One of the things I've wondered about since I started playing the game is the nature of light and dark in the force. I feel like the game treats light and dark as states of being rather than philosophies. For instance, even the darkest, most evil Jedi is still seen as a Jedi, which is considered a light side character. Sith, while once a species, is now considered to be any dark side force user.

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )

One of the things I've wondered about since I started playing the game is the nature of light and dark in the force. I feel like the game treats light and dark as states of being rather than philosophies. For instance, even the darkest, most evil Jedi is still seen as a Jedi, which is considered a light side character. Sith, while once a species, is now considered to be any dark side force user.

 

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )

The Jedi/Sith duality is mostly gameplay limitations (you can't go be Sith and join the Empire if you're a DS Jedi, for instance).

From a lore standpoint, not all LS Force users are Jedi, and not all DS Force users are Sith. Not all Force users are even LS or DS, either - the Voss and Zakuul are pretty grey (if you ignore their bat-**** crazy leadership). Being a Sith or being a Jedi is largely alignment-based, but there's also life philosophy to consider. This is why Kylo Ren isn't a Sith - he has a lot of DS knowledge and training, but it wasn't done as apprentice to a Sith lord so he necessarily can't be a Sith.

IMO Sith and Jedi are just orders of Force users. Tython's quest line hints that there have been different Force-using orders in the galaxy history; they seem to come and go with charismatic leaders or particularly chaotic eras. They have always seemed comparable to monastic sects to me.

The Sith and Jedi orders may simply be the ones which have withstood the test of time, though clearly the structures of each order change dramatically in the time between Old Republic and New Republic. Within the game's context, the PC gets lumped into one category or the other but I think that is a limitation of the storytelling medium rather than a hard rule of Sith=DS, Jedi=LS.

A Force user is a force user; the individual may have an affinity to dark or light, or may obtain mastery of both, and certainly the sect they belong to has an influence on the philosophy and styles the force user is exposed to. But IMO, it is definitely a dynamic system with an awful lot of variation.

One of the things I've wondered about since I started playing the game is the nature of light and dark in the force. I feel like the game treats light and dark as states of being rather than philosophies. For instance, even the darkest, most evil Jedi is still seen as a Jedi, which is considered a light side character. Sith, while once a species, is now considered to be any dark side force user.

 

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )

Bioware never respected the actual nature of the Dark Side. So essentially in SWTOR, dark light don't exist and it's on the point of view and different clothes.

So in SWTOR, you can get a dark Jedi because of it's okay, you can kill and torture, and use anger, and still be nice.

In the official universe, it's different. You can access the light side only by calm, patience, and self-control. You can access the dark side using strong emotions like anger and hate. It's way easier to use the dark side, but it makes you crazy in time. So Jedi reject it. Siths embrace it. But they are organisations before anything, so you don't become Sith just because you fell to the dark side. Even though most of the tiime it will be the case.

Still, there are other organisations, like the witches of Dathomir and the night sisters of Dathomir.

Now some people will jump at my post to say it's BS, because they don't like it. They want to do whatever they want without consequences, and they think it's possible in Star Wars just because they want it to. I won't argue with them because there's no point. They will bring up some examples from the extended universe which are not canonical and completely ignore the movies and the official TV shows. If you want too listen to them you can. If you want the truth, well don't take my word for it, just look at the movies and TV shows.

But, Bioware agrees with them, so in SWTOR, it's true. Sometimes anyway, since the continuity sucks in TOR.

Bioware never respected the actual nature of the Dark Side. So essentially in SWTOR, dark light don't exist and it's on the point of view and different clothes.

 

So in SWTOR, you can get a dark Jedi because of it's okay, you can kill and torture, and use anger, and still be nice.

 

In the official universe, it's different. You can access the light side only by calm, patience, and self-control. You can access the dark side using strong emotions like anger and hate. It's way easier to use the dark side, but it makes you crazy in time. So Jedi reject it. Siths embrace it. But they are organisations before anything, so you don't become Sith just because you fell to the dark side. Even though most of the tiime it will be the case.

 

Still, there are other organisations, like the witches of Dathomir and the night sisters of Dathomir.

 

Now some people will jump at my post to say it's BS, because they don't like it. They want to do whatever they want without consequences, and they think it's possible in Star Wars just because they want it to. I won't argue with them because there's no point. They will bring up some examples from the extended universe which are not canonical and completely ignore the movies and the official TV shows. If you want too listen to them you can. If you want the truth, well don't take my word for it, just look at the movies and TV shows.

 

But, Bioware agrees with them, so in SWTOR, it's true. Sometimes anyway, since the continuity sucks in TOR.

Isn't just TOR where this happens. Both Kyle Katarn. and Jaden Korr could freely use darkside abilities without embracing the dark side. Katarn would go so far as to say that techniques are not inherently dark or light, and all that mattered was how they were used.

Isn't just TOR where this happens. Both Kyle Katarn. and Jaden Korr could freely use darkside abilities without embracing the dark side. Katarn would go so far as to say that techniques are not inherently dark or light, and all that mattered was how they were used.

Yes I know, I already addressed that in my post.

Don't forget to mention that Kyle AND Jaden, just like Revan, are player characters, in RPG videogames.

I won't argue with you, you can consider them if you want, especially in the SWTOR context, but try to be objective when giving informations.

Yes I know, I already addressed that in my post.

 

Don't forget to mention that Kyle AND Jaden, just like Revan, are player characters, in RPG videogames.

 

I won't argue with you, you can consider them if you want, especially in the SWTOR context, but try to be objective when giving informations.

I consider it to have transcended mere gameplay mechanics when Katarn directly references it in character.

One way for them to blur this distinction between light and dark would be to change the Sage/Sorcerer mechanics to reflect the Light/Dark "meter" we have on our Characters.

So that whether you use Lightning or Projection is determined not by class, but by Light / Dark alignment.

So that a DS Jedi has Lighting, and a LS Sorcerer has Projection.

It would add a significant degree of immersion.

All The best

I consider it to have transcended mere gameplay mechanics when Katarn directly references it in character.

Kyle has also struggled with the dark side, fallen victim to it a few times, and has suffered as a result. He always returns back to the light but Kyle isn't without his issues. Luke, the grandmaster of the order, and the main authority when it comes to the light and dark straight up tells his son that there is light and dark and no grey area.

Jedi and Sith light and dark are just labels. This game gets it pretty accurate that the force isn't inherently good or evil, it's how each individual uses the force that defines THEM. The force itself has a will, for there to be balance between those who use it for good or evil, but these labels do not apply to the force itself. Hope that cleared things up.

@ OP : I already addressed DeltaBos' affirmations, if you want to see both our arguments, you can look it up here.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=878511&page=11

Isn't just TOR where this happens. Both Kyle Katarn. and Jaden Korr could freely use darkside abilities without embracing the dark side. Katarn would go so far as to say that techniques are not inherently dark or light, and all that mattered was how they were used.

I always thought he notion that certain abilities were inherently dark or light was somewhat silly. Why should force choke for example be inherently evil (it was described as dark side in some EU sources) when it is potentially even a non-lethal way to incapacitate someone? Luke Skywalker choking the Gamorrean guard for example prevented him from having to kill someone who would have used force to prevent him from seeing Jabba / rescuing his friends. The way it was used should make it a light side act.

I always thought he notion that certain abilities were inherently dark or light was somewhat silly. Why should force choke for example be inherently evil (it was described as dark side in some EU sources) when it is potentially even a non-lethal way to incapacitate someone? Luke Skywalker choking the Gamorrean guard for example prevented him from having to kill someone who would have used force to prevent him from seeing Jabba / rescuing his friends. The way it was used should make it a light side act.

*insert THANK YOU GIF here*

In some games they can't even decide if an ability is Jedi or Sith ability. In KotoR mind trick is a Sith ability but it's considered a "light alignment" ability in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. People seem to think that the force, a cosmic presence that binds the galaxy together, has the moral concept of an infant. The force is not aligned to anyone or anything, it's the people who use it that choose "light or dark," believing that the force takes sides in their petty philosophical quarrels.

I also always assumed that "dark side" and "light side" are more of a matter of state of mind than actual abilities. When you use the light side, you have to be calm and free from strong emotions, and you view the Force as an ally, not a servant. When you use the dark side, you use the power of your emotions and pretty much enslave the Force to do your bidding. The curious thing is, that if this is the case, then there could be a morally good dark side user (who uses the Force on dark side state of mind but would rather not murder people left and right ). Morally evil light side user could be more complicated, as I've understood that the Force isn't fan of murdering people for no good reason (so even if you were delusional enough to think Force choking people to death is a good thing even when you're calm and free of emotion, the Force might refuse to do that?).

Anyway, the light/dark aligments here are more of a gameplay feature than an actual way to show if your character is using the light side or the dark side. Though, with "you can be a dark side user and a jedi"-thing, I'd say that anyone who is a member of the Jedi Order is technically a jedi, and since your PC does not get kicked out for using the dark side...

I always thought a force-user had to use anger/rage to fuel something like force-lightning

Interesting enough, you often do not even need these emotions. Many Sith in-game do not really show great anger, unless they follow the example of movieBanner and are simply always angry inside.

I also always assumed that "dark side" and "light side" are more of a matter of state of mind than actual abilities. When you use the light side, you have to be calm and free from strong emotions, and you view the Force as an ally, not a servant. When you use the dark side, you use the power of your emotions and pretty much enslave the Force to do your bidding. The curious thing is, that if this is the case, then there could be a morally good dark side user (who uses the Force on dark side state of mind but would rather not murder people left and right ). Morally evil light side user could be more complicated, as I've understood that the Force isn't fan of murdering people for no good reason (so even if you were delusional enough to think Force choking people to death is a good thing even when you're calm and free of emotion, the Force might refuse to do that?).

If you watch the movies and TV shows, and if you listen to Lucas, what you're saying isn't an assumption, it's just the obvious fact, it's even litteraly said by everybody.

If you watch the movies and TV shows, and if you listen to Lucas, what you're saying isn't an assumption, it's just the obvious fact, it's even litteraly said by everybody.

It's way easier to use the dark side, but it makes you crazy in time. So Jedi reject it. Siths embrace it.

You yourself seem to disagree with the part of a dark side user being able to be morally good (or at least "not completely psychopathic").

I always thought he notion that certain abilities were inherently dark or light was somewhat silly. Why should force choke for example be inherently evil (it was described as dark side in some EU sources) when it is potentially even a non-lethal way to incapacitate someone? Luke Skywalker choking the Gamorrean guard for example prevented him from having to kill someone who would have used force to prevent him from seeing Jabba / rescuing his friends. The way it was used should make it a light side act.

What the character is doing isn't important, what is important is how he obtained the power. Luke wasn't angry. He used the force to incapacitate enemies, and he accessed the Force through peace, calm and serenity, as you can see and hear in the movies.

If you take the prequel, you can see Anakin killing in cold blood, in two occasions. The sand people, and Dooku. But he succumbed to the Dark Side on the first occasion, not the second one, he was calm, and in control, when killing Dooku. He just did because he was ordered to. That's an example of two identical acts, but not both using the dark side.

You yourself seem to disagree with the part of a dark side user being able to be morally good (or at least "not completely psychopathic").

Not necessarily. In the first seasons of Rebels, the hero unknowingly uses the Dark Side more and more, for very good reasons. In the last episode, he starts to become crazy, and it seems that the third season will be about that.

Just like hell, the dark side is paved with good intentions.You don't need to be evil to use the dark side, just like you don't need to be an addict, to use drugs, it comes after.

Not necessarily. In the first seasons of Rebels, the hero unknowingly uses the Dark Side more and more, for very good reasons. In the last episode, he starts to become crazy, and it seems that the third season will be about that.

 

Just like hell, the dark side is paved with good intentions.You don't need to be evil to use the dark side, just like you don't need to be an addict, to use drugs, it comes after.

I wouldn't know since I'm avoiding the new Disney canon like it's the plague, but the good old Expanded Universe had characters like Mara Jade, who most likely used the dark side, but never went nuts.

I wouldn't know since I'm avoiding the new Disney canon like it's the plague, but the good old Expanded Universe had characters like Mara Jade, who most likely used the dark side, but never went nuts.

*internet high five*

EU is my cannon, anything else is just an alternate timeline as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't know since I'm avoiding the new Disney canon like it's the plague, but the good old Expanded Universe had characters like Mara Jade, who most likely used the dark side, but never went nuts.

I wouldn't say most likely. She wasn't a Sith, but a tool. It is totally thinkable that he didn't make her use the dark side, especially since she seems to be described as a "cold" killer, which brings us to your point that a "light side" user could be considered before. She would have been probably way more loyal and easy to control than a dark side user. And even if she did use the dark side, she probably never needed to rely on the force a lot, she wasn't fighting force users.

So my question is: Does the game treat light and dark as static for purposes of convenience or is there some lore out there that more clearly defines the force as a whole with Jedi and Sith being the names applied to marginalized ideologies subject to change? (I know the prequel shows Anakin as Jedi falling to Sith which implies Jedi and Sith are just philosophies. Also, I long ago gave up trying to figure out what the game was trying to do with Revan as a character. )

Going back to this just to make sure the question is clearly answered, Jedi and Sith are names applied to two different ideologies, but both make the incorrect assumption that the force has "sides." Light and Dark are exclusively labels applied to different techniques of using the force. Individuals who claim to use the "Light side" simply use the force with a clear and serene mind, they approach the force as a companion, etc., we've all heard the speeches. The "Dark side" supplements the use of the force with emotions, and most people who use the force that way act out of selfish desires.

That being said, the point needs to be stated very clearly. These are just labels that individuals who wield the force put on it. The force itself does not have any sides, it is a conscious entity present throughout the universe. It has a will, but it does not actively support any people who wield it except in extreme purposes (such as Darth Plagueis and Sidious attempting to pervert it, and the force reacted with the creation of Anakin Skywalker.) The ultimate goal of the force is for there to be a universal harmony in the galaxy, but an all the different ideologies of force users sort of makes this difficult to achieve. There needs to be a balance between: life and death, and those whose nature is to be selfless, and those whose nature is to be selfish. Essentially, the goal or will of the force is for there to be a sort of yin/yang thing going in in the galaxy, but those who can use the force tend to just screw up the balance somehow.