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Juggernaut vs Assasssin tank


hunterraaze

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I'm getting close to finishing up my DPS Merc, and want to roll a tank for my second alt. Because I already have a Merc, I don't want to rolling another BH. So, that leads the Juggernaut, and the Assassin. I will be focusing almost exclusively on PvE content, flashpoints when leveling up, ops when i'm at 50. I keep reading that tanking with the Jugg, is very hard and has a hard time holding aggro, is this the case? I'll be more so focusing on ops when I get to the right level. So which one is better for tanking on ops? Please no, do what you like, I can adapt prettty well with a certain playstyle, so I want to know what is the best for Flashpoint/Ops tanking.
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Juggernauts do have a hard time holding agro. Their DPS (and TPS) ceiling is the lowest of the three tanks by a fair margin. Additionally, they lack the tools necessary to build threat from a 10 meter range, and so kiting is immensely difficult for them.

 

In trade though, they get the best "panic button" cooldowns in the game. A juggernaut can press a pair of buttons and be literally invincible for 12 seconds. Unfortunately, they can only do this once every 3 minutes, so the utility is somewhat reduced. Juggernauts also have very even mitigation. Their different statistical cases are all within a few percent of each other, so they take damage very steadily (modulo their self-heal, which is somewhat spiky).

 

Assassin tanks are, in many ways, the opposite. Assassins have the highest DPS (and TPS) ceiling of the three tanks, though they aren't *that* far ahead of Powertechs. They have a tremendous number of tools at their disposal which allow them to be extremely strong in a wide variety of scenarios. However, using those tools requires very precise timing and understanding of boss mechanics. A lot of the skill in playing an assassin tank at a high level is in understanding how your abilities interact with boss swing timers, knockbacks, movement phases, etc.

 

Assassins have very strong utility cooldowns on short timers, but they're hard to use properly as they are damage-type dependent. Assassins have extremely spiky mitigation, where the common case is quite good, the uncommon case is spectacular, and the slightly-less common case is abysmal. Overall, their survivability is the highest of the three tanks by a hair (when fully statted and min-maxed), but their effective HP is well below that of a Powertech (and only slightly above a Juggernaut).

 

Overall, I like my shadow tank a *lot*, and wouldn't trade him for any other class. It's not an easy tank to play well though. I spend a lot of time working on deeply understanding boss mechanics, thinking about ideal cooldown timings, and just watching my priority queue. This effort really pays off, but it does have a tendency to get a bit distracting. In the times where I have to direct the group or correct errors during a fight, I very rapidly degrade into the worst possible tank as my rotation flounders and I miss my timings.

 

If you want a class with an incredibly high skill ceiling, pick assassin. Juggernauts aren't bad as far as the skill ceiling goes, but assassins are really outstanding as long as you put in the effort to master the class.

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I've got both an Assassin and Guardian (Jugg mirror) tank that both do endgame content. I really like both of them and I don't think 1 is inherently better in general but there are times when I think "Wow my other toon would have a much easier time with this". Now that isn't to say either one is taking too much damage or not holding enough threat (AoE aside but I'll get to that later), its more the utility and range differences. For Example:

- Rakghoul Behemoth is much easier on my Assassin thanks to the 10m Range.

- Annihilation Droid is much easier on my Guardian tanks to the leap and knockbacks, ditto for Vorgath

- NiM Jarg hurts a LOT on my Guardian but noticeably less on my Assassin thanks to increased range, self heal and higher ele/int resistance

 

While leveling, I found my Assassin felt really squishy until about level 35. Reason being you have no control over when your self heal goes off until you unlock Harnessed Darkness. Once you unlock Wither though, the game changes: huge AoE threat, self heal available roughly every 10 seconds and a 5% damage debuff on all enemies. This is also about the point you will get your healer companion, so its even easier. Comparatively, my Guardian felt pretty tanky from the get go. Courage and Cyclonic sweeps made Focus management (and group threat) a lot easier once they were unlocked but I never felt squishy.

 

In terms of TPS, my Guardian in full 61s can put out about 2.2k burst TPS (first 20 seconds) and about 1.6k sustained without using taunts. When my Assassin was in Tionese/Columi mix he was reaching 1.8k sustained with very little burst deviation. I do run a Hybrid build Guardian so my single target TPS is higher but my group threat is a bit lower.

 

In terms of skill cap on the classes. Assassin has a high skill cap in regards to survivability: managing a rotation that lets you use the self heal as frequently as possible, keeping Dark Ward up and they are able to use its CDs more pro-actively thanks to the short CDs. Guardians have a high skill cap in regards to mob control and threat: using leap -> push -> leap to position mobs (instead of a pull), keeping threat up, learning how to generate AoE threat and when to use taunt/AoE taunt. The only survivabilty skills a Guardian has to worry about are to use Blade Storm and Riposte on CD.

 

One thing to remember when comparing them: A bad Assassin tank dies, but a bad Jugg tank gets the party killed. That is where their reputations come from. Now a healer can cover a bad Assassin tank but no one can cover a bad Jugg so its more obvious if they are bad.

 

In terms of utility skills Guardian has:

- Leap

- Friendly Leap

- Push

- AoE mezz

- Enure to buy the healers time

- 2 universally great CDs

 

While the Assassin has:

- Stealth + CC

- Pull

- 2 situational great CDs and a self cleanse

- Speed

- AoE knock back

 

If you think you can handle learning to hold threat as a Jugg, I recommend it whole heartedly. From start to end you feel like a tank and its a really fun, fast and hectic playstyle. If not, play an Assassin and learn how to stay alive. I do find my Assassin to be less engaging in a long fight because most of it is just using 5 abilities and 2 CDs while Guardian is 8-10 depending on the fight.

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Assassins are easier to be decent at, and holding threat is far easier. Guardian tanks have a higher skill cap and are harder to play well. They both have their uses and are both good - provided you can play them well.

 

I dont agree. Infact I think it is the other way around.

 

As a sin tank, if you fail, you die. Although it needs only 5 abilities, there is no reason not to do more. I regularly use force slow and crushing darkness for fun. and use spike/electrocute on mobs. but this is mostly on faceroll fights.

 

I think assassins tanks are easy to get by with, but much harder to master.

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  • 4 weeks later...
I regularly use force slow and crushing darkness for fun. and use spike/electrocute on mobs. but this is mostly on faceroll fights.

 

I think assassins tanks are easy to get by with, but much harder to master.

 

Sounds like you just get bored and try to find stuff to do... How is that hard to master? lol

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my main is a shadow tank named Jaberse on the Ebon Hawk. i can show you what a shadow tank should look like lol.

 

they have the highest mitigation potential as well as the single greatest CD on around a 31 second cool down in fights where your getting hit rapidly. although our armour is lowest out of the tanking classes we more than make up for it in mitigation stats. fully min maxed (before Dreadguard gear) im sitting at a 40.25% damage reduction 33.33% defence chance (which in all honesty, ive never seen anyone with higher in this stat) 66% shield chance (W/ kinetic ward) and a 60% absorbtion sitting at just shy of 25K HP.

 

all of this combined with a great defensive panic button on a very short cooldown make us incredibly versatile because although we may take a good deal of damage from force and tech attacks we can trn all that damage to 0 by one quick keystroke or mouse click. on top of everything we have the largest amount of consistent self healing (not absolutely positive on that so don't quote me).

 

in no way am i talking down the guardian, the guardian played very well and a shadow played very well are probably pretty damn close to equal and are suited for different tasks.

 

shadows make great main tanks and guardians make excelent off tanks for all their temps and "oh ****" buttons.

 

optimally if i were running a raid. i would prefer to have a guardian tank with me over any else.

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my main is a shadow tank named Jaberse on the Ebon Hawk. i can show you what a shadow tank should look like lol.

 

they have the highest mitigation potential as well as the single greatest CD on around a 31 second cool down in fights where your getting hit rapidly. although our armour is lowest out of the tanking classes we more than make up for it in mitigation stats. fully min maxed (before Dreadguard gear) im sitting at a 40.25% damage reduction 33.33% defence chance (which in all honesty, ive never seen anyone with higher in this stat) 66% shield chance (W/ kinetic ward) and a 60% absorbtion sitting at just shy of 25K HP.

 

all of this combined with a great defensive panic button on a very short cooldown make us incredibly versatile because although we may take a good deal of damage from force and tech attacks we can trn all that damage to 0 by one quick keystroke or mouse click. on top of everything we have the largest amount of consistent self healing (not absolutely positive on that so don't quote me).

 

in no way am i talking down the guardian, the guardian played very well and a shadow played very well are probably pretty damn close to equal and are suited for different tasks.

 

shadows make great main tanks and guardians make excelent off tanks for all their temps and "oh ****" buttons.

 

optimally if i were running a raid. i would prefer to have a guardian tank with me over any else.

 

I agree that a Guardian & Shadow combo is the best tanking set up although I'd swap the Guardian in as MT and have the Shadow OT. Recent content however pretty much destroys the MT/OT distinction thanks to multiple bosses and repeated tank swaps.

 

In terms of your 33.33% Defense chance: stock Rakata Guardian gear has close to 40% Defense but needs to be itemized down.

 

In terms of CDs: Shadow have the best situationally useful CD in the game. Guardians have the best Universally useful ones. Enure is also better than Battle Readiness and Adrenalin Surge if you have a healer.

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unless the tanks can get into TFB at level 30....no

 

you must raid with a horrible tank.

 

I finished TFB HM in 1hr 40 mis yesterday with 2 sin tanks(me and the other was a pug in full campaign, I have 2-3 piece DG) It took us an extra 20 mins i would estimate on operator wipex2 as the tanks didnt have the co-ordination that I have with my other tank as we do it regularly(he is a jugg)

 

Bad sin tanks are just that, BAD.

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imo sin tanks are not unlike their death knight counter parts from wow....i remember when wrath came out....every noob wanted to play a dk...and ofcourse they all queued up as tanks in dungeon finder...(who wouldnt want instant queues) anyway to my horror and everyone elses, 95% of the dk tanks were HORRIBLE, thats not to say dk tanks couldnt work....its just most were very bad...verry spiky hp...kind of squishy(sound familiar?) anyway warrior and pally tanks were well established and were generally better tanks than dks....occasionally you'd run into a really good dk tank that would completely blow you away...but they were 1 in a MILLION
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I think its no question on playing a tank well, if you see the high dmg the dps classes run you have a hard time with every tank. Assassin seem to be faster at building aggro.

 

I just can talk for myself but i think after times changed you have a hard time as a tank. At the old days you usualy were able to get the aggro, as a tank you usualy watch for the main boss. If you have a second tank, he watches for the mobs and has his eyes on the group window like a healer always does. Bad thing at the "new age" is that dps seem to be lazy, they never noticed how tanks and healer ran their part. Dps usualy cant take the dmg from a boss or his mobs...here you have it the other way, if you take a sniper/gunslinger, they seem to be able to tank better then a real tank.

 

think it was a kids decition to go for dealing dmg on the main boss not keeping an eye on the group or holding his dmg low till the tank could grab the aggro, they always started screaming and called you a looser, not noticing how hard it was to watch a whole group when you had to keep working on 4 mobs or more.

 

Beeing a tank is not that nice in this game. It can be rater frustrating seeing they seem to be better at it then you. To grab aggro you need aggro building specials but if they are on cd you lack imense dmg to grab the aggro from a dps....and if you know our kids, they cant keep still they hit and then scream, they wont help you on that part by holding their dps low when they get attacked.

 

So whatever tank you going to run its a fulltime job, or doing nothing because they got the skill to get a boss down without you (youre a waste of dps). Wonder why there are so many classes out here when you just need one or two.

 

Dont ask me about healing, its way more terrible then it is at a bad game. They just working for some not thinking kids and destroy all a class stays for....only good thing , everyone can finish a heroic solo, some because they get a bit dmg reduct, some because they run imense dmg, and some because they have both.

 

I run platin bosses at heroics on all classes (SOLO), its not that hard if your got the right comp with you.

 

 

Most classes are a waste of time, they get destroyed when they keep listen to kids.

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I see not alot of people are talking about PT tanks why is that? I rolled one and love it.

 

Compared to the other tanks they are the most accessible to pick up and play. Very simple priority based abilities, not many buttons.

 

Other than keeping up heat screen (which will happen even by not looking for it), mitigation is static, so a powertech doesn't have to spend his resource to increase his mitigation like the other 2 tanks.

 

High passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns are weaker but far less specialised and more applicable to more situations. When you think about it, kolto overload really only has value when used in a pro-active way, same goes with oil slick. Its almost like we have 1 cooldown and that's energy shield.

 

I chose it as my main purely because I didn't want to use a lightsaber, but it just happened to be the simplest of the tanks to play. Bothers me sometimes that there is little pride in powertech tanking, but I don't think about it too much.

 

Also seems to be the least played of the tanks, which further plays into the consensus that juggs and sin player base is of lesser quality. The fact that they are much more popular and much harder to play well, compared to pt's who are far less popular but much easier to play well. In the early days of swtor it was common for some people to consider the powertech the best tank purely because of this discrepancy.

Edited by Marb
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