noob question -- (my vanguard's only 40) -- what about riot strike reduction?

It's early am here and I'm not sure I'm following what your asking.

If you are talking about Front line Defense that reduces the cool down of riot strike I'd say that is pretty much your call. As a tank you are not really expected to be doing the interrupts yet most of the time we are the only ones left in the group that can do them.

I'd say if you are going for gut then grab the extra two or even one point in Front line defense because a faster interrupts is never a bad thing.

Throwing some talents around you could do this.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GMGrborouZMsrbo.1

This will give you your gut and a very good interrupt however you will be losing out on two points into shield chance thus reducing your shield chance to only +8% instead of 10% yet that can be easily picked up from gear if this is the way you wanted to go.

Here is my "back of the envelope" math:

 

Energy Blast:

 

Average Base Damage = 758

Intimidation Modifier = 45

Blaster Augs Modifier = 23

 

Total Damage = 826

 

 

Gut:

 

Average Base Damage = 651

Frontline Offense Modifier = 39

Internal Damage (DoT) = 784

Blaster Augs Modifier (DoT) = 24

 

Total Damage over 15s = 1,497*

 

*I'm making a conservative assumption absent testing that Frontline Offense only impacts the "front end" damage on Gut. I'm also only applying Blaster Augs to the DoT (Internal)

 

 

Now the two key questions:

 

1 - Do you plan to use E-blast more than once in a 15 second window?

 

2 - Do you care about the energy return feature in E-blast?

 

 

In my opinion (need to test obviously) the energy return isn't material enough to justify the loss in damage (threat) in scenarios where E-Blast is used once every 15 seconds. I don't know that you really buy yourself the ability to string in another ability due to the return (if so then obviously the value increases for E-Blast.)

 

Secondly, even if you use E-Blast every say 10 seconds you can still clip Gut in before the DoT fully expires and potentially stay ahead.

 

 

Thanks again, good discussion.

I think one thing you're greatly underestimating is that the difference between EB and Gut is not simply +1 Ammo for that damage trade-off. It's +3 Ammo because Gut costs 2. That very easily allows one to take better advantage of Static Shield procs as well as maintaining your Static Field debuff with Ion Pulse without the need to incorrectly prioritize IP over a higher threat/damage ability like SS or HIB. The additional high-damage abilities you can use with the Ammo return pretty easily make-up for the damage differential, if not completely surpass it.

Also, one should factor in the Ammo returns and how that affects multi-target threat rotations which are of a higher ratio of ammo consumption.

I'm not saying the EB is the clear-cut winner for a tanking ability (though I think it is better overall, personally), but I think doing a simple damage comparison isn't seeing the full picture.

I find that the Riot Strike CD is acceptable and not worth investing shortening the cool down via talents. There are just way too many other useful things to spend your points on and candidly you shouldn't be the only one tasked to use interrupts. Bear in mind Cryo Grenade does the job too in a pinch.

Agreed. Stellar talent for PVP, really not essential for PVE. Either (A) you have other teammates that should also be helping with interrupts or (B) the boss typically only has 1 "absolutely must interrupt" ability that you can deal with given the standard CD on Riot Strike. I haven't run into any mobs yet that had a "must interrupt" ability that I couldn't deal with using a non-talented Riot Strike CD.

I think one thing you're greatly underestimating is that the difference between EB and Gut is not simply +1 Ammo for that damage trade-off. It's +3 Ammo because Gut costs 2. That very easily allows one to take better advantage of Static Shield procs as well as maintaining your Static Field debuff with Ion Pulse without the need to incorrectly prioritize IP over a higher threat/damage ability like SS or HIB. The additional high-damage abilities you can use with the Ammo return pretty easily make-up for the damage differential, if not completely surpass it.

You make a fair point regarding the Ammo cost; and I would certainly not advocate Gut over EB if the damage differential wasn't so large (in my opinion.) In a single target situation (more on that later) I simply do not find that spending 2 ammo for Gut every 15 seconds keeps me from using SS or HIB while maintaining regen. If I felt I was unable to SS because of Gut then obviously the math just won't work - so it bears testing. The gap here is just pretty darn wide which makes me willing to suffer the utility loss.

Also, one should factor in the Ammo returns and how that affects multi-target threat rotations which are of a higher ratio of ammo consumption.

This is true, in AoE situations you will consume more ammo and therefore an ability like Gut will not be efficient. I'm not sure though how important this will be in the long run as most large packs are effectively "trash" that can be managed through. It's certainly something to consider.

Ultimately I think it's a trade-off which is great (I like having to pick between two compelling choices.)

I find that the Riot Strike CD is acceptable and not worth investing shortening the cool down via talents. There are just way too many other useful things to spend your points on and candidly you shouldn't be the only one tasked to use interrupts. Bear in mind Cryo Grenade does the job too in a pinch.

You could also use a Cyro grenade.. run 10 meters back and hit Storm... pulling the target with harpoon

I agree to several parts of this

1.) your not the main interrupter just someone that has one ( you have more to do than to just focus on interrupts). Yet sometimes you have to go above and beyond and that is what being a tank is about.

2.) Riot strike cd is very good in it's current state yet at times that hard hitting skill will start going off as soon as riot strike is about to clear cd. Yet you can still interrupt that skill but it's just close at times. So I can see getting the talent to make yourself less stressed.

3.)There are better things to put your talents in. You are a tank and your main goal is to take damage and reduce the damage you take so those points could be better off in say shield chance or something.

Ultimately I think it's a trade-off which is great (I like having to pick between two compelling choices.)

Agreed, in a series of trees without very many compelling or competing options it's nice that the trade-offs between these two are close enough to offer at least a reasonable choice of trade-offs.

Agreed, in a series of trees without very many compelling or competing options it's nice that the trade-offs between these two are close enough to offer at least a reasonable choice of trade-offs.

Damage or Adaptability basically.

I find that having Energy Blast allows me to be much more aggressive in my ability usage, especially early in a fight. In a single target situation, I'll often Storm->SS->HiB->IP and then use Energy Blast to compensate if Shield Cycler hasn't made up the difference. Once I start mixing in HS, I find I can keep SG and PC on cooldown as well as SS and HiB by managing my ammo and using EB when it's available. It's also very handy if you're in a situation where you're using Riot Strike frequently, as those off-GCD 1 ammo charges can really add up.

Likewise, in an AoE situation, I'll often do MV->Storm->ES->Smoke Grenade->PC(with a slight reposition)->SG, dropping EB at the first point where my ammo is dropping near unacceptable levels (often between PC and SG).

I do think either build is viable, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Gut build put out more dps, but for my playstyle I like having to fall back on Hammer Shot less and I like being more able to push my ammo usage so as not to waste Shield Cycler procs.

Damage or Adaptability basically.

Eh, I still don't think Gut is such a clear-cut winner on the damage front. I think the main advantages of Gut over EB is the following:

- Simpler single-target rotation to maintain.

- DOT maintains threat during periods of CC or time spent out of melee.

- DOT can be applied to multiple targets if necessary for long-term, multi-target threat.

So I'd say that Gut is easier to use and perhaps a more forgiving ability to use, whereas EB gives you increased adaptability but requires more attention to use it to its full effect.

Eh, I still don't think Gut is such a clear-cut winner on the damage front. I think the main advantages of Gut over EB is the following:

- Simpler single-target rotation to maintain.

- DOT maintains threat during periods of CC or time spent out of melee.

- DOT can be applied to multiple targets if necessary for long-term, multi-target threat.

 

So I'd say that Gut is easier to use and perhaps a more forgiving ability to use, whereas EB gives you increased adaptability but requires more attention to use it to its full effect.

So in essence your saying it's like tanking with rend from a warrior but with a higher end frontal attack. Thinking about it that might actually cause more threat. Keeping a consistent DoT on the target and having the ability to throw that on others seems like a very good idea.

I'm still not that convinced of it but I will try it out here shortly.

So in essence your saying it's like tanking with rend from a warrior but with a higher end frontal attack. Thinking about it that might actually cause more threat. Keeping a consistent DoT on the target and having the ability to throw that on others seems like a very good idea.

 

I'm still not that convinced of it but I will try it out here shortly.

Yeah, I think Rend is a reasonable comparison. Energy Blast will give you more front-end threat at the start of the encounter and more opportunities for large applications of threat, but Gut will give you a more even distribution of threat throughout an encounter.

Eh, I still don't think Gut is such a clear-cut winner on the damage front. I think the main advantages of Gut over EB is the following:

- Simpler single-target rotation to maintain.

- DOT maintains threat during periods of CC or time spent out of melee.

- DOT can be applied to multiple targets if necessary for long-term, multi-target threat.

 

So I'd say that Gut is easier to use and perhaps a more forgiving ability to use, whereas EB gives you increased adaptability but requires more attention to use it to its full effect.

Well the only way EB wins in the threat department is if in fact you find yourself forced to Hammer Shot more often with Gut, because otherwise Gut seems to convincingly do more damage. Albeit the threat curve is different (upfront vs. over time.) I suspect Bioware wants us to use EB, so if Gut does "win" I wouldn't be surprised to see EB buffed (win/win.)

Regarding simplicity, I have two points:

1 - Simple is actually better when tanking; having highly involved rotations sounds "cool" in theory but in practice is only compelling when you're bored out of your mind bashing some random tank-and-spank boss. With dynamic encounters, adding excessive (key word) complexity to rotations often adds a layer that just becomes frustrating.

2 - I'm not sure Gut makes life materially easier as now you have to manage another debuff while playing with UI: Circa 1998™. I do think EB will be more fun to "theorycraft" but I don't think Gut changes things so much that you can just bash a key while watching TV.

Definitely enjoying the dialogue and I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in the long-run regarding Gut. Maybe it's the fact I played a Druid tank/healer in WoW that makes me miss those lovely bleeds!

im a 50 vanguard tank for hard mode ops in EV

this is the spec i wanna try out

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801RMGrdoroGZMsr0oZb.1

im just wondering how that would work i got 21.7k hp so i can lose the 300hp np and 4% shield chance im very geared and still have 43% shield chance with out the 4%

what ya guys think cause seems like my threat is real bad and ammo seems to never be a problem for me but my dps guildys seem to always pull aggro from me so any extra threat would help

Gut is NOT the solution to threat, you'll do less sustained threat with that build.

Gut vs E-blast is a difference of 3 energy cell every 15 seconds. That's 1.5 normal skills you'll have to change to Hammer Shots every 15 seconds. Doesn't make for it.

The best build for tanking on PvE is: 31/8/2

You can take a look at my spreadsheet, the Threat part is mostly oriented to Powertech, so you'll need to look around the names, as we are mirrors anyway.

How effective is shield cycler? should i put the 2 pts there? I also want to be able to kill things not just take punishment.

I'm also new to mmo PvP, and I'm trying to get the mechanics. I've heard this isn't the easiest game for a tank, but I find it pretty fun, and regularly do 100k dmg and 40k protection; is this good? If not, may I get pointers?

Thank you

How effective is shield cycler? should i put the 2 pts there? I also want to be able to kill things not just take punishment.

 

I'm also new to mmo PvP, and I'm trying to get the mechanics. I've heard this isn't the easiest game for a tank, but I find it pretty fun, and regularly do 100k dmg and 40k protection; is this good? If not, may I get pointers?

 

Thank you

Shield Cycler is great and only gets better as you boost your Shield rating. Free Ammo = More Damage. Basically you get rewarded with extra damage/threat as you stack a defensive stat. Very tanky.

Also, to the OP, if you're interested in adding more advanced tools to this guide you might link to the following: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Anu1vsgr6HTmdF9yYUVwelhTNE1uNEtSSS05T3F2cXc#gid=0

DISCLAIMER: I did not create this spreadsheet, I found it on the forums. If I remembered from who I would give them credit, but I honestly just don't.

HOW TO USE: Save a local copy of the spreadsheet somewhere, change the Delta value to the one specified for Vanguards, plug in your own current stats, and the rest is pretty self-explanatory.

Shield Cycler is great and only gets better as you boost your Shield rating. Free Ammo = More Damage. Basically you get rewarded with extra damage/threat as you stack a defensive stat. Very tanky.

 

Also, to the OP, if you're interested in adding more advanced tools to this guide you might link to the following: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Anu1vsgr6HTmdF9yYUVwelhTNE1uNEtSSS05T3F2cXc#gid=0

 

DISCLAIMER: I did not create this spreadsheet, I found it on the forums. If I remembered from who I would give them credit, but I honestly just don't.

 

HOW TO USE: Save a local copy of the spreadsheet somewhere, change the Delta value to the one specified for Vanguards, plug in your own current stats, and the rest is pretty self-explanatory.

I'd like to post that up but I'd want to give credit to the original creator. If you can give me that detail it'd be great.