I have always known this data is geared for raiding - only. Our guild does not raid, I've never been on a raid. What we do (and really enjoy) are running Flashpoints and Heroics with a 2-man team and no healer except our companions when they are not locked out. Vanguard and Commando. Tank and DPS. I'm the tank, and we have regularly taken down a lot of really hard places just '2-manning' them. It's a huge challenge and very tough, we may wipe a few times but we always seem to find a way to complete them. Great fun. We've fought like this as a team for more years than I care to admit across many games, Rogue Spear, Asheron's Call, LOTRO, Guild Wars, SWTOR.

 

Our gear is crafted BiS which is 186's currently. No set bonuses. We gear our companions the same. Which of course means 'B' mods but there you go.

 

Question: Just off the top do you feel your tables are a good fit for this kind of fighting? It seems the Defense is getting so low now and it concerns me. I know that to properly determine the correct mix of Defense, Shield and Absorb I'd need to run the math based on exactly what we're fighting, then take an average - the same thing you've done with raids and 192 BiS gear. That's a bit over the top for me, and trial and error gets expensive.

 

I know getting way off topic but just curious your thoughts on this. Running gear based on your 12/6/14 tables which has been working very well, looking at the decrease in Defense, which I feel is getting a bit low for how I gear, and scratching my head a bit.

 

Thanks!

First off, Aelanis is correct that my defense minima are incorrect right now. Fixing that is my next project. For now, just know that reducing your total stat budget in order to hit a certain defense level is not optimal.

My guess for flashpoints, heroics and such is that you will do best with the high M/R profile. Flashpoints and heroics have a LOT of trash, and even the bosses tend to be pretty heavy on the white damage most of the time.

Hmm, I have shadows at a defense minimum of 137 with a stat budget of 3997, based on stim and relics. Did I miscalculate? Shield min is set at 1195, shield max is set at 1922.

 

One thing that is screwing up the min/max numbers is the use of B mods, which effectively deflates the stat budget without moving the correlations.

Now that I think about it, how are you calculating your minima? 1110 Shield would be 192 level, but are you accounting for less gear than that? Each of the minima is something I think would be rough, because you have to change it based on your total "gear score." Maybe the best option is to just interpolate between the values for each tier (186, 192, 198, etc.)?

Now that I think about it, how are you calculating your minima? 1110 Shield would be 192 level, but are you accounting for less gear than that? Each of the minima is something I think would be rough, because you have to change it based on your total "gear score." Maybe the best option is to just interpolate between the values for each tier (186, 192, 198, etc.)?

I'm interpolating, but I counted gear stats hurriedly on the PTS and haven't checked since then. Here are the functions:

Augments:=52 14

Stim := 81
ShieldMin[budget_]:=(budget-(Augments+Stim))/(2.3489+budget/12500)
ShieldMax[budget_]:=ShieldMin[budget]+Augments
DefenseMin[budget_,pieces_]:=((budget-(Augments+Stim)) pieces)/20.2791+(budget-(Augments+Stim))/56.9160+Stim
FRRelic[budget_]:=35/264 (budget-(Augments+Stim))+61585/132

In the above, "pieces" is the number of defense-mandatory pieces selected from BiS ear and implants. This value is 0 for shadows, 3 for guardians and 1 for vanguards.

First off, Aelanis is correct that my defense minima are incorrect right now. Fixing that is my next project. For now, just know that reducing your total stat budget in order to hit a certain defense level is not optimal.

 

My guess for flashpoints, heroics and such is that you will do best with the high M/R profile. Flashpoints and heroics have a LOT of trash, and even the bosses tend to be pretty heavy on the white damage most of the time.

Thanks for your input, I will do just that, use the High-M/R for now. Looking forward to your next data iteration. Appreciate the work on this, I know how RL will sweep you away from gaming/game programming for weeks, months, even years.

I'm interpolating, but I counted gear stats hurriedly on the PTS and haven't checked since then. Here are the functions:

 

Augments:=52 14

Stim := 81
ShieldMin[budget_]:=(budget-(Augments+Stim))/(2.3489+budget/12500)
ShieldMax[budget_]:=ShieldMin[budget]+Augments
DefenseMin[budget_,pieces_]:=((budget-(Augments+Stim)) pieces)/20.2791+(budget-(Augments+Stim))/56.9160+Stim
FRRelic[budget_]:=35/264 (budget-(Augments+Stim))+61585/132

 

In the above, "pieces" is the number of defense-mandatory pieces selected from BiS ear and implants. This value is 0 for shadows, 3 for guardians and 1 for vanguards.

Unfortunately, I haven't learned Mathematica coding yet, so I'm figuring out quite how you did your calculations slowly. When I tried to set up some code to calculate how much primary/secondary/tertiary budget existed at each gear level, I found that, for the past few tiers at least, tertiary stat on each piece (enhancement/implant/earpiece) by (6 + floor((i-1)/2)), where i = 0 going from Dread Guard to the [Artifact] gear that was bought with Basic coms at 2.0 launch (150 -> 156). It followed the formula from Dread Guard up through Revanite, and so I imagine it would follow the same pattern afterwards, assuming the increase gear rating by 6 with each tier. Further back, it drops to 4 rating per tier, and the formula falls apart. I haven't looked into the relic proc values, yet, but I could do that if it would help.

Also, the minimum defense mandatory pieces is 0 for Shadows and Vanguards and only 1 for Guardians. Vanguards and Shadows get an Absorption earpiece from the token drop, and each class can pick between Defense and Absorption implants (which is really, really nice).

Also, the minimum defense mandatory pieces is 0 for Shadows and Vanguards and only 1 for Guardians. Vanguards and Shadows get an Absorption earpiece from the token drop, and each class can pick between Defense and Absorption implants (which is really, really nice).

Actually it is 3 for Juggs, and 2 for PT/Sins. Jugg's can only get a Defensive chance Revanite earpeice and all tanking relics (Shield Amp, Fort Redoubt, and Reactive Warding) have defensive chance. 52 for Revanite and 48 for Resurrected. So Defensive stat floor for Juggs right now is 275 (earpiece and 2 relics) unstimed and 356 advanced Anodyne stimed. Sins and PT share thier floor at 104 (2 relics) unstimed and 185 stimed. Juggs could try to run Deceiver earpieces as those have absorb rather then defensive chance but you will see a good size chunk of your budget go out the window for end.

My question KBN, is it really worth running average for a Jugg tank? The stat differences are not too extreme between High, Mid and average, but low and average are miles apart as far as defensive chances goes. Almost 800 points apart. So should I attempt to run average on my Jugg or should I just bite the bullet and get a full low MR suit.

Actually it is 3 for Juggs, and 2 for PT/Sins. Jugg's can only get a Defensive chance Revanite earpeice and all tanking relics (Shield Amp, Fort Redoubt, and Reactive Warding) have defensive chance. 52 for Revanite and 48 for Resurrected. So Defensive stat floor for Juggs right now is 275 (earpiece and 2 relics) unstimed and 356 advanced Anodyne stimed. Sins and PT share thier floor at 104 (2 relics) unstimed and 185 stimed. Juggs could try to run Deceiver earpieces as those have absorb rather then defensive chance but you will see a good size chunk of your budget go out the window for end.

 

My question KBN, is it really worth running average for a Jugg tank? The stat differences are not too extreme between High, Mid and average, but low and average are miles apart as far as defensive chances goes. Almost 800 points apart. So should I attempt to run average on my Jugg or should I just bite the bullet and get a full low MR suit.

I hadn't included relics because they gain defensive stats at a different rate than any other token piece and because KBN didn't include them in his initial count of pieces.

Getting a second gear set depends on how serious you are about the hard mode content, how good your healers are, and if your raid group is willing to give you half of a second set of full gear.

As for the extra bit of endurance, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Especially on 16 man, the spikes are pretty crazy. I've watched a full 198 decked out tank (minus main hand) get dropped to 5k hp by 16 man Revan. The spikes are extreme, and a little extra HP can help you get through them without popping.

First off, thank you. A lot of stuff way over my head but I appreciate all the work and time you put into this.

A couple questions:

Since the Low case is so low, would it be worthwhile in the model to replace the assumption of a fortunate redoubt relic with shield amplification? Or even when defense is driving to a minimum value should we still be using that relic?

The tables are quite huge that you’re generating. Given how long it takes to generate them would it be reasonable to just work in a range of say 2500-4500? Not sure what the best low value would be but the current max value is about 4000. Looking forward to NiM content would be useful but that would only add a few hundred or so.

First off, thank you. A lot of stuff way over my head but I appreciate all the work and time you put into this.

 

A couple questions:

 

Since the Low case is so low, would it be worthwhile in the model to replace the assumption of a fortunate redoubt relic with shield amplification? Or even when defense is driving to a minimum value should we still be using that relic?

 

The tables are quite huge that you’re generating. Given how long it takes to generate them would it be reasonable to just work in a range of say 2500-4500? Not sure what the best low value would be but the current max value is about 4000. Looking forward to NiM content would be useful but that would only add a few hundred or so.

i have tables that say which relic to use for each boss fight. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=802955

but it assumes youre in full revanite...

Just a quick question: do you have a table somewhere that shows gear stat values that are actually attainable?

Trying to help some friends of mine who are gearing via your numbers and, while I do understand the century mark system, it often breaks down to a choice between being over on stat A while being under on stats B and C, or some combination thereof.

Example from our Mean Mitigation conversation:

For 4003 exactly, my stat distribution shows: {defense -> 1545, shield -> 1209, absorb -> 1249}

Shield of 1209 is absolutely unattainable, under any circumstances at 4003 stat pool in the game at this point.

Absorb 1249 can be obtained with 7 Enhancements, 7 Mods, and 1 Augment.

Cycle the 9 from Shield over to Defense and you can get it with everything else to be 1554 while putting nothing in Shield at all to have it at 1200.

But not everyone is going to take the time to break it down like that. Some people may not have the patient to get swapping pieces (theoretically or actually) to find exacting values (took a couple tries to find the Absorb configuration) Don't know if there is a way you could tweak your algorithm to spit out values based on actual gear levels. Just thought I would ask.

If people are interested I could break it down for them, but I didn't want to step on your toes, as they are your numbers.

Just a quick question: do you have a table somewhere that shows gear stat values that are actually attainable?

Trying to help some friends of mine who are gearing via your numbers and, while I do understand the century mark system, it often breaks down to a choice between being over on stat A while being under on stats B and C, or some combination thereof.

Example from our Mean Mitigation conversation:

 

 

Shield of 1209 is absolutely unattainable, under any circumstances at 4003 stat pool in the game at this point.

 

Absorb 1249 can be obtained with 7 Enhancements, 7 Mods, and 1 Augment.

 

Cycle the 9 from Shield over to Defense and you can get it with everything else to be 1554 while putting nothing in Shield at all to have it at 1200.

 

But not everyone is going to take the time to break it down like that. Some people may not have the patient to get swapping pieces (theoretically or actually) to find exacting values (took a couple tries to find the Absorb configuration) Don't know if there is a way you could tweak your algorithm to spit out values based on actual gear levels. Just thought I would ask.

 

If people are interested I could break it down for them, but I didn't want to step on your toes, as they are your numbers.

I credited KBN with the original numbers in the guide in my signature, where I break it down at all of the: Revanite, Revanite with B mods, Resurrected, and Resurrected with B mods levels, piece by piece to get as close as possible to those numbers, but in between those it's really hard to interpolate for all values.

I credited KBN with the original numbers in the guide in my signature, where I break it down at all of the: Revanite, Revanite with B mods, Resurrected, and Resurrected with B mods levels, piece by piece to get as close as possible to those numbers, but in between those it's really hard to interpolate for all values.

After reading your guide (first time I have been on Dulfy since 3.0 dropped, and also the last if I have any say in the matter), I feel like I should rename my first forum thread. You kept referencing Mean Mitigation and I was getting a bit thrown off, lol.

My current Assassin configuration is Efficient Mitigation, and it has been doing rather well. As I mentioned to one of the consolidators I am doing some numbers from a different perspective, will see how they turn out and then post, but your guide was excellent all-around, I would/will recommend it to anyone who isn't on the "different armor for each fight" level (if you know what I mean).

first, KBN thank you for all this work.

My question is why is defense getting lower on a jugg/guardian as you gear up when we benefit the most from it? or maybe i'm not grasping the concept here.

first, KBN thank you for all this work.

 

My question is why is defense getting lower on a jugg/guardian as you gear up when we benefit the most from it? or maybe i'm not grasping the concept here.

It's just the way that the DR is interacting with the rate of returns and the gear-imposed bounds. Defense is valuable early because the rate of return is reasonably good and the stat budgets are so low that you don't have enough shield for absorb to be worthwhile (since shield has a min and a max bound). As you gear up, you're able to get more shield rating naturally, which pushes the value of absorb up and the value of defense down. This effect compounds itself since shield and defense play directly off one another (you cannot shield if you defend, and surprisingly the inverse is also true with equal weight). Thus, defense basically falls off a cliff as soon as you're able to start getting real value out of shield and absorb.

Just want to know what is the best relics to get for a shadow tank please? Does the reactive warding still the one to get with the defense proc one?

Many thanks for this thread KBN!

Just want to know what is the best relics to get for a shadow tank please? Does the reactive warding still the one to get with the defense proc one?

Many thanks for this thread KBN!

KBN still uses the Reactive Warding + Fortunate Redoubt relic combination for his calculations

Note that these tables were all generated assuming use of the best in slot relic types: Reactive Warding and Fortunate Redoubt. These tables are not fully accurate with other relic combinations! They will be close, but not quite correct. Because these relics are included in the optimization process, there is no need to consider the relic proc value in your stat budget (as was previously required). Simply use your character sheet values; no need to calculate!

Just want to know what is the best relics to get for a shadow tank please? Does the reactive warding still the one to get with the defense proc one?

Many thanks for this thread KBN!

A few posts back I told someone about my tables.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=802955

Thanks for your work.

The thing I was noticing looking at the stats this time is the swing in defense needed is so big in these numbers that just using the average so you don't need 3 sets of gear doesn't seem as viable as in other patches. The need for defense goes from 100 to 200 on some fights and classes to 1000 to 1200 on others and then your average stat sheet has like 250. Average seemed to be closer in previous patches. Also walking into a fight with 1000 less defense then is optimum is big enough that your healers will have trouble overcoming it. It seems like this patch you really need to carry a couple pieces of extra defense gear for the high m/r fights. Am i making any sense? Do you feel the same way? Are you carrying extra gear this time?

Thanks again

The new OP boss mostly does internal dmg. Then comes F/T. Then M/R. So go shield/absorb, with B-mods. Pretty much like Ruugar HM.

Ruugar is the closest match. However, most of the damage is actually kinetic/energy. Rember that KE is reduced by mitigation far more than IE, and so it will be underrepresented in post mitigation analysis (like Parsec). By my calculations, only a little over 40% of Monolith's damage is IE.

Your advice is still optimal though. :-)

Might depend on playstyle and tactic. Our tactic was to resolve the colour puzzle as fast as possible. Therefore rift dmg is lower than when you cheese the mechanic.

Colossal Monolith HM :

Bleeding - 454k - 54,1% Internal

Breaking the Rift - 191k - 22,7% Internal

Great Slam - 67,486 - 8% Kinetic

Bite Wounds -62,086 - 7,4% Kinetic

Swipe - 37,295 - 4,4% Kinetic

Destruction of all <Enrage ability> - 28,077 - 3,3% Kinetic

So its indeed a defense fight, there are no F/T attacks except for an attack called Terrible Shout. Which sometimes occur in my logs, no idea why it occurs. Maybe its the attack he does when the colour riddle has not been solved?

Rember that KE is reduced by mitigation far more than IE, and so it will be underrepresented in post mitigation analysis

I/E is also reduced by 21% for Jug Tanks but i had less than 21% of defense during that fight even with retaliation buff.