All fine advice for situational considerations on who to guard in HM operations when you have two tanks and are swapping between them. But the OP was asking about low level flashpoints, where tanks don't even get their AoE taunt until level 35 (?).

Lvl 30, and having just leveled my new guardian through that point (the tank with the least aoe threat overall). Its still better to guard heals than dps. "edit" for tanks that know their classes inside and out that is. I guess I can't expect a new person to have a mastery of the class before they begin to level a toon so guarding dps is basically a crutch for them to learn against.

Also Operative and Merc heals have very very good aoe damage for their level which is another reason to guard them seeing as they should be helping a bit with dps too.

So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

 

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

 

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

 

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

 

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

 

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.

If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.

err. even when I heal mediocre pug tank on my nearly optimized BiS operative (missing implant and earpiece >_> ) I STILL don't pull over tank or dps. the only time I pull is when the mobs are not being hit by anyone else. that's it. even when I'm reduced to spam healing. there are very few situations where guarding a healer is a good idea and not one of them are in a flashpoint.

a good tank will guard dps. melee dps have higher threat generation then ranged, but guarding ranged may still be a good idea depending on the individual players you are grouped with. because THEY can out threat the tank. healer cannot, not unless the tank stops attacking but healer is still healing.

err. even when I heal mediocre pug tank on my nearly optimized BiS operative (missing implant and earpiece >_> ) I STILL don't pull over tank or dps. the only time I pull is when the mobs are not being hit by anyone else. that's it. even when I'm reduced to spam healing. there are very few situations where guarding a healer is a good idea and not one of them are in a flashpoint.

 

a good tank will guard dps. melee dps have higher threat generation then ranged, but guarding ranged may still be a good idea depending on the individual players you are grouped with. because THEY can out threat the tank. healer cannot, not unless the tank stops attacking but healer is still healing.

No good tank should ever be out threat genned by dps... sorry its just a fact. Your standards for tanks are much lower than mine.

Also in fp's you should be doing as much damage as possible while healing and due to the nature of operatives you often do better burst dps than many dps'rs do.

Plus tanks at low level have basically identical dps as dps do but with 100% boosted threat gen so if they cant hold aggro then well they have other issues.

So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

 

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

 

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

 

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

 

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

 

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.

If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.

You may be a really, really, really good tank with predictable dps, so that you know they're going to frontload a lot of damage for you to taunt off of and multiply. If you're working together really well as a team there is no need to guard anybody or have anyone use a threat drop. I know of progression groups who insist dps don't threat drop. (Probably because the most common problem with threat drops is that dps use them too soon and the tank is taunting off nothing, which allows the dps to pull ahead on threat.)

But outside of progression teams, it's a sign of either a PVP player or a really, really, really bad tank to guard the healer. 5% damage reduction shouldn't mentally help your healers to prevent distraction. Also, ????????? Really, really, really bad thingsTM happen when you lose threat to a dps, too. Like the first boss of TfB or a boss with a front cone attack turning around on the entire group. And a dps is so much more likely to pull off you than a healer. It's ridiculously hard for a healer to pull threat except in special circumstances (like a commando who has probed the entire ops and then raid-wide damage happens and your commando simply disappears. True story.) But I do agree that in some fights you want to guard a healer because dps are seldom on the same target as the tank, tanks are taunting off each other, etc. and there's raid-wide damage, because why not? Might as well guard somebody and the threat management is the negligible part. But those fights are very rare. We're talking about leveling flashpoints, or just general flashpoints, once you have some aoe damage and especially once your tank has an aoe taunt. If you damage all the enemies, they shouldn't run towards the healer.

Guard is a threat management tool in pve. Use it to manage threat. End of story. I almost wish it didn't have that 5% damage reduction because that is a cause of so much stupidity about guard.

Healers should want a tank to guard dps. If a dps pulls, the healer will have to heal them more than they would the tank, which would generate more threat. If a dps pulls, it could swing a conal attack around at the group, including the healer.

Just guard whomever pulls threat and forget about the measly 5% (generally) and banish from your mind the pvp portion (unless you are fighting a player)!

(Also, if you have seen a commando healer - she is still missing, presumed eaten by droids.)

Since obviously neither person will change each other's minds on this matter let me just simply leave off with saying.

I am not a pvp player.... I am a progression tank/healer/dps on the best raiding guild on my server. (well to be fair the only real world competitive one here on shadowlands).

I guard healers, because a dps will never pull off of me unless I am quite literally afk or pulling everything in an instance. I would also much rather have a mob attack any dps over any healer because I want healers to have to heal other people instead of themselves. (esp sorcs/operatives that have to focus on themselves almost makes them worthless as group heals).

In my humble view, using guards to mitigate a dps's theat is nothing but a crutch for incompetence and mediocrity in pve. I mean bioware hands tanks threat on silver platters.

Since obviously neither person will change each other's minds on this matter let me just simply leave off with saying.

 

I am not a pvp player.... I am a progression tank/healer/dps on the best raiding guild on my server. (well to be fair the only real world competitive one here on shadowlands).

 

I guard healers, because a dps will never pull off of me unless I am quite literally afk or pulling everything in an instance. I would also much rather have a mob attack any dps over any healer because I want healers to have to heal other people instead of themselves. (esp sorcs/operatives that have to focus on themselves almost makes them worthless as group heals).

 

In my humble view, using guards to mitigate a dps's theat is nothing but a crutch for incompetence and mediocrity in pve. I mean bioware hands tanks threat on silver platters.

I get where you're coming from on this. But I have a problem with the advice you're giving.

You're speaking from the perspective of a top-tier-raiding guild, and how you behave with skilled progression raiders you know.

But when someone green comes to this thread, sees "guard the healer", reads your post, doesn't fully understand it, and walks away with the idea "a top raider said guard the healer", you've just done them a disservice.

1. If someone doesn't have aggro problems as a tank, they can guard whoever they want. Healer? Sure, why not.

2. BUT, if the dps is pulling off the tank, then guard the freaking dps.

It's that simple.

When healers are crying for a guard, it's usually indicator of a BAD GROUP. A good group will follow the kill order and keep aggro off the healer. Guard won't fix that problem.

No good tank should ever be out threat genned by dps... sorry its just a fact. Your standards for tanks are much lower than mine.

 

Also in fp's you should be doing as much damage as possible while healing and due to the nature of operatives you often do better burst dps than many dps'rs do.

 

Plus tanks at low level have basically identical dps as dps do but with 100% boosted threat gen so if they cant hold aggro then well they have other issues.

more like your standards for dps are really really low. high dps with a lucky streak of crits can and will pull without guard. dps of higher level than the tank with updated gear WILL pull off the tank. at least early on. way before the healer. and that 5% damage reduction? is not going to help against a crowd of untanked mobs.

moreover - in falshpoints just like operations, healers primary role is.... /drumroll HEALING. you don't dps unless everyone is at full health and there no danger of your running out of energy at the worst possible moment. in order to SPEED the run, you are better off keeping people healed up at all times so that you can keep moving from pull to pull without stopping. IF and only IF you have time to dps while keeping everyone at full health? then you do.

at low levels though? healer's energy management is crap . it doesn't start getting better until 30ties and up and your healer doesn't really start feeling like a properly realized class until about 45. before that, you cannot afford to waste your global cooldowns and your energy dpsing. even as merc or operative whose basic attack returns marginal energy - you are better of using the shot on the rest of your group keeping them topped off, or diagnostic scanning them as an op

but hey, what do I know, right? not like I played every class to 55 AND did group content in every role >_>

EVEN in a progression guild you rarely guard healers. its extremely situational. its NOT a default.

having read what you said about sorcs/operatives self healing that makes them worthless for healing the rest of the group? yeah, you definitely don't know what you are talking about, dude.

I guard healers, because a dps will never pull off of me unless I am quite literally afk or pulling everything in an instance. I would also much rather have a mob attack any dps over any healer because I want healers to have to heal other people instead of themselves. (esp sorcs/operatives that have to focus on themselves almost makes them worthless as group heals).

 

In my humble view, using guards to mitigate a dps's theat is nothing but a crutch for incompetence and mediocrity in pve. I mean bioware hands tanks threat on silver platters.

OK, so when I was healing on my scoundrel with a sage and we got the server first on HM Corruptor Zero and weren't guarded and had to heal ourselves like crazy on the first add wave, we were all just worthless. Guard would have done absolutely nothing to help us other than knock off 5% of the damage, but our tanks didn't guard us because they are mediocre and incompetent. While you're not wrong about a lot of things about tanking and threat, you are insultingly wrong about applying your experience to everyone else and judging the worth of a tank by whom they guard and I really hope you're trolling.

When you run ops, do you have your group in parsec so you can keep the threat meter up? And do you watch what is going on? DPS going all out can outpace a tank on a single boss with no swaps even with taunt fluffling. Tanks swaps make threat ridiculously easy, but look at the initial pull on council for example, where the tank who takes Bestia at the start has to make sure they have threat for the first knockback, then the positioning before the second knockback. For a lot of the time during that opening, you're flying in the air or moving, so you can't do damage to solidify your threat. Mechanics like that are there as a challenge because they make threat difficult. The "silver platter" may exist on easy content, but you're claiming NiM progression here. Granted, TfB and S&V don't have those challenges except on trash, so if that's your experience, then sure. But good luck with NiM Nefra, especially if you're going to guard the other tank.

Depending on the level of skill of the players and difficulty and tactics of the fight, you sometimes will caution dps to start slowly or go all out at the start. Depending on the fight, you may want to change your guard. There are a lot of methods to tackle fights for progression ops. But guarding a dps is absolutely not a sign of a mediocre tank.

OK, so when I was healing on my scoundrel with a sage and we got the server first on HM Corruptor Zero and weren't guarded and had to heal ourselves like crazy on the first add wave, we were all just worthless. Guard would have done absolutely nothing to help us other than knock off 5% of the damage, but our tanks didn't guard us because they are mediocre and incompetent. While you're not wrong about a lot of things about tanking and threat, you are insultingly wrong about applying your experience to everyone else and judging the worth of a tank by whom they guard and I really hope you're trolling.

 

When you run ops, do you have your group in parsec so you can keep the threat meter up? And do you watch what is going on? DPS going all out can outpace a tank on a single boss with no swaps even with taunt fluffling. Tanks swaps make threat ridiculously easy, but look at the initial pull on council for example, where the tank who takes Bestia at the start has to make sure they have threat for the first knockback, then the positioning before the second knockback. For a lot of the time during that opening, you're flying in the air or moving, so you can't do damage to solidify your threat. Mechanics like that are there as a challenge because they make threat difficult. The "silver platter" may exist on easy content, but you're claiming NiM progression here. Granted, TfB and S&V don't have those challenges except on trash, so if that's your experience, then sure. But good luck with NiM Nefra, especially if you're going to guard the other tank.

 

Depending on the level of skill of the players and difficulty and tactics of the fight, you sometimes will caution dps to start slowly or go all out at the start. Depending on the fight, you may want to change your guard. There are a lot of methods to tackle fights for progression ops. But guarding a dps is absolutely not a sign of a mediocre tank.

Guarding dps because you have to in order to keep aggro is absolutely unequivocally a sign of a mediocre tank.

Even in council their shouldn't be any need to guard dps to hold threat through the first kb. (In fact I would argue calph depending on strat and dps, is a harder tank assignment to start, because you tend to be taunt limited due to the upcoming tank swap.)

Guarding dps because you think it will negate the most damage or for an "easier experience" is completely personal preference, although I would argue that it is a poor use of the guard in most cases. (unless ofc you have the insane misfortune to be running with two or more lightning sorcs in the same raid and that fight has real difficulty.)

My point is that as a self-considered very accomplished tank in this game, guard is not necessary in almost any situation for the prevention of aggro loss, and instead is massively overused by the general populous as just another way for mediocre tanks to stay mediocre instead of learning the ins and outs of content.

Therefore, even if you cannot currently handle guarding heals and holding aggro consistently as tank, then I would always encourage doing it anyways to force yourself to work more efficiently as a tank. Plus no current fight in the game is undo-able minus one dps from a raid group, whereas there are many many times where losing a healer (including most fp's) is going to be a raid/group wipe.

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As to NiM nefra, that fight is almost stupid easy. (I hope it gets buffed into live) It is the WH of that instance. Your taunt becomes such a huge effect so far in that a guard's effect on the offtank is irrelevant. We have done guard on offtank plus guard on gushiest dps/heals (generally a lightning sorc or sorc healer) and just two dps/heal guards (again dependent on their squish factors, never about threat gen risk).

And we only keep parsec up when we are having issues clearing material, but you run with people enough and you learn implicitly when they tend to be highest on threat to accommodate for that. Pugs in general are so horrible that the idea of losing threat to them is almost laughable (although I do remember a few people that thought taunting as a sin dps was proper common behavior a few months ago.)

@DuEldrvarya, if you're trying to give advice to successful end-game raiders, you're seriously wasting your time.

On the other hand, if you're trying to give advice to new tanks learning the ropes in endgame content, you're doing a terrible job at it.

I would also much rather have a mob attack any dps over any healer because I want healers to have to heal other people instead of themselves. (esp sorcs/operatives that have to focus on themselves almost makes them worthless as group heals).

Your standards for healers are much lower than mine.

1) If you don't lose aggro then you can Guard whoever you want. Or don't Guard anyone. It's your choice but I would use it as situational damage reduction based on fight mechanics.

2) If dps is doing their job (like they should) in large trash pulls dps is more likely to get hit by that random hit from trash mob. Even if you don't lose aggro you should use Guard on dps in these situations as damage reduction because "if healer spends less time healing dps it will mean they spend more time healing you, the tank".

3) If you're in group where dps are total noobs then please Guard the healer.

@DuEldrvarya, if you're trying to give advice to successful end-game raiders, you're seriously wasting your time.

 

On the other hand, if you're trying to give advice to new tanks learning the ropes in endgame content, you're doing a terrible job at it.

Trial by fire man. Trial by fire. Same reason why I would always recommend someone who hasn't tanked before to start by leveling an assassin/shadow.

I only started going hardcore into the top-tier stuff cause someone starts bringing up his/her amazing server firsts in content that was so unbelievably easy that (last boss in each instance aside cause they were bugged) server firsts were decided on many servers merely by who logged in first after the update.

I understand we are not allowed to "insult" on forums, so I will try.

1) Heals produce 50% the threat of damage. Properly specced healers produce 10% less than that. All tanks (in proper "stance") produce 90-100% more threat with any damage (though their damage is lower, they also have high threat attacks).

Therefore any threat from damage on a target will outstrip threat from heals.

2) Pulled groups, and the resulting spawns, are connected by programming. Some must be learned. Range and placement can be indicative, but may not be. If members of the group, or resulting spawns, have not been hit then heals will top their aggro. Whether the effective number is 500 or 375 is irrelevant, top of chart is top of chart. This also applies for bosses (even more rarely mobs) that reset their aggro charts.

Therefore, it is important to have all mobs target someone OTHER than the healer by hitting them. This will sometimes require DPS to leave a "main" target to attend to lesser mobs. Holding to kill order helps greatly. Tunnel vision does not.

3) Taunt and group taunt provide +10% over the highest threat on the target charts. This lasts 12 seconds and then reverts unless something has been done in that time.

Therefore, save taunt for when aggro has been lost, or to swap tanks (operations only).

Additionally, when taunting to regain aggro, DPS should drop AFTER the taunt. This grants the tank a greater buffer within which to move up the chart.

EX 1: A DPS (@4400) surpasses a tank (@4000).

a) DPS uses threat dump dropping to 3300. Enough for tank to regain control, but DPS has only 700 to catch up and 400 to surpass tank again. If taunt is used at this time, it is just a security blanket as tank already regained control.

b) Tank uses taunt and goes to 4840 threat. DPS then uses threat dump and goes down to 3300. The tank has a buffer nearly half again that of "a)" to stay ahead of DPS as his threat tapers down after twelve seconds.

EX 2: Disparate DPS and tank (like in leveling FPs and 55 HMs). DPS (@4400) and tank (@3400).

a) DPS uses threat dump (3400) and goes just below the tank's threat, in only seconds he will regain. If the tank uses taunt now, it puts him at 3630 and above the DPS for 12 seconds. The gap will close quickly after that.

b) Tank uses taunt and goes to 4840 threat. DPS then uses threat dump and goes down to 3300. The DPS WILL regain on the tank, but much later than if tank taunts second.

Therefore: use something OTHER than taunt to pull. IN FP save taunt for when you lose aggro or for fight mechanics (Mando Raiders Akk dog boss and 55 HM bonus: Gil).

Additionally, tanks and DPS cooperate and use TAUNT and DUMP in that order when needed.

4) Guard High Threat DPS (Rauder/Sent in Juyo > Merc/Comm in HVGC/APC > Rauder/Sent in Ataru). These "stances" should accompany their respective talent tress which gain increased threat from: constant self heal/ occasional group heal, spike damage (crits and procs), and armor reduction.

From above:

EX1: DPS (@4400), tank (@3950). With guard, the numbers change to DPS (@3300) and tank (@3950). The DPS would have to exceed 5200, another 33% over the threat they were doing before .

EX2: DPS (@4400), tank (@3400). With guard, the DPS is @3300, the tank @3400. The DPS can't have an even luckier string of crits/procs, but should know to not take advantage of the procs with this tank, and pull to pull isn't a constant repetition of weak attacks or fear of the boss enraging (in HMs).

Therefore, DuEdrvarya and Vortumnus, you are wrong. Please do not take this as an insult, it is not. And from the way you dismissed the other side as ~no one giving~ or such, I do not think you will listen, but for the others, please, PLEASE stop insisting on guarding the healer.

Between your first two taunts you have 12 seconds of monopoly on threat and you only have two more globals between your third taunt, and if you can't hold aggro as a tank after your third taunt you need to l2p.

 

ehm..what?? this is totally crazy..reminds me of noobs taunt pulling..taunt puts you at the higher threat in the group..which is zero if you pull with that..12 secs of monopoly and then you are in the ****..can guard even the healer's mom..you'll loose aggro.

take ops average boss in consideration for a second pls: you pull a boss, ppl fight, healers heal..even without positioning maneuvers, if you use target of target feature, you can sometimes see a dps pulling off aggro,if he's good or has big crits in a row, even for less than a global..not a healer..

take average fp, trash pull: you pull, do your aoe rotation, ppl fight, healers heal, someone can grab a mob's attention, can be dps or healer, but if both drop threat and keep doing their job, is the dps who is going to pull again eventually..HERE is where taunts come..and during tank swaps. in general you see the healer aggroing that lonely rdps mob..not a main boss or an elite or a damn drouk no no no...obviously kill order is important in this situation..but levelling as for endgame during a whole instance is going to be the dps to steal aggro.

and the 5% dr is joke in pve, not going to save none

Therefore, DuEdrvarya and Vortumnus, you are wrong. Please do not take this as an insult, it is not. And from the way you dismissed the other side as ~no one giving~ or such, I do not think you will listen, but for the others, please, PLEASE stop insisting on guarding the healer.

Hey... we were never talking abaout "what's normal"...

I have myself all operations cleared in hardmode and of course we are still working on some nightmare-content. I am NOT a progresser. I am ONLY actively playing with sorcerers/sages (as healers) and shadows/assas (as tanks).

When doing end-content raiding you will need players that know what to do and how to play their classes.

Anyways... Right from start it was going about "beginner-tanks" with "beginner-dps" playing low-level-flashpoints.

Guarded healers in my raids last night 100%.

Good advice worked great will being doing it again.

guarded healers in my raids last night 100%.

 

Good advice worked great will being doing it again.

<3<3<3

I don't think people understand what I was saying. I will never ever pull with a taunt, and would never recommend anyone to do so....

My comment on monopoly of threat is explained this way. WORST POSSIBLE CASE (single target) From the first time as a tank you believe you might begin to lose threat (which really shouldn't happen for at least the first 4-5 globals if you didn't do a terrible pull job esp since Force pull for sins [which for them is ofc the pull] saber reflect for juggs/guardians, and pt's have one as well I believe each give you a static 7-10k threat modifier to open on a boss ahead of everyone else) if you taunted you are put at 110% of the highest threat out there (130% on targets outside of melee range), and the boss/mob is always on you for the next 6 seconds.

Then as that 6 seconds wears out and you are still worried that you are going to lose threat (which honestly you shouldn't be unless its a fight where you can't literally ever hit the mob somehow) then you can use your aoe taunt. This replaces whoever was at the top of the threat while you had "fake aggro" (which if you are taunting a second time that soon after the first one because you are worried about it, it would probably be someone that isn't you) with yourself AGAIN with 110/130% threat.

Now most of the burst rotation for openers is well over or tapering down by the time the next 6 seconds finishes, so there really isn't any reason in the world you shouldn't be at the top for threat (although if you taunted back to back anyways we probably can't make that argument).

BUT suppose you are really not feeling well today or anything so you did nothing during those first 12 seconds, and someone else has top threat. Well you failed, epicly, a guard wasn't going to change that since a guard would only help you if one dps is so much more unbelievably better (not even more bursty because you can use that burst to taunt like a beast if it's only burst damage) than all the rest.

GOOD NEWS though, is you only have 3 seconds left on the cd of your next taunt, so you mess up the raid for two globals (a bad thing, but probably not a wipe causing issue) then taunt a 3rd time. Now if you can't hold threat after that 3rd taunt (well after the real high burst window of every single spec in this game (21 seconds)), then you need to rq or l2p instead...

Lets not even get started about those poor pug tanks that lose aggro 30+ seconds after the fight begins

(worst I've seen was 4m29s into corrupter zero 16 sm a tank lost aggro.

X_X no aggro drop , just blatantly lost it, to a sorc dps....)

And that 5% DR is huge.... That's like giving a light armor spec medium armor or a medium armor heavy armor, or to the extreme sense its giving an arsenal merc with power barrier the same base dr as a sin tank.

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Also for leveling flashpoints, I think people miss the central issue. Dps do damage, but rarely heal. Healers often contribute to killing add packs esp in the first few seconds in an engagement where there isn't much to heal.

Consider then that most spec's (rage/lightning being the obvious exceptions) don't really distinguish themselves from heal classes in damage until well into the 30s and 40s (from the perspective of burst damage), any spec that has the potential of doing +/- 20% of a dps's damage while also generating extra threat from healing (in two of three healer specs passively) ought to be treated with more caution than ordinary dps. (not to mention the lazy people who queue as healers in dps spec and off heal while dpsing)

Finally the most important point, lose a dps, probably not that big of a deal, enrages won't be met unless peeps be bad (and not at all in leveling flashpoints). Lose a healer and likely a wipe (nearly 100% chance in fp's)

Look obviously we've already decided that there isn't a piece of content in the game now that requires a guard for competent players. So if you really want to guard that dps, well then it's better than not using a guard in the first place.

I would merely argue that almost every possible situation in this game is better addressed by guarding healers or exceptionally squishy dps. Those that are squishy and aoe bursty are especially more suited as guard targets LIGHTNING SORCERERS I'M STARING RIGHT AT YOU!!!! (well you and me in a mirror 'cause I play/leveled one)

Way to win: (in no order)

1. Keep ops/group frames red. (H2F)

2. Don't stand in stupid. (L2P)

3. Kill stuff. (Make them Pay)

#WINNING

First of all your entire argument comes from an elitist point of view, that tanks are only worthy if they perfect their rotations and hold threat 100% of the time. This isn't reality for a lot of people, and instead of denigrating them, why not suggest they use guard for the purpose it was actually meant to serve?

Could I personally tank in an operation without guarding a DPS? Sure. But for a lot of tanks when they're just starting out, or ESPECIALLY if there's a disparity in their gear to other players (which happens ALL THE TIME for new tanks), you can bet guarding a DPS is the way to go.

Also, you're wrong about the way DR works from guard, its multiplicative, not additive, so its more like 2% in reality. A very weak boost.

Now, yeah, for a lot of operations bosses there are fights where we'll guard healers for specific reasons. Example, Draxus, you're forced to use taunts for his aggro drop anyways and you're not fighting the DPS for threat for most of that fight, so why not give a bit of extra DR to healers. Or Nefra, I actually guard my co-tank (I'm a jugg, he's a powertech) and proceed to intercede him on cooldown, so we can maximize our DR.

But other fights it just makes sense to guard DPS. Grob'thok, so DPS can't pull the adds by accident with a big aoe hit before the off tank gets them and forces him to aoe taunt. Brontes, so you get a bit of help holding the Kephess adds without a taunt (I prefer to save my taunts for Brontes so I can always get her back if needed for any reason, this also helps to make sure I have a taunt available to pop someone's orb if necessary). Raptus, its quite obvious all the things that will go wrong if a DPS pulls off you for even a second in this fight, and the healers otherwise take minimal damage so there's no point to guarding them. Council, obviously you really don't want to lose Bestia or Calphayus on the initial pull, it gets marginal after the first swap but if you really think the DR is that important for healers in the final burn, just freaking swap your guard to them during a phase change.

I mean, flat out, this feels less and less like you're trying to help other players and more and more like you're gloating about the size of your e-peen. Congratulations, you can hold threat on DPS... a lot of good tanks can. But beginners and those with lesser gear should definitely use guard to their advantage, its there for a reason. Its not a crutch, its a tool.

Next thing you know we'll have another guy jump in with his own e-peen gloating and tell you that you're a bad tank for even needing to use taunts to hold a boss.

Or........... we can just look at taunts, and guard, and all other threat buliding/reducing tools for what they are, and just freaking use them properly.

Also, you're wrong about the way DR works from guard, its multiplicative, not additive, so its more like 2% in reality. A very weak boost.

Yes It's a multiplicative boost.... That was taken into consideration with my arguement.

A light armor dps/heals class with ~20%DR under gaurd gets boosted to ~24% DR (medium armor base dr-ish) (4% difference)

A heavy armor dps/heals class with ~30%DR is boosted to ~33.5% DR (3.5% difference)

(A 5 power barrier stack arsenal merc becomes with guard ~38.25 or same DR as 4 set piece 72/75 geared sin tank or 0-3 set piece 78 sin tank)

Even a PT tank with 53% DR is boosted to 55.4% DR (2.4% difference)

So no, its not 2% in reality and its not a weak boost. Also, Grobthok adds almost always run after heals first. Calphy(solo boss) allows for one taunt swap at beginning. Raptus allows for tanks to trade 3-4 taunts at beginning, as does council theoretically, although it would almost never be needed. I've already stated I believe Calph(council) is actually the harder tank assignment to start on with a strong melee alongside you, because unlike starting on bestia, you can't afford to use two taunts starting on calph, and depending on the positioning stratagem sometimes you can't even afford to use one due to the upcoming tank swap.

Brontits might be the single best example of when to guard dps seeing as rdps tend to take the most damage from 6 finger phase (since they are up the longest) and because your free threat modifiers (saber reflect/force pull/whatever pt is called again) are only up every other pull.

As for flashpoints again... there is never anymore pressing of a time to guard healers than the event where there is only one of them to start with.

As for flashpoints again... there is never anymore pressing of a time to guard healers than the event where there is only one of them to start with.

Anyone who is a good enough tank to not lose aggro to a dps can guard whoever the heck they want.

Would you still recommend this for a less-than-perfect tank? Perhaps a new tank?

Let's say you ran a flashpoint AS A DPS. And you kept pulling off of the tank. Are you still going to insist the tank guard the healer? Are you going to stop the run and educate the tank on how to properly play their class? Are you going to drop group because you don't want to waste time with a terrible tank?

I just don't get your angle here.

I'll say again:

1. If you're trying to 'educate' progression raiders, you're wasting your time.

2. If you're trying to give advice to new tanks, you're doing a terrible job.

Lowbie healers DO need guard, because they are effectively in DPS gear. Healing abilities have a threat multiplier attached so that they draw aggro when using alacrity gear, to make things more difficult. In lowbie gear, where alacrity is a lot more rare than say Surge, Power, and Crit, they are putting out a lot of threat. This goes down as healers start to stack Alacrity, and their other stats go down in comparison to their DPS counterparts, so it works out that they put out less threat than most DPS.

In lowbies, guard the healer. In endgame, guard healers that are tardic enough to wear DPS gear. They need the threat reduction that Guard provides.

Lvl 30, and having just leveled my new guardian through that point (the tank with the least aoe threat overall). Its still better to guard heals than dps. "edit" for tanks that know their classes inside and out that is. I guess I can't expect a new person to have a mastery of the class before they begin to level a toon so guarding dps is basically a crutch for them to learn against.

 

Also Operative and Merc heals have very very good aoe damage for their level which is another reason to guard them seeing as they should be helping a bit with dps too.

No, it isn't. Someone whose tank is only level 30 (i.e. hasn't tanked anything harder than Camameu) ought to consider listening to advice from people who've been playing for a while. This includes "Tanks who know their class inside and out."

How many times can people write "guard does not prevent threat"? Reduced threat is still threat, and it will still trigger an attack regardless of the guard being there or not, because Healing gives ranged threat, therefore Anything not being actively tanked or dps'd will turn its attention to the healer. Meaning, that having a guard on the healer is a wasted resource.