Alright first of all, all of the Mercs around here that I've seen saying "well what else do you want us to cast?" are completely missing the point. Let's get this out in the open.

WE ARE WELL AWARE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE MANY OTHER ABILITIES. THANK YOU.

3 main abilities is not an example of good class design.

Let's face it, Tracer Missile is grossly overpowered. It does way too much damage for it's ease of use, I don't care if it's needed in order to use other abilities. Doesn't it feel like bad class design that for the vast majority of a fight you have to sit there immobile and cast this ability?

In my experience, nearly every Merc that I've seen involved in an argument with another player who mentioned TM being overpowered acts like there isn't anything wrong and that they should just "deal with it noob." That's what we're seeing on the forums we well. Sorry guys, wrong attitude when you're playing a class that requires next to no skill and is obviously overpowered. I played an Operative before the HS nerf and you're damn right it was overpowered and I knew it, never gloated about it.

Honestly BioWare takes the fault for it. Why does it not have a cooldown? I would be fine with it being an ability with higher damage than it has currently that can be used either outright or on a proc with a cooldown time.

Now, about fighting Mercs. Yeah interrupting TM is easy and will lock them out for 4 seconds and that's wonderful. Besides that each class will have maybe one other way to interrupt the next one. However, LoS is NOT an option because let's keep in mind that there are other enemy players most likely nearby as well. Now that will always be a factor, obviously, but the fact remains that using LoS isn't really a solution.

So I block them from attacking me for as long as I remain out of LoS, then what? Eventually I have to head back in there. Being a melee class you can see how I'd be apprehensive about heading into ranged territory.

I'd love to play a Merc myself but that playstyle doesn't interest me in the slightest and it would be nice if it was balanced not just for everyone else's sake but current Mercs must find it boring.

Oh and I was a 873624th time Gladiator in WoW, my net worth is over 24 billion, AND I know the meaning of life. Because I know someone will ask for my credentials for some reason.

Let's see if we're capable of some intelligent discussion on this subject.

This thread is new an original. I notice you play a Marauder...if you have problems with Mercs, I don't even know where to begin with you.

^ this guy pretty much sums it up. If one on one you are losing to mercs there is no hope for you.

If they have Tracer Missle then let them use it.

Sage has pebbles

Sorc has lightning

Sniper has grenade for whatever reason

Operative has Hidden Strike.

lets get past the op skill BS and just play

i just came out of a warzone 15 minutes ago...5 bounty hunters all spamming tracermissile. there is a problem

This isn't any different from running in to 5 sorcs healing each other or 5 snipers sniping your team.

All this shows is that people fall for FOTM easily.

I agree with him completely. I play a Sentinel and I tear Mercenaries/Commandos apart. This is irrelevant. There are plenty of other classes that can't.

The problem is when you can't attack the Mercenary/Commando or there are multiple ones. The ease of play combined with the high damage and survivability of the class is the problem. I have a level 28 Commando who I shelved because the gameplay was too simple.

^ this guy pretty much sums it up. If one on one you are losing to mercs there is no hope for you.

seriously, there is so much you can do with a marauder against.. any class.

If they have Tracer Missle then let them use it.

Sage has pebbles

Sorc has lightning

Sniper has grenade for whatever reason

Operative has Hidden Strike.

 

lets get past the op skill BS and just play

I suppose you don't complain to your landlord when your hot water doesn't work or when your toilet is leaking either? Lets just ignore the problems and enjoy everything else! The OP does't say that TM is game breaking, just annoyingly overpowered, as are all the other things you mentioned, and I agree that they should all be balanced in one way or another.

Yeah, looks like we got a little off track right off the bat. Gonna clear a few more things up right now.

Whether or not the thread is new or original is irrelevant. This forum is for discussing the game and it's positives and negatives. Meaning, I can post as many threads about class balance as I want. You being tired of seeing them isn't my problem. Moving on.

I'll also clear up that as a Marauder I have had no problems taking down Mercenaries in my time PvPing. I've beaten my fair share in Ilum and in Warzones, looks like I should have included that in my OP. That by no means disqualifies me from bringing them up in any way.

So off topic for a minute, Undying Rage is a bit much right now and I agree that something should probably be done about it. Not even going to get into Sorcerers/Sages because that's something I also feel strongly about and the amount of power and utility that they have, that's not what we're talking about here.

Yeah, looks like we got a little off track right off the bat. Gonna clear a few more things up right now.

 

Whether or not the thread is new or original is irrelevant. This forum is for discussing the game and it's positives and negatives. Meaning, I can post as many threads about class balance as I want. You being tired of seeing them isn't my problem. Moving on.

 

I'll also clear up that as a Marauder I have had no problems taking down Mercenaries in my time PvPing. I've beaten my fair share in Ilum and in Warzones, looks like I should have included that in my OP. That by no means disqualifies me from bringing them up in any way.

 

So off topic for a minute, Undying Rage is a bit much right now and I agree that something should probably be done about it. Not even going to get into Sorcerers/Sages because that's something I also feel strongly about and the amount of power and utility that they have, that's not what we're talking about here.

1st - I agree with the thread part. People who come in to bash thread titles and if they've seen them before are stupid. EVERYTHING discussed on the forums has been discussed before unless there's a new gamebreaking bug in the recent patch.

2nd - There's NO WAY that Tracer Missile is overpowered. People are angry because at lower levels it can face-roll in PvP. At 50, it does not do anymore damage than any other classes' main abilities. People are mad because it's the only ability that some "not-so-skilled" Arsenal Mercenaries use. And if I were you, I would be happy that it's the only ability they use because they aren't doing as much damage as they should be.

I like to see myself as a skilled Arsenal Merc, and I wouldn't be against lets say... after 5 stacks of Tracer Missile on the same target, the damage from Tracer Missile itself is tremendously reduced (only in PvP, I'm not sure how this would work in PvE).

^ this guy pretty much sums it up. If one on one you are losing to mercs there is no hope for you.

Where are you guys getting the impression that he's losing to them? Just assumed it, I guess? He never said that. He was describing the problem with the design of the talent tree around the use of one skill, a skill that is supposed to build other ones but simply does too much damage on its own and can achieve success on its own merits. He is correct. These points can be applied to any other class, ranged or melee. They aren't Marauder specific. Mauraders may have the least problem with them, but other classes still have to suffer.

That entire talent tree and the skills it buffs needs to be rethought and reworked from scratch. You can't just put a cooldown on TM at this point. It would gimp the class. They have to go back to the drawing board. I play a Guardian and I would love for them to do the same with the Focus tree. It's good, but it's just so stupid. Everything revolves around building up the Force Sweep crit, then rinse and repeat. It's terrible design and it's not much fun. So I don't play Focus anymore, but a ton of people do, just like a ton of people play Arsenal because it's so damn easy to be good with.

I see people on the forums all of the time defending the Mercenary class in these threads, and a lot of them will say "Well, Pyro does better damage anyway and you don't have to stand there and turret". OK. I think I believe you, so why don't I see a bunch of Pyro Mercs running around? In fact the only Pyro specs I ever fight are PT's. Why is this? Could it be because it really doesn't do all that much more damage? Or could it also be that maybe it has a bit more potential, but Arsenal is so stupidly easy to melt people with, that's what everyone chooses?

This is not a problem of "Oh you can just interrupt them" or "We have to use other skills, too". That isn't the issue. The problem is the design. It's boring and stupid to give poor players the ability to obliterate people effortlessly. So, what? You cast tracer missile a bunch of times and your target has a huge chunk of health gone. Then you use your Railshot periodically in there and maybe a Full-Auto? 3 skills and zoom, right to the top of the kills/damage charts. If it took some effort or skill to achieve this as it does with Marauders, Pyro specs, pretty much any other DPS class in the game, it wouldn't bother people so much.

It is too dumbed down and too easy to reach lofty kill/damage numbers with this particular class and spec. There's your problem. It may not do too much damage compared to say, a Marauder in your face, but it's just so damn mindless. What they need to do is re-work that tree so that the damage stays roughly the same over time, but make the class use more than one skill 80% of the time, for gods' sake.

I'm going to clarify one more time before someone flames me for this. I don't think the Arsenal tree's overall damage needs a nerf. They're a DPS class with very little CC and should be able to do significant damage, but for the love of everything holy, make it a little bit harder to accomplish. A monkey shouldn't be able to achieve 500k+ damage every warzone.

Where are you guys getting the impression that he's losing to them? Just assumed it, I guess? He never said that. He was describing the problem with the design of the talent tree around the use of one skill, a skill that is supposed to build other ones but simply does too much damage on its own and can achieve success on its own merits. He is correct. These points can be applied to any other class, ranged or melee. They aren't Marauder specific. Mauraders may have the least problem with them, but other classes still have to suffer.

 

That entire talent tree and the skills it buffs needs to be rethought and reworked from scratch. You can't just put a cooldown on TM at this point. It would gimp the class. They have to go back to the drawing board. I play a Guardian and I would love for them to do the same with the Focus tree. It's good, but it's just so stupid. Everything revolves around building up the Force Sweep crit, then rinse and repeat. It's terrible design and it's not much fun. So I don't play Focus anymore, but a ton of people do, just like a ton of people play Arsenal because it's so damn easy to be good with.

 

I see people on the forums all of the time defending the Mercenary class in these threads, and a lot of them will say "Well, Pyro does better damage anyway and you don't have to stand there and turret". OK. I think I believe you, so why don't I see a bunch of Pyro Mercs running around? In fact the only Pyro specs I ever fight are PT's. Why is this? Could it be because it really doesn't do all that much more damage? Or could it also be that maybe it has a bit more potential, but Arsenal is so stupidly easy to melt people with, that's what everyone chooses?

 

This is not a problem of "Oh you can just interrupt them" or "We have to use other skills, too". That isn't the issue. The problem is the design. It's boring and stupid to give poor players the ability to obliterate people effortlessly. So, what? You cast tracer missile a bunch of times and your target has a huge chunk of health gone. Then you use your Railshot periodically in there and maybe a Full-Auto? 3 skills and zoom, right to the top of the kills/damage charts. If it took some effort or skill to achieve this as it does with Marauders, Pyro specs, pretty much any other DPS class in the game, it wouldn't bother people so much.

 

It is too dumbed down and too easy to reach lofty kill/damage numbers with this particular class and spec. There's your problem. It may not do too much damage compared to say, a Marauder in your face, but it's just so damn mindless. What they need to do is re-work that tree so that the damage stays roughly the same over time, but make the class use more than one skill 80% of the time, for gods' sake.

 

I'm going to clarify one more time before someone flames me for this. I don't think the Arsenal tree's overall damage needs a nerf. They're a DPS class with very little CC and should be able to do significant damage, but for the love of everything holy, make it a little bit harder to accomplish. A monkey shouldn't be able to achieve 500k+ damage every warzone.

If you leave a sniper alone he can pretty much 3-4 shot you. Why arent' people complaing about snipers? All i ever hear about in pvp is some class is op. It makes me generally think people don't know what focusing, LOS and interrupts mean.

My biggest issue with Tracer Missile is that Mercs don't get it at level 10 when they pick their AC.

I made my BH and was thinking "Only 10 levels and I can queue up a WZ and shoot me some tracers missiles". But NO! I have to do 10 more levels just to talent into it?!?!?

SCREW YOU BW IF I CAN'T SPAM TRACER AT LEVEL 10 YOUR GAME IS BROKEN!!!

/cancelled

If you leave a sniper alone he can pretty much 3-4 shot you. Why arent' people complaing about snipers? All i ever hear about in pvp is some class is op. It makes me generally think people don't know what focusing, LOS and interrupts mean.

Did you even read my post? I never said it was overpowered. I said it was too easy to do incredibly well with because it's a poorly designed system.

1st - I agree with the thread part. People who come in to bash thread titles and if they've seen them before are stupid. EVERYTHING discussed on the forums has been discussed before unless there's a new gamebreaking bug in the recent patch..

Then discuss it in one of the other 50 threads on the issue. This is nothing more than another cry for attention by someone who can't play their class.

1st - I agree with the thread part. People who come in to bash thread titles and if they've seen them before are stupid. EVERYTHING discussed on the forums has been discussed before unless there's a new gamebreaking bug in the recent patch.

 

 

2nd - There's NO WAY that Tracer Missile is overpowered. People are angry because at lower levels it can face-roll in PvP. At 50, it does not do anymore damage than any other classes' main abilities. People are mad because it's the only ability that some "not-so-skilled" Arsenal Mercenaries use. And if I were you, I would be happy that it's the only ability they use because they aren't doing as much damage as they should be.

 

I like to see myself as a skilled Arsenal Merc, and I wouldn't be against lets say... after 5 stacks of Tracer Missile on the same target, the damage from Tracer Missile itself is tremendously reduced (only in PvP, I'm not sure how this would work in PvE).

At 50 I definitely agree the damage from Tracer Missile is pretty balanced but that the fact that it can be used over and over again imbalances it.

Just to note, I'm not taking into account fresh 50s who have a less than ideal health pool when I'm talking about this because you can be wrecked by anything.

Even if you use your maximum damage rotation in PvP which includes other abilities besides Tracer Missile I still feel that it's a bit too easy to use for the damage that it puts out (not saying it's too much but it's a good amount to be sure). I'd like to see it's damage boosted and a cooldown put on it.

I feel that this would be a good compromise because in it's current state it's way too easy to put massive amounts of damage out with minimal effort even though you aren't getting maximum DPS, it does a ton of damage on it's own.

Did you even read my post? I never said it was overpowered. I said it was too easy to do incredibly well with because it's a poorly designed system.

I agree that is poorly made mechanics, but nerfing one ability isn't going to fix it. Bioware would need to remake the whole arsenal tree.

Almost every arsenal merc in the game would love tracer missile damage nerfed if you boost their finisher skills like HSM, RS, and Unload. Does tracer missile hit for too much, maybe, but their overall DPS in WZ and probably PVE is not out of line when compared to other ranged classes in SWTOR. Arsenal line is a sustained damage line, not a burst damage line like pyro (who do more DPS in WZ than arsenal mercs currently).

Nerfing tracer missile without either a complete overhaul of the arsenal line or increasing finisher damage would neuter the spec and they would all shift to pyro and steam roll you on the move.

The ease of play-ability of the class does not, and should not, directly effect its damage output.

Also, I am beyond sick of seeing posts of people saying they got steam rolled by 3-5 mercs casting tracer missile on them. If you are being focused by 3-5 of any class, or combination of classes, you are going to die - end of story.

Then discuss it in one of the other 50 threads on the issue. This is nothing more than another cry for attention by someone who can't play their class.

After several pages, those threads tend to get so cluttered by meaningless posts such as yours, it becomes impossible to have a real discussion amidst all of the garbage. So people start new ones. This is how forums work.

im sick of nerfs, how about make other things worth doing and more fun.

But, we can't spam undying rage...HUGE difference there. And yeah undying rage is OP, but when it wears off...we dead! When tracer missle wears off what happens? KNOCK BACK MORE TRACERMISSLE SPAM!

Then discuss it in one of the other 50 threads on the issue. This is nothing more than another cry for attention by someone who can't play their class.

Jones hit the nail on the head, the problem lies with the design of the tree. While I seriously doubt that BioWare would consider reworking an entire class tree either out of fear of losing Merc subscriptions or simply because they're proud of the Arsenal tree and wouldn't want to touch it.

Whatever the issue is, the main problem is the class design and not the ability itself. While Tracer Missile itself does have it's problems, it would be solved almost entirely by taking the emphasis off of it and making the damage rotation focus on other things as well.

Almost every arsenal merc in the game would love tracer missile damage nerfed if you boost their finisher skills like HSM, RS, and Unload. Does tracer missile hit for too much, maybe, but their overall DPS in WZ and probably PVE is not out of line when compared to other ranged classes in SWTOR. Arsenal line is a sustained damage line, not a burst damage line like pyro (who do more DPS in WZ than arsenal mercs currently).

 

Nerfing tracer missile without either a complete overhaul of the arsenal line or increasing finisher damage would neuter the spec and they would all shift to pyro and steam roll you on the move.

 

The ease of play-ability of the class does not, and should not, directly effect its damage output.

 

Also, I am beyond sick of seeing posts of people saying they got steam rolled by 3-5 mercs casting tracer missile on them. If you are being focused by 3-5 of any class, or combination of classes, you are going to die - end of story.

The last paragraph is so true. Sadly, this game isnt about skill from any class, I think I've finally come to terms with that. In other games if you were good at your class you could go 2v1 with people and still win, assuming the other 2 people were mediocre. But, here, do to the 10k plus cd's that everyone has, it's impossible to show true skill. You can't survive 12 seconds of stuns/roots and come out on top... Same with multiple mercs on you, even 2 on you and you won't survive. On my marauder i've had 5 people just clobber me and during that 5 seconds of living i had 3 stuns on me...and i see the assassin use his knockback after im dead, glad stuns and knockbacks are part of peoples dps rotation, isnt it obvious these skills arent on too short of a CD?