Are you hitting the same mob the tank is? are you bursting out the door and getting aggro in the first 5 seconds? then give the tank a few more seconds to grab aggro. is it happening at regular intervals? perhaps your not using your de-aggro ability as you should.

Most dps stare at their cds and lack the mental capacity to stand out of fire or even have their threat dump on their bar. with target of target and marks they still manage to hit the wrong target.

Most dps stare at their cds and lack the mental capacity to stand out of fire or even have their threat dump on their bar. with target of target and marks they still manage to hit the wrong target.

I wont argue that man

Still...I don't think that MMO's should always cater to the lowest common denominator, and the threat in this game is evidence of that. on the flip side, SWtOR has some scaling with mobs group that allows for certain mobs to be pulled and the DPS survive. Which means that the group of 6 mobs you are staring at hoping the DPS give you a chance to mark first are in reality only 2-3 that you really have to worry about.

You have an agro reduction mechanic..if you are stealing agro from a Tank in PvE you BOTH stink..

What aggro reduction mechanic do Madness Assassins have, aside from the one on a 3-minute cooldown?

DPS should never have more threat than the tank on a single target. That's just bad tanking (which I have seen a lot)...

The only time a dps can outthreat me is when there are multiple targets and everyone is just attacking whoever they want.

Why: Because of the taunt mechanics... A tank can just spam that single target taunt and double his aggro...

What aggro reduction mechanic do Madness Assassins have, aside from the one on a 3-minute cooldown?

A threat reduction is still a threat reduction.

I actually disagree that DPS has to use their aggro reduction on cooldown.

I play a Balance sage so I get a little bit extra aggro with heals and even on fights like Firebrand and Stormcaller where I am in melee range, I never pull aggro after the first ~20secs or so, even though I never use my aggro reduction. I'm usually top dps in the ops and we've downed the first two bosses in HM EC on 8 man so not getting aggro shouldn't be because I have low dps.

I think the key is having a tank that knows the correct timing to use taunt. Taunt works a bit differently in this game than in WoW so I think that might have some people confused if they are switching over. But I think a tank who has a good sense of his or her rotation and the fluctuations in aggro shouldn't need dps to use aggro drop to hold aggro.

(Also, 8 man HM EC has some pretty tight enrage timers - I would really rather use that global cooldown to squeeze out some extra damage having once wiped with 433 hp left on the boss.)

I actually disagree that DPS has to use their aggro reduction on cooldown.

 

(Also, 8 man HM EC has some pretty tight enrage timers - I would really rather use that global cooldown to squeeze out some extra damage having once wiped with 433 hp left on the boss.)

From the perspective of a Tank, I agree. I'm a big supporter of DPS using their tools to mitigate threat, but the way threat works in this game I don't think it's necessary. tanks using their threat tools (i.e. taunts) are enough to maintain threat appropriately. if a specific situation calls for it, sure (like you have one DPS that is regularly pulling, and the necessity of full bore DPS is not required). but outside of those situations. I don't see any reason why a DPS should have to do that.

I regularly run Ops with our guilds top marauder, and he's the only player that challenges my threat production on a regular basis. but frequent use of my taunt pretty much negates that as an issue.

If you're taking agro during an ops encounter, you're doing it wrong (assuming, of course, that your tank isn't a derp-de-derp). Several DPS classes have a threat reducing ability, it should be used on cooldown, no exceptions. If you don't have one, you have to watch what you're doing and not over-agro. This is a skill that I have noticed many DPS players either failed to learn or have forgotten over their time playing MMOs. DPS players need to pace themselves, it's a balancing act and it adds to the challenge of the game when tanks and DPS have to work together to manage threat.

 

If you want to pull agro and flex your epeen, go for it, but I don't need a threat meter to tell you how much dps you do while dead.

I have seen this in my raid group, as a sniper myself I almost never pull aggro. But I also use my threat drop on CD. We have a merc who never uses his but rarely pulls threat, we have a sorc who pulls threat often. And refuses to use his threat drops, he always points out it that it drops such little threat there is no point to use it.

Its really only been an issue with a new assassin tank we are running with now.

Just to give an update, as my damage has increased and our guild has gotten more geared and has now switched to hard mode ops, I have stopped pulling aggro on single-target fights as much (the same applies to single-target boss fights in hard mode flashpoints). I'm not sure what changed. I still don't really use force cloak to drop threat actively. I use it as more of an oh crap button to prevent a death in case I mess up or unavoidable AoE damage on me overwhelms the healers.

Maybe the original issue was just tank gear? This issue before ocurred with all of our tanks, assassin, juggernaut, and powertech.

(Also, 8 man HM EC has some pretty tight enrage timers - I would really rather use that global cooldown to squeeze out some extra damage having once wiped with 433 hp left on the boss.)

Your threat-reduction is off the GCD and can be used while casting FL for example.

Just to give an update, as my damage has increased and our guild has gotten more geared and has now switched to hard mode ops, I have stopped pulling aggro on single-target fights as much (the same applies to single-target boss fights in hard mode flashpoints). I'm not sure what changed. I still don't really use force cloak to drop threat actively. I use it as more of an oh crap button to prevent a death in case I mess up or unavoidable AoE damage on me overwhelms the healers.

 

Maybe the original issue was just tank gear? This issue before ocurred with all of our tanks, assassin, juggernaut, and powertech.

Vanish =/= threat drop

As my gear has gotten better, on some single-target boss fights, while with various different tanks (assassins, powertechs, and juggernauts), I sometimes steal aggro from tanks midway through the fight. I'm not talking about fights with aggro drops or weird mechanics.

 

In WoW this was a sign of 1) a very high damage character as compared to the tank or 2) a tank with poor threat.

 

What do you guys think? Is it OK to use this as a measure that my damage is pretty good? I'm trying to find some meaningful ways of gauging my personal damage since I've played tanks and healers in prior MMOs, so it's pretty cool to try something new. Thanks.

You forgot 3) a dpsers lack of understanding threat and how to produce high damage with out producing high threat.

you have some attacks that create more threat then other. A good dpser is going to understand these things and adjust their rotation to not use them as much while at the same time still keeping a high level of dps overall. Sounds like you might be doing high amounts of burst damage when you really need to be doing high level of sustained damage.

could also just be a bad tank but if this is happening with a lot of different tanks then we have to look at our selves.

In WoW this was a sign of 1) a very high damage character as compared to the tank or 2) a tank with poor threat.

Well I played Wow for 6 years, and EQ for 4 years and various other MMO's inbetween and in none of these games did pulling aggro make you " Leet Dps " it made you Stupid Dps.

ESPECIALLY not in wow where Damage output was designed to go over threat, a moderate to high Dps could pull off of Most tanks.

I played one of the best warlocks around back in mine day and I prided myself on consitently having the highest dps in every raid/group and hardly ever pulling aggro. And people respected me for it.

It has always been my opinion that threat is actually More of a Dps responsibility then a Tank responsibility, especially in Games like wow which had some pretty insane raid mechanics, and as both an experienced tank and dps, I can tell you on some of those encounters the last thing you care about is the idiot dps Lawling about how high his " deeps" is.

Your trying your hardest to keep you and everyone else alive, waiting to interrupt that one ability that will wipe your whole raid and avoiding the gigantic AoE while Noob sauce is over in the corner spamming away with out a care in the world....

I hate the typical dps player.... Dps is a dime a Dozen.... GOOD dps is a rare commidity

Well I played Wow for 6 years, and EQ for 4 years and various other MMO's inbetween and in none of these games did pulling aggro make you " Leet Dps " it made you Stupid Dps.

 

ESPECIALLY not in wow where Damage output was designed to go over threat, a moderate to high Dps could pull off of Most tanks.

 

I played one of the best warlocks around back in mine day and I prided myself on consitently having the highest dps in every raid/group and hardly ever pulling aggro. And people respected me for it.

 

It has always been my opinion that threat is actually More of a Dps responsibility then a Tank responsibility, especially in Games like wow which had some pretty insane raid mechanics, and as both an experienced tank and dps, I can tell you on some of those encounters the last thing you care about is the idiot dps Lawling about how high his " deeps" is.

 

Your trying your hardest to keep you and everyone else alive, waiting to interrupt that one ability that will wipe your whole raid and avoiding the gigantic AoE while Noob sauce is over in the corner spamming away with out a care in the world....

 

I hate the typical dps player.... Dps is a dime a Dozen.... GOOD dps is a rare commidity

Yeah whatever brah

And refuses to use his threat drops, he always points out it that it drops such little threat there is no point to use it.

I think the aggro droppers used to be bugged awhile ago so that it was only dropping .25% as opposed to the 25% aggro drop that it does now. If your guildmate still insists this is not worth it, counter with the fact that the aggro drop is off the GCD, so there is no point NOT to use it.

With the increase to tank threat generation in 1.3, aggro droppers aren't as important, but they still should be used. Even with the threat buffs, don't forget that there are min-maxed DPSers running around with fully augmented gear. When the stars all align and they get a bunch of crits with their heavy hitters right after popping their adrenals, the tank will still lose aggro and be forced to taunt. This may have saved your butt for the time being, but you may have endangered the raid if a tank swap is quickly coming up.

Being an elite DPS isn't just about knowing your rotation and how to gear your character. Part of it is knowing the best point to use your aggro dropper in the opening moments of the fight so you don't endanger yourself or the raid.

I think the aggro droppers used to be bugged awhile ago so that it was only dropping .25% as opposed to the 25% aggro drop that it does now. If your guildmate still insists this is not worth it, counter with the fact that the aggro drop is off the GCD, so there is no point NOT to use it.

 

With the increase to tank threat generation in 1.3, aggro droppers aren't as important, but they still should be used. Even with the threat buffs, don't forget that there are min-maxed DPSers running around with fully augmented gear. When the stars all align and they get a bunch of crits with their heavy hitters right after popping their adrenals, the tank will still lose aggro and be forced to taunt. This may have saved your butt for the time being, but you may have endangered the raid if a tank swap is quickly coming up.

 

Being an elite DPS isn't just about knowing your rotation and how to gear your character. Part of it is knowing the best point to use your aggro dropper in the opening moments of the fight so you don't endanger yourself or the raid.

since opening parts of the fights are rarely the most hectic, I burn all my cooldowns and rack up my highest burst rotation. the tank gives me about 3 seconds past pull to wrap up my burst then taunts, with this amount of threat buffed by 30% from the taunt, there's never a threat issue again.

Well I played Wow for 6 years, and EQ for 4 years and various other MMO's inbetween and in none of these games did pulling aggro make you " Leet Dps " it made you Stupid Dps.

 

ESPECIALLY not in wow where Damage output was designed to go over threat, a moderate to high Dps could pull off of Most tanks.

 

I played one of the best warlocks around back in mine day and I prided myself on consitently having the highest dps in every raid/group and hardly ever pulling aggro. And people respected me for it.

 

It has always been my opinion that threat is actually More of a Dps responsibility then a Tank responsibility, especially in Games like wow which had some pretty insane raid mechanics, and as both an experienced tank and dps, I can tell you on some of those encounters the last thing you care about is the idiot dps Lawling about how high his " deeps" is.

 

Your trying your hardest to keep you and everyone else alive, waiting to interrupt that one ability that will wipe your whole raid and avoiding the gigantic AoE while Noob sauce is over in the corner spamming away with out a care in the world....

 

I hate the typical dps player.... Dps is a dime a Dozen.... GOOD dps is a rare commidity

Indeed ... long time in EQ .. never cared much for WoW...

'Being a wizard (in this case DPS class of your choice) isn't about massive damage and nuking things, it's all about threat management.'

Of course in those days the first time you pulled to much aggro (threat/hate etc.) you were dead.

Taking aggro from the tank is the last thing you want to do. You might think "ha ha! I'm doing a lot of damage, look at me!" But what you're realy doing is forcing the healer to change priorities and heal a 'less efficient' target, forcing the tank to go into 'overdrive' to get aggro back, and in general hurting your group.

You want to do as much damage as you can, while maintaining an aggro level less then that of your tank. Pulling aggro doesn't make you 'l33t', it means you screwed up.

Indeed ... long time in EQ .. never cared much for WoW...

 

'Being a wizard (in this case DPS class of your choice) isn't about massive damage and nuking things, it's all about threat management.'

 

Of course in those days the first time you pulled to much aggro (threat/hate etc.) you were dead.

 

Taking aggro from the tank is the last thing you want to do. You might think "ha ha! I'm doing a lot of damage, look at me!" But what you're realy doing is forcing the healer to change priorities and heal a 'less efficient' target, forcing the tank to go into 'overdrive' to get aggro back, and in general hurting your group.

 

You want to do as much damage as you can, while maintaining an aggro level less then that of your tank. Pulling aggro doesn't make you 'l33t', it means you screwed up.

Couldn't agree more all your doing is complicating things for your group, just tonight a sentinel kept doing it. So I let him die twice and made sure his HP stayed around 50% through the trash... that put a stop to it!