Not only do you prove my point that you're a ********, you're a willfully ignorant one or one that is simply incapable of reading multiple sentences together and recognizing them as one coherent thought. In LITERALLY the sentence before my claim of increased replayability I said that each class has its own unique story. Then at the end I specifically mentioned that this increases replayability for leveling.

But thanks for trying so hard to look intellectually superior to everyone else only to fail at basic reading skills.

Your arguments for WoW are mostly looking at the game through rose colored lenses. Level without repeating quests? You can skip around a fair bit 1-60, but Outland/Northrend (esp Outland)? Yeah that isn't happening. Even if you could, with each new batch of content you simply will be repeating the vast majority of quests for each alt. Hell, for a long time you could do every single quest Horde side and not hit 60 without significant grinding.

Bracketed PVP didn't exist on release, and didn't grant XP until extremely late in the game's life (late wrath, early cata, can't remember which) so it was NOT an option for leveling and was horrible since it was filled with twinks. Even now, being a 20 in the 20-29 bracket makes you a free kill. At least in SWTOR you can compete in a 1v1 except against lvl 40+ guys, and then you don't just die immediately still unlike lowbies each wow bracket.

Dungeon Finder will be a great addition to SWTOR, no argument. Though WoW only added it in Wrath (4 years after release), just so we're clear.

By all means continue to delude yourself and act like a jerk, but don't expect to gather any followers.

Lol how the hell can u say u did'nt know u could'nt change it. They say it like 3 times when u are doing it. The only possible way is if u like closed ur eyes and was clicking until u got ur advanced class lol.

Anyway hell no u should'nt be able to change it. So basiclaly it would make the game only have 4 class's each having 6 talent trees's and allowed to play 6 different specs!? cmon man that just ridiculous. The system is fine it makes the game basically have 8 playable classes they just do it a little different. Just put the damn duel spec in.

Not only do you prove my point that you're a ********, you're a willfully ignorant one or one that is simply incapable of reading multiple sentences together and recognizing them as one coherent thought. In LITERALLY the sentence before my claim of increased replayability I said that each class has its own unique story. Then at the end I specifically mentioned that this increases replayability for leveling

 

But thanks for trying so hard to look intellectually superior to everyone else only to fail at basic reading skills.

Ah, you see, I saw what you posted, but assumed it couldn't possibly be your full reasoning because it is an argument FOR advanced class switching and you are against advanced class switching. You say this game derives its replay value from 8 superbly written story lines that engrosses the player in the actions of his character. Lovely, I agree! I space bar'd through the third time I had to listen to some senator hire me to lay the beat down on the migrant merchants guild, but you better believe I was paying attention each and every time I did a class quest on Coruscant. I don't think its enough to say it gives more replay value than WoW, but that's a discussion for a later time.

There's just one tiny little problem with that, you see, advanced classes share a story line. This replayability isn't there when you are rolling your second trooper just to see how a vanguard plays. So it comes back around to the question, if the replayability isn't there, why make people slog through all the class quests a second time, and all the side quests for the, however-many-characters-they've-leveled-already-teenth time, to experience the advanced class?

I'm sorry that you find me arrogant. *shrug* I rub people the wrong way because short sighted posts that make assertions without reason annoy me. Not as much as pretend internet psychologists though... so you're at least three steps ahead of the last people who called me an arrogant ******e.

Anyway hell no u should'nt be able to change it. So basiclaly it would make the game only have 4 class's each having 6 talent trees's and allowed to play 6 different specs!? cmon man that just ridiculous.

Fascinating, why is that ridiculous? Seems to me six talent trees are twice as good, and I'm never going to level 8 characters to cap. Hell, I'm probably never going to level 4 characters to cap.

There would be no reason to play anything but trooper... Good ranged DPS, good melee DPS, good heals, good tanking.

Hell, they warned you when you were choosing that you wouldn't be able to change your Advanced Class. Did nobody actually read that?

I'm sorry, but if you want to play a different AC, you can do what everyone else does, and make a second character and level him up.

There would be no reason to play anything but trooper... Good ranged DPS, good melee DPS, good heals, good tanking.

Yeah, a trooper would be the druid of this game if they let you advanced class switch. Of course, WoW still has plenty of players that aren't druids... maybe all those warriors and rogues haven't gotten the memo yet?

Ah, you see, I saw what you posted, but assumed it couldn't possibly be your full reasoning because it is an argument FOR advanced class switching and you are against advanced class switching. You say this game derives its replay value from 8 superbly written story lines that engrosses the player in the actions of his character. Lovely, I agree! I space bar'd through the third time I had to listen to some senator hire me to lay the beat down on the migrant merchants guild, but you better believe I was paying attention each and every time I did a class quest on Coruscant. I don't think its enough to say it gives more replay value than WoW, but that's a discussion for a later time.

 

There's just one tiny little problem with that, you see, advanced classes share a story line. This replayability isn't there when you are rolling your second trooper just to see how a vanguard plays. So it comes back around to the question, if the replayability isn't there, why make people slog through all the class quests a second time, and all the side quests for the, however-many-characters-they've-leveled-already-teenth time, to experience the advanced class?

 

I'm sorry that you find me arrogant. *shrug* I rub people the wrong way because short sighted posts that make assertions without reason annoy me. Not as much as pretend internet psychologists though... so you're at least three steps ahead of the last people who called me an arrogant ******e.

Yes, advanced classes share a storyline, that puts them on par with EVERY class in WOW where there are no unique storylines past the starting areas. That doesn't mean you can switch classes in WoW, it doesn't mean you can switch classes here.

You seem to think that just because someone sees things differently than you that their opinion is incomplete, stupid, or without reason. If someone gives you a reason you dismiss it because your interpretation is different. I could just as easily have been condescending when saying that your repetition of quests argument above could easily mean that ALL classes should be able switched between at will in wow, but I don't feel the need to respond in such a manner.

As I said before, it was a deliberate design decision to not make one class that could "do it all". Be my guest to feel that is stupid, or say that it makes no sense. I'm sorry you can't come to terms with others feeling that way, but please continue being a jerk on the internet, its nothing new.

if you want to feel how the different AC plays, roll an alt on the opposing faction

if you are opposed to rolling alts of a different faction, why should Bioware give you choices when you have already decided to shut choices away

furthermore,

Yeah, a trooper would be the druid of this game if they let you advanced class switch. Of course, WoW still has plenty of players that aren't druids... maybe all those warriors and rogues haven't gotten the memo yet?

because shamans are not as good at tanking or healing or dps as a warrior, mage, or preist

they can fufill one of those roles mediocrely, and then add buffs to the party to make EVERYBODY be better at their job (yeah i know mediocrely isnt a word, my bad)

an assassain CAN tank proficiently and a sorceror CAN heal proficiently, why do you demand BOTH, just roll an alt

No.

Allowing advanced class switching encourages Flavor-Of-The-Month classes, class stacking and abuse of raid positions. It allows a raid leader with a Powertech Tank, OP Healer and DPS Sorcerer to flip them into Assassin Tank, BH Healer and Sniper without losing the levels and gear they had previously invested.

This denies new players an opportunity to get into raids (why recruit that Sniper I need and rotate a bench when I can have people respec?), it devalues the uniqueness of each class, it downplays the importance of spec mastery (ideal comp trumps the difference between "excellent" and "absolute best" execution - no, don't compare "bad" to "good" that gap doesn't actually exist in competitive raiding) and it makes investing in alts worthless.

-

"But I don't want to put in the work to level an alt! I think my Assassin should be a Sorcerer on a whim!".

Tough.

That barrier NEEDS to exist, it preserves the end game. After all, why stop at AC? Why can't I just push a button and change my class into another class? "But that's not what I'm arguing..." yes, it absolutely is, you're just using the semantics of "advanced class" to cover up what you're really asking for: a shortcut to be whatever classes you want.

Rift tried that, it was, and still is, a disaster in PVP, and they have basically been doing everything in the power to move *away from that idea* in recent design. It doesn't work, it leads to problems, and it causes class / spec imbalances to become the norm for raiding. Currently there is a barrier that puts a huge time block on class / spec stacking beyond the ultra-high-end (where it belongs) - with such a change, it becomes the norm for all raiders and PVPers - not a good thing.

Yes, advanced classes share a storyline, that puts them on par with EVERY class in WOW where there are no unique storylines past the starting areas. That doesn't mean you can switch classes in WoW, it doesn't mean you can switch classes here.

Switching advanced classes here, not classes. And, as I have pointed out repeatedly, in WoW you can level an alternate class on completely different story lines. If a story line is being done for the first time, it's unique.

I level a mage in WoW, it's a blood elf. It gets all the way to 85 on fresh new content, at 58 it travels to dreaded Hellfire Peninsula, at 70 it travels to Borean Tundra, at 80 it goes to Mount Hyjal. I level a priest in WoW, it's a forsaken. It starts with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT quests in a completely different zone. Up to 58 I do not step into a single zone that I've already quested in. At 58 it travels to Silithus, at 60 it skips Hellfire and goes to Zangarmarsh, at 70 to Howling Fjord, at 80 to Vashijr. Completely unique leveling experience, repeating none of the same quests or zones. That you continue to assert that doing around 30 unique class specific quests and repeating the same 120 or so side quests gives you a better replay value is laughable to me. Especially laughable because we are discussing someone who can't do 30 unique class specific quests, we are discussing someone who has to do the exact same 30 unique class specific quests twice.

Your posts cause me to condescend to you because you can't hold the thread of an argument, you can't make an assertion that stands up to the least bit of analysis, and you can't seem to realize this.

You want to say something smart and relevant, my suggestion would be start by arguing what you know. You don't know the design philosophy behind this game, so stop trying to say you know the reason why advanced class switching was never introduced. You don't know about WoW, apparently, so stop trying to tell me about WoW. Argue what you know.

Aside from the arguments about "you should not be able to switch from rogue to mage" or semantic equivalents, the game is pretty damned clear when you are choosing your AC that once you have chosen it, you cannot un-make that change.

Ultimately, it does not matter what WoW or any other game does, because SWTOR is not WoW, no matter how much people want it to be or how much some people try to say it is a WoW clone.

SWTOR does not allow you to change your AC, so either delay making the decision until you have an opinion one way or the other, or be prepared to reroll the character if you later decide that you made the wrong choice.

Bioware are all about one-time choices - most or all of their games have the same "make your choice and live with the consequences" mechanic in them.

This is essentially asking to be able to change your class. Thats a no.

Ten levels dont take long at all and you are given every single warning that your choice is final. Do your research and stop playing the character if you feel like it doesnt suit you.

The only change I could invision is making the advanced class selection at level one. It wouldnt change anything but it might instill a bit more of a finality to it all.

First, off thank you for making actual arguments.

No.

 

Allowing advanced class switching encourages Flavor-Of-The-Month classes, class stacking and abuse of raid positions. It allows a raid leader with a Powertech Tank, OP Healer and DPS Sorcerer to flip them into Assassin Tank, BH Healer and Sniper without losing the levels and gear they had previously invested.

Flavor-Of-The-Month classes are a design flaw that invariably occur and will occur in this game regardless. I'd say that Flavor-Of-The-Month rollers actually provide a service by helping the developers identify game imbalances earlier.

Now, as for class stacking and abuse of raid positions? What your describing is a good thing. But you finish your thought in the next paragraph, so I'll hold off.

This denies new players an opportunity to get into raids (why recruit that Sniper I need and rotate a bench when I can have people respec?), it devalues the uniqueness of each class, it downplays the importance of spec mastery (ideal comp trumps the difference between "excellent" and "absolute best" execution - no, don't compare "bad" to "good" that gap doesn't actually exist in competitive raiding) and it makes investing in alts worthless.

So you think it's desirable that a guild recruit a bench warmer for a single fight, a player that sits around all raid night waiting for ONE fight to pop up? How is that a good thing to you when that same guild can recruit an operative with a sniper off spec and use him the entire evening?

Of course, for all your talk of end game you're showing a dramatic lack of understanding about how end game raiding works. In a progression guild they're not going to grab a "new player" to rotate on a bench. They're going to have one of their existing players to roll an alt. Then they don't need to recruit a guy to just sit on the bench all night, they're going to drag the raiding night to a halt, have an existing player log out of his Operative, log on with his Sniper, do one fight, then log out and back in with his Operative. There is no "new player" benefit here.

"But I don't want to put in the work to level an alt! I think my Assassin should be a Sorcerer on a whim!".

 

Tough.

 

That barrier NEEDS to exist, it preserves the end game. After all, why stop at AC? Why can't I just push a button and change my class into another class? "But that's not what I'm arguing..." yes, it absolutely is, you're just using the semantics of "advanced class" to cover up what you're really asking for: a shortcut to be whatever classes you want.

Ah, and my respect for you dwindles and disappears. Look up "slippery slope fallacy" then look up "strawman fallacy" then realize you tried to justify a strawman fallacy with a slippery slope fallacy. Now understand why I'm laughing at you.

Rift tried that, it was, and still is, a disaster in PVP, and they have basically been doing everything in the power to move *away from that idea* in recent design. It doesn't work, it leads to problems, and it causes class / spec imbalances to become the norm for raiding. Currently there is a barrier that puts a huge time block on class / spec stacking beyond the ultra-high-end (where it belongs) - with such a change, it becomes the norm for all raiders and PVPers - not a good thing.

Class/spec imbalances should be fixed by the developers, not used as an excuse to limit play. You're done here, go away.

This is essentially asking to be able to change your class. Thats a no.

As has been explained a few times already, this is asking to change your advanced class. I understand there's a myth percolating that the advanced class is somehow a class, but the facts just don't hold that up.

For background, the following quote was posted on another thread as a continuation of an argument occurring here. So I'm posting my response here to keep things neat.

As I've said in the other topic already I get the feeling the OP wants to be able to have 1 character who can do it all. A Jack of all trades and a master of all. One of his posts there basically proves it.

Do everything? No, do more, yes. You make it sound like I want my character to do everything all at the same time, and advanced class switching would do nothing of the sort.

Now the OP starts a whole new topic again about the same thing. He just feels because he doesn't want to level another character the whole game should be redesigned to cater his needs.

Actually, what I did there was to ask for a creative analysis of what players would consider to be the downsides to advanced class switching and how those players would ask that it be removed if they actually had to make a convincing argument. You missed the point totally.

Subrosian made an excellent post here describing in detail why he believes that would lead SW TOR to disaster. And I can only agree with that.

Why do you agree with that? Even when you're quoting someone else you can't manage to form a complete thought, this is a problem.

I've played Rift for awhile. And the ability to switch between 4 or 5 specs was too much. There you could have one character which basically could do it all.

I'm sorry that Rifts was too complicated for you, it's fortunate that this game has already been tailored to meet your needs.

I won't mind it at all if SW TOR get's dual spec like WoW has.

I'm not going to use that, I'm perfectly fine leveling as a healer. To be honest with the companion system in this game it's far from slow. And since I only play PVE I don't really need dual spec. Other people who PVE and PVP. Or are a Guardian/Juggernaut for example who tank in raids, but prefer a DPS build for solo. For them dual spec would be lovely.

Yes, I to agree with dual spec, but that's not really the topic.

But only a dual spec in the Advanced Class which you choose at level 10. Not that the above mentioned Juggernaut wakes up one morning and says I want to be a healer today.

You want to be a healer? Fine, but then you need to have a character who can do that.

Actually, Juggernauts are Warriors and, with advanced class switching, their alternative would be Marauders, another AC that can't heal. You want your example to be an assassin, the guy who already uses finesse and the force to shoot lightning bolts and stealth, waking up one day and deciding he wants to use the force to heal and shoot lightning bolts instead.

One does not have to level 10 characters to cap to be able to do it all. Just 2. For example Juggernaut (or Republic counterpart) who can be a tank or DPS. And a Sorcerer who can be a healer or DPS. That goes up to 4 of course if you wish to play both sides.

Yes, you can do it with 2, but that's only half the problem. DPS classes are vastly different, tanking classes are vastly different, and as I see you've discovered below, healing classes are vastly different. Some of these classes will appeal to certain players more than other classes. Making a connection with your character is THE reason to keep playing this game, any of the internet psychologists that have already posted on this board will tell you that. Having double the number of play options available will allow you to find the character and spec that you love twice as fast.

On a personal note. 3 out of my 5 characters in this game are healer spec. Both my Imperial ones are healer spec. I love healing and I love testing out the different playstyles of the classes. Do I want to have the healing abilities of my Sorceress and Bounty Hunter combined into 1 character? No. I like the difference between them. And I don't mind that I have to level them up seperately at all.

I'm starting to see why Rifts was too much for you. I'm not sure why you're talking about sorceresses and bounty hunters as bringing the two healing styles into some degree of uniformity is an entirely different discussion.

I'd just like to be able to start at level 10 instead of suffering through 3 hours of the same quests to have a character with each advanced class... "You can choose different answers!!" really isn't a good argument for having to do the same quests over and over and over again when you make a new character of the same class as another one you have -- sorry to burst your bubble, but your effect on the world and the characters around you is NOT that big outside of the main story...

/shrug/

Then again, it's just 2-3 hours, if I'm ever so bored as to make a Gunslinger (I have a Scoundrel) or a Sentinel (I also have a Guardian), I'll probably just do it...

Would have been nicer if Taris/Nar Shadaa and Tatooine/Alderran somehow actually were interchangable with level range, too... It would help with the sake of "variety" if you could go to Nar Shadaa first instead of always having to go Taris -> Nar Shadaa -> Tatooine -> Alderran.

Especially since they paint it like you have a choice when you really don't.

As has been explained a few times already, this is asking to change your advanced class. I understand there's a myth percolating that the advanced class is somehow a class, but the facts just don't hold that up.

You're going to have to support that with something a bit more than your opinion. The FACT is there is a tremendous difference between ACs of the same core class.

By all means, explain yourself. I'm curious where this delusion stems from.

Lots of people here compare changing your advanced class to WoW in a pretty unfair way. Suggesting this request is the same as moving from Warlock to Mage is absurd.

These characters share a common tree for one. It has no bearing on the storyline at all what class you have. There's literally nothing that it would affect. You'd have to change out some gear and learn a moderately different play style but, as is the case for me, you'd actually still be playing that character.

The Jedi Sentinel was a struggle to 30 and I just thought that was the challenge level. Until I played a Sith Juggernaut and found myself more comfortable and confident that I wouldn't be sucking down med packs like skittles. If I could change my sentinel to a guardian, I would right now. I don't want to go through another 30 levels of the same stuff I just experienced.

This could be a great money sink for players--make it cost 100,000 credits or whatever. I can see the benefit to them of not doing it because then the truly desperate will make another character to get through the levels. I'd rather just spend the cash and switch over.

I would also think that if pure DPS classes weren't so brutally gimped solo, people wouldn't care as much about the ability to swap their advanced class. I was under the incorrect notion that like most MMOs, DPS was a better choice for soloing. Tanks usually take forever to kill anything.

When I sent them the feedback email they asked for, this request figured prominently in my message.

The basic problem all stems from there being 8 advanced classes per faction, but only 4 starting classes per faction. No matter what AC you end up choosing, for the first 10 levels you will be playing a homogenized fluff class. A level 50 Sorc is way different from a level 50 Sin, but there is no difference between a level 1-9 Sorc and Sin.

In most mmo's you can get a good gist of the class within the first few hours of playing it. In swtor, you have to play a few hours before you can even pick your class. So in the time it would take me to test out any number of classes in swtor to see how I like them, I could test out twice as many in another mmo.

In WoW you can't change from a warrior to a rogue, or from a warlock to a mage; true. But you don't have to wait until level 10 to start to get an idea of how your class is going to play. If you get to level 15 and decide you don't like warrior and you want to try rogue, you don't have to replay the first 10 levels of warrior again before you get any rogue abilities; you start as a level 1 rogue. Thus you can't consider advanced classes true classes ... they're just bioware's way of cutting the number of storylines and voice acting required in half.

Another reason I hate the voice overs ... but that's another argument entirely.

In WoW you can't change from a warrior to a rogue, or from a warlock to a mage; true. But you don't have to wait until level 10 to start to get an idea of how your class is going to play. If you get to level 15 and decide you don't like warrior and you want to try rogue, you don't have to replay the first 10 levels of warrior again before you get any rogue abilities; you start as a level 1 rogue. Thus you can't consider advanced classes true classes ... they're just bioware's way of cutting the number of storylines and voice acting required in half.

Your statements don't support your conclusion.

As has been explained a few times already, this is asking to change your advanced class. I understand there's a myth percolating that the advanced class is somehow a class, but the facts just don't hold that up.

Well then it's one 'myth' that is true. Bioware has stated no class changing this thread can be closed now. Thank you everyone you may now do something better with your lives.

Would have been nicer if Taris/Nar Shadaa and Tatooine/Alderran somehow actually were interchangable with level range, too... It would help with the sake of "variety" if you could go to Nar Shadaa first instead of always having to go Taris -> Nar Shadaa -> Tatooine -> Alderran.

 

Especially since they paint it like you have a choice when you really don't.

You can do this...

I went to Alderaan before Tatooine myself. It was a little more challenging of course, but I got a companion sooner because of it. Afterwards I blew through Tatooine like it was a joke and was done with it inside of 30 minutes.