To be fair, Overcharge Saber is a pretty **** defensive (except in tank spec, since it also adds 25% DR for tanks)

It's basically a medpac, healing roughly 25% total health for Hatred, and closer to 45-55% total HP for Deception, it's not a bad DCD, just need to now how/when to use it.

It's basically a medpac, healing roughly 25% total health for Hatred, and closer to 45-55% total HP for Deception, it's not a bad DCD, just need to now how/when to use it.

I agree, it also helps hatred in the aspect of increasing your heals and dots but besides that and what you mentioned not much use for it.

I agree, it also helps hatred in the aspect of increasing your heals and dots but besides that and what you mentioned not much use for it.

Yea. I find that often, people misuses this ability the most, out of the entire kit of DCDs that sin has (albeit a limited kit). Often, they pop it when they are close to dead, or under 50% HP. Thing is, the ability actually heals 2-3x more than the initial burst heal of 15% if you are actively in combat using melee abilities (which favors deception more than hatred). But many will use this as a med pac, so to speak, and stealth out while the buff is still up, or disengage combat, which nullifies the heal over time aspect of the ability.

sin/shadow dcds arent great imo since you are extremely susceptible to stunlock globals if you miss the right timing because of the squishiness of the class. if played right, you can mitigate tons of damage obviously.

what bugs me most is the loss of phasewalk. I used to use it in combination with vanish for guaranteed success to heal up in solo ranked etc. now that pw is gone you basically have to force speed out of the engagement and hope nobody charges you or aoe spams while you spam your vanish. more often than not I found myself in stealth but also in combat and have to wait painfully long amounts of time to get outfight and be able to regenerate. it's just annoying to see maras being the better stealth class these days. they can vanish every 45sec opposed to a sin's 75sec (IF specced, else it is 120), pop predation and run across the entire map, up to a distance where you automatically leave combat. while in some occasions they get chased by other maras, it generally feels much more effective than assassin's vanish, creeping across the map desperately trying to get out of combat while your team is just dying.

if sins dont get back PW I would like them to get something like 100% speed boost 10sec after using battlevanish or so, to make up for the more often than not failed attempt to get out of combat reliably. I mean, that is pretty much the classes' theme after all.

alternatively, sins/shadows could be made immune to being put into combat mode for a few seconds after using vanish, as long as they dont use offensive abilities.

sin/shadow dcds arent great imo since you are extremely susceptible to stunlock globals if you miss the right timing because of the squishiness of the class. if played right, you can mitigate tons of damage obviously.

 

what bugs me most is the loss of phasewalk. I used to use it in combination with vanish for guaranteed success to heal up in solo ranked etc. now that pw is gone you basically have to force speed out of the engagement and hope nobody charges you or aoe spams while you spam your vanish. more often than not I found myself in stealth but also in combat and have to wait painfully long amounts of time to get outfight and be able to regenerate. it's just annoying to see maras being the better stealth class these days. they can vanish every 45sec opposed to a sin's 75sec (IF specced, else it is 120), pop predation and run across the entire map, up to a distance where you automatically leave combat. while in some occasions they get chased by other maras, it generally feels much more effective than assassin's vanish, creeping across the map desperately trying to get out of combat while your team is just dying.

if sins dont get back PW I would like them to get something like 100% speed boost 10sec after using battlevanish or so, to make up for the more often than not failed attempt to get out of combat reliably. I mean, that is pretty much the classes' theme after all.

alternatively, sins/shadows could be made immune to being put into combat mode for a few seconds after using vanish, as long as they dont use offensive abilities.

sigh

this

Disclaimer: my post will revolve around the Serenity spec only.

I recently returned to the game after a long hiatus. I used to main Balance (serenity) Shadow back in 1.7, but after the changes in 2.0 I kinda fell out of the game. I've tried every iteration of the class and spec since, so I know its history.

As a returning player, it is not our defenses that concerns me. Shadows were always squishy, Balance/Serenity in particular, but we had the tools to get around it. We still have these tools and we can mitigate insane amounts of damage. What bothers me instead is the loss of utility and single target DPS. Serenity has gotten better single target DPS since 2.0 but it still feels lacklustre, especially if you compare it to other classes. By reading through this thread I get the feeling that people want to spread dots easier, but that's not our primary concern in my opinion. AoE pressure is useful but it's also detrimental as it sabotages incapacitation-effects such as flashbang and force lift. By spreading dots without control we're becoming less tactical for team play. As such, I don't think we should ever spread dots via Force in Balance or Deathfield ever again. It is fine the way it is now.

However we do lack a lot in the single-target damage department. Back in 1.7 we could still use Shadow Strike, which helped a lot. We now have Spinning Strike procs, but they're not as effective. It is possible that Force in Balance did more damage as well as it only struck 3 targets. Force in Balance also had a range of 30 meters, meaning we could nuke people from a safe distance; and it was great utility too. Personally, I'd love to see the ability back to something like this: hit less targets but deal more damage and have a 30 meter range.

And finally, another thing we suffer from (shared issue with lethality operatives) is that we require a lot of GCDs to get our damage going. I don't really see the point of having both Sever Force and Force Breach. They could easily be combined into one ability. Perhaps Squelch could have a bit longer duration and allow its dot to be spread as well. Also, we need another button to click. Serenity Strike is awesome, but I'd like to see Project back in some shape or another (mainly because it's yellow damage and has a bit of range which suits the playstyle).

Those are my opinions after having been back for about a month.

Disclaimer: my post will revolve around the Serenity spec only.

 

I recently returned to the game after a long hiatus. I used to main Balance (serenity) Shadow back in 1.7, but after the changes in 2.0 I kinda fell out of the game. I've tried every iteration of the class and spec since, so I know its history.

 

As a returning player, it is not our defenses that concerns me. Shadows were always squishy, Balance/Serenity in particular, but we had the tools to get around it. We still have these tools and we can mitigate insane amounts of damage. What bothers me instead is the loss of utility and single target DPS. Serenity has gotten better single target DPS since 2.0 but it still feels lacklustre, especially if you compare it to other classes. By reading through this thread I get the feeling that people want to spread dots easier, but that's not our primary concern in my opinion. AoE pressure is useful but it's also detrimental as it sabotages incapacitation-effects such as flashbang and force lift. By spreading dots without control we're becoming less tactical for team play. As such, I don't think we should ever spread dots via Force in Balance or Deathfield ever again. It is fine the way it is now.

 

However we do lack a lot in the single-target damage department. Back in 1.7 we could still use Shadow Strike, which helped a lot. We now have Spinning Strike procs, but they're not as effective. It is possible that Force in Balance did more damage as well as it only struck 3 targets. Force in Balance also had a range of 30 meters, meaning we could nuke people from a safe distance; and it was great utility too. Personally, I'd love to see the ability back to something like this: hit less targets but deal more damage and have a 30 meter range.

 

And finally, another thing we suffer from (shared issue with lethality operatives) is that we require a lot of GCDs to get our damage going. I don't really see the point of having both Sever Force and Force Breach. They could easily be combined into one ability. Perhaps Squelch could have a bit longer duration and allow its dot to be spread as well. Also, we need another button to click. Serenity Strike is awesome, but I'd like to see Project back in some shape or another (mainly because it's yellow damage and has a bit of range which suits the playstyle).

 

Those are my opinions after having been back for about a month.

Kinda missing the whole point of the spec. Your a dot spec and dot specs means attacking the many not the one. Deception's focus is on eliminating the one so If you want single target focus then play a deception sin. To do otherwise renders playing deception pointless. Deception is the king of one on one within the assassin class trio.

Further more what your basically angling for is to have more survival, more single target dmg and they ability to dot the many so a hybridization of the three specs into a super assassin A.k.a merc 2.0. Yes you'd basically be an OP merc we don't need another merc lite or sniper lite. Accept your role your a dot spec attack the many. As it stands now Bioware will never address the glaring obvious factors that make Merc's, snipers and jugs OP because all those I win kiddies who rely on those crutch classes would up and quit and they can't afford to lose that much of the player base. Otherwise they would have addressed this 3 years ago!

Kinda missing the whole point of the spec. Your a dot spec and dot specs means attacking the many not the one. Deception's focus is on eliminating the one so If you want single target focus then play a deception sin. To do otherwise renders playing deception pointless. Deception is the king of one on one within the assassin class trio.

 

Further more what your basically angling for is to have more survival, more single target dmg and they ability to dot the many so a hybridization of the three specs into a super assassin A.k.a merc 2.0. Yes you'd basically be an OP merc we don't need another merc lite or sniper lite. Accept your role your a dot spec attack the many. As it stands now Bioware will never address the glaring obvious factors that make Merc's, snipers and jugs OP because all those I win kiddies who rely on those crutch classes would up and quit and they can't afford to lose that much of the player base. Otherwise they would have addressed this 3 years ago!

Balance was always a DoT-spec. The only thing I'm angling for is sacrificing some of our AoE potential for greater sustained damage. I'm not saying this because I want the spec to rival Infiltration/Assassination, I'm saying this because that is how the spec operated in the past and since then Bioware has taken steps to increase our AoE damage at the cost of our single-target damage. I would like to see them balance it out a bit better than what they have. In patch 1.7 I could kill a healer but these days it feels like I can barely threaten them unless there is someone else attacking them as well, and then it is not my damage that is the main threat but rather my controlling capabilities (interrupts & stuns).

As for our survivability; I don't think I suggested anything that would directly increase it, but kudos for reading between the lines. By increasing the range of our Force in Balance and having Project as a DPS ability, our survivability would go up because we'd be able to deal damage from a safer distance. This is something I truly enjoyed back in the day. Going against any other melee class in a straight up one on one meant you'd lose. You had to dart in and out of melee. Such survivability is way more fun than clicking a button and seeing your healthbar heal to full.

You need to try to use Serenity Strike while you have 3 dots ticking on your target. I don't think Shadow Strike was ever part of the rotation, except maybe in the opener. Double Strike was your main attack that proc'ed your Force Crush aka Squelch.

Secondly, Serenity truly starts to shine when your target hits 30% health. Squelch hits like a freight train and your Spinning Strike is usable on CD.

I don't think Shadow Strike was ever part of the rotation, except maybe in the opener. Double Strike was your main attack that proc'ed your Force Crush aka Squelch.

Shadow Strike was part of the Balance Shadow's rotation, but it was a long time ago. Back in the day when our Force Regeneration was managed through DoTs and our Force Suppression charges. In those days, every time a Force Suppression charge was consumed it returned a small amount of force. Compare that to today's model, where we have a chance every time we swing our lightsaber to be granted a small amount of force. I'd say that the previous design was objectively better because it was intrinsic; there was a synergy between the abilities you used the mechanics behind how the class operates. Compare these two videos:

1.7 force regen: https://youtu.be/P2CWIFU7bz4

2.0 (current) force regen: https://youtu.be/Y_xBADgTQfE

Sorry for going out on a bit of a tangent. With this I just want to say that I've been around for a long time and I've always had a keen interest for this spec. I'm a bit of a game design aficionado and, to me, the Balance spec was a perfect example of how abilities and mechanics could synergize in order to create compelling gameplay. What Bioware did to the spec in 2.0 was criminal. And because I liked the spec so much I have kept tabs on it over the years, even if it has not been my main spec. Today it might be. I recently returned to the game and I find the spec to be very enjoyable, despite some of its annoying shortcomings.

The only trouble with Hatred is the Force Management it's difficult to sustain if we had Dark Embrace like Deception it would take away the reliability to use SS as Filler and everyone knows you have to use it with Hatred, Deception you don't and even if for some reason your Force Management drops even though it shouldn't then you use Force Cloak (which you should only use to refresh recklessness Ofc) and Dark Embrace is active again for them healthy Force Regen points.

tbh there is no issues at all with sin. I think sin is in a good place atm, not buffs or nerfs needed.

tbh there is no issues at all with sin. I think sin is in a good place atm, not buffs or nerfs needed.

How is fixing Hatred Force Management a buff? it allows a true rotation most classes that don't have a build up system shouldn't need to use their standard attack, whereas for JK/SW it's different because of the build up management system.

Truthfully Hatred just needs Dark Embrace for it's (While in stealth mode, or 15 seconds after leaving stealth mode, force regeneration is increased by 25%) However even the Darkswell Passive (Maul grants 15 seconds of Dark Embrace, While Dark Embrace is active all damage taken is reduced by 15%.) would make sense the pulls Hatred does is super dangerous and can really cause you die.

But either way if we just had Dark Embrace that would be a much welcomed change.

The only trouble with Hatred is the Force Management it's difficult to sustain if we had Dark Embrace like Deception it would take away the reliability to use SS as Filler and everyone knows you have to use it with Hatred, Deception you don't and even if for some reason your Force Management drops even though it shouldn't then you use Force Cloak (which you should only use to refresh recklessness Ofc) and Dark Embrace is active again for them healthy Force Regen points.

Please check the videos in my post above yours, think you may find them interesting.

I think our force management was way better in classic SWTOR. Sadly, however, I don't think they could ever go back to that system. If they did we'd have far too much force regen.

Shadow Strike was part of the Balance Shadow's rotation, but it was a long time ago. Back in the day when our Force Regeneration was managed through DoTs and our Force Suppression charges. In those days, every time a Force Suppression charge was consumed it returned a small amount of force. Compare that to today's model, where we have a chance every time we swing our lightsaber to be granted a small amount of force. I'd say that the previous design was objectively better because it was intrinsic; there was a synergy between the abilities you used the mechanics behind how the class operates. Compare these two videos:

 

1.7 force regen: https://youtu.be/P2CWIFU7bz4

2.0 (current) force regen: https://youtu.be/Y_xBADgTQfE

 

Sorry for going out on a bit of a tangent. With this I just want to say that I've been around for a long time and I've always had a keen interest for this spec. I'm a bit of a game design aficionado and, to me, the Balance spec was a perfect example of how abilities and mechanics could synergize in order to create compelling gameplay. What Bioware did to the spec in 2.0 was criminal. And because I liked the spec so much I have kept tabs on it over the years, even if it has not been my main spec. Today it might be. I recently returned to the game and I find the spec to be very enjoyable, despite some of its annoying shortcomings.

I had a discussion a year or so ago with someone about this very thing. They told me I misremembered Shadow Strike as part of the rotation. Glad to see I was right! It's hard to remember the ancient times. This is back when Serenity Strike didn't even exist, right?

What Bioware did to the spec in 2.0 was criminal.

I still remember the massive backlash on the 2.0 PTS that they completely ignored. 1.7 Madness Assassin will always remain the most interesting spec in this game. Rest in Peace.

I had a discussion a year or so ago with someone about this very thing. They told me I misremembered Shadow Strike as part of the rotation. Glad to see I was right! It's hard to remember the ancient times. This is back when Serenity Strike didn't even exist, right?

Correct Serenity Strike was kind of a late addition, but a good one. The spec really needed another button to click.

I still remember the massive backlash on the 2.0 PTS that they completely ignored. 1.7 Madness Assassin will always remain the most interesting spec in this game. Rest in Peace.

Couldn't agree more, R.I.P. ...

Current Balance/Serenity/Madness/Hatred is a band-aid, though. It kind of has the same buttons, but not the same synergy. Not at all.

Please check the videos in my post above yours, think you may find them interesting.

 

I think our force management was way better in classic SWTOR. Sadly, however, I don't think they could ever go back to that system. If they did we'd have far too much force regen.

I will have to take a look I never played hatred in is glory days I was too busy being a smash monkey when fury was called rage ha

Isn’t hatred sin still the best pressure spec in the game? With star parse on I’ve seen my dps peak at 71k when I dot spread and use the recklessness> death field combo. I feel like it can still pressure healers to the point where its other weaknesses are justifiable from a balancing perspective. I mean 13k dps games are no joke. Even if it’s “fluff” it will still invalidate a healer and open up doors for hardswap.

I can agree that the weaknesses are justifiable, I just don't like the direction the spec has gone. Serenity always had AoE pressure, but we had this AoE pressure at the cost of burst. Today the AoE pressure is out of hand and it feels like it has been at the cost of our single-target sustained damage. I had a game yesterday when I got 7,5k dps. It's nowhere near 13k but it was the highest I've seen since returning to the game (in December) and it was a game where I was allowed to DoT-spread a lot. But I didn't get many kills, truth be told. In fact, I got 1 kill, and the enemy team only had 2 healers. When I didn't spread my DoTs I focused on attacking them but it was to little avail. They both had 0 deaths.

Consider the changes that Force in Balance/Death Field has gone through; it used to strike three targets in the past and was then buffed to five and then buffed to eight. The Force Suppression/Deathmark charges it applied used to be a 10 stack but today it's 15 stacks. It was impossible to make use of all the Force Suppression stacks unless the DoTs could be spread faster, so they implement that and for a while (I believe it was in early 3.x or late 2.x) Serenity was overpowered because Force in Balance would spread the DoTs. To balance this they reduced its range from 30 meters to 10! And, in their words, because of how powerful DoT-spreading was they also had to reduce the radius of the ability from 8 meters to 5 meters...

Consider also that Force Suppression charges, when consumed, would return a bit of Force, meaning our Force regeneration was much smoother back in the day. We lost this in 2.0 and they haven't really done anything to make the generation smoother; we're still forced to fall back on saber strike every so often. So, yeah, DoT-spreading is powerful but it has contributed to so many changes that has just made the spec more boring. The design in 1.x was elegant; Force in Balance would hit three targets and debuff them because that was as many targets the player was likely to be able to keep DoTs on and if they did this they were rewarded with a burst of force regeneration which made their sustained damage higher. That's good design.

DoT-spreading isn't.

I don't feel like taking my 5.x Shadows and Sins into ranked nowadays. I got silver in S7 ranked on my serenity shadow. Looking back, S7 ended with the 5.0 expansion. Back then, merc/mandos were free kills, maras weren't so stronk, and sage/sorc heals were way OP. It's not that Serenity/Hatred was better back then, it's just that now the class balance is heavily tuned toward melee burst and godmode DCD buttons and defensives.

So I guess we serenity shadows are fine, but don't ask us to quickly 1v1 a side node anymore. It's considerably more difficult in this meta. May as well go infiltration.

Hello there,

I've come back again in the game after two years and I've tried to figure out tha greater changes in Assassins but I have some confusion.

Since I don't want to spec it as a tank, I can't understand what's the current best PVE oriented build between Hatred and Deception.

I know I know that a perfect answer could be: "play your favourite one" but I don't want to use an underpowered character just becuase I'm used to one particoular build. I know also that Sin has been nerfed from the last time I used it, but no problem, that's how these games work.

So, in the end, what's better? I can't find an updated guide on dulfy. What to do?

Thank you

Hello there,

I've come back again in the game after two years and I've tried to figure out tha greater changes in Assassins but I have some confusion.

 

Since I don't want to spec it as a tank, I can't understand what's the current best PVE oriented build between Hatred and Deception.

I know I know that a perfect answer could be: "play your favourite one" but I don't want to use an underpowered character just becuase I'm used to one particoular build. I know also that Sin has been nerfed from the last time I used it, but no problem, that's how these games work.

 

So, in the end, what's better? I can't find an updated guide on dulfy. What to do?

Thank you

Hatred is a bit better, but in general they are both average at best so if you have a big dislike towards Hatred then play Deception.