We have somewhat lost the point(s) that the opening poster was making:-

 

To quote:-

 

"It's on this issue that I really want BW to chime in more than any other. I'm fine that not all classes are created equal in all situations. I'm fine if each happens to excel in a certain situation over the other ACs and if balance is approached from that perspective because I honestly think the game becomes more interesting. Chess is more interesting than checkers because there are different pieces that do different things, whereas in checkers every piece does the same thing (I realize this isn't the best analogy since technically queen is OP, but every analogy breaks down eventually. Use it for what it is). But I want BW to state plainly and for the record what their vision for each class, and while I'm talking crazy I'll shoot for the moon and say each SPEC, is"

 

There are a variety of reasons (see the post that is entitled 'This is what I see when I read the forums' or somthing similar) why this just will not happen. Lets consider the facts::--

 

1. The game has been nerfed continually since January.

2. Some classes have been nerfed since January.

3. The game...

ETC

 

The game playing public will take such information and just attempt to use it as justification for their own poor play. For example if Bioware say that the Sage seer should be hitting the big numbers in healing whilst the Smuggler tops up and does the stealthy bits, and Player 'A' can't hit more than 60k healing with his Sage then the game is wrong and not working etc.

 

This is what has frunstrated me most in my second experience of playing an MMORPG. In my opinion the companies listen too much to their customers rather than the opposite. I think SWTOR was a better game in January than July.

 

Thanks for starting this post and at least trying to raise the level of conversation above a continual cry for nerfs to something interesting, calm, and measured.

This is what has frunstrated me most in my second experience of playing an MMORPG. In my opinion the companies listen too much to their customers rather than the opposite. I think SWTOR was a better game in January than July..

 

 

exactly, instead of letting the player base settle into the game before swinging the nerf bat around they listened to the QQers far too early on and mucked up what was IMHO a pretty balanced game.

Now it appears these changes should be reverted yet no action has even been mentioned they are looking into.

 

which is the biggest issue and the reason GW2 is appealing to many, players will accept bugs, issues that require attention with communications from devs that they are working to give us a possibly great game to look forward to playing in a year from now..

 

But as i said above, the lights are on but no one is there to listen or respond.

More QQING L2P

 

Look who it is the guy who replies to every single thread trying to defend his class

It does apply a stun since you can't take any action while they leap to you. classified or not.

 

YOUR deffinition is different because you like that YOU can do it. If i wanted to be OP i'd roll a marauder and pretend Awe isn't overpowered for pvp.

 

Dude one to one, your only defending it because A.) you use it and hate to have to re-roll to the next FOTM. B.) you think i'm your friend because i'm actually speaking to you. (btw i'm not, and i can smell a troll)

 

Back on topic, without a class balance BEFORE the F2P goes live, people may come back, but would you stay if everything that drove you away is still there?

 

Fix the Marauder leap. Put it on resolve.

 

Reroll to FOTM? I've been a Sentinel since August, back when when Saber Ward was our only defensive CD. You're making yourself look stupid. I get stunned/knocked back in the middle of a force leap all the time.

 

It's not my definition. These are common definitions that originated from EQ. The Enchanter class had a spell called "Mesmerize", that held a target incapable and it broke on damage. This is where the name "Mezz" comes from. Only noobs classify all forms of CC as a stun.

 

Like I said, you are projecting.

 

As a bonus here is my Sentinel in Voss wearing robes no longer available in the game. So as you can see, calling me a FOTM Sentinel is rather stupid, considering I've played the class for nearly four months before launch. .

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/6hj6lc.png

Edited August 2, 2012 by Derian

Welp, it was nice while it lasted!

 

I beg to differ.

 

PS. Wall of text over 9000!

 

Well it damn well didn't start that way >=(

 

There are a variety of reasons (see the post that is entitled 'This is what I see when I read the forums' or somthing similar) why this just will not happen. Lets consider the facts::--

 

1. The game has been nerfed continually since January.

2. Some classes have been nerfed since January.

3. The game...

ETC

 

The game playing public will take such information and just attempt to use it as justification for their own poor play. For example if Bioware say that the Sage seer should be hitting the big numbers in healing whilst the Smuggler tops up and does the stealthy bits, and Player 'A' can't hit more than 60k healing with his Sage then the game is wrong and not working etc.

 

This is what has frunstrated me most in my second experience of playing an MMORPG. In my opinion the companies listen too much to their customers rather than the opposite. I think SWTOR was a better game in January than July.

 

Thanks for starting this post and at least trying to raise the level of conversation above a continual cry for nerfs to something interesting, calm, and measured.

 

Well I always knew I was shooting for the moon hoping for a dev response. In many ways I almost can't blame them. Those of us who can take what they tell us like adults, even when we don't like it would be drowned out by the vitriol (Exhibit A: This thread).

 

And I'll agree that BW has made some serious missteps in how they've approached class balance since launch. You do yourself no favors as a dev when you make big changes in patch after patch instead of sticking to very minor tweaks. I've said this, others have said this.

 

I dunno that I'd agree that the game as a whole was a better game in January, and I didn't really PVP at launch much, but from everything I hear, it was a better PVP game in January.

The ability to stealth in any spec is a powerful tool in any warzone however as winning the contested node is often about drawing defenders away to the off node and shadows do this extremely well.

 

This on Shadows.. not, that Stealth is entirely not working, but it doesn't always work "effectively" in PVP, often interrupted and broken, as soon as your even approach some thing. This happens just as much if you click on the ability to increase stealth level, or even use your so called get out of danger card, with Force Cloak. All easily broken, and interrupted. I really don't see why people think there is a problem with stealth at all, try playing a Shadow in PVP and you will understand.

This on Shadows.. not, that Stealth is entirely not working, but it doesn't always work "effectively" in PVP, often interrupted and broken, as soon as your even approach some thing. This happens just as much if you click on the ability to increase stealth level, or even use your so called get out of danger card, with Force Cloak. All easily broken, and interrupted. I really don't see why people think there is a problem with stealth at all, try playing a Shadow in PVP and you will understand.

 

Please look up.

 

That thing sailing over your head is the point.

 

(and I'll take you up on that. My shadow has been 50 for awhile. Now that my commando has the war hero relics and barrel for best performance I'm going to get in PVE without winning the roll on HM Kephess, I'm probably gonna shelve it for PVP. Shadow can offer some nice variety).

a good indication of op classes is if you hear a lot of l2p in the same context. often followed by insults. where there is smoke there usually is fire.

 

if the l2p players gather in one class, there is a reason for that. of course players picking fotm arent always the best, so even with huge advantages they lose, so thats why you often hear "play it yourself and see for yourself, than you realize were not op" (dont do that, its a lot of time just for some confirmation on st you already know)

Archangel you make some well thought out, unbiased, and intelligent points. Truely a wall of text that I didn't mind reading. I feel as though you've really nailed it when you gave the example "why should I bring <insert class> to ranked warzones, and are correct by saying that there should be reasons for every single class. I'm sorry to see you're putting your commando on the shelf when it comes to pvp, and I wish you the best of luck on your shadow. I seem to be in roughly the same boat, as I play a balance sage and find that when the forementioned question is asked the answer for dps sage seems to be on par with the answer you receive for your commando. Yes we can be useful, but we don't have a role that can't be better filled by one of the other dps class options available. So cheers to you man, hopefully BW will find the time to rework class balance and class roles in group pvp, or at least the time to acknoledge that its something they need to work on.

Buff Twi'leks! Their lekku are not long enough!

Archangel you make some well thought out, unbiased, and intelligent points. Truely a wall of text that I didn't mind reading. I feel as though you've really nailed it when you gave the example "why should I bring <insert class> to ranked warzones, and are correct by saying that there should be reasons for every single class. I'm sorry to see you're putting your commando on the shelf when it comes to pvp, and I wish you the best of luck on your shadow. I seem to be in roughly the same boat, as I play a balance sage and find that when the forementioned question is asked the answer for dps sage seems to be on par with the answer you receive for your commando. Yes we can be useful, but we don't have a role that can't be better filled by one of the other dps class options available. So cheers to you man, hopefully BW will find the time to rework class balance and class roles in group pvp, or at least the time to acknoledge that its something they need to work on.

 

 

I share your hope, and I'll probably revisit commando from time to time too. Going with my shadow for variety as much as anything, there's a lot of specs I can play with in that class that might be fun.

Nice constructive post OP. I mostly agree with you. Although i cant be 100% sure on how to do it, im pretty sure sages/sorcs need a slight buff. Ive played with lots of good players and theyre doing pretty good so in my opinion they need some kind of edge to get them over the category "underpowered"

 

Merc dps either need a massive DPS boost for pvp (wich will ruin PVE) or need to get some utility. Again i dont have a merc/commando so i cant say for sure only through observation i claim this. Maybe some kind of CD slow, uninterruptable cast that triggers railshot/high impact bolt. IMO something needs to be done there.

 

Ops dps if played right as lethality (again i dont have an ops so cant say for sure) can put out some sick numbers by DOTn running. But i imagine this isnt why most people chose this class so perhaps some fix is needed. Maybe a shadowstep like wow or a teleport to friendly players to make DPS ops more useful in huttball.

 

My most played is my juggernaut. Valor 83. Played it since early access and were at a good place right now when it comes to tank / hybrid / dps specs. But we are way too powerful in huttball. No one class should be able to pop 3 cds, walk through an ENTIRE enemy team while being nuked and soloscore.

 

Shadows have crazy utility and it amazes me that instead of "fixing" infiltration, we have sick dps in tank / hybrid tank specs, great utility , so the nerf in survivability was more than justified.

 

I dont have a marauder, but i play with one all the time, and i agree their damage is fine, but survivability is a problem. Especially annihilation self heal. That needs to get nerfed. Other than that, i dont have a problem with marauders. Imo the problem lies with expertise scaling. worst idea ever to get 20% dmg, 16% dmg reduced and even lower healing done at around 1k expertise. they should just reset it and make it like it was before and scale it equally.

 

My main concern is Pyro PT/ assault vanguard. I have one myself, dinged 50 about a week ago after only leveling it through pvp , started it way back in january but story was so boring i cba finishing. I mean i was in 3 bm pieces and rest recruit and i was MELTING war hero sages / marauders in 3-4 shots. not just that DOT dmg under 30% hp is way too high, railshot procs too much, in addition but one skill makes it so sick its not even a challenge to play ;

 

Explosive fuel. 2 min cd, 15 secs of 25% more crit for all abilities. Lets say i have 30% crit without the agent buff. 35% with it. Pop it , then i have a whopping 60% crit on ALL abilities. Its jsust way too powerful.

 

TL : DR = nerf pts/vanguards , Buff merc dps, buff ops dps, buff sages/sorcs

Edited August 2, 2012 by Dasgruberg

They need to nerf stealth by 30 %. Edited August 2, 2012 by MidichIorian

Buff Twi'leks! Their lekku are not long enough!

 

i see what you did there!!

Nice constructive post OP. I mostly agree with you. Although i cant be 100% sure on how to do it, im pretty sure sages/sorcs need a slight buff. Ive played with lots of good players and theyre doing pretty good so in my opinion they need some kind of edge to get them over the category "underpowered"

 

Merc dps either need a massive DPS boost for pvp (wich will ruin PVE) or need to get some utility. Again i dont have a merc/commando so i cant say for sure only through observation i claim this. Maybe some kind of CD slow, uninterruptable cast that triggers railshot/high impact bolt. IMO something needs to be done there.

 

Ops dps if played right as lethality (again i dont have an ops so cant say for sure) can put out some sick numbers by DOTn running. But i imagine this isnt why most people chose this class so perhaps some fix is needed. Maybe a shadowstep like wow or a teleport to friendly players to make DPS ops more useful in huttball.

 

My most played is my juggernaut. Valor 83. Played it since early access and were at a good place right now when it comes to tank / hybrid / dps specs. But we are way too powerful in huttball. No one class should be able to pop 3 cds, walk through an ENTIRE enemy team while being nuked and soloscore.

 

Shadows have crazy utility and it amazes me that instead of "fixing" infiltration, we have sick dps in tank / hybrid tank specs, great utility , so the nerf in survivability was more than justified.

 

I dont have a marauder, but i play with one all the time, and i agree their damage is fine, but survivability is a problem. Especially annihilation self heal. That needs to get nerfed. Other than that, i dont have a problem with marauders. Imo the problem lies with expertise scaling. worst idea ever to get 20% dmg, 16% dmg reduced and even lower healing done at around 1k expertise. they should just reset it and make it like it was before and scale it equally.

 

My main concern is Pyro PT/ assault vanguard. I have one myself, dinged 50 about a week ago after only leveling it through pvp , started it way back in january but story was so boring i cba finishing. I mean i was in 3 bm pieces and rest recruit and i was MELTING war hero sages / marauders in 3-4 shots. not just that DOT dmg under 30% hp is way too high, railshot procs too much, in addition but one skill makes it so sick its not even a challenge to play ;

 

Explosive fuel. 2 min cd, 15 secs of 25% more crit for all abilities. Lets say i have 30% crit without the agent buff. 35% with it. Pop it , then i have a whopping 60% crit on ALL abilities. Its jsust way too powerful.

 

TL : DR = nerf pts/vanguards , Buff merc dps, buff ops dps, buff sages/sorcs

 

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with these proposed changes, but your thoughts are inline with what I think right about now, but the original point is that nothing needs to be changed about Maras, Pyro PTs, or Juggs if they're meeting the vision for their class. My general feeling is actually that more classes should be buffed, and just given flat out counters to the tools that the perceived OP classes have rather than taking those tools away, and these buffs should be more along the lines of utility rather than damage so as not to affect PVE.

 

My worry is that BW doesn't have concrete visions for all the classes. Mara/Sents and Sniper/GS are very well designed in my opinion after small changes to each and reflect a definitive vision of the class on the part of the devs and a sensible plan for changes that need to be made to attain that vision.

 

But other classes can play multiple roles and I think BW often just doesn't entirely know what to do with them.

Buffing 7 classes is the same as nerfing the class that didn't get buffed. In the end buff/nerf doesn't really matter, it's whatever it takes to get balance with the least amount of effort. If you agree that PT/Marauder are generally overpowered as DPS, your option is either nerf these 2 types or bring the other 10+ variants of DPS (counting specs) on par. It's almost certainly easier to nerf 2 classes than bring 10+ variants up to par.

 

Also, there's only so many niche roles you can fit. Jugg and Assassin can fill in as some kind of DPS/tank combo and you'll see them in rated WZ. They might be OPed or not, no one can say for sure, but you definitely have reason to include one on your team, so you know at least viable. But they fill in pretty specialized roles as a result of their skillset. Most classes can never do that. An Arsenal Merc isn't going to invent himself as a backup healer that can shoot Tracer Missiles. His role is DPS and he has to measure up to the top DPS classes or you wouldn't want one on your team. Assuming we're not seeing classes completely redesigned, there just isn't enough utility to go around for people to reinvent themselves as "DPS with utility' or "Healer with utilty' compared to the top performing guy of that classification.

Buffing 7 classes is the same as nerfing the class that didn't get buffed. In the end buff/nerf doesn't really matter, it's whatever it takes to get balance with the least amount of effort. If you agree that PT/Marauder are generally overpowered as DPS, your option is either nerf these 2 types or bring the other 10+ variants of DPS (counting specs) on par. It's almost certainly easier to nerf 2 classes than bring 10+ variants up to par.

 

 

Buffing 7 classes isn't nerfing the 1 that didn't get nerfed in a lot of ways. For one rather than ticking off all the people that play a class that gets nerfed, you make all the people who play the other classes pretty pleased, which can do wonders for customer satisfaction which is not to be sneezed at from a development perspective. Poi

 

Whatever takes balance with the least amount of effort is most certainly right though, but again we have to define what balance is. If one class has really high DPS is it easier to nerf them or just give everyone better defensive cooldowns (probably without really considering the laws of unintended consequences, as I feel BW has often done in the past).

 

Also there are two aspects to this game. You could probably nerf Pyro PT DPS without significantly hurting the PVE side of the game since most vanguards I know don't go assault DPS to ops (all the PVP Pyro PTs would throw a royal fit if the nerfs were really severe though). Sents/Maras are also highly desired in OPs though and both Carnage/Combat and Watchman/Annihilation trees see a lot of action in both. Plus the Pyro tree itself is relatively simple so the question is where exactly you're going to apply the nerfs.

 

They might also decide that the class itself is right about where they want it and everyone else is underperforming and buff them (they didn't nerf Sage/Commando healing to bring them down to operative/scoundrel level. They nerfed them from what they surmised was overperformance while buffing Scoundrel/Operative healing).

 

Point is that there seem to be more considerations for class balance beyond what takes the least effort since doing nothing is always the easiest option (and oddly enough, given all the nostalgia people have for pre 1.2 PVP, it seems they really would have been better off doing nothing).

 

Also, there's only so many niche roles you can fit. Jugg and Assassin can fill in as some kind of DPS/tank combo and you'll see them in rated WZ. They might be OPed or not, no one can say for sure, but you definitely have reason to include one on your team, so you know at least viable. But they fill in pretty specialized roles as a result of their skillset. Most classes can never do that. An Arsenal Merc isn't going to invent himself as a backup healer that can shoot Tracer Missiles. His role is DPS and he has to measure up to the top DPS classes or you wouldn't want one on your team. Assuming we're not seeing classes completely redesigned, there just isn't enough utility to go around for people to reinvent themselves as "DPS with utility' or "Healer with utilty' compared to the top performing guy of that classification

 

The tank example actually shows that both classes can provide Niche roles in completely different ways. You are not bringing an Assassin instead of a Jugg if what you want is a great ball carrier, but you will if you want someone who can reliably apply a lot of pressure to an off node.

 

They feel specialized roles (that go beyond simply Tank/DPS combo) because of their skillsets, but I feel it would be more accurate to say that because of their skillsets they are able to perform specialized roles.

 

"DPS with utility" manifests itself in as many ways as there are extra skills in the game. A DPS Shadow and a DPS Vanguard are both DPS with utility, but that utility is way different between the two classes. Adding extra skills that don't affect the PVE game much at all but provide other classes with different kinds of utility is arguably much simpler, than figuring out how to nerf PTs/Maras without absolutely crippling them.

 

According to them all the DPS classes have about the same DPS (within a 5% margin, which I have to assume means the difference between the best and worst is 5%). You may choose to believe that or not, but if we concede them this it still doesn't change the fact that if someone can do the same damage (and do it easier) while also being able to provide something else, they'll be taken over a class that can only DPS (or, more likely, if they really can't provide that something extra they're supposed to be able to do). The Arsenal Merc can't make himself a DPS who can backup heal because the baseline heals aren't all that powerful and get very expensive, so that extra bit he's supposed to be able to provide he really can't.

More QQING L2P

 

Wait its PowerReaper everyone has to stop replying to this thread or else...... He will spam us with L2P posts as for his OP sent will kill us.

I saw a trooper finish 3rd in damage total numbers today, bioware needs to nerf troopers.

This is only a brief point, cause I'm in the middle of cooking dinner.

 

Totally agree. I'd love to know what I am "supposed" to be doing well and badly on my class, as opposed to what I "think" I'm supposed to be doing.

 

I was thinking though, you know what would be a good, non-DPS way to balance out the frequently quoted "underpowered" classes vs the supposed "Overpowered ones".

 

Give them buff removal tools on a 15-20s cooldown. If the Commando and Sage, for example, had tools that stripped 1 or 2 self buffs from a target, that would give them both something extra and unique (Well, unique-ish if they both get that effect), and start providing counters the situations people call "Over powered". Most of these situations revolve around self buffs.

 

Strip a Pyro Powertech of they Combustible Gas Cylinder and suddenly they're not so irritating. Strip a marauder of one of his Defensive Cooldowns and he's not so invulnerable. It would actually decrease the "Faceroll-ability" of the stronger classes, because you'd have to pay attention to your buffs and re-apply them sometimes. There shouldn't be a re-apply lockout (although I think Cooldowns on skills should still apply) so that an on-the-ball class can reactivate a stance/ammo selection easily.

 

Anyway, back to dinner.

Good discussion,also has anyone taken the time to do a spreadsheet with damage of classes for say a month,i know there is many variables but id wager one could get a rough idea regardless,i know what the outcome would be anyhow,it would be interesting .