Hi all,

 

It's been awhile since I've considered building my tanking gear on my Shadow. After a couple of weeks, I'm nearly finished, only need two implants, belt, wrists and 1 relic at 248 (they are currently Gemini 3)

 

I sit at around 33% Shield Chance, 49% Absorb

 

What percentages should I be looking to sit at augmented and unbuffed?

 

The answer will help me determine which implants I should use and which augments I'll slot.

 

Many thanks!

 

(I'm asking here as the guides I've looked at either: Don't need updating/haven't been updated since '17)

Edited September 1, 2018 by Farstrider

This thread is up-to date for current optimal stats http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622

 

Although I'm not sure how optimal it really is. 4000 some odd points in defense seems like a waste to me.

 

I assume you want PvE, since PvP tanks are still better off in full dps gear.

 

You want about 2000 points in shield, 1700 or so in absorb. Defense is a personal choice, but the difference from 2500 defense to 4000 is so minimal that I run with the 248 set bonuses, and crafted 246 warding Bs and the low-defense crafted 246 shield and and absorb enhancements since the extra endurance is often more useful than a miniscule increase in defense.

Tanking stats are usually slightly different for each person. General rule of thumb tho is 2000 shield and 1500 absorb. For mods all tank mods are useless and should either be replaced with either lethal b or regular lethal mods. Personally i run the regular lethal mods as 135k health is more than enough for all content and 500 more dps helps. My exact build is 5 absorb enhancements 4 absorb augments. 5 shield enhancements and 10 shield augments. I also run both dps relics.

Yea the people above outline it well in regards to gearing, here is an updated spreadsheet which indicates exactly what you need and how many of all. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit#gid=350211635

 

The advised stats are what I think most tanks are using for endgame PvE content, for everything else stats aren't really important which is why you find few people discussing / updating guides about it.

This thread is up-to date for current optimal stats http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622

 

Although I'm not sure how optimal it really is. 4000 some odd points in defense seems like a waste to me.

 

I assume you want PvE, since PvP tanks are still better off in full dps gear.

 

You want about 2000 points in shield, 1700 or so in absorb. Defense is a personal choice, but the difference from 2500 defense to 4000 is so minimal that I run with the 248 set bonuses, and crafted 246 warding Bs and the low-defense crafted 246 shield and and absorb enhancements since the extra endurance is often more useful than a miniscule increase in defense.

 

that guide is far out of date... i suggest use one of these two. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=949300 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit#gid=350211635

that guide is far out of date... i suggest use one of these two. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=949300 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit#gid=350211635

 

I make suggestions on what I find to be the most useful guides. The older guide has 248 gear with 236 augs, it's not far out of date. More importantly, it has stats for the lower tier gear rather than just 248 end-game top-tier gear and actual numbers to aim for, which I look at rather than 'x number of enhancements, y number of augments'

 

It's a personal preference, I realize, and the hardest content I do is MM flashpoints and the occassional SM Op, but as a healer I don't want a main tank gearing for maximum dps, I want them gearing for survivability with mid-range dps. I've healed so-called tanks in dps-optimized gear and it is a pita. They get put on my ignore list more often than not.

I make suggestions on what I find to be the most useful guides. The older guide has 248 gear with 236 augs, it's not far out of date. More importantly, it has stats for the lower tier gear rather than just 248 end-game top-tier gear and actual numbers to aim for, which I look at rather than 'x number of enhancements, y number of augments'

 

It's a personal preference, I realize, and the hardest content I do is MM flashpoints and the occassional SM Op, but as a healer I don't want a main tank gearing for maximum dps, I want them gearing for survivability with mid-range dps. I've healed so-called tanks in dps-optimized gear and it is a pita. They get put on my ignore list more often than not.

 

I mean I've "tanked" mm fp and sm ops on a vigi guardian plenty of times. But its not optimal for the role.

 

Honest as long as the person is running shield/absorb enhancements, they're probably fine. I use high endurance dps mods with high endurance tank enhancements because def is so near asymptote anyway.

 

Honest as long as the person is running shield/absorb enhancements, they're probably fine. I use high endurance dps mods with high endurance tank enhancements because def is so near asymptote anyway.

Sorry, I think I came across a bit grouchy. I've just had a pretty rough time trying to pug with my heals. Got a couple tanks in 240+ gear who didn't even have 1000 points in shield/absorb. It makes an easy flashpoint a lot harder if you're constantly throwing out what should be your emergency heals.

 

I've moved my heals to pvp group content mostly for group-finder activities. It's far less stressful than pugging with a bad tank.

 

I did not mean to say that tanks with some dps-gear aren't fine, you do get diminishing returns at higher numbers.

I make suggestions on what I find to be the most useful guides. The older guide has 248 gear with 236 augs, it's not far out of date. More importantly, it has stats for the lower tier gear rather than just 248 end-game top-tier gear and actual numbers to aim for, which I look at rather than 'x number of enhancements, y number of augments'

 

It's a personal preference, I realize, and the hardest content I do is MM flashpoints and the occassional SM Op, but as a healer I don't want a main tank gearing for maximum dps, I want them gearing for survivability with mid-range dps. I've healed so-called tanks in dps-optimized gear and it is a pita. They get put on my ignore list more often than not.

 

It's outdated not because it covers older gear. But because the mathematical model for alacrity is wrong in those calculations. Few months after last updates in that thread people discovered so called "alacrity tiers" - cetain numbers of alacrity that directly affect your GCD. If you have any number of alacrity inbetween those tiers, it's a waste, and if you follow that thread you posted, you will be wasting alacrity.

Sorry, I think I came across a bit grouchy. I've just had a pretty rough time trying to pug with my heals. Got a couple tanks in 240+ gear who didn't even have 1000 points in shield/absorb. It makes an easy flashpoint a lot harder if you're constantly throwing out what should be your emergency heals.

 

I've moved my heals to pvp group content mostly for group-finder activities. It's far less stressful than pugging with a bad tank.

 

I did not mean to say that tanks with some dps-gear aren't fine, you do get diminishing returns at higher numbers.

People need to ask themselves if lazy healing is just as acceptabke as lazy tank gearing. If ur role is tank, gear for optimal survivability, unless the group asks for, or needs more dps for enrage timers. Any survivability that is negkected just makes the healers job more difficult, even if its doable.

 

Of course people have a right to, and likely will, gear however they want. But you can also ignore and/or not group with whoever you dont like, too.

Edited September 4, 2018 by olagatonjedi

People need to ask themselves if lazy healing is just as acceptabke as lazy tank gearing. If ur role is tank, gear for optimal survivability, unless the group asks for, or needs more dps for enrage timers. Any survivability that is negkected just makes the healers job more difficult, even if its doable.

 

Of course people have a right to, and likely will, gear however they want. But you can also ignore and/or not group with whoever you dont like, too.

 

It's not really lazy tank gearing, it's gearing yourself to be far more useful in a boss fight and less susceptible to spike damage. I am not sure if you have healed much nightmare content but my personal experiance from healing nightmare is that tanks die from spike damage far more than they die from "lazy healing". Gearing for more endurance makes this far less common and if the tank then decides to go for power or defence is of little importance to me, it's hardly noticeable in terms of Tank DTPS.

 

High endurance mods/enhancements are an advantage and if you don't use them, regardless if you use the power version or the defence version for the mods, you are making it more difficult for the healers. The decision to use Power or Defence as the stat, however, is a bit of a tossup, the damage reduction you gain from the extra defence is negligible and the extra DPS you gain from the power is hardly noticeable.

Edited September 6, 2018 by RikuvonDrake

It's not really lazy tank gearing, it's gearing yourself to be far more useful in a boss fight and less susceptible to spike damage. I am not sure if you have healed much nightmare content but my personal experiance from healing nightmare is that tanks die from spike damage far more than they die from "lazy healing". Gearing for more endurance makes this far less common and if the tank then decides to go for power or defence is of little importance to me, it's hardly noticeable in terms of Tank DTPS.

 

High endurance mods/enhancements are an advantage and if you don't use them, regardless if you use the power version or the defence version for the mods, you are making it more difficult for the healers. The decision to use Power or Defence as the stat, however, is a bit of a tossup, the damage reduction you gain from the extra defence is negligible and the extra DPS you gain from the power is hardly noticeable.

Im not specifically talking about nightmare/master mode, because generally those ops have more 1 shot mechanics, and require much more skilled players. That said, there are plenty of times when a lesser attack that ends up wiping the group could have been mitigated more if the tank was better geared defensively. Also keep in mind the number of times a dps is sacrificed to save the tank when a choice between the two at low health must be made. Could that situation have been avoided in the first place if the healer hadnt been needing to overheal all the way up to that specific point? Its easy to point out flaws and solutions to a momentary situation (i.e. i died to a 1 shot, solution act sooner to avoid 1 shot), but there have been so many times ranging from SM to HM to MM that ive seen (and been, as i do heal as well) fights where the tank is getting pummelled by RNG, and you look down and he isnt even doing everything he can to prevent the pummelling, with non-defensive mods/enh/gear in place. And many reasons its seen as the healer being the problem - i.e. " why cant you keep him up, its only SM??"

Edited September 6, 2018 by olagatonjedi

There is no way I can argue against an imaginary non-realistic scenario, you gear as you wish but the consensus is high endurance mods/enhancements and power mods if you want the best performance and survivability. Edited September 6, 2018 by RikuvonDrake

There is no way I can argue against an imaginary non-realistic scenario, you gear as you wish but the consensus is high endurance mods/enhancements and power mods if you want the best performance and survivability.

 

You're 100% right, and I would further like to point out that its hardly "lazy" as tanks to gear optimally cannot just use vendored gear. You must craft, have someone craft, or spend inordinate amounts on the gtn. Or hope to get lucky with the atrocious drop rstes on 248 versions in command crates.

As an aside, Mk-5 gear will be craftable in the next update, which will be interesting.

There is no way I can argue against an imaginary non-realistic scenario, you gear as you wish but the consensus is high endurance mods/enhancements and power mods if you want the best performance and survivability.

Nobody asked you to. People take damage, many times that can be avoided or mitigated more than it is because of any number of reasons including non-optimized gearing and standing in stupid. That unnecessary damage has to be healed, so poor decisions by other players often falls on the healer to compensate.

 

Nothing imaginary or non-realistic about that.

If you're in a group of somewhat competent people dtps isn't going to be what wipes you. It's going to be people standing in stupid, failing mechanics or poor use of cooldowns (popping them all and having none left or not popping them at all when you need them). Taking power mods over defense makes very little difference in an actual fight (though I personally prefer to get defense). Still power mods are a totally valid (and arguably the best) method of gearing, and calling it 'lazy' is just plain silly.

If you're in a group of somewhat competent people dtps isn't going to be what wipes you. It's going to be people standing in stupid, failing mechanics or poor use of cooldowns (popping them all and having none left or not popping them at all when you need them). Taking power mods over defense makes very little difference in an actual fight (though I personally prefer to get defense). Still power mods are a totally valid (and arguably the best) method of gearing, and calling it 'lazy' is just plain silly.

The same can be said about every aspect of the game, tbh. If you have competent dps, you will meet dps checks. If you have competent healers, you will have no issues.

 

My whole premise is that not every group has competent everything, so there may be an aspect that needs to be subbed out - defense for more dps due to subpar dps in group, dps for defense due to subpar play or poor healing. In premade groups, there is, and should be, more flexibility to cater to your regular ops group. In pug, it is expected that each person is focus geared for that specific role, including dwt.

In the actual end game content, dps timers are extremely tight, and any bit of extra dps you can pull as a tank helps the group just as much (if not more) that the little extra defense you're getting from warding mods (defense is already present on all enhancements and is pretty far into diminishing returns already). In any easier content (SM/HM ops or flashpoints exluding gods from the machine hm) if you're wiping, you've got other problems that require fixing and swapping out to defense mods isn't going to fix them. I've yet to be in any group that was doing okay, but wiped because the healers weren't able to keep up with dtps. It's nearly always burst damage that is taken unnecessarily (either standing in stupid, bad tanking or bad cooldown usage) or failed mechanics. Neither of those will see marked improvement from a few extra percent defense chance. Edited September 6, 2018 by AdjeYo

I guess I have several questions now.

 

 

tl, dr: I would like to know thoughts on using single-high endurance enhancements over double-highs, thoughts on subbing high end Adv 54 enhancements over optimized 52 enhancements, and what people think about the incoming damage profile in GOTM relative to defense chance?

Edited September 7, 2018 by phalczen

And while this may not directly apply to Shadows/Assassins, because they don't have damage-dealing skills linked to mitigation stats, let's look at the case of Guardian/Juggernaut Riposte/Retaliation. I looked at three parses by Sim'thar of the Leviathan server in RAV, TOS, and Tyth veteran mode. Riposte accounts for 12-13% of their outgoing attacks in those fights. Most of the riposte usage is probably after Guardian Slash, which procs it, but GS' cooldown is 12 seconds and riposte is only 6, so there is potential for some use while GS is still on cd. It seems like having a higher defense chance might be beneficial in that scenario.

Just considering the Defense Chance loss from swapping from Warding B 52s to Lethal B 52s, and assuming optimized legendary 52 enhancements, that represents a difference of 22.88% defense chance to 17.90% defense chance, or a difference of 4.97%, and a gain of 1314 power which results in an additional 302 bonus damage to ALL outgoing attacks.

On face value, it seems like 302 bonus damage, which at a tank's normal 1.5s GCD is about 201 dps under conditions of sustained up-time, would be more beneficial than added ripostes because of higher Defense Chance. But let's do the math.

Riposte occurring 4.97% more often during defendable attacks … well, if its true that around 80% of the attacks during the Tyth 8-person vet mode fight are potentially defendable, then we're talking about riposte being potentially available during 80% of the time. It looks like most fights are around 244 seconds for TTK. It seems like that fight is longer than 4 minutes on story mode for my guild, but whatever. So, if we round up to 250s for convenience, that means around 200 seconds of the fight is available to be defended, and its about 166 GCDs total. Since GS has a CD of 12 seconds, that means we will get around 16 uses of GS in that time frame. GS proccing Riposte accounts for 16 uses of riposte. But, that also means there is a 6 second window 16 times during the fight where Riposte could be procced from a defended attack while GS is still on CD. If Defense Chance is, say 22.88%, then that could be 3 extra ripostes (19 total … 19 attacks out of 166 total is around 11%, close to the observed usage of riposte). If Defense Chance is 17.90% that's only 2 extra ripostes. So, that nearly 5% difference in defense chance might be one more riposte during that fight. So, what's the base damage of Riposte at level 70, around 2500? So one extra riposte in that 250 sec Tyth fight is 10 dps, versus the 201 dps I'd get from the Lethal 52B mods.

Is my analysis correct?

I would imagine the analysis would be similar for Vanguards/PTs and Energy Blast/Heat Blast which procs from successful shields, except that the impact of going from Legendary optimized 52s to Adv Steadfast 54s on shield chance is much, much less than the Defense Rating impacts. Furthermore, on fights with low incoming M/R, the impact of extra ripostes from extra Defense Chance is even less.

Again, this isn't completely relevant to the discussion of Shadows/Assassins per se, but I wanted to explore the notion of Defense Rating being nearly completely useless.

Just to give u a heads up heat blast is based of shielded attacks. I believe this also holds true for juggs. Also juggs benefit from the extra power for their force scream shield. Power directly affects how much this damage is absorbed. Edited September 8, 2018 by ZouYan

Also juggs benefit from the extra power for their force scream shield. Power directly affects how much this damage is absorbed.

True, but the difference is quite minimal. A full set of lethal b mods adds about 213 to bonus healing (which is what sonic barrier scales with). There's a good argument to be made for getting lethal mods over warding mods, but survivability not part of that argument.

that guide is far out of date... i suggest use one of these two. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=949300 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit#gid=350211635

 

Whats up with SMARTY recommending about 300 less shield/absorb than what people are saying is optimal here? Why does SMARTY want you to take crit over more DR?