no. advice to reroll doesn't wash precisely because its the game. aka it should be enjoyed. and not everyone enjoys rerolling.

 

games should be fun, not work. its people who are against advanced class change that try to make it more srs business then it really is

So the players who don't want to do level 1-54 content should be able to generate a level 55 character?

The players who have no fun doing PvP should be able to get PvP gear and items with credits rather than WZ commendations?

No fun in crew skills - so a "advance to 450 skill" option - possibly via the cartel market.

There are lots of things in the game that some people don't like doing. If you want the game to remain fun then you don't do them.

The only way to try a different class is to re-roll. If you don't enjoy re-rolling....then don't.

As with the above examples - you don't get to experience certain aspects unless you're willing to put the work in.

It maybe a "game" - but this isn't some console bash away at some keys type of game.

This is the problem with MMO's and the "console generation" - want anything and everything "right now".

 

snip

It maybe a "game" - but this isn't some console bash away at some keys type of game.

This is the problem with MMO's and the "console generation" - want anything and everything "right now".

FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!

I know these are collated and not necessarily your own opinions but I just thought I'd pin my observations to your format.

No, that's fine. I created the list specifically for that purpose, so people could discuss the pitfalls and/or merits of each point.

I try to keep the list updated with any new suggestions or pro/con items as they appear.

It just makes it easier for folks to discuss the issues at hand without having the "I said this" or "that has already been argued and/or suggested" discussions.

So the players who don't want to do level 1-54 content should be able to generate a level 55 character?

No one has suggested anything like that. I'm not sure where you're pulling that analogy from. Did your world fall apart when they let characters in this game respec? What's the difference been changing specs and changing advanced class (outside of an arbitrary designation)? Wow has specs within classes that are far more fundamentally different than most of the advanced class distinctions in this game. How did being able to respec ruin this game or that one?

I wouldn't hold your breath.

I'm not. Obviously I am fine with things as they are, or I would not be able to post here. But AC switching would improve the game for some (many?) without negatively impacting the game any (hyperbole to the contrary notwithstanding). The only issue is "Would it be worth it from a resource standpoint?"

This is the so-called con list?

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

1) Pure speculation...there has only been maybe dozen people who are completely against this judging by this thread. If it was a bad idea there would be more people against it.

2) People wanted it. It was a huge let down when it never happened. The whole class system was designed for AC changes.

3) Its not our fault if an AC is poorly designed. Why should someone have to redo everything because BW/EA cant fix an AC?

4) I agree maybe some restrictions, but in the end, its our character, if we want to change AC every day let us do it. (do not confuse that statement - its strictly meant for AC changing, whole class changing is another story)

5) Lighten up, its a game, if this is a con then I sure hope that you guys were fighting this hard against race changes because thats more extreme then AC changes.

6) They dont adjust classes that often to where FOTM would happen.

7) This would only apply to pug groups mostly, and when you pug you know the consequences. Even when doing FPs, you have the option of grouping with friends/guildys, or even finding people off general chat and make sure they arent new to that AC. This is completely avoidable.

Please let me know when you have an actual con list.

huh i find it funny that the same 4 ppl (well 3 now, but i assumed ratajack will smell the necro and jump in later) keep posting on this thread.

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaack.

This is the so-called con list?

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

1) Pure speculation...there has only been maybe dozen people who are completely against this judging by this thread. If it was a bad idea there would be more people against it.

2) People wanted it. It was a huge let down when it never happened. The whole class system was designed for AC changes.

3) Its not our fault if an AC is poorly designed. Why should someone have to redo everything because BW/EA cant fix an AC?

4) I agree maybe some restrictions, but in the end, its our character, if we want to change AC every day let us do it. (do not confuse that statement - its strictly meant for AC changing, whole class changing is another story)

5) Lighten up, its a game, if this is a con then I sure hope that you guys were fighting this hard against race changes because thats more extreme then AC changes.

6) They dont adjust classes that often to where FOTM would happen.

7) This would only apply to pug groups mostly, and when you pug you know the consequences. Even when doing FPs, you have the option of grouping with friends/guildys, or even finding people off general chat and make sure they arent new to that AC. This is completely avoidable.

 

Please let me know when you have an actual con list.

First, let's try this again. For those with comprehension challenges, the devs have stated MULTIPLE TIMES that AC's are fundamentally different class designs, and they see them as different classes. That makes them different classes in the eyes of the devs, the only eyes that truly matter. Allowing AC changes, therefore, IS allowing CLASS changes.

Now let's look at your excuses.

1. The numbers of those for and against class changes are about even across the many threads regarding this hot topic.

2. This game was NOT designed around class changes. There were MANY more people during beta that were against class changes. This is evident from the fact that the devs chose to disallow class changes, something they would NOT have done had the majority wanted them.

3. Not all classes are designed equally and what is OP today may be nerfed tomorrow. Why should they allow you to change classes simply because the OP class you chose today gets nerfed tomorrow, or because you did not do any research and chose the underpowered class from the start?

4. Why should anyone be allowed to change their class willy-nilly.

5. First, race changes are COSMETIC only. They do NOT affect a character's fundamental game play mechanics. Class changes do affect a character's fundamental game play mechanics. There is a world of difference in those two types of changes. Second, it's a game, so what? If you don't like the rules of a game, go find a game that you do like.

6. When dealing with class balance, especially changes stemming from PVP complaints, it si impossible not to have a FOTM. There will always be an OP class and a class that is the whipping boy of the game. Those classes may change from time to time, but there will ALWAYS be a FOTM.

7. First, how will you know the person is telling the truth when they say "I didn't change my class"? Second, if they do not allow class changes, then there will be no issue.

No one has suggested anything like that. I'm not sure where you're pulling that analogy from. Did your world fall apart when they let characters in this game respec? What's the difference been changing specs and changing advanced class (outside of an arbitrary designation)? Wow has specs within classes that are far more fundamentally different than most of the advanced class distinctions in this game. How did being able to respec ruin this game or that one?

Do you mean the "arbitrary designation" made by the DEVS, the ones who designed this game and the only ones who count? That arbitrary designation?

I would say that one is changing spec and the other is changing CLASS since that is how the devs see AC's, as different classes.

Do you mean the "arbitrary designation" made by the DEVS, the ones who designed this game and the only ones who count? That arbitrary designation?

 

I would say that one is changing spec and the other is changing CLASS since that is how the devs see AC's, as different classes.

Yep - the same devs that announced "we will have AC swapping available" 5 mos before early access and then CHANGED THEIR MINDS; THOSE DEVS/PRODUCERS. Those same devs/producers aren't calling it a class change, btw. They're calling it an Advanced Class choice. If they meant it's a "class choice", they wouldn't have invented an "advanced class" designation. Just like a college degree and a high school degree are both degrees but the degrees do not represent the same things at all. As I said, changing ACs is less drastic a change in play style in many cases in this particular game than changing specs is in other games or even within some ACs here. Outside of the gag reflex over "class change is bad", what makes AC swapping so repugnant? BTW, no one or almost no one (not confirming) in this massive thread has suggested swapping classes even if you and those in your camp frequently filter out the "A" in "AC" for the purposes having an argument.

Yep - the same devs that announced "we will have AC swapping available" 5 mos before early access and then CHANGED THEIR MINDS; THOSE DEVS/PRODUCERS. Those same devs/producers aren't calling it a class change, btw. They're calling it an Advanced Class choice. If they meant it's a "class choice", they wouldn't have invented an "advanced class" designation. Just like a college degree and a high school degree are both degrees but the degrees do not represent the same things at all. As I said, changing ACs is less drastic a change in play style in many cases in this particular game than changing specs is in other games or even within some ACs here. Outside of the gag reflex over "class change is bad", what makes AC swapping so repugnant? BTW, no one or almost no one (not confirming) in this massive thread has suggested swapping classes even if you and those in your camp frequently filter out the "A" in "AC" for the purposes having an argument.

Those devs have said multiple times that AC are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and they see them as DIFFERENT CLASSES. Are you going to tell me that you know better than the devs? You may not see them as different classes, but the people in charge do.

They chose the term "advanced class" because it allowed them to have 8 CLASSES per faction while only having to create 4 STORYLINES per faction. When they changed their minds regarding class changes due to the majority of people being against class changes, they went to great lengths to ensure that people knew their choice of AC was PERMANENT and could NOT be undone.

Now, every player is told at least 4 separate times by 2 separate NPC's that their choice is PERMANENT and cannot be undone. Every player has to acknowledge this at least twice by clicking confirm in the little pop-up confirmation box that they understand it is a permanent choice and that they are choosing the class they want. Despite the fact that every player knows the restrictions on class changes, we still have countless threads begging the devs to change those restrictions because people are too lazy to use the mechanics already in place to play a new class.

If you want to play another class, then the mechanics already exist in game to enable you to do so. It's called re-roll.

Those devs have said multiple times that AC are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and they see them as DIFFERENT CLASSES. Are you going to tell me that you know better than the devs? You may not see them as different classes, but the people in charge do.

Yeah! Sure! And SWTOR will never be F2P...

Those devs have said multiple times that AC are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and they see them as DIFFERENT CLASSES.

Right skill tree says "hi"!

Yep - the same devs that announced "we will have AC swapping available" 5 mos before early access and then CHANGED THEIR MINDS; THOSE DEVS/PRODUCERS. Those same devs/producers aren't calling it a class change, btw. They're calling it an Advanced Class choice. If they meant it's a "class choice", they wouldn't have invented an "advanced class" designation. Just like a college degree and a high school degree are both degrees but the degrees do not represent the same things at all. As I said, changing ACs is less drastic a change in play style in many cases in this particular game than changing specs is in other games or even within some ACs here. Outside of the gag reflex over "class change is bad", what makes AC swapping so repugnant? BTW, no one or almost no one (not confirming) in this massive thread has suggested swapping classes even if you and those in your camp frequently filter out the "A" in "AC" for the purposes having an argument.

swapping AC is not a cosmetic thing. You can't go from a dual wielding sentinel to a single bladed guardian with a shield off hand at the flip of a switch. Nor would I expect a healing Commando with an Assault Cannon to switch AC and then become a blaster rifle vanguard tank. People think its just cosmetic, people also think its super expensive just swapping out gear mods and armor, or fully augmenting gear. Now take that with the AC change and your swapping out basically every piece of armor you have, fully augmenting it, new relics, new companion gear. People think its purely a cosmetic change, that only thing it involves is the skill tree.

Take into account skill of the player involved (people complain enough about bad tanks) now take into consideration a dps sage swapping to shadow tanking, or dps commando to vanguard tank. dps vanguard to commando heals. DPS to DPS swap is probably fine, DPS to tank/heals tends to get ugly quickly.

You would basically be starting from scratch which is why it would just be easier to swing an alt.

Yeah! Sure! And SWTOR will never be F2P...

What does the devs seeing AC's a different classes have to do with F2P? That's not even apples and oranges. That's more like apples and teepees.

Right skill tree says "hi"!

Left and center skill trees say "hi". You ignore, BTW, that even the right skill trees are NOT identical. They share the same name and many of the skills, but they are NOT identical.

What does the devs seeing AC's a different classes have to do with F2P? That's not even apples and oranges. That's more like apples and teepees.

 

Left and center skill trees say "hi". You ignore, BTW, that even the right skill trees are NOT identical. They share the same name and many of the skills, but they are NOT identical.

He was demonstrating that just because they one time said one thing, it's not unchangeable.

ALL the base class skills are IDENTICAL! Half of any classes "rotation" is based around BASE skills. Left tree, right tree, middle tree...the class is the class, AC is just an artificial wall separating the two.

Again, this boils down to the fact that there hasn't been even ONE valid reason not to allow AC change. NOT ONE after all these freaking pages. NONE!

These developers have promised a lot of things, mostly lies. And "fundamental" does not fit here.

lied how so? And you wonder why we get "soon" or "we're looking into it".

Lying would imply malice, I can't think of one thing that was so blatantly contradictory to imply malicious intent.

I guess they could put a " *subject to change" after every decision they make based on the current state of the game. Such that any comment made prior to current state will be open to interpretation. IF they could predict the future they wouldn't be making video games.

He was demonstrating that just because they one time said one thing, it's not unchangeable.

 

ALL the base class skills are IDENTICAL! Half of any classes "rotation" is based around BASE skills. Left tree, right tree, middle tree...the class is the class, AC is just an artificial wall separating the two.

 

Again, this boils down to the fact that there hasn't been even ONE valid reason not to allow AC change. NOT ONE after all these freaking pages. NONE!

There have been plenty of valid reasons not to allow AC changes. Just because you don't agree with the reasons does not make them any less valid.

He was demonstrating that just because they one time said one thing, it's not unchangeable.

 

ALL the base class skills are IDENTICAL! Half of any classes "rotation" is based around BASE skills. Left tree, right tree, middle tree...the class is the class, AC is just an artificial wall separating the two.

 

Again, this boils down to the fact that there hasn't been even ONE valid reason not to allow AC change. NOT ONE after all these freaking pages. NONE!

That's right. I forgot. You know more than the devs, so the devs must be wrong when they say that AC's are DIFFERENT classes, no matter what the player's opinion are. Oh, wait...

There has been one valid reason to allow class changes. Laziness is NOT a valid reason.

There have been plenty of valid reasons not to allow AC changes. Just because you don't agree with the reasons does not make them any less valid.

Name ONE please.

Name ONE please.

There's 330+ pages of them. Go back and read those pages. You could even shorten that and read one of LordArtemis' condensed posts.

We could post them again, but since they do not mesh with your desire to see class changes, you would choose to ignore them as you have this entire thread.

There's 330+ pages of them. Go back and read those pages. You could even shorten that and read one of LordArtemis' condensed posts.

 

We could post them again, but since they do not mesh with your desire to see class changes, you would choose to ignore them as you have this entire thread.

Beat me to it

There's 330+ pages of them. Go back and read those pages. You could even shorten that and read one of LordArtemis' condensed posts.

 

We could post them again, but since they do not mesh with your desire to see class changes, you would choose to ignore them as you have this entire thread.

No...that's not how it works, if you think you know a valid reason, list it Rat. Gimme ONE...make it good.

Beat me to it

So you can't name ONE either? Classic lol. Whining and being nosy are the only "reasons" I've seen.