Jump to content

Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!


CourtneyWoods

Recommended Posts

In lowbie pvp (L34) i find myself doing a lot of damage as Assault. Especially when ion pulse and hib crits >_<. Survivabilty is also great (my bubble) and the 30% cc immunity i find the cooldown to be short enough and its always there when i need it to kite / run away to survive.

 

Does this change in L55 warzones?

 

Pyro/assault "blooms" very early. At level 34, you have almost all of the useful talents/abilities, while many of your opponents have specs that rely on their top tier talents.

 

Assault is and always has been a stellar spec at low levels. Plus, you're fighting bads in lowbie PvP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 347
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

In lowbie pvp (L34) i find myself doing a lot of damage as Assault. Especially when ion pulse and hib crits >_<. Survivabilty is also great (my bubble) and the 30% cc immunity i find the cooldown to be short enough and its always there when i need it to kite / run away to survive.

 

Does this change in L55 warzones?

 

Ohh ya. Big time. Your biggest hitters RS, barely hits 6.5K. Most attacks barely deal 2K unless they critic. The shield lasts 12 sec, after which your left with your studry 29% armor. Much of the damage is dot based, which will be cleansed by healers.The spec has mediocre burst, mediocre sustained damage and weak survivability (that will go to avg. with 2.4 changes), on top of unreliable damage. The only pyro good quality is the constant snare.

 

If you like PT, play advanced prototype (AP), the middle tree. It takes a bit to get used to, but is way more effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ohh ya. Big time. Your biggest hitters RS, barely hits 6.5K. Most attacks barely deal 2K unless they critic. The shield lasts 12 sec, after which your left with your studry 29% armor. Much of the damage is dot based, which will be cleansed by healers.The spec has mediocre burst, mediocre sustained damage and weak survivability (that will go to avg. with 2.4 changes), on top of unreliable damage. The only pyro good quality is the constant snare.

 

If you like PT, play advanced prototype (AP), the middle tree. It takes a bit to get used to, but is way more effective.

 

By way more effective he means like kinda more effective. :rolleyes:

 

No matter what spec the class is a big *********** joke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rage is palpable.

 

I cannot say it is unjustified.

 

VG/PT used to be very competitive, and even sought after in groups, both PvE and PvP.

 

Now, we're several hundred, if not thousand in some instances, behind in DPS in PvE. (and I push top numbers in Assault spec...I could get higher #'s in hybrid, I'm stubborn, and refuse to play a spec I do not like, just to be on a leaderboard)

 

In PvP, I get laughed at by operative healers as I try to burn them down. I have had success vs Sorcs and Merc healers, but I can honestly say they probably weren't that good.

 

2.4 brings very little in terms of changes that appeal to me. DCD's, pfft. I'd rather be ~5% of snipers and marauders.

 

I can stay alive longer to produce fluff DPS numbers in a WZ and not have the burst to kill anything...GREAT! or, I can have DCD's in an OP/FP that I should NEVER be using, while still producing mediocre DPS...EVEN BETTER!

 

I understand the rage.

 

If it weren't for the fact I've given up all hope on MMO's achieving balance and producing content greater than can be consumed, hence me becoming a "casual" gamer, I'd be raging, too.

 

Beta: IA/Op/Concealment - nerfed PT and Merc/Firebug - nerfed

 

Live: Assy/Deception(pre 1.2) - nerfed Merc/PT - nerfed VG/Assault - nerfed Sniper - raid toon, guild fell apart.

 

Guess I just need to suck it up and main a SW/JK, to be competitive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot say it is unjustified.

 

VG/PT used to be very competitive, and even sought after in groups, both PvE and PvP.

 

Now, we're several hundred, if not thousand in some instances, behind in DPS in PvE. (and I push top numbers in Assault spec...I could get higher #'s in hybrid, I'm stubborn, and refuse to play a spec I do not like, just to be on a leaderboard)

 

In PvP, I get laughed at by operative healers as I try to burn them down. I have had success vs Sorcs and Merc healers, but I can honestly say they probably weren't that good.

 

2.4 brings very little in terms of changes that appeal to me. DCD's, pfft. I'd rather be ~5% of snipers and marauders.

 

I can stay alive longer to produce fluff DPS numbers in a WZ and not have the burst to kill anything...GREAT! or, I can have DCD's in an OP/FP that I should NEVER be using, while still producing mediocre DPS...EVEN BETTER!

 

I understand the rage.

 

If it weren't for the fact I've given up all hope on MMO's achieving balance and producing content greater than can be consumed, hence me becoming a "casual" gamer, I'd be raging, too.

 

Beta: IA/Op/Concealment - nerfed PT and Merc/Firebug - nerfed

 

Live: Assy/Deception(pre 1.2) - nerfed Merc/PT - nerfed VG/Assault - nerfed Sniper - raid toon, guild fell apart.

 

Guess I just need to suck it up and main a SW/JK, to be competitive.

 

I wasn't saying that his complaints aren't justified, but his perpetual the sky is falling attitude is getting annoying, and it accomplishes nothing. As bad as VG might be they are not in half a bad a spot as mfour suggests

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasn't saying that his complaints aren't justified, but his perpetual the sky is falling attitude is getting annoying, and it accomplishes nothing. As bad as VG might be they are not in half a bad a spot as mfour suggests

 

In PvE, I disagree.

 

PvP has too many variable, and a highly skilled player can excel with any class. Versus equally skilled players, it does have its glaring weaknesses.

 

The sky is not falling, but it is hard to go from driving a Ferrari to a Fiat. (and watching others getting upgrades almost every patch)

 

And I truly don't believe 2.0 PT/VG would be OP in 2.4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In PvE, I disagree.

 

PvP has too many variable, and a highly skilled player can excel with any class. Versus equally skilled players, it does have its glaring weaknesses.

 

The sky is not falling, but it is hard to go from driving a Ferrari to a Fiat. (and watching others getting upgrades almost every patch)

 

And I truly don't believe 2.0 PT/VG would be OP in 2.4.

 

Pre-2.0 pyro/assault PT/VG was OP pre-2.0. Had nothing changed except for the addition of shoulder cannon and HtL/HO.

 

 

 

I wasn't saying that his complaints aren't justified, but his perpetual the sky is falling attitude is getting annoying, and it accomplishes nothing. As bad as VG might be they are not in half a bad a spot as mfour suggests

 

 

 

110% agreed, I'm also very tired of the "the sky is falling" attitude. Waiting to get in game to test with new updated rail shot (wasn't in PTS notes), but I don't think I'll be mainswitching to my sniper or sorc for raiding anytime soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I logged into SWTOR when 2.4 launched hoping that maybe 2.4 would fix us at least a little bit, and although when playing tactics I am doing a little bit better than pre 2.4; I still can't do much of anything. At times I can burst down an enemy but only because that said enemy is not geared well, or simply lacks skill at the game. Its laughable trying to burst down certain classes, for instance; the Operative healer. They don't even need to try and fight me, they just sit there and laugh. I've played Vanguard sense launch, was a beta tester and have put in over 1000 hours into my Vanguard; and now after 2.0 I feel like a noob 98% of the time. It hurts to see the character I truly care about, put so much work into be destroyed. I use to be able to make a difference in a fight, whither in open world or warzones, now... The most useful thing I can do is bother a healer a little bit. People have said to me "Re-roll bro", but that's just the thing; I don't want to. I love my VANGAURD :)

 

Please Bioware, fix our class.

Edited by Daylooin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pre-2.0 pyro/assault PT/VG was OP pre-2.0. Had nothing changed except for the addition of shoulder cannon and HtL/HO..

 

The fact that no POSITIVE change happened to class except than getting shoulder cannon & HtL, which you expressed in half-truth, shows that the class has not developed well like other Advanced Classes. One culprit in this was the butchering of the crit rating ( which developers have said they might have overdone and plan to revise ) that hurt specs that had more crit damage boosting talents than overall damage increasing talents. What this meant was that specs that were designed to rely on big hits from crits to sustain their dps was hurt.

 

To make up for it there was some attempts to increase sustained abilities of such specs ( such as giving a % damage increase buff after force sweep to focus spec) but when compounded with negative changes to sustainable dps abilities of the Assault spec (which I pointed for you down below) it was unquestionably left behind and failed to scale to DPS norms of 2.0 as good as other specs.

 

If you claim no negative change has happened to AC then you have either:

1) Not played the Advanced Class before & after 2.0 and thus just talking through 2nd hand info you got.

2) Not even bothered reading patch notes, at least parts considering changes to Assault Specialist / Vanguard advanced class.

3) Consciously deny changes that have obviously happened for some reason.

 

For your information : Damage of plasma cell, which made up great portion of damage in PvE encounters, was butchered. Assault Plastique was changed from a dealing all of its damage at once into mediocre direct damage followed by a moderate dot. This made it arguably more useful for PvE but botched its use for PvP. It seems like change to AP was made to make it more appealing and to make up for excessive reduction of plasma cell dot but unfortunately both seem to have failed.

 

Also, PT/VG was OP only when you could use AP & Incendinary Round at 30m AND there was no internal cooldown on Ionic Accelerator.

 

I logged into SWTOR when 2.4 launched hoping that maybe 2.4 would fix us at least a little bit, and although when playing tactics I am doing a little bit better than pre 2.4; I still can't do much of anything. At times I can burst down an enemy but only because that said enemy is not geared well, or simply lacks skill at the game. Its laughable trying to burst down certain classes, for instance; the Operative healer. They don't even need to try and fight me, they just sit there and laugh. I've played Vanguard sense launch, was a beta tester and have put in over 1000 hours into my Vanguard; and now after 2.0 I feel like a noob 98% of the time. It hurts to see the character I truly care about, put so much work into be destroyed. I use to be able to make a difference in a fight, whither in open world or warzones, now... The most useful thing I can do is bother a healer a little bit. People have said to me "Re-roll bro", but that's just the thing; I don't want to. I love my VANGAURD :)

 

Please Bioware, fix our class.

 

This

;)

 

I have unsubscribed when original class answers came. After the "patched up response" and promised new changes I was hopeful that more changes would follow to "fix" the class and I resubbed but with 2.4 coming out with only half-hearted changes did it for me. I really loved the AC the second I stockstriked my first rebel at Ord Mantell during beta and stuck through all changes but I will not any more. Iam not into abusive relationships :D And no you cant have my preciousssssssss :rak_05: stuff.

Edited by Davionix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pre 2.0 PT wasn't OP, it was just ahead of the curve. Match Pre 2.0 with Post 2.0 Rage/Any other class. PT pre 2.0 was glass cannon, and no one learned that. It's just like Mercs and Operatives pre 1.2. No one countered them.

 

 

We had the best single target burst in the game. So much, that when elite warhero min-maxed Pyrotechs came up against PvP rookies, they would destroy them in 3-5 global cooldowns. Was it strange people cried murder? No.

Against equally geared opponents, Pyrotech was fairly balanced, its burst potential compensated by its fragility. However, add in a pocket healer and that vulnerability is pretty much negated, as a result the Pyrotech was the single best class to take down healers in premades.

 

In essence the tree was designed wrong. It shouldn't be possible to kill enemy players that are not AFK from 100-0 in less than 15 seconds for any class. Obviously healers would have to be tweaked somewhat to account for the lack of burst to counter them. So what they should have done -and attempted but failed- was decrease the burst of the spec to more reasonable levels, and increase sustained dps and survivability to compensate. However what they did was pretty much remove the burst, not compensating with higher sustained dps but in fact nerfing that too, and reducing survivability to boot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Top parses still have Assault/Pyro hundreds, sometimes thousands, of DPS behind snipers, 'slingers, marauders, sentinels, and 'mando/mercs.

 

While I respect KBN's math, the proof is there. No need for theory crafting, napkin math, etc. Parse it!

 

Go to DPS leaderboards, HM parses. You will see a LARGE disparity in DPS. Usually, very few VG/PT's on those lists. I have 5 #1 VG parses, and they are well below that of the above mentioned classes. Or, not within ~5%, or competitive.

 

2.0 PT/VG was 2.4 sniper/marauder. If the class was restored to it's former glory, it would not be OP, and I bet it would be quite competitive in DPS, within ~5%.

 

To argue this is just plain ignoring documented, factual information (parses).

Edited by T-Assassin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Top parses still have Assault/Pyro hundreds, sometimes thousands, of DPS behind snipers, 'slingers, marauders, sentinels, and 'mando/mercs.

 

While I respect KBN's math, the proof is there. No need for theory crafting, napkin math, etc. Parse it!

 

Go to DPS leaderboards, HM parses. You will see a LARGE disparity in DPS. Usually, very few VG/PT's on those lists. I have 5 #1 VG parses, and they are well below that of the above mentioned classes. Or, not within ~5%, or competitive.

 

2.0 PT/VG was 2.4 sniper/marauder. If the class was restored to it's former glory, it would not be OP, and I bet it would be quite competitive in DPS, within ~5%.

 

To argue this is just plain ignoring documented, factual information (parses).

 

:D_evil:Agreement: This is so true it's ridiculous. However there are so many PvPers who complained about PT/VG being "OP" that BioWare buffed their classes (if I remember correctly, I may be wrong about the buff) and nerfed ours. If they buff us back up again, those same players will do the same again. They don't want a challenge because then they'll have to actually try. I personally don't PvP at all. I will when we can choose between Arenas only and regular WZs only. But until then, I don't care at all about how VG does in PvP.

 

:D_evil:Statement: When 2.4 went live, I parsed with Assault and got only 2300-2400 DPS. When I parsed with Tactics, I only got the same numbers. With the hybrid, I got ~2550.

 

:D_evil:Admission: I will admit that I had 17 72 pieces, with the rest being 69s, full set bonus, one Underworld relic of Serendipitous Assault, one Arkanian Relic of Boundless Ages, two [Artifact] Microfilament Reflex-D Enhancers, and a Verpine Boltblaster's MK-2 Device. All augmented with Aim augments and all geared with power mods. I also parsed while not stimmed. I now have 2 78 pieces and my average DPS went from 2550 up to 2600. Woop-dee-doo! The ONLY time I EVER went to or above 3000 DPS was with my burst attack. And that only went up to 3020 AFTER getting those two 78s.

 

:D_evil:Statement: HOWEVER, that's still a big difference between the single skill trees and the Hybrid. Last I saw was that Hybrid builds weren't supposed to be more powerful than a single skill tree. That's not how things are. I'm feeling like I'm holding down my guild when it comes to doing OPS because of my low DPS. And we're a casual guild. Not a hard core raiding guild. That's saying something.

 

:D_evil:Statement: It's not a lack of skill, and it's not just PvPers that are feeling these effects. PvE is feeling it too. Badly I might add. The facts are the facts. It's been written down and proven. My only hope is that with the next expansion they release it will change, but I think they said it won't change for a long time. They're "happy with the way it is now".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Were vanguards that good pre-2.0? I was very far away from 50 at that time and I didn't get the chance to experience end game content.

 

we got nerfed because of all the PvP whiners that would whine about AP + HIB. I used to run my 4 piece commando PvP bonus and had near 50% crit rate on HIB and managed to pull about 1400 in TFB on a normal basis. I don't know if that's good but I was told by other guild members at the time that 1600 in actual ops was not easy to maintain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:D_evil:Statement: I'm gonna resurrect this thread for a minuet with this post. It's probably going to annoy some members.

 

:D_evil:Rhetorical Query: But hey, BioWare values all their player's feedback, right?

 

:D_evil:Statement: So I did some testing (again), and I found that the Assault tree in PvE CAN do the same 2700 DPS as Tactics/Assault Hybrid. But ONLY if you are very very precise and manage it 100% perfectly. And that only happens on a Dummy. I do good reaching 2100 in a boss fight when only moving a little bit. I drop down to 2300 or lower DPS if I messed up my rotation. Burst DPS is great. 4k burst in less than full Underworld/Verpine.

 

:D_evil:Observation: It is however only possible if you get 8k HIB crits almost every time. Unfortunately HIB only hits 7k-8k every so often. It's also very very difficult to manage the energy cells correctly to get to the 2700. And I was in lousy gear, as my post before this one indicates.

 

:D_evil:Statement: However with the Tactics/Assault Hybrid, you can do 2700-2800 DPS with no trouble at all. Not having 8k HIB is no fun, but I'm doing better. I can reach 2500 easily in a boss fight (provided I don't move all the time dodging things). I only drop down to 2500 DPS against the dummy if I messed up my rotation badly and deplete all my energy cells. Hybrid burst is 3k, but for the tradeoff of constant higher DPS than full Assault DPS is worth it.

 

:D_evil:Statement: Tactics is still just as bad if not worse than Assault is in PvE.

 

:D_evil:Disclosure: I do have to point out that I do test unstimmed but fully buffed. Also at the point of posting this I have reached full 72 (minus one armoring (69), one Implant ([Artifact] Microfilament Reflex-D Enhancer), and one relic (Arkanian Relic of Boundless Ages).

 

:D_evil:Conclusion: So Assault has been improved upon and is better than it was after 2.0. But it still needs some work.

 

:D_evil:Suggestion: If it didn't use up the Energy cells so much, or if each ability did more damage (including HIB doing no less than 4500-5k minimum) it would be better or even with the Hybrid. Something that would help with Energy Cell management is if HIB returned more Energy cells than it currently does. Both of those suggestions would be even better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:D_evil:Observation: It is however only possible if you get 8k HIB crits almost every time. Unfortunately HIB only hits 7k-8k every so often. It's also very very difficult to manage the energy cells correctly to get to the 2700. And I was in lousy gear, as my post before this one indicates.

.

 

Do you take Rapid Recharge? and based on your personal impressions do you think having 1 alacrity enhancement would help? or hurt? The other question if you have Rapid Recharge are you using Reserve Power Cell and Rapid Reload on cooldown/as necessary?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you take Rapid Recharge? and based on your personal impressions do you think having 1 alacrity enhancement would help? or hurt? The other question if you have Rapid Recharge are you using Reserve Power Cell and Rapid Reload on cooldown/as necessary?

 

Answer: The answers in the order of your queries are Yes, hurt, yes.

 

Recitation: Keep in mind I didn't say it's impossible to do. Just very very difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
Do you take Rapid Recharge? and based on your personal impressions do you think having 1 alacrity enhancement would help? or hurt? The other question if you have Rapid Recharge are you using Reserve Power Cell and Rapid Reload on cooldown/as necessary?

 

Alacrity will Hurt assault/pyro rotations as it makes the GCD slightly less than 1.5, but the proc can only happen once ever 6 seconds (4GCDs for 0 alacrity, 5GCDs for 0-25% alacrity) so unless you can somehow hit 25% alacrity, dont get any (@25% alacrity the GCD is 1.2 seconds)

 

:D_evil:Statement::D_evil:Observation: It is however only possible if you get 8k HIB crits almost every time. Unfortunately HIB only hits 7k-8k every so often. It's also very very difficult to manage the energy cells correctly to get to the 2700. And I was in lousy gear, as my post before this one indicates.

 

:D_evil:Statement: However with the Tactics/Assault Hybrid, you can do 2700-2800 DPS with no trouble at all. Not having 8k HIB is no fun, but I'm doing better. I can reach 2500 easily in a boss fight (provided I don't move all the time dodging things). I only drop down to 2500 DPS against the dummy if I messed up my rotation badly and deplete all my energy cells. Hybrid burst is 3k, but for the tradeoff of constant higher DPS than full Assault DPS is worth it.

 

well with the 20% armor debuff on a 1-mill hp dummy, I can parse about 2950 on near-BiS Underworld (replace 1 armoring with arkanian for the set bonus, and another with commando 34 boots I got when gearing up my tank with 34 enhancements, and the implants/earpiece were sadly comm gear - Boltblaster Earpiece: Crit/Surge and Med-Tech Implants x2: Power/Surge) when going assault

 

There is a simple priority I mathed up to do this, and it never runs out of energy either!

 

GCD Energy Procs Cooldowns/Skill Remaining energy

1 (any) Incendiary Round 68, 76, 84

2 (any) HiB Available High Impact Bolt 84

2 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92

3 (any) Stock Strike 68, 76, 84

4 (any) Ionic Accelerator High Impact Bolt 84, 92, 100

4 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92

5 (any) Assault Plastique 68, 76, 84

6 (any) Reserve Powercell Ion Pulse 76, 84, 92

6 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92

7 (any) Ion Pulse 68, 76, 84

8 (any) Ionic Accelerator High Impact Bolt 84, 92, 100

8 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92

9 (any) Stock Strike 68, 76, 84

10 84 Ion Pulse 76

10 <84 Reserve Powercell Ion Pulse 76, 84

10 <84 Recharge Cells Ion Pulse 100

10 <84 Hammer Shots 76, 84

11 (any) Ion Pulse 68, 76, 84

12 (any) Ionic Accelarator High Impact Bolt 84, 92, 100

12 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92

 

Oh and throw in Combat Focus + Shoulder cannon off cooldown, time Attack Adrenals with Shoulder cannon + Combat Focus.

 

And in ops dont be afraid to use energy shield - it can add up to 100dps over the fight from using it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:d_evil: Statement: First off, you speak of hitting 2950 on a debuffed dummy with 1mil HP. I'm using the regular dummy.

 

:d_evil: Statement: I should point out that at the time I posted that, I was 75% 72s and still had arkanian implants, earpiece and relics. I now have full 72, Oroconian implants, earpiece, one Arkanian relic, one 78 Armoring in the Bracers with a 72 Mod, and 78s in my belt, 2 in chest, and 2 in offhand, all Armorings and Mods, and am hitting 2925 with ease.

 

:d_evil: Admission: I will admit I had a Nano Reflex stim active, so it's more like ~2850. So one can imagine how high it will be at full 78s.

 

:d_evil: Statement: It is required, however, that the numbers come from the default dummy (though it doesn't really matter since the damage output is still going to be the same on any of them). I used your rotation TACaMossie, and I must say that, while it is very efficient with it's power cell usage, the full Assault tree is still not hitting at, or higher than, the Hybrid like it needs to. I could only reach 2800. And I was using the same Nano Reflex stim and getting HIB crits constantly. I also never used any Attack adrenals. For yours or mine.

 

:d_evil: Conclusion: That being the case, on a dummy with the Armor Debuff, Hybrid will still out perform the Full Assault tree.

 

:d_evil: Admission: I've been proven wrong about the power cell depleting too fast. However, the results don't lie. Assault just doesn't put out enough damage to be at or better than the Hybrid. It's close, but no dice.

Edited by HKtheindomitable
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...