Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

You want to embrace the glory days like the rest of us ?

Then keep your eye on ArcheAge "Next Gen Sandbox MMO, made with Cry Engine 4" Click Here

Only game I have seen in a long time that makes me feel the excitement I did playing Ultima Online and Pre Cu - SWG.

I dunno, I think it's because everything is handed to us on a plate now and there's very little in the way of free thinking, it's more like "You have to go here, you then have to go here" and so on, even GW2 does that to an extent. The sand box element has been pretty much removed, as is the quality of the endgame is most recent mmos, the leveling process is good but once you hit the top you run into a brick wall.

Edit: It's why I think games like Planetside 2 and Eve do well, you can do what you want, there's no set path. Once you have a set path the element of surprise and the wow factor goes out of the window because you all have the same experience, you all reach the same level and you all become disappointed with the end game content because it's all the same for everyone.

SWG was my first MMO and it was huge. I simply loved the huge battles outside Anchorhead and/or Bestine. No coms, no warzones, no gear to collect - just lots of FUN.

WoW changed the face of MMOs, imo and not for the better. Developers are too scared to be different and havent yet asked the question 'what will draw people away from WoW to OUR MMO?'. SWTOR didnt ask it, just offered up essentially the same kind of experience.

GW2 is pretty vast but combat is stale and the WvW is good but is essentially a zerg fest. I doubt if we will ever see a stunning MMO ever again

GW2 is pretty vast but combat is stale and the WvW is good but is essentially a zerg fest. I doubt if we will ever see a stunning MMO ever again

WvW in GW2 is nice for some time but then you got like 2 maps and no real objectives or reward for doing it. You don't get to new map if you win or anything. Also since you can switch server practically any time you want, competition between servers is pointless, even if populations were evenly matched by some miracle.

It's basicly problem with every mmo I know, even EvE-o. Everything is so care-free. Just get together 50 guys, go bash bunch of newbies (for no obvious reason than having guild event that night) and chest bash yourself for being so good and awesome guild. It doesn't really feel that you actually achieved something.

Very good post, made think for a good while.

My first MMO was Anarchy Online, and as many here, i still think fondly of it. The world was huge, so many different classes, so much to do. I could login and explore the world, fighting and running from mobs, teaming up with players at hunting spots or simply going to town a get a mission from the terminals. Actually the only pvp i ever did was in the tower wars. I still consider Bureaucrat and Trader the best classes i ever played in any mmo.

There has been good mmo's since then but they always lack something. WoW was fun but the endgame annoyd me, Rift was maleable with the soul system but lacked story, Swtor has great story but lacks everywhere else, Age of Conan has a good combat system but replayability was poor, etc.

It will be very difficult to get that amazement back, but sometimes i start thinking of mixing games together, for example the classes of AO with the story of Swtor, the world of wow and rift, etc. I know it will never happen but it's fun thinking about it.

That is the problem with the MMO genre compared to other PC game genres. Every other game type gets bigger, harder, and more complex as it evolves, MMO's do the opposite. They get smaller, easier, and less complicated.

Really?

Would you say that the new Medal of Honor games are getting bigger, harder and more complex?

In general, FPS games have been rather stagnant for a long while now. The only thing improving is the graphics. Size and content are generally the same.

Same thing with "mainstream" RTS games as well. And most other genres as well.

Yeah I hear you OP. Sense of collective wonder is gone and will never return. Back when WoW was new, it marked first time significant majority of it's players had ever properly played an MMORPG. Millions of players were busy being :O:::O!! about all the same things at the same time. It makes the experience awesome. Significant portion of people who still play TOR in 2013 are veterans off one MMO or another. There is no collective wonder left a WoW clone could offer to any community.

And yes yes WoW most certainly was not the 1st MMORPG. It was first MMO for significant majority of people who began playing it around 2004-2006 or so. That is what counts. By time you (by you I mean like 65% of playerbase) have gotten to SWTOR you've seen a wow clone or two already. Or at least, WoW itself. This results in a situation where you see, say Tython for 1st time and instead of going OMG you go " mehh wth is this terrible UI sigh wish I had Bartender4 and Xperl to make this look like a proper interface ok fine whatever i guess i go pick few quests now so i can leave this tutorial planet"

If world TOR offers hadn't been so incredibly stale and if engine didn't do it's best to give 1:1 functionality of vanilla WoW, this.. anti-shcok effect would have been milder.

That is the problem with the MMO genre compared to other PC game genres. Every other game type gets bigger, harder, and more complex as it evolves, MMO's do the opposite. They get smaller, easier, and less complicated.

ROFL. You don't even have to play modern games to know this is miles off from reality. Source: literally any modern Michael Bay movie of an FPS out there. Single player RPGs get smaller, easier and less complicated as well. I'd suggest you compare Dragon Age 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 but I just got too depressed for mentioning them in same sentence to really expand on the matter.

More or less every genre that offers some room for getting "streamlined" (read: dumbed down) is going through just that. Has been the case since PS2.

Final Fantasy 11 I miss this one quite a bit. There was so much to do in this game granted at the time I played getting to 75 took forever and was a grind but it was great.

Another awesome moment was camping NMs that only spawned once every 24 or even 72 hours. Yes some of this sucked but it made some since of accomplishment. Getting to end game and going to sky for the first time killing gods actually having stun rotations to kill certain things.

Actually having support classes I really miss that dynamic and groups of six was a lot more fun I actually like being in agroup killing stuff with endless chains to get experience rather than doing the same quests/planets over and over again.

Fending off beastman attacks, training mobs to kill the Afk bazaars outside of Jeuno, and the crafting wow it actually felt like you did something by capping a particular skill and making items was always fun would that item crit break or even worse crit break and you lose that ultra rare crafting mat.

The biggest thing This game lacks for me is seeing those rare items you would see in FFXI from the nms and the multiple ways of obtaining different end game gear and the robust crafting system.

I know what you talking about BBP

 

Im on my last legs here to be honest

 

Seems things went downhill after DAoC released.

DAoC was the FINAL game of the old era where logging in was fun and exciting.

 

I was reading up on the new Mark Jacobs game (wont play it as its RVR Focused so hes making mistake of forcing PVP on everyone all the time, and that never works out well in long run) and allot of what he says in his "principles" are bang on the money about the genre and how its less then what it was.

 

http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

 

I know in DAoC we would log in and have our individual goals and desires but then we also had our guild agenda (could earn guild points to help defend our frontier), and after that we had our Realm Agenda and it made for a awsome community of players. It wasnt just mindless warzones and OPS, rinse and repeat.

 

In EQ you formed connections with those PUGs you joined between fights.

You made real friends based on personalities rather then so called game skill

In SWG and UO and EQ2 (and even DAoC) you had the house decorating appeal where you would spend hours and hours and hours designing your home just the way you want so you could show it off to others

 

In fact, when I look back at all the MMORPGs that came before WOW, they all have one thing in common.

The games (directly or indirectly) focused on community aspects and interaction fo personalities.

4 people in a group, banging buttons, not speaking was NOT interaction

Interaction was actually conversing and interacting with each other.

 

Ive long asked for Pazaak and Swoop racing as thats just a no brainer activity to add that acheives the social aspect missing from TOR and other race to finish MMORPGs that came out since WOW and after.

But even though there is a huge demand for the content

There doesnt seem to be a desire developer wise to add it

 

But yeah, for me the wonderous of the older MMORPGs was the social aspects of the games.

 

Today games are just cut and paste shells with really no heart or soul to them.

 

Go in, run dailies (PVE, OPS, PVP), and log having spoken to maybe 5 people your entire time in game.

Unless of course your on guild voice chat but then your still not really interacting with game community, just a very very very small sliver of it.

 

Modern games just lack social aspect that was present in all the older MMORPGs.

 

Im really holding out hope ESO will deliver the older experience.

Sounds like they will but we wont know for sure till we actually try game

But on paper it seems "they get it"

I agree 100% with your post. People like to say that it is because it was new to us and that we are looking through rose colored glasses for why we enjoyed those games. That may be for some other people. But for myself, those things that people said sucked about those games back in the day (corpse runs, taking a couple of months to level your character, needing a 20+ man group to beat a heroic, being dependant on other classes/people to craft/aquire things in-game) are the things that drew me to those games and are what I loved about them. Just like you said, these games that came after WoW are just only about log in, get loot, get off. No community interaction. No dependency on others. Nothing social about it at all.

For me, this is my last MMO (and I don't even really consider this an MMO). I'm going to try out The Repopulation, but I won't hold my breath out for it. The whole genre has changed, and for me, it is for the worse. Old heads like me and you aren't what the developers are looking for anymore. People who have a long term loyalty to the game. They want the fly by nighters now.

I started my online play with a modem on a BBS, many years ago, then I moved in to graphic online game with Meridian59, then Eq, I have felt a certain amazement with almost every game I played for years, watched technology change and new game mechanics come to life,of a new industry, it was a grand time nothing was a given, and yes at times it was frustrating, but the draw was there to keep playing these games. Lived through countless bugs and patches and hotfixes.

I think what I miss most is that my toon no longer feels like it lives in the world it has no real reason to be there I want to live in the world not just play through it, as times have changed and games have changed these companies seem to make these games games for a quick buck and not for long term enjoyment.

My very first MMO: Horizons: Empire of Istaria.

A very beautiful and well done MMO. The crafting was very nice, and you could gain levels in the crafting, making moreand more stuff. Your guild could build it's own town purely by CRAFTING.

Fly as a Dragon over the map, cool. And only dragons could fly!

Very nice!

And Imoved on to WOW and others...

No one's making MMOs for the general love of it any more, they are making cookie cutter mmos with a twist.

Wrong.

There is ArcheAge.

Dang. There are some great replies in this thread. For what it is worth, I am not looking for a new game. That is not what I meant for this to be about. What I am trying to do here is think back to what made our most special moments in MMOs (present or past) and that if we could play developer for a day, what bits of that awesomeness could we bring to SWTOR?

I think bigger and more open worlds is one thing. For my example, I will use EQ and EQ2. Norrath is huge. When you come to a lake or ocean, you can swim in it and more often than not, there are things to be found under that water. It is more living space for the NPCs. More opportunities for story and lore.

I think that SWTOR has a lot of potential for things like this with Jedi Ruins and scarred battlefields with hulks of destroyed ships, tanks and other vehicles. Yes, we do get informational entries via Datacrons or Lore objects, but I think these things could be more.

Spaces usable for players for roleplay or other socialization (complete with more usable seating). I think back to SWG to the Jedi and Sith temples on Yavin. They were hardly used but they were still awesome. Some of our story instances would make great stages for roleplay. Many of these places are extremely well put together. It is a shame to see them once, then never again.

I am just rambling now, but I just think that there are things that can be done with the play space that can help. Thanks again guys for making this a great thread.

Another Wow was my first nerd here.

I remember when I got an epic item for the first time, a lvl 57 wand Crimson Shocker when I was 59 my very first MC raid. I felt like I had just hit the raiding scene, pug MC at it's finest.

Now when I get an epic item I look at its stats, think about the stat values, compare it to the blue I'm wearing and either equip it or put it on the GTN.

The magic is gone and we'll never be able to get it back.

I couldn't agree more, but you have to take one major thing into consideration. We will never see a classic sandbox style MMO ever again. I am a swg precu vet myself, and that experience was the best I will ever have gaming. We live in an age now that games like those are far too complex for the average gamer. Games now, like TOR or WoW, are directed towards casual gamers. Everything is straight forward, and easy to jump right in to end game content.

As for the pvp in this game, removing a gear gap was the final blow to the classic MMO style.

I We will never see a classic sandbox style MMO ever again.

Wrong.

ARCHEAGE - Next Gen Sandbox MMO made with Far Cry 4 Engine.

Wrong.

 

ARCHEAGE - Next Gen Sandbox MMO made with Far Cry 4 Engine.

I do love someone proving me wrong in this case. That game looks pretty cool tbh.

Wrong.

 

ARCHEAGE - Next Gen Sandbox MMO made with Far Cry 4 Engine.

Well I got pumped up for five minutes then found out that the game can only be played durring Korean hours. Also the fact that you can't play after midnight is pretty much a setback. Looks like a great game, but wouldn't be able to accomplish anything with an hour or two of gameplay a day.

I think there literally is only one thing that can bring that euphoria back that you are talking about:

Virtual MMORPGS.

Example: Sword Art Online (anime)

Though that is years away, I truly believe that only those types of games can bring back that "excitement and wonder"

What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

The newness is definitely part of it. Don't think I will ever forget the first moment logging into WoW. I'd never tried a MMO before, was completely overwhelmed, and had no idea what I was doing, but it was beautiful and huge, and I was amazed.

As for things that could bring a sense of wonder and excitement to the SWToR, I think there are a few things that would help.

- more in-world puzzles, easter eggs, and other hidden surprises.

I loved in WoW going around and click on the different books that were lying around, reading a little bit here and there. Those types of exploration prizes are fun and make the world feel more interactive.

- rare events (small, unadvertised, surprising)

The SWToR worlds feel static. Having small dynamic events would help a lot. (By small I mean an earthquake changes the landscape in an area, maybe uncovering a cave. Or a champion shows up unexpectedly and wanders through an area and then is gone again and reappears at random times.)

UO was my first mmo, but honestly I was more into playing quake and other fps then mmo's. So I really didn't get into it the same way other people did. Once I was more or less too old to compete in fps games, I turned to DAOC. DAOC and EQ more or less forced you into grouping for exp. Solo grinding at the time was mind numbingly slow unless you had a buffbot. So the social aspects of daoc really kept me going. RvR however interesting was killing the game for me, until they opened Mordred (red server). It was like UO all over again but this time I wasn't playing any FPS competatively. Mordred kept me playing DAOC for years. You were nothing without your guild on that server and the guild vs guild conflicts have been the best gaming experience I think I have ever had.

In the end, I think the social aspects of a game is what drives me to keep playing. When the games started to become too easy is when we started to lose group content. I think they need to go back to making solo gameplay less convenient.