The big reason that most tanks have "problems" with threat is because a large number of bosses have prolific amounts of threat drops. The ST taunts in TOR are on 15 second CDs for good reason: a lot of the bosses expect you to use them about that often. Pretty much any time you're knocked back, expect it to be a threat drop. If the boss suddenly turns to attack someone else and it's not expected (ex: Soa ball lightning or mind trap), don't be afraid to use taunt; it'll be back up in 15 seconds. On bosses without any threat drops, no tank should have any threat problems outside of the first 10-15 seconds of a fight. Some people just aren't used to BW's love affair with threat drop mechanics.

This seems to be the root of the problem for most people trying to tank. They (probably because of mechanics in other games) don't expect to have to use taunt after the fight has been going for a couple of minutes and that simply doesn't work in SWTOR. Taunt, Intercede, Guard, and other threat management tools are critical.

Guardian is only useful in 1-1 boss tanking (extremely useful, I might add) and pvp (as a hybrid, though arguably not a tank, it's nasty). Fwiw, commandos and gunslingers are notorious for pulling aggro. Commandos can handle themselves, gunslingers are ragdolls.

AOE threat generation is utterly horrible. Vanguards are much better.

Level a guardian in pvp (Vig tree or hybrid). It's more fun. PVE is painful, IMO. Re-spec later if you want to tank.

But with threat tuned this tight, and DPS classes with no threat dumps (I might be mistaken here), I find I occasionally lose threat on single targets too, but only with a crazy DPSer who started pounding on the mob the same second I did. Even then, I can hold it for a long while, but I know I need to have a finger hovering over that taunt key for use any second. Taunting doesn't seem like the emergency button it should be, but part of my tanking rotation.

Im almost positive that all DPS classes have a threat dump. I personally play assassin MT and have a Merc that is almost at 50. From my experience with leading raids and running with other classes almost all of them have threat dumps except maybe Powertech DPS. The examples I am thinking of: Assassin can Force Cloak to remove themselves from combat instantly wiping their threat and Mercenaries have Chaff Flare which reduces threat towards all targets. Force Cloak is a 3 minute CD, but Chaff Flare is only 45 sec CD. Since it costs no heat I recommend all mercenaries use it in their rotation. I have been told that Imperial Agents have a similar ability and I know Marauders have something as well. I havent covered every DPS class, but they probably also have aggro dumps.

From a tank perspective regarding threat, yes it can be a pain in the ***. I like the current system though, I enjoy having to work hard to hold aggro on my targets. Even if threat was a bit more lenient almost all bosses have some sort of aggro dump mechanics at certain stages of fights. With that said, keep in mind that it may not be DPS pulling off you, its possible the mob just reset aggro because they reached a certain stage of the fight or used a certain ability etc.

Guardian/Jugg AoE threat gen is actually slightly better than Assassin/Shadow: the two classes generate roughly the same amount of threat and Guardians/Juggs are actually about to sustain it for a longer period of time and for less activation time. It's close enough that player skill matters more than the class differences but, equal skill, Guardians will have marginally better AoE threat gen.

The problem isn't the threat generated on what you hit, but rather, on what you hit. It is a geometry issue, the A in AoE. Smash hits hard, but I hit more things more often with Wither and Discharge. And what you don't hit, you don't gain lots of aggro on. In a game with lots of mobs content to stand still and shoot from where they are, that matters.

Doesn't hurt either that Assassins have a bit better package to support it all. They can reach out and AoE taunt, while the Jugg's is self centered. They've got Overload, on a 20s cooldown, and Force Pull, on a 45s one, to help gather mobs. Wither has a bit of range. It slows down targets, buying a bit more time. I can be in one group and AoE taunt at range a second group. And so on.

I play both and when it comes to AoE support, the Assassin just has the better tools.

Assassin/Shadow ST threat gen is actually some of the best in the game. TK Throw hits like a truck, as does PA Project. I've got no clue where you're getting the "keeping threat is hard as a Shad/Sin" from. My main is a Shadow tank and I've never had problems keeping threat.

Yup, single target threat is good. About the only things that can pull threat from me are mauraders and pyro BHs and, from playing a pyro BH, I can assure you that that isn't an assassin issue.

Anyway, I like the aggro mechanics in this game. A bit of work/skill in tanking is a good thing, as is DPS actually having to improve their game.

AOE threat generation is utterly horrible.

I've asked this question more than once and never gotten any real responses, when is AoE threat worth anything in this game? Any tank needs to hold aggro on a group for about 10 seconds MAX for end game content. If you're dying to trash then tank aggro isn't your problem.

I've asked this question more than once and never gotten any real responses, when is AoE threat worth anything in this game? Any tank needs to hold aggro on a group for about 10 seconds MAX for end game content. If you're dying to trash then tank aggro isn't your problem.

There are trash mobs in the end game operations that actually do have a rather large amount of health in packs of 5 or 6. They take a good minute of AOE from the Ops group to actually down them. So good AOE tanking would help out here. However, the damage these mobs do is negligible so if some of them break loose its not a big deal because the damage can easily be healed through even with a DPS tanking an add.

Edit: I was just thinking about it a bit more and there are some trash pulls in Karagga's palace that are not so easy to just burn down as well and these adds hit much harder so again, AOE threat is not useless in this game, it is something that is necessary for certain parts of endgame operations.

Doesn't hurt either that Assassins have a bit better package to support it all. They can reach out and AoE taunt, while the Jugg's is self centered.

The AoE taunt is actually self centered for both Juggs and Assassins. The only targeted AoEs are Slow Time and Force Breach, and, personally, I've found the Point blank AoEs more useful than the targeted AoEs: you're going to be in melee anyways and all of the attacks have the same radii, so the disadvantage of the targeted AoEs is that you have no appreciable control over the location of the AoE whereas with point blank AoEs, you do.

I play both and when it comes to AoE support, the Assassin just has the better tools.

I play them both as well, and I've found the inverse to be true. Targeted AoEs just don't have the same usability as PbAoEs: if 2 targets are 8m apart, Slow Time will only hit one (it's got the same 5m radius) whereas a Force Sweep placed between the two targets *will*. The only time you're going to have a harder time with AoEs as a Jugg compared to a Shadow is if you're simply not proficient with the tools available to you.

There are trash mobs in the end game operations that actually do have a rather large amount of health in packs of 5 or 6. They take a good minute of AOE from the Ops group to actually down them. So good AOE tanking would help out here. However, the damage these mobs do is negligible so if some of them break loose its not a big deal because the damage can easily be healed through even with a DPS tanking an add.

 

Edit: I was just thinking about it a bit more and there are some trash pulls in Karagga's palace that are not so easy to just burn down as well and these adds hit much harder so again, AOE threat is not useless in this game, it is something that is necessary for certain parts of endgame operations.

Neither KP nor EV have any packs that I've found to be dangerous in a way that more AoE threat will help IMO. The biggest trash issues in KP is people failing to kill in the correct order allowing murder droids to accumulate and that's not something that AoE aggro will help. In EV the packs of dogs before the second boss take a while to whittle down, but they're not dangerous and between smash, the AoE taunt, and Intercede I don't have much issue holding their attention.

Neither KP nor EV have any packs that I've found to be dangerous in a way that more AoE threat will help IMO. The biggest trash issues in KP is people failing to kill in the correct order allowing murder droids to accumulate and that's not something that AoE aggro will help. In EV the packs of dogs before the second boss take a while to whittle down, but they're not dangerous and between smash, the AoE taunt, and Intercede I don't have much issue holding their attention.

I think this highlights a major difference between SWTOR and WoW that many people, including Tanks, haven't really internalised yet, namely that you're not meant to AoE tank everything. The "trash" around the boss is by and large there to give the DPS something to kill while the Tank builds a threat lead on the Boss. If the DPS are properly prioritising their targets, even the ones that start on the Healer aren't going to do enough to influence the tide of battle before they're gently smoking chunks of meat.

Obviously there are occasional exceptions, and that's when the Tank has to earn their loot

The AoE taunt is actually self centered for both Juggs and Assassins. The only targeted AoEs are Slow Time and Force Breach, and, personally, I've found the Point blank AoEs more useful than the targeted AoEs: you're going to be in melee anyways and all of the attacks have the same radii, so the disadvantage of the targeted AoEs is that you have no appreciable control over the location of the AoE whereas with point blank AoEs, you do.

Incorrect on the radii.

I play them both as well, and I've found the inverse to be true. Targeted AoEs just don't have the same usability as PbAoEs: if 2 targets are 8m apart, Slow Time will only hit one (it's got the same 5m radius) whereas a Force Sweep placed between the two targets *will*. The only time you're going to have a harder time with AoEs as a Jugg compared to a Shadow is if you're simply not proficient with the tools available to you.

There's a spot in Belsavis for an Imperial daily with 5 mobs decently nicely lined up, in a ' . ' . ' formation. If I use Smash where the center one is, I hit 3. If I use Discharge or Wither on that same mob, it hits all 5. Toying with a melee mob a bit, moving it around to see how close it has to get before I hit another ranged mob near by, and comparing that to how close I know I'd have to be with my Jugg to smash it, I'd estimate it has a 7-8 radius. In any case, far enough away that I know I would not hit the ranged mob with Smash if I was standing where my Wither target was.

This is most likely to make up for it being harder to position. But in a game with ranged mobs that don't move, the larger radius is an advantage.

Which isn't to say a Jugg can't handle the same situation in a slightly different way. Chuck your saber at the far left or right one and position yourself to smash the other 4. Job done well enough, maybe a taunt to follow when/if it changes targets to the healer. So I'm not saying a Jugg can't hack it. Just that he's got to work a bit harder at it.

Incorrect on the radii.

I've actually gone out and tested it with enemies that won't generate proximity aggro and confirmed the 4-5m range. I went to Tython and spent a good 15 minutes fighting the clusters of 4-5 battle droids in the ruins, using the game's own ranged binaries (within range or not within range of abilities with 4m melee ranges and 10m short range ranges) and, if I stood on top on an enemy that was more than a smidge (1-2 steps) outside of melee range of the targeted enemy, the enemy that I was standing on top of would not get hit (which would have been obvious since, if it had been, the target would have died). Their hp was low enough that any hit would have instantly killed them. There were only 4-5 of them in each group which is within the 5 target maximum. The test was done to the best empirical standard, and I encourage you to go and repeat it. It will demonstrate exactly what I've been saying. Their radii are exactly the same.

This is what's likely screwing up things in your Belsavis example; there is also the consideration that the targeted AoEs are centered exactly on the target whereas the PbAoEs are centered on you; if the back 3 targets are exactly the radius of Force Breach/Slow Time away from the central target, using Force Sweep right in front of the central target won't hit them since the distance from you to the edge targets is greater than the distance to the central target by just enough to edge out your AoE. If you really wanted to hit them, you'd need to stand exactly on top of the central target rather than just in front (where you would be positioned with Force Leap).

So I'm not saying a Jugg can't hack it. Just that he's got to work a bit harder at it.

Force Sweep every 12 seconds for free compared to Slow Time every 8 seconds for 30 Force. The first takes up both fewer resources and more animation time. The only advantage that Slow Time has over Force Sweep is the 10m range, which is offset by the fact that it is targeted rather than point blank. Guards/Juggs have to have be better with their personal placement, which is, honestly a joke if you're not a terrible player considering they only cast 2-3 times per minute. Shadow/Sins have to be better at managing their tighter resources as well as having to ensure that the *enemies* are properly placed, which means using LoS tricks or Force Pull (which only comes up once every 45 seconds) to prevent hitting unintended targets or hitting a greater number of targets. There isn't really even an argument: Jugg/Guards have a better time with using their AoEs. The only advantage that Shad/Sins have is range, and even that is questionable since it's only 10m (there is also the point that Whirling Blow hits an unlimited number of targets whereas Cyclone Slash can only hit 5, but so rarely do you actually fight more than 5 targets that it's functionally an outlier utility that can be ignored without any effect).

This is what's likely screwing up things in your Belsavis example; there is also the consideration that the targeted AoEs are centered exactly on the target whereas the PbAoEs are centered on you; if the back 3 targets are exactly the radius of Force Breach/Slow Time away from the central target, using Force Sweep right in front of the central target won't hit them since the distance from you to the edge targets is greater than the distance to the central target by just enough to edge out your AoE. If you really wanted to hit them, you'd need to stand exactly on top of the central target rather than just in front (where you would be positioned with Force Leap).

I've thought of that as well and I have done it standing right on top of them. It doesn't hit the side ones. And, quite frankly, I don't expect them to. I know how close I have to be to hit things with Smash and these guys aren't close enough. Plus the middle guy is actually slightly back from the side guys, so standing on him actually puts me further away from them than if I stand in front of him. Either way, it doesn't hit them.

And just to verify this, I went back there just now. I stood to the right of the mob. I smashed. I didn't hit the far right one (or the far left one, of course). I moved a little closer to the right one, still didn't hit it with Smash. To hit it with Smash, I had to move about 3/4ths of the distance your companion normally keeps from you. That's not a rounding error. That's a different radius. Then I ran the test a few more times. Many Eshka died for this information

Now, it might be a difference between Imp and Republic sides. I don't know. But what I do know is that Smash has a smaller radius than Wither and Discharge do.

I'd be curious as to how your characters would do on these same mobs. This particular location is one you should be able to access as a Republic. It is in the Esh'kha Tactical Center, west of the Signal Monitoring Center, the guys in question being in the center of the big room, at loc -1236, -2870, 101. Can get to the area by going through a tunnel along the south wall where the Belsavis World boss is.

The -2870, by the way, is right in the middle line, where the center mob spawns, right at the edge between it and -2869. To hit a side one with Smash, I had to be at -1235, -2872 or -1235, -2868, depending on which one I went for.

I love tanking and I have a HELL OF A TIME holding aggro on multiple ranged/melee mobs. It's straight impossible sometimes. I just do the best I can and hope they eventually give me a few more AoE taunts to balance the whole thing out. I play a Vanguard and with only one AoE taunt and my only other taunt constantly on CD it's a pain in the *** to be honest but like I said, I just do my best trying to keep everyone alive...

This isn't WoW where the DPS is gonna melt in 1.4 seconds if they pull aggro. I can't think of any packs of Champions or even Elites that have multiple ranged mobs. If you're trying to hold aggro on a group, what's the make up? You shouldn't bother trying to hold aggro on normals, they won't survive long enough to do any damage.

This isn't WoW where the DPS is gonna melt in 1.4 seconds if they pull aggro. I can't think of any packs of Champions or even Elites that have multiple ranged mobs. If you're trying to hold aggro on a group, what's the make up? You shouldn't bother trying to hold aggro on normals, they won't survive long enough to do any damage.

Assuming the DPS know their job which is a very bold assumption. I saw normals gun down the healer because the DPS focused on the elite that I attacked.

I've heard that Guardians have the weakest AoE threat of any tanking class, so it's not just you.

This and their DPS (same goes for Juggs) is fairly low compared to other tank-capable classes. It's not that it's impossible to hold agro, it's just far easier on the other classes with tank spec.

I think threat should only really be a minor variable that should only be a factor in the beginning of a fight or when a new mob appears. The standard rotation should be enough to keep aggro.

It generally is, unless you're just doing it wrong or horribly undergeared. What freaks out most people that are used to getting threat and then keeping it forever in other games is that TOR is *resplendent* with threat drops. The devs put taunt on a 15 second CD (rather than the 1 minute standard that most people are used to) for good reason: they expect you to use it *a lot*. Any tank that hasn't learned to spot a threat drop isn't going to last long in TOR, and any tank that isn't fast with his/her taunt application isn't going to last long either. In my own guild, I've been blamed for pulling threat on a boss when the boss used a threat drop because the MT didn't realize it was a threat drop. People just need to realize that threat is not something that the players affect; the enemies they're fighting like affecting it too.

Yes, tank threat is off because it doesn't scale.

At end-game gearing...

DPS gets more dps in the form of primary stat increases,

Tanks get more survivability and only get dps increases from primary stat increases, which is very small.

Additionally, dps specs put out a lot more damage than tank specs. The +50% threat a tank gets usually covers this for lower tiers of gearing and lower levels, where tanks don't actually stack any defensive stats and have damage stats like everyone else.

As the gearing continues, DPS starts getting further and further ahead of tank dps as the tanks get survivability stats and the dps gets dps improvement stats.

So you will inevitably reach a point where tank's can't hold threat on dps due to gearing. I see it in Rakata gearing and a bit before. You see it at lower levels if you have an under-geared tank or very geared dps.

The only option is for tanks to drop some tanking gear/stats in favor of dps, or to change their spec to one that favors more dps.

The game needs a way for threat to scale with gearing. WoW had the right idea by making threat scale with HP, as tank HP increases quite a lot on tank gear vs dps gear. So the preferred solution here would be for tanks with more HP gear (i.e. tanking gear) to put out more threat than tanks with lower HP (lower tiered gear or not tanking gear).

Yes, tank threat is off because it doesn't scale.

I'm curious where exactly you're arriving at this sentiment from.

Tanks have less of their primary stats in set gear, but not appreciably less. The actual sets all vary in whether they have the high primary, low endurance or roughly-the-same-for-both armoring, which is where a majority of your primary stats come from. The splits are all 3/2 or 2/3 for every armor set, including tanks. The only stat advantage that DPS characters have over tanks is in the assignment of secondary stats, which don't create as large of a discrepancy as you might think. A majority of damage and DPS is primarily dependent upon your primary stat and your MH/OH stats (weapon damage and either Force or Tech damage). Those values scale the same for everyone. Since tanks simply need to maintain 66% of the offensive capabilities of a DPS character to have their threat scale evenly (1.5 threat mod and 1.0 threat mod), tanks are actually doing just fine, since that 66% comes from the values that tanks and DPS share; the other 33% comes from taking surge, crit, and power instead of defense, shield, and absorb.

In short, it does scale; it just doesn't scale how you think it does because you don't know the comparative quantities provided by the relevant stats and pieces of gear.