Kinda like how they did the f2p model. You know, at first only f2p til lvl 15 to see how it goes, and then it became f2p the way it is now. Kinda funny that people would say that that wouldn't happen back then

Yeah it tends to go that way doesn't it.

So you mean time played? Which is my original point. I'm arguing it's not simply pay to win, but pay to win "faster" which isn't the same thing. In plausible? Why? Because it is contrary to your opinion. Ok....if you say so. The thing is, if we can't agree on a definition, then we will never have a resolution. We're all just spinning our wheels spouting our opinions.

Which is pure semantics.

If people could buy PvE raid gear that would still "just" be pay to win faster, so are you saying that also would not be P2W?

I can't see how this is different to getting exp boosts, and no one caused a fuss about them. Both get you the end result quicker.

It's not in the sense that those boost are also a form of P2W (as is Cartel gear for that matter).

However that stops a L50 for the ground game and isn't the ground endgame, where as this instance of P2W basically starts a L50 and is the space endgame (and actually contributes the ground end game a bit too).

If wiki want a good example of a strawman argument, I will point them at this post, I dont think anyone could do a better job.

If/when we ever see raid/pvp gear for sale in the store, Ill be right beside you.

You're absolutely right. My example hasn't happened and it's taken to the extreme. And I won't be unsubbing right now. If they did what I mentioned, you can sure bet that I would.

However, what they are doing here is unprecedented in this F2P model for ToR. So far everything you could buy was strictly cosmetic, right? Now you can buy something that's a stat upgrade to some feature in the game, correct?

You tell me, how did they not cross the line?

I'm still against this sort of behavior, but mostly on principal. If this was to spill over into other aspects of the game, eventually it would be enough.

Overall on my viewpoint: It's not enough to quit the game now, but why did BW/EA introduce anything that is in the P2W realm of behavior? If they go far enough though, I will be quitting this game solely on that change.

If you check my post history, you will find that I defend the dev's and this game a lot

But when I saw you could buy the spaceship upgrades through CC, my heart sank.

I was looking forward 1.6 for this precise reason: gear up my ship (as there's no other content for PvE'ers in 1.6)

Now, knowing that I could get out the credit card and get the upgrades, my motivation to grind the ship upgrades gets much, much weaker.

Bioware, you listened to your player base recently.

Please, this is a dangerous turn you are taking. Beware....

(also : Life day "event" = stuff to buy? -..... please. PLEASE!!!!!)

Well, if you get 240 fleet comms from the new space missions, you can get grade 8 material crate every day.

Compared to old 18min, 40 comms VS 30min, 240 comms, difference is GIGANTIC.

So in other words you get 1-4 stabilizers(200-800k creds) every day and you can use those to obtain BIS gear.

The logic goes like this. You spend RL money to buy upgrades into Soloplayer minigame. Then you use the rewards from your solo minigame to get gear that is equal to currently hardest raid content. If this is not P2W, then i dont know what is.

Well, if you get 240 fleet comms from the new space missions, you can get grade 8 material crate every day.

Compared to old 18min, 40 comms VS 30min, 240 comms, difference is GIGANTIC.

 

So in other words you get 1-4 stabilizers(200-800k creds) every day and you can use those to obtain BIS gear.

 

The logic goes like this. You spend RL money to buy upgrades into Soloplayer minigame. Then you use the rewards from your solo minigame to get gear that is equal to currently hardest raid content. If this is not P2W, then i dont know what is.

Exactly.

Pride is one thing - that is not P2W. P2W is having a statistical advantage over another player when all else is equal between the two of you simply by buying better gear than the other player can get by playing the game. Since that is not the case with anything in the store up to this point, it is not P2W. Again, it is actually the opposite, because presumably, the player who plays the game to obtain the gear would become more skilled as a result, so they would in actuality have the statistical advantage over the player who simply bought the gear and did not put in the time to "earn" it.

BJ

Let's start by going on this extreme hypothetical:

Raid Group A refuses to buy any of the new raid gear and they spend time trying to kill the bosses, slowly farming the gear, and thus making the attempts on bosses further in easier to deal with.

Raid Group B buys all the new gear and begins to attempt the bosses.

Both raid groups will still have to deal with the mechanics, but Raid Group B does have a statistical advantage because they have better stats so the learning curve is lessoned.

I do not like Space missions. I

do not play them so i do not care what they put on cash shop. But it clearly gives an advantage to the dedicated player that buys the space pack on terms of the rewards. I do not know or care how anyone will define it, P2W or not, it only feels to me that is a clear P2W situation.

And how about the future and the so called Super Secret Space Program?

Are they going to do the same?

I am worried.

Quit crying over something that has utterly no affect on your enjoyment of the game.

What if they enjoy space missions that require you to have the grade 7s to stand a snowball's chance in hell to survive? Have you tried these missions even with a fully loaded Grade 6 ship? You don't last long. And these items do not have small boosts. The armor is like 650 hull points or something jumping from Grade 6 to Grade 7. That is about a 17% increase that takes 500 Fleet comms ground out to get without being able to do the new missions that give out the most comms. Unless you drop money into the shop. This is not a cosmetic item. When you start having to pay for other PvE content, you might change your tune.

Even if you dont consider this pay to win its just an idiotic idea that makes me think that bioware still just doesnt get it, they still have no idea what makes an mmo work, why people play them.

A gear grind makes people play their game, when you sell people the gear from gear grinds and things like raids, whether its on the gtn or the cartel market youre just taking the incentive away for people to do those gear grinds and raids, take away that carrot and people get bored and leave the game.

Well yes, I do feel a bit sorry for the crafters. Hope that there will be a market for ship-parts anyways.

No crafter can really compete with the cashshop.

I didn't complain about them being a waste of time. I was excited about new space content. Maybe there are different groups of players?

I like the space missions. I do them nearly every day. Silly of me to have spent my comms on crafting packs instead of saving them in anticipation of previously purchasable by credits only parts now costing 500 fleet comms each (the ones you can get) or crafted at an ungodly high price in rare mats OR about $15 cash... a month of sub. I don't do PvP. Why don't they charge for the gear for that? (haha that will fetch some heat!)

EDIT: LOL I quoted the wrong person. Sorry, notalkjustrock!

Let's start by going on this extreme hypothetical:

Raid Group A refuses to buy any of the new raid gear and they spend time trying to kill the bosses, slowly farming the gear, and thus making the attempts on bosses further in easier to deal with.

Raid Group B buys all the new gear and begins to attempt the bosses.

 

Both raid groups will still have to deal with the mechanics, but Raid Group B does have a statistical advantage because they have better stats so the learning curve is lessoned.

But they do not have the advantage in skill or experience, only in the base stats of the armor they are wearing. Therefore, they have no more advantage outside of those stats than if they simply used a guide on some website or wiki to learn what needs to be done to succeed in the Operation. Whereas Team A, that has the lesser statistical advantage, is gaining more skill by the experiencing the full learning curve. Thus at the end, they will still be better than Team B in terms of experience and player skill, negating the advantage of the early lessoned learning curve that Team B experienced.

BJ

This is Pay To Win, plain and simple. I'm extremely disappointed.

This about says it all for me as well.

But they do not have the advantage in skill or experience, only in the base stats of the armor they are wearing. Therefore, they have no more advantage outside of those stats than if they simply used a guide on some website or wiki to learn what needs to be done to succeed in the Operation. Whereas Team A, that has the lesser statistical advantage, is gaining more skill by the experiencing the full learning curve. Thus at the end, they will still be better than Team B in terms of experience and player skill, negating the advantage of the early lessoned learning curve that Team B experienced.

BJ

Lol, what?

You're going off the assumption that Team B is lesser skilled. No where did I state that premise. Start with a control group that both groups are equally skilled. Do you think that somehow Team A will become better 3 months down the road after they've had to work harder for their gear than Team B did... if, in the end, Team B has also completed the operation? The only thing guaranteed with Team A and Team B are identical expect for buying gear is that Team B will complete the content faster... which means that my specific example is P2W.

Now, for what actually is happening... if you take two identical players and give one unlimited CC's... they will probably be completing the space missions faster since they have all of the T7 ship upgrades... thus they will be farming those quests faster... thus they will be receiving BH comms and more fleet comms at a faster rate. If a even a week goes by that the non CC player doesn't complete the same missions, then the CC player has received an advantage that is getting them gear at a faster rate. They have an advantage... hence, P2W.

In my opinion there should only be two ways to get space ship parts, either via crafting or as a reward for doing a mission, not by buying them with cartel coins/actual funds.

Also look at that Life Day stuff, why can't we get at least a few via an event or because we pay our sub each month, it feels like we are cows getting milked.

Worse is they have made the new missions require level 7 gear and because of that you can't even run them to upgrade your ship as you fly them.

It gives a choice you can grind the 1500 fleet coms for the gear the future 1400 fleet coms for the 2 scematics god knows how many boxes for the items to craft it. 150 Daily coms and 300,000 credits. And I am sure there is probably more. Or pay to win.

The same could be said if they put level 63 purple gear in the shop. Yes you can work hard to get it or you could just buy which is very close to pay to win over people that are slowly working for the gear.

To me, yes that is pay2win. But to a lot of other people it won't be because you never interact with players during the space missions.

You don't interact with players during space missions, but you interact with players in other environments and are helped by space missions.

Space missions now give out BH comms and space missions fleet comms purchase crafting packs that have blues and purples needed for the crafting of lvl 27 mods.

So you pay to win to upgrade your ships which let your skip progression to then level up your character with lvl 27 pve equipment faster than others who do not want to pay real money or who do not have the money to spend.

This is the slippery slope. It took like 3 weeks for them to blow it.

Worse is they have made the new missions require level 7 gear and because of that you can't even run them to upgrade your ship as you fly them.

No they don't. I've done them all with only 2 pieces of new gear, some can be done in pure T6. So you can farm them all by spending 500 fleet comms and bunch of credits to buy missile magazine from crafter.