I have seen the video. But I still think it was foolish on Kun's part to leave Yavin 4 undefended. If he had had a sizable fleet orbiting the planet the Republic forces would either have been destroyed, or stalled long enough to help Kun escape. In fact, Kun didn't seem to display any form of competent leadership or skill in military strategy during entire war (correct me if I'm wrong). He spent most of his time delving into the secrets of the dark side and creating his Brotherhood while Ulic, Mandalore and the Keto rampaged across the galaxy... How competent a tactician actually was he?

 

Basically, who's to say that a 'series of setbacks' won't result in MtU victory? Without his commanders he seems fairly weak (as a leader)

 

He led fanatical crusades of carnage all over the galaxy, it worked, very well, he had trashed the Republic so badly that even by the Mandalorian Wars they were not eager to fight again, that is how much carnage his forces sowed, the military still hadn't regained it's strength and as I said earlier, his acolytes would become his generals, leading their own pieces of the puzzle and guiding the chaotic crusade, Exar Kun would be the overlord, as well as the 'factory' if you will, along with the Krath war factories and space stations.

 

Mandalore does not have as many men as you think, IIRC, he had seven million Neo-Crusaders before the Revanchists got involved. Compare that to the billions that the Krath can conscript, the half a million Massassi and then swell their numbers with War Beasts and droids, then the chaos fighters that can heavily damage Mandalorian strongholds and tough defensive placements and you have an army that is almost unstoppable, yes they will be easily killed, but with such a large manpool, they fanatics aren't going to care, least of all their overlords.

 

The Republic had an entire quarter of it's infrastructure wiped out by Kun, Mandalore's space is far far smaller than the Republic's, it would take a month or three depending on how well the Mandalorians can hold out, but seriously, Kun has a big fleet, an enormous force and the best advantage you can have in war: fanaticism, so much so that death doesn't mean anything to his troops.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

I have seen the video. But I still think it was foolish on Kun's part to leave Yavin 4 undefended. If he had had a sizable fleet orbiting the planet the Republic forces would either have been destroyed, or stalled long enough to help Kun escape. In fact, Kun didn't seem to display any form of competent leadership or skill in military strategy during entire war (correct me if I'm wrong). He spent most of his time delving into the secrets of the dark side and creating his Brotherhood while Ulic, Mandalore and the Keto rampaged across the galaxy... How competent a tactician actually was he?

 

Basically, who's to say that a 'series of setbacks' won't result in MtU victory? Without his commanders he seems fairly weak (as a leader)

 

He thought the republic was not going to find him, so he sent many forces to attack.

He led fanatical crusades of carnage all over the galaxy, it worked, very well, he had trashed the Republic so badly that even by the Mandalorian Wars they were not eager to fight again, that is how much carnage his forces sowed, the military still hadn't regained it's strength and as I said earlier, his acolytes would become his generals, leading their own pieces of the puzzle and guiding the chaotic crusade, Exar Kun would be the overlord, as well as the 'factory' if you will, along with the Krath war factories and space stations.

But here in lies the problem, from my knowledge of the Great Sith War, he didn't. The only battle Exar Kun led was the invasion of Ossus. The Krath Holy Crusades began before Kun was seduced to the dark side and were led by the Keto's. Then Kun goes to Cinnagar to confront Keto and Ulic alone. Not a battle here, a duel. The Dark Reaper Campaign was led by Ulic after this. Then Kun went to Ossus personally and killed Odun-Durr - again this was a duel not a battle. It was Ulic who subjugated the Mandalorians, which began the Mandalorian Crusdades led by Mandalore. Ulic invaded Coruscant, then Kun comes along and kills his Master. Again a duel. And then finally Kun takes up the reigns and invade Ossus. After that he retreats back to Yavin 4, leaving command to Ulic once more - who betrays him and has him defeated. Kun spends all his time searching for the secrets of Freedon Nadd, tracking down and dueling people, and then establishing his brotherhood. The way I see it, he was the Vitiate of the Great Sith War - hiding away in his fortress while his minions waged war which he wasn't even concerned about, it was obvious all Kun wanted was power in the dark side.

Mandalore does not have as many men as you think, IIRC, he had seven million Neo-Crusaders before the Revanchists got involved. Compare that to the billions that the Krath can conscript, the half a million Massassi and then swell their numbers with War Beasts and droids, then the chaos fighters that can heavily damage Mandalorian strongholds and tough defensive placements and you have an army that is almost unstoppable, yes they will be easily killed, but with such a large manpool, they fanatics aren't going to care, least of all their overlords.

Again I'm unsure. The Krath were a secret society who conquered one system. How could they possibly have so many warriors? And why did they retreat to Teta and hope their presence would go unnoticed, when they supposedly had billions of warriors under their banner?

 

The Republic had an entire quarter of it's infrastructure wiped out by Kun, Mandalore's space is far far smaller than the Republic's, it would take a month or three depending on how well the Mandalorians can hold out, but seriously, Kun has a big fleet, an enormous force and the best advantage you can have in war: fanaticism, so much so that death doesn't mean anything to his troops.

This is the only evidence that the Krath had numbers, and don't forget the Mandalorians were just as fanatic.

He led fanatical crusades of carnage all over the galaxy, it worked, very well, he had trashed the Republic so badly that even by the Mandalorian Wars they were not eager to fight again, that is how much carnage his forces sowed, the military still hadn't regained it's strength and as I said earlier, his acolytes would become his generals, leading their own pieces of the puzzle and guiding the chaotic crusade, Exar Kun would be the overlord, as well as the 'factory' if you will, along with the Krath war factories and space stations.

 

Mandalore does not have as many men as you think, IIRC, he had seven million Neo-Crusaders before the Revanchists got involved. Compare that to the billions that the Krath can conscript, the half a million Massassi and then swell their numbers with War Beasts and droids, then the chaos fighters that can heavily damage Mandalorian strongholds and tough defensive placements and you have an army that is almost unstoppable, yes they will be easily killed, but with such a large manpool, they fanatics aren't going to care, least of all their overlords.

 

The Republic had an entire quarter of it's infrastructure wiped out by Kun, Mandalore's space is far far smaller than the Republic's, it would take a month or three depending on how well the Mandalorians can hold out, but seriously, Kun has a big fleet, an enormous force and the best advantage you can have in war: fanaticism, so much so that death doesn't mean anything to his troops.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but where do you get all these precise numbers like 7 million?

Normally, I would say Exar Kun would win. But the rules put him on a disadvantage (he can't use Ulic and he can't blow up Star Systems). In the end, I think he would still win, though. He would use his Forces as a distraction to sneak up to Mandalore. Then he would kill him and declare himself Mandalore or something similar.

 

However, I think I imagine a Kaggath very different from you. Personally, I would modify the rules for Kaggaths a little, so they fit more the Kaggath style we see in the game:

 

[*]The arena: the known galaxy.

 

Normally, the challanger chooses the battleground. And this would make things really interesting and also easier to imagine. For example, this Kaggath set on Coruscant would look quite different to it set on Yavin IV. It doesn't have to be one planet, it could be a star system or several specific planets + moons + space stations.

 

[*]No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era, i.e. Ulic Qel-Droma, Aleema Keto, Cassus Fett, Canderous Ordo.

 

But allies, if they aren't superiors, are part of the power base. I mean, the Sith Inquisitor gets three Moffs as allies who help him in the Kaggath and especially Moff Pyron is important. So in this case, I would include all the people you mentioned in the power bases.

 

[*]No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.

 

Again, in the SI Kaggath the Republic played an important rule as common enemy. I think that would make things more interesting too.

 

[*]No surrender, fight to the death!

 

OK, I'm not sure if this is a rule of the real Kaggath. As far as I know the Kaggath is also a battle of prestige, so if the power base of one opponent defects to the other, because he shows superior, wouldn't he win the Kaggath even if the other one flees.

 

[*]No superweapons.

 

I would drop that rule, superweapons played their parts in some Kaggaths, remember the Silencer.

 

[*]Technology level is universal: blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.

[*]Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in a different time frame but let’s just pretend.

 

Well, I like these two rules as they are.

 

I really like this series, but I think some rule changes in these directions would make it more like a real Kaggath (instead of a simple war between two power bases.)

 

 

You also asked for suggestions. So here are mine:

 

• Jedi Consular vs Sith Inquisitor
  
• Master Oteg (his Fleet + the Strike Team) vs Master Kenobi (his Forces on Utapau)... in general, two good characters against each other
  
• Queen Talia of Onderon vs Queen Amidala of Naboo
  

Edited December 2, 2012 by Maaruin

We could have a tournament style Kaggath going on!

 

This is a great idea!

 

Just saying

Edited December 2, 2012 by Eightus

Actually i think this comes down to whos power base is stronger and more resilient. Kun or Mandalores. Its one of the most very basic and universal military strategy, your army can be as strong as anything, but it the people behind it that are the key. Could one side destroy the other sides power base. in a war like this, thats what i believe it would come down to. Sith rule by fear and intimidation. Mandalorians on the other hand, actually believe in what they do. i think that Mandalores power base would hold up much better then Kuns.

Actually i think this comes down to whos power base is stronger and more resilient. Kun or Mandalores. Its one of the most very basic and universal military strategy, your army can be as strong as anything, but it the people behind it that are the key. Could one side destroy the other sides power base. in a war like this, thats what i believe it would come down to. Sith rule by fear and intimidation. Mandalorians on the other hand, actually believe in what they do. i think that Mandalores power base would hold up much better then Kuns.

 

This would work in any other scenario. However, the Krath and Massassi are fanatically loyal to Kun. When one dies, the others don't care, they just keep going. Not to mention Kun has War Beasts that are bound to his will.

I really like this series, but I think some rule changes in these directions would make it more like a real Kaggath (instead of a simple war between two power bases.)

 

 

You also asked for suggestions. So here are mine:

 

• Jedi Consular vs Sith Inquisitor
  
• Master Oteg (his Fleet + the Strike Team) vs Master Kenobi (his Forces on Utapau)... in general, two good characters against each other
  
• Queen Talia of Onderon vs Queen Amidala of Naboo
  

You make good points but the purpose of the rules are to:

ensure that combatants can't play instakill moves which render them indestructible (Malachor V came close to this).

ensure the combatants aren't restricted by the arena, and can bring the full force of their power bases into play

ensure no one has an unfair advantage because they have a powerful ally, and ensure the debate doesn't become a duel between two characters in the power base.

ensure there is a clear winner

ensure that victory is achieved through the combatants own skills rather than the ability of their allies.

 

I understand that in a real Kaggath things would be different, but for the purpose of debate things have to be modified. In the future however, some rules might be removed to make the duel more interesting.

 

And Barsenthor vs Darth Nox sounds like a very interesting duel...

But here in lies the problem, from my knowledge of the Great Sith War, he didn't. The only battle Exar Kun led was the invasion of Ossus. The Krath Holy Crusades began before Kun was seduced to the dark side and were led by the Keto's. Then Kun goes to Cinnagar to confront Keto and Ulic alone. Not a battle here, a duel. The Dark Reaper Campaign was led by Ulic after this. Then Kun went to Ossus personally and killed Odun-Durr - again this was a duel not a battle. It was Ulic who subjugated the Mandalorians, which began the Mandalorian Crusdades led by Mandalore. Ulic invaded Coruscant, then Kun comes along and kills his Master. Again a duel. And then finally Kun takes up the reigns and invade Ossus. After that he retreats back to Yavin 4, leaving command to Ulic once more - who betrays him and has him defeated. Kun spends all his time searching for the secrets of Freedon Nadd, tracking down and dueling people, and then establishing his brotherhood. The way I see it, he was the Vitiate of the Great Sith War - hiding away in his fortress while his minions waged war which he wasn't even concerned about, it was obvious all Kun wanted was power in the dark side.

 

Oh I wasn't suggesting he led all of those campaigns personally, but this is how he would lead them, just massive invasions with carnage as his main weapon, I doubt there would be many tactics beyond the basic that Kun would employ, but I would wager that eventually he'd seek out Battle Meditation, something he showed when he empowered all his acolytes before they went on the whole night of the long knives deal.

 

Again I'm unsure. The Krath were a secret society who conquered one system. How could they possibly have so many warriors? And why did they retreat to Teta and hope their presence would go unnoticed, when they supposedly had billions of warriors under their banner?

 

Basically, I am not saying the mighty Krath Warriors just have hordes after hordes, we know they had three separate massive forces that made up different parts of Kun's Empire, but we also know that they did conscript regular men into your typical army, when the war against the Republic intensified.

 

This is the only evidence that the Krath had numbers, and don't forget the Mandalorians were just as fanatic.

 

The Mandalorians were fanatic yes, but not all of them, the proper Mandalorians were, but many of the Neo-Crusaders gave up in battle, we see this at the Second Battle of Dxun when the Exile used a trap to cut off their escape, we also saw such a thing in latter stages of the war, which is commented on in the KotOR comics, I believ by the Republic officer before he bumps into Zarrick(?).

 

Now you could easily argue that given the ruthlessness of the enemy, many soldiers wouldn't just turn themselves in because they'd die anyway, but I certainly believe it would demoralise the greener crusaders.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

Oh I wasn't suggesting he led all of those campaigns personally, but this is how he would lead them, just massive invasions with carnage as his main weapon, I doubt there would be many tactics beyond the basic that Kun would employ, but I would wager that eventually he'd seek out Battle Meditation, something he showed when he empowered all his acolytes before they went on the whole night of the long knives deal.

Seems Mandalore at least has a tactical advantage then. But would he be able to withstand Kun's vicious onslaught?

Now you could easily argue that given the ruthlessness of the enemy, many soldiers wouldn't just turn themselves in because they'd die anyway, but I certainly believe it would demoralise the greener crusaders.

Morale is definitely important. And I believe seeing an army of massasi warriors, bloodthirsty Krath and monstrous terantenek bearing down on you would be enough to demoralize even the most fanatic of warriors. Battle meditation would definitely aid this. Did this happen at all in the Great Sith War? And was he or any of his Sith capable of battle meditation?

 

And Maaurin actually makes a good point. Kun could infiltrate Mandalore's forces, board his flagship and kill him while Mandalore is distracted by the war. I could definitely see the Kaggath playing out this way.

Kun, not even a contest.