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Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.


Sweeet

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I was PvP'ing after the patch, we won some, we lost some, but in each WZ it was the same - burst or be burst, no middle ground or strategy at all, just people bursting people down as quickly as possible.

 

Everyone I speak to in my guild, or on the republic fleet, all think that the time-to-kill is far too short. The only reason people are still pvp'ing is because they have a better chance at getting gear now with the increased rewards, or just because they have nothing better to do, not because they actually enjoy it. I actually think most people are under the delusion that when they get full BM gear things will get better, but alas they will not. The TTK is still just as short with full BM gear as it is with full Recruit gear.

 

You've turned PvP into a twitchy mess Bioware, I really don't understand your reasoning for this? Not one person I've spoken too has been able to come up with a logical reason for you wanting to take the strategic gameplay out of PvP. I hardly think this was a mistake, for some bizarre reason you actually thought people would enjoy a more twitch based experience, which just proves how out of touch you are with your target audience and how utterly dyer your metrics are.

 

I know you think that us forum dwellers are the vocal minority Bioware, but I promise you this, the feeling is mutual with the majority of non-forum dwellers within game, I can assure you. Just because people are PvP'ing at the moment does not mean that they are enjoying these changes and lack of strategy brought with 1.2

 

Your only hope at saving PvP and not losing a massive chunk of your subscribers, is either to reduce burst, or make our health pools larger to cope with the incoming burst and then readjust healing to match the larger health pools. I see no other way you can fix this mess you've created.

 

That is all.

Edited by Sweeet
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Actually on my server the republic side is much less "squishy" then the imps.

 

As an imp myself I tend to confront a lot of pubs mostly Sages\Shadows which are damn hard to kill... it's require a full DOTs set up and burst damage just to make them stop and try to run\heal.

 

The short ttk is mostly happening on our server when 2-3 players are fighting same 1 enemy.

Edited by lironBD
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TTK is a little low, but as an above poster mentioned, this really comes down to how many people are focusing a target. As a sorc healer, I can usually keep someone up in 2 vs 2, but 3+ on my target and it's toast. That seems fair.

 

If anything, more strategy is needed as simply rushing in and expecting your healers to keep everyone up isn't viable.

 

Tanks actually have a decent role to play in keeping other people alive, and you must absolutely protect your healers and not let them get in a position to be FF'ed, as well as peel anyone who gets close to them.

 

<.< On my alts, I pvp for exp. Omg it is sweet!

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All PvP feels like to me now is a short sharp fix with no substance. I get in, get my reward, then get out. It's not satisfying and after 5-6 games I'm burnt out. I'm literally there to gear up and do my daily's, nothing else.

 

Pre 1.2 I could play all night regardless of whether I won or lost, because PvP had substance and I was playing to participate, not for the rewards. This also seems to be the general consensus with the people I talk to in-game.

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I wanted to add; There is a way to "add" a massive chunk to your health. It's called -actually- planning/building your gear, and not just grabbing a complete matched set. Complete sets are good, but there are so many tools at your disposal to customize your gear and fortify your weakness, that I've found most pvp'ers dont/won't do,
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I wanted to add; There is a way to "add" a massive chunk to your health. It's called -actually- planning/building your gear, and not just grabbing a complete matched set. Complete sets are good, but there are so many tools at your disposal to customize your gear and fortify your weakness, that I've found most pvp'ers dont/won't do,

 

Like Assassin/Shadow Tanks in their Tank sets but with DPS mods? Yeah I've met those, they're not fun.

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I was PvP'ing after the patch, we won some, we lost some, but in each WZ it was the same - burst or be burst, no middle ground or strategy at all, just people bursting people down as quickly as possible.

 

Everyone I speak to in my guild, or on the republic fleet, all think that the time-to-kill is far too short. The only reason people are still pvp'ing is because they have a better chance at getting gear now with the increased rewards, or just because they have nothing better to do, not because they actually enjoy it. I actually think most people are under the delusion that when they get full BM gear things will get better, but alas they will not. The TTK is still just as short with full BM gear as it is with full Recruit gear.

 

You've turned PvP into a twitchy mess Bioware, I really don't understand your reasoning for this? Not one person I've spoken too has been able to come up with a logical reason for you wanting to take the strategic gameplay out of PvP. I hardly think this was a mistake, for some bizarre reason you actually thought people would enjoy a more twitch based experience, which just proves how out of touch you are with your target audience and how utterly dyer your metrics are.

 

I know you think that us forum dwellers are the vocal minority Bioware, but I promise you this, the feeling is mutual with the majority of non-forum dwellers within game, I can assure you. Just because people are PvP'ing at the moment does not mean that they are enjoying these changes and lack of strategy brought with 1.2

 

Your only hope at saving PvP and not losing a massive chunk of your subscribers, is either to reduce burst, or make our health pools larger to cope with the incoming burst and then readjust healing to match the larger health pools. I see no other way you can fix this mess you've created.

 

That is all.

So you want a return to tank / healer matches with 3 kills for an entire team? It is a pvp match not a raiding boss fight.

 

If you want really crappy, made for toddlers, pve style BGs, maybe your guild should go back to WOW. Just saying, that style of game exists and if the player base here wanted that, they'd be playing that instead of reading these forums.

 

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Like Assassin/Shadow Tanks in their Tank sets but with DPS mods? Yeah I've met those, they're not fun.

 

That's an example, and does it not extend their own life span?

 

I more of meant:

 

Orange crafted gear now has an augment slot if it crits (including weapons).

I believe Implants also get an augment slot on a crit to craft. (I will try and verify.

Set bonuses are suppose to transfer with the mods.

There are (rare) customizable belts and bracers.

 

So that gives you (assuming only one main hand weapon):

 

7 armoring (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, belt, bracers.)

8 mods (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, belt, bracers, weapon.)

6 enhancements (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, weapon.)

1 Hilt/barrel (Weapon)

8 augments (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, weapon, implant 1, implant 2)

 

30 total customizable slots to mix and match to add stats you need. (and fyi, expertise has a soft cap, I can't remember the new one at the moment.)

 

Frankly, squishy players are mostly undergeared/poorly planned.

 

Edit: Added comment:

 

Strategy in pvp is now in team composition (excluding pugs), positioning, gear planning pre-game, and tactics. (Where to zerg, where to stall, when to suicide to respawn, feints to divert people from an objective) etc...

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
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So you want a return to tank / healer matches with 3 kills for an entire team? It is a pvp match not a raiding boss fight.

 

If you want really crappy, made for toddlers, pve style BGs, maybe your guild should go back to WOW. Just saying, that style of game exists and if the player base here wanted that, they'd be playing that instead of reading these forums.

 

 

I didn't say that. I'm talking about the TTK, not the "how long can I heal and keep myself and everyone else alive". Take healers out of the picture for a second, and think back to those fights pre 1.2 where it was just DPS vs DPS. The TTK was fine, you had time to play strategically and use cooldowns intelligently. Games and duels would come down to the ones who made the least mistakes. Now it's a game of "how fast can't I hit all my big moves and kill the other person". My defensive cooldowns will no longer change the tide of most fights as they simply cannot compete with the burst people are putting out now, they just seem to prolong my impending doom.

 

So of course I don't want things to go back to the way they were entirely, healers absolutely needed nerfing. But there was absolutely no valid reason to increase the burst and thus shorten the TTK. None at all. All it does is shorten the window for any kind of real tactical gameplay.

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That's an example, and does it not extend their own life span?

 

I more of meant:

 

Orange crafted gear now has an augment slot if it crits (including weapons).

I believe Implants also get an augment slot on a crit to craft. (I will try and verify.

Set bonuses are suppose to transfer with the mods.

There are (rare) customizable belts and bracers.

 

So that gives you (assuming only one main hand weapon):

 

7 armoring (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, belt, bracers.)

8 mods (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, belt, bracers, weapon.)

6 enhancements (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, weapon.)

1 Hilt/barrel (Weapon)

8 augments (head, chest, gloves, pants, boots, weapon, implant 1, implant 2)

 

30 total customizable slots to mix and match to add stats you need. (and fyi, expertise has a soft cap, I can't remember the new one at the moment.)

 

Frankly, squishy players are mostly undergeared/poorly planned.

 

So you're saying that Bioware has balanced PvP around EVERYONE getting augmented gear with added endurance and primary/secondary stats? Which in turn means you can only really get the most out of PvP if you're able to go through all that effort?

 

I don't know about you, but I can't even afford to take the mods out of more than two pieces of my gear, let alone buy augmented gear. I'm a somewhat casual player so that will take me a very long time indeed. I guess Bioware no longer wish to cater to players like me. The sad thing is, I'm willing to bet it's players like me that make up a massive chunk of Bioware's subscribers.

Edited by Sweeet
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After 10-15 years of PvP ing at a 200-300ms disadvantage, my reflexes and situational awareness skills are pretty good, but not everyone wants the same style of PvP

 

I understand that the company has to balance PvP rewards in a manner that encourages many players to queue, or PvP Warzones will die.

 

UO->EQ-> DAOC-> WoW-> Horizons-> EvE-> Lotro-> Rift-> SWTOR, when the fun runs out, I move, others do the same.

Edited by Elkirin
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I didn't say that. I'm talking about the TTK, not the "how long can I heal and keep myself and everyone else alive". Take healers out of the picture for a second, and think back to those fights pre 1.2 where it was just DPS vs DPS. The TTK was fine, you had time to play strategically and use cooldowns intelligently. Games and duels would come down to the ones who made the least mistakes. Now it's a game of "how fast can't I hit all my big moves and kill the other person". My defensive cooldowns will no longer change the tide of most fights as they simply cannot compete with the burst people are putting out now, they just seem to prolong my impending doom.

 

So of course I don't want things to go back to the way they were entirely, healers absolutely needed nerfing. But there was absolutely no valid reason to increase the burst and thus shorten the TTK. None at all. All it does is shorten the window for any kind of real tactical gameplay.

Your logic has unintended results you wont like then. Healers quietly benefit the most from what you are talking about. We are talking about healing as in, WOW style, post resilence starting with the BC era. That era when blizzard moved from burst crit to a system that allowed players to spam heals endlessly by WOTLK.

 

It created a time when the BGs would be filled with 80% or more healers. It was just like this game was on many servers pre 1.2.

 

Blizzard's stupid mistake in game design grew an entire generation to think easy mode spam classes, with endless mana reserves, was some kind of intelligent fighting style. Spamming isn't tactical. It is straight up Corky.

 

The news flash for the average player is simple. Toons are not supposed to be Superman.

 

Marines do real life tactical fighting in the span of an eye blink. This long, boring dance people are talking about isn't pvp, it is a practiced dance of cool downs and mana reserves that certain specs and classes will simply do better than others, further complicated by gear issues.

 

Your request eventually makes cookie cutter pvp. Something that a 9 year old kid can copy and do just as well as you can. Does that really sound like genius or skill to you?

 

 

 

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So you're saying that Bioware has balanced PvP around EVERYONE getting augmented gear with added endurance and primary stats? Which in turn means you can only really get the most out of PvP if you're able to go through all that effort?

 

I don't know about you, but I can't even afford to take the mods out of more than two pieces of my gear, let alone buy augmented gear. I'm a somewhat casual player so that will take me a very long time indeed. I guess Bioware no longer wish to cater to players like me. The sad thing is, I'm willing to bet it's players like me that make up a massive chunk of Bioware's subscribers.

 

I personally can't say what makes up the better part of the subscriber base, but casual vs. "hardcore" or not, I don't see how it can be difficult to put in just a little effort every day to build your character to fit your needs. You built their spec, you leveled them to 50, and I'll even assume you've got them geared in half decent pvp gear from the sets.

 

2hrs a day is enough to Pvp a few matches and then run a few of your dailies (Belsalvis, Corellia, etc...) or do a hard mode. A competent group can run an operations one night a week, in 2-3hrs. PvE gear alone is not good in Wz's, but it can give you mods and stuff to swap into pvp gear to take out some un-needed stuff and put more desirable stuff in.

 

Crafting can be done while waiting in Queue, or even during a match if you've got 10 seconds of downtime to send companions on a mission. (Don't forget to still play, cause "I was crafting..." is sure to piss off a few team mates if you got ninja'ed.)

 

On one of my alts, she's an artifice, and I already have an augmented weapon and I bought an augmented chest for 30k. She's only 35, so I've got 15 levels for the other pieces. Should take about 2-3weeks if I slack.

 

I do not mean to be rude, but from the continued conversation, it really seems you simply are not willing to take the time to learn other aspects of the game, and really just want bigger hp and better gear for little effort. That's not the trademark of the MMO genre.

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Your logic has unintended results you wont like then. Healers quietly benefit the most from what you are talking about. We are talking about healing as in, WOW style, post resilence starting with the BC era. That era when blizzard moved from burst crit to a system that allowed players to spam heals endlessly by WOTLK.

 

It created a time when the BGs would be filled with 80% or more healers. It was just like this game was on many servers pre 1.2.

 

Blizzard's stupid mistake in game design grew an entire generation to think easy mode spam classes, with endless mana reserves, was some kind of intelligent fighting style. Spamming isn't tactical. It is straight up Corky.

 

The news flash for the average player is simple. Toons are not supposed to be Superman.

 

Marines do real life tactical fighting in the span of an eye blink. This long, boring dance people are talking about isn't pvp, it is a practiced dance of cool downs and mana reserves that certain specs and classes will simply do better than others, further complicated by gear issues.

 

Your request eventually makes cookie cutter pvp. Something that a 9 year old kid can copy and do just as well as you can. Does that really sound like genius or skill to you?

 

 

 

 

Does 2 players bursting you down in under 10 seconds whilst you have full BM gear sound like genius or skill to you? Are we even playing the same game?

 

Don't get me wrong when I'm with my Guardian friend, I can do exactly the same, but it's certainly not skilled and it's most definitely not fun. I actually feel sorry for the people we focus especially if there are more than 2 of us, and no it doesn't take any skill at all.

 

3 DPS on 1 player is a joke now. It's pretty much an instant kill - again does that sound like genius or skill to you when you can potentially have 8 DPS in a WZ? Focusing people just exacerbates the TTK issue.

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So, is TTK the cool new thing to say, like *Ad Hominem*, or *Absurd* were a few months ago?

 

I find playing the game is much better than parroting Taugrim.

 

1v1 - someone dies about the same, maybe slightly quicker...maybe.

1v2 - I die about the same, someone else probably dies too.

1v3 - I die about the same, quicker than 1v2.

Focused - I die really fast.

 

This is my experience, as a solo-queue, where I cannot rely on heals. I really don't know what some of you are talking about, because 3-on-1 = target dies pretty fast, and it has been this way since I have been in PvP.

 

Maybe the influx of new/fresh 50's who have no gear getting slammed is skewing your perceptions a bit.

 

Riôt

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Does 2 players bursting you down in under 10 seconds whilst you have full BM gear sound like genius or skill to you? Are we even playing the same game?

 

Don't get me wrong when I'm with my Guardian friend, I can do exactly the same, but it's certainly not skilled and it's most definitely not fun. I actually feel sorry for the people we focus especially if there are more than 2 of us, and no it doesn't take any skill at all.

 

3 DPS on 1 player is a joke now. It's pretty much an instant kill - again does that sound like genius or skill to you when you can potentially have 8 DPS in a WZ? Focusing people just exacerbates the TTK issue.

 

Do you honestly think three people focus fire dpsing on a toon shouldn't kill the toon quickly? :eek:

 

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So, is TTK the cool new thing to say, like *Ad Hominem*, or *Absurd* were a few months ago?

 

I find playing the game is much better than parroting Taugrim.

 

1v1 - someone dies about the same, maybe slightly quicker...maybe.

1v2 - I die about the same, someone else probably dies too.

1v3 - I die about the same, quicker than 1v2.

Focused - I die really fast.

 

This is my experience, as a solo-queue, where I cannot rely on heals. I really don't know what some of you are talking about, because 3-on-1 = target dies pretty fast, and it has been this way since I have been in PvP.

 

Maybe the influx of new/fresh 50's who have no gear getting slammed is skewing your perceptions a bit.

 

Riôt

 

<.< Ya honestly I didn't know what TTK was at first, I thought it was some kinda sage skill. Telekinetic Throw Krap... Took me a moment to get it when I first saw it a week ago.

 

I'd say your experience is about right, and accurate. Honestly I've gotten jumped 1 vs 1 by "burst" classes and I've still managed to stay alive, burn a CD or two, and kill them. I've also been killed. Generally depends on if they've got more skill than I, and in extreme cases its a "gear gap." Not usually.

 

Anything 2 vs 1, 3 vs 1, etc... well ya should die fast. 3 vs 1 is an enemy strategy....

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I personally can't say what makes up the better part of the subscriber base, but casual vs. "hardcore" or not, I don't see how it can be difficult to put in just a little effort every day to build your character to fit your needs. You built their spec, you leveled them to 50, and I'll even assume you've got them geared in half decent pvp gear from the sets.

 

2hrs a day is enough to Pvp a few matches and then run a few of your dailies (Belsalvis, Corellia, etc...) or do a hard mode. A competent group can run an operations one night a week, in 2-3hrs. PvE gear alone is not good in Wz's, but it can give you mods and stuff to swap into pvp gear to take out some un-needed stuff and put more desirable stuff in.

 

Crafting can be done while waiting in Queue, or even during a match if you've got 10 seconds of downtime to send companions on a mission. (Don't forget to still play, cause "I was crafting..." is sure to piss off a few team mates if you got ninja'ed.)

 

On one of my alts, she's an artifice, and I already have an augmented weapon and I bought an augmented chest for 30k. She's only 35, so I've got 15 levels for the other pieces. Should take about 2-3weeks if I slack.

 

I do not mean to be rude, but from the continued conversation, it really seems you simply are not willing to take the time to learn other aspects of the game, and really just want bigger hp and better gear for little effort. That's not the trademark of the MMO genre.

 

I too don't mean to sound rude, but that's because I honestly don't think that having a couple hundred extra stats will do squat in the games current state. If anything augmented gear is only going to exacerbate the issue too by making people even more bursty.

 

At the end of the day, you either think that the current TTK is OK, or you think it's too short. It weighs heavily on your playstyle and how you get your enjoyment from the game. Do you enjoying ganking people? Or do you enjoy having time to use your brain? I fall into the latter, enough said.

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Do you honestly think three people focus fire dpsing on a toon shouldn't kill the toon quickly? :eek:

 

 

Well that entirely depends on what you class as "quickly" eh.

 

Dieing in the space of 2-3 global cooldowns is what I'd call overkill, unless there are 4 or more DPSers.

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Well that entirely depends on what you class as "quickly" eh.

 

Dieing in the space of 2-3 global cooldowns is what I'd call overkill, unless there are 4 or more DPSers.

 

So you basically want to be a raid boss monster in a pvp zone?

 

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