tools shouldn't have been available from day one. Overall, I'm becoming rather dissatisfied with BW's seemingly illogical decision making as it relates to many aspects of the game, and this is just another example.

 

I agree, and as an elitist gamer as well as a market strategist I can understand both sides of the coin on the issue of addons and meters. I for one, am not asking for addons, I am not a avid fan of addons as they open the game to increased botting, mindless gameplay etc; however, at this point I am looking for bioware to make some kind of statement highlighting where this issue is going (not a "were looking into it") and come to some form of compromise. [see original post] .

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+1

 

I quite sure that the classes are unbalance and a dpsmeter will just show how much unbalance it is.

 

^ This.

 

I agree very strongly. I believe that Bioware knows there are many, many bugs with abilities, which therefore cause class imbalances, and until they can get them worked out, they don't want people to have hard numbers. It is obvious that they're collecting the data, because you can see some of it when you hover over characters in the PVP results screen.

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If Bioware implements a combat log and addon support, all these issues can be addressed by the modding community.

 

There's no reason for Bioware to spend development resources on a DPS meter, threat meter, etc. After seven years, WoW still doesn't have these integrated into the game by Blizzard. These are all mods by the community.

 

I would rather see them fix the ability delay than see my threat

Edited by namespace
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You didn't stop reading there. You read the whole thing. Because it was a well written non-QQ post about an issue you clearly have an opinion on. Every time someone says they stopped reading, they're just looking for attention or something dumb.

 

So stop saying stupid ****.

 

No I really did stop reading there. Now I have gone back and read it.

 

It's the same basic stuff myself and others have said about a hundred times about why we need damage meters/combat logs. It's nothing new. However, it's still based on the premise of the first line, that they CHOSE to not put them in for reasons other than "Oh crap it's not done and we need to ship the game to please our EA overlords".

 

They're not catering to casuals, they rushed their product out the door. Many "casuals" want damage meters and combat logs too. The term for people who don't want them is "badies".

 

There's no need to continue to lobby them for something they've said they'll add.

Edited by Helagoth
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You want a simple, viable solution, enable a dps/threat meter that is optional and only usable in ops, and does not work unless enabled before a fight. Now heres the catch and the simplest answer to all your problems. DO NOT ALLOW A COPY/PASTE FUNCTION. The biggest issues in my experience from WoW would be raid/party leader, hey you suck, post meters and everyone votes to kick the "noob". Its one thing for someone to say you suck and heres why, spam the meters in general because you can. Its entirely another for someone to say you suck and have nothing to back up their words other then my dmg meter says this... does it, prove it?...

 

Another option would, make it a guild perk only usable when an op/fp consists of 75% guild members.

 

I personally would love a dmg meter, not to flame other people but to simply better myself. I dont even think it needs to be specific in terms of abilities, I would just like to know that if I do 1000 dps on boss x on date y, I want to know what I do next time to make sure I am constantly improving and if Im not it forces me to figure out why, make adjustments and try it agian.

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If Bioware implements a combat log and addon support, all these issues can be addressed by the modding community.

 

There's no reason for Bioware to spend development resources on a DPS meter, threat meter, etc. After seven years, WoW still doesn't have these integrated into the game by Blizzard. These are all mods by the community.

 

I would rather see them fix the ability delay than see my threat

 

 

The amount of effort to implement addon support and a combat log is approximately equal to the amount of effort needed to make basic UI customization options and a damage meter.

 

Probably less actually, since the game's engine is what does not support addon's, and adding buttons that "move buff bar xxx units" is pretty simple compared to "create API hooks that allow a third party to dynamically modify the client". Making the numbers show up on your screen in a box is a 2 hour job for an intern, it's getting the info to the box that's tricky.

 

Blizzard's brilliance in their game with this regard was that they designed their UI from the ground up to be modable, thereby taking themselves off the hook for needing to be involved in any of it. They freed themselves up to work on other stuff and just let the nerds fix stuff themselves. Redesigning the "under the hood" stuff in SWTOR to work with mods is a pretty huge deal.

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This post is not designed to be a typical battle of pro's/con's for addons. It is to provide an alternative compromise to address the somewhat adversarial interests of Casual and hardcore gamers. Notice, I did not say I wanted an addon- only some form of a measure.
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This post is not designed to be a typical battle of pro's/con's for addons. It is to provide an alternative compromise to address the somewhat adversarial interests of Casual and hardcore gamers. Notice, I did not say I wanted an addon- only some form of a measure.

 

Yes but in doing so you continue the stereotyping of casual and hardcore in a way that is not accurate. Casual gamers can be good, hardcore can be bad, both can want or not want damage meters. Saying "casuals want this" or "hardcores want that" does not advance any kind of discussion.

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Yes but in doing so you continue the stereotyping of casual and hardcore in a way that is not accurate. Casual gamers can be good, hardcore can be bad, both can want or not want damage meters. Saying "casuals want this" or "hardcores want that" does not advance any kind of discussion.

 

As is always done in market segmentation/classification , I am defining hardcore vs casuals in a way that stereotypes the typical behaviours and 'interests' of said group. There are always outliers or people that dont fit a particular schema or stereotype. But this classification is used for general comparison purposes. And I use it because I can guarantee you it is similar to how Bioware views their customer market segments.

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The amount of effort to implement addon support and a combat log is approximately equal to the amount of effort needed to make basic UI customization options and a damage meter.

 

Probably less actually, since the game's engine is what does not support addon's, and adding buttons that "move buff bar xxx units" is pretty simple compared to "create API hooks that allow a third party to dynamically modify the client". Making the numbers show up on your screen in a box is a 2 hour job for an intern, it's getting the info to the box that's tricky.

 

Blizzard's brilliance in their game with this regard was that they designed their UI from the ground up to be modable, thereby taking themselves off the hook for needing to be involved in any of it. They freed themselves up to work on other stuff and just let the nerds fix stuff themselves. Redesigning the "under the hood" stuff in SWTOR to work with mods is a pretty huge deal.

 

So, if this is true, Bioware implementing an engine with no addon support was a giant mistake. Addons and community support can increase the life-span of your game by years. I really don't see a company like Bioware making that kind of mistake.

 

Although, the game does seem like a Mass Effect MMO sprinkled with Star Wars skins

Edited by namespace
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I love this idea. When I think about the way I played WoW towards the end, I believe you can trace many of the game's flaws back to the availability and prevalence of meters. They're an excellent tool when used correctly and applied to the proper purpose, but in the hands of the unintelligent masses, they ruined a lot of the game.

 

If you take the meters out of the instance and put them elsewhere, the elitists and people who care enough can still use them for their proper function, but it doesn't subject the rest of us to a bunch of kids who think that "moar deeps" is going to compensate for lack of communication, poor use of cooldowns, and failure to adhere to fight mechanics.

 

+1 to the OP.

Edited by Caldus
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