Juggernaut Ability, Tactical Item, and Set Bonus Feedback

ctprock · July 6, 2019

No point in getting mad over grit teeth. Mercs and Commandos will probably get something 10 times as busted that makes grit teeth look like child's play. We all know Charles Boyd won't let his precious commandos and mercs go without something game breaking.

omaan · July 6, 2019

Hey folks,

[*]Grit Teeth - Taking damage while Endure Pain is active reduces the cooldown of Enraged Defense by 10 seconds per hit. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

Let us know your thoughts! Here are the types of feedback we are looking for. XX seems too strong or too weak. XX Set Bonus combined with XX Tactical seems too strong or too weak. I wish there was a Set Bonus or Tactical that had a specific effect or modified a specific ability not listed. Be as specific as possible in your feedback.

-eric

for solo ranked Being able for a jugg who can guard others, spam taunts to save their team mates to regen his hp two times during the fight is way TOO OVERPOWERED. In this case you need either to nerf other juggs defenses, take all taunts and guard from dps jugg or remove this new tactic item (grit teeth) at all. How do you espect enemy team to kill enemy dps when jugg guards him, spam taunts and do other things to save his team mate but if you go jugg he will just heal himself to full hp?? Way too powerful to be able to heal two times to full hp for a class with taunts and guard.

-_Richtus_- · July 7, 2019

Hey folks,

Retaliator - Taking damage during Endure Pain grants Retaliator stacks, increasing the damage of your next Retaliation by 10% per stack.
Strengthening Scream - Threatening Scream increases your damage reduction by 5% for each enemy you hit. This effect lasts 10 seconds.

If Endure Pain would be a really useful dcd, like its CD suggests and not the last resort + medipack stuff it is now (if solo) or it would direct the damage I take to that time limited health and not to my actual health maybe that bonus could be really useful....

Otherwise, it is only useful if you can proc retaliation willingly (immortal or rage) and even then only if the bonus has a really high stack limit and no internal proc cd for a last resort chunk of dmg...

Well Strengthening Scream with 5% dmg reduction can be good in a 8vs8 but in a 1vs1 ?... why not give it a bigger number but cap it after x%?

Keep Away - Activating Saber Ward finishes the cooldown of Force Push.
Grit Teeth - Taking damage while Endure Pain is active reduces the cooldown of Enraged Defense by 10 seconds per hit. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

Keep away is a really weak tactical. Could be baseline in saber ward. What is build defining with this?

Grit Teeth sounds good, it adds another function to the juggernaut where you just can stop hitting him or cc him like with ED or EP and you will be fine, and he has no benefit. And after EP he is dead anyways (if solo)- but in a grp fight it can be really strong. In regs or against dots or for tanks it is fantastic. If I see what op stuff mara gets I think...that stuff is ok.

Vengeance

Bloody Vengeance - When a bleed tick critically hits, it reduces the cooldown of Vengeful Slam by one second.
Payback - Retaliation finishes the cooldown of Hew and allows it to be usable on a target with any health level, it also causes your next Hew to enable Retaliation. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds.
Crimson Slash - Vicious Slash refreshes the duration of Force Scream and Impale's bleeds on the target.

So I can choose between a vengeful slam with almost zero cd for dot spread and constant aoe from hell or I can refresh two of my dots which deal almost no dmg and have a ~ 2/3 uptime already? That's not a choice.... The later seems weak.

So it just ends with vengeful slam spam all fight long .

Crimson Slash: If it functions so that my hew resets retaliation and retaliation resets my hew than it's ok. If I have to wait till my retaliation procs to use this loop than not. But furthermore why concentrate all things in vengeance on hew? We already can proc hew after jump and with dots and ravage...we don't need another proc...cause worst case they interfere with each other.

Rage
The current plan is that these will be mirrored to the Fury options we listed for the Marauder. The team is exploring adding some unique ones for Rage as well.

So that implies the gap between rage jugg and fury mara stays almost the same....? But mara can now use the new set to get a lesser version from our vengeance defining cc immunity jump with fury! - to their already 6sec build-in cc immunity with fury that juggs don't have ...?!

I was really exited for "build defining" things. But I mostly see some highly unbalanced features or gimmicks and most of them don´t give a real tough choice between them cause some of them are so underwhelming and some are really strong.

And then there is the gap between classes:

I mean just compare sorc things with mara...

They need to open the pts with all this unlocked to test them together and against other classes.

Finally Juggs get their well deserved buffs... Can't wait 6.0 for PVP. Strong Mara, strong Jugg. Can't even ask for more.

Bioware please be careful with the self heals... they can make a class very OP in PVP.

PS: A mara will never beat a DPS Jugg 1v1 in 6.0... Impossible. No dps buffs can counter heals to full in PVP.

Why? They have a tactical which gives them a reset on force camouflage. So they just stealth out and you get zero heal procs from ED and EP also never procs. And if that isn't enough their sprint and intimidating roar are enough to counter all your "pls hit me" dcds. Furthermore, with the new warrior set they can have cc immunity for almost the whole fight (in fury). So 1vs1 vs. a non-dot mara it's not really that OP. Sure in regs and for tanks its really fantastic.

But if you look at the mara things- juggs need something really strong either.

I agree the sorc tacticals are on a much lower level than mara and jugg, that's for sure. Let´s wait till we see the game breaking merc stuff .

Aries_cz · July 7, 2019

Set Bonuses

Strengthening Scream - Threatening Scream increases your damage reduction by 5% for each enemy you hit. This effect lasts 10 seconds.

This looks pretty good

Tactical Items

Grit Teeth - Taking damage while Endure Pain is active reduces the cooldown of Enraged Defense by 10 seconds per hit. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

This looks overpowered as hell. basically, Endure Pain reset CD on Enraged Defense, and can potentially still be active when that happens. So that is basically two extra full health bars ever 60 seconds (first regular HP, hit ED, full, hit Endure (full at 130%), lose HP, hit another ED, full). Juggs can usually survive 60 seconds just fine, especially with something like the Threatening Scream set bonus.

However, I like the idea of it, but it needs some fine tuning, maybe make it occur only once per 6-10 seconds, instead of 2 (meaning it would not reset full CD on Enraged Defense)

Immortal

Crushing Defense - Crushing Blow generates Crushing Defense stacks for every enemy it hits, increasing your damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds.
Indomitable - Using Backhand while Invincible extends the duration of Invincible by 5 seconds.
Retaliating Defense - Retaliation consumes Aegis Assault's damage reduction and grants Retaliating Defense, increasing damage reduction by 5% for 20 seconds.

These look pretty good, although the Backhand one seems a bit like the proverbial redheaded step child.

Vengeance

Bloody Vengeance - When a bleed tick critically hits, it reduces the cooldown of Vengeful Slam by one second.
Payback - Retaliation finishes the cooldown of Hew and allows it to be usable on a target with any health level, it also causes your next Hew to enable Retaliation. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds.
Crimson Slash - Vicious Slash refreshes the duration of Force Scream and Impale's bleeds on the target.

Looks interesting.

RE: Bloody Vengenace, not sure how frequent bleed crits are, but seems like in a middle sized group group where you have spread your bleed, this would enable essentially endless Slam (which could probably be fun, but could cause some imbalance). Maybe add "can occur only every 2 seconds", or something to it?

Note, I do not really play much of a Jugg/Guardian (or Knight in general, not my favorite story/character), so these are just some observations from a casual player of this class.

Also, this really needs to be tested on PTS to crunch the numbers properly, any word on when that might happen? IIRC, the original target was during June?

Edited July 7, 2019 by Aries_cz

Delani · July 7, 2019

This looks pretty good

This looks overpowered as hell. basically, Endure Pain reset CD on Enraged Defense, and can potentially still be active when that happens. So that is basically two extra full health bars ever 60 seconds (first regular HP, hit ED, full, hit Endure (full at 130%), lose HP, hit another ED, full). Juggs can usually survive 60 seconds just fine, especially with something like the Threatening Scream set bonus.

However, I like the idea of it, but it needs some fine tuning, maybe make it occur only once per 6-10 seconds, instead of 2 (meaning it would not reset full CD on Enraged Defense)

These look pretty good, although the Backhand one seems a bit like the proverbial redheaded step child.

Looks interesting.
RE: Bloody Vengenace, not sure how frequent bleed crits are, but seems like in a middle sized group group where you have spread your bleed, this would enable essentially endless Slam (which could probably be fun, but could cause some imbalance). Maybe add "can occur only every 2 seconds", or something to it?

Note, I do not really play much of a Jugg/Guardian (or Knight in general, not my favorite story/character), so these are just some observations from a casual player of this class.

Also, this really needs to be tested on PTS to crunch the numbers properly, any word on when that might happen? IIRC, the original target was during June?

I dont think GRIT TEETH is OP at all. I do however think that it moves DPS juggs up the chart. DPS juggs is now very viable. But they should reconsider changing it for tanks.

JediMasterAlex · July 8, 2019

We dont know what other classes are going to offer tho. When we see other classes we may not beleive its fotm at all.

Have you seen the sorc tacticals? They are a joke compared to the mara's and jugg's.

DavidAtkinson · July 8, 2019

Not really sure what makes people think that classes should be balanced around solo ranked... solo ranked, a game mode that 10 % of the entire player base play.. ?

I play solo ranked too and PVP.. just saying.. I've always wondered about this. Still no answer.

Edited July 8, 2019 by DavidAtkinson

JediMasterAlex · July 8, 2019

Not really sure what makes people think that classes should be balanced around solo ranked... solo ranked, a game mode that 10 of the entire player base play.. ?

I play solo ranked too and PVP.. just saying.. I've always wondered about this. Still no answer.

Group ranked is no longer being played. Regs are a casual game mode. Solo ranked is all that's left. It's not really a complicated issue.

Ubercado · July 9, 2019

Just make sure that they aren't usable in PVP

Akushii · July 9, 2019

Everyone here is talking about Ranked PvP.....

Okay, lets talk Ranked PvP, this would actually be justifiable. Juggernauts are already the first ones to be targeted down in Solo Ranked. And lets not forget that Mercs have 3 defensive cooldowns that already heal them up, not to mention the actual healing abilities. So even if Juggs got their heal back to full twice, it's nothing compared to Mercs who can literally heal back to full 3-4 times currently.

Anyway, I'm more concerned about the PvE aspects. It's hard to say the effect these set bonuses/tacticals will have without seeing the changes that other build in passives that the class will have. You know... all those minor nodes in the 'skill tree' that very few look at. Without understanding how everything interacts with each other, it is hard to say if things will fit in. Vengeance juggernaut currently has one of the best set rotation that runs very smoothly, because everything is predictable. If we introduce RNG, like reducing cooldown of Vengeful slam, or having vicious slash extend time of two of our dots, it might not be stable. We actually have to see the gameplay in PTS to really understand if these bonuses/tacticals work. There is no point in reducing cooldown of Vengeful Slam if we need to delay it to put dots on enemies and such. Similarly if Vicious Slash extends the dot of Impale of force scream and impale, do we need to use those abilities after the first time we apply? Or does that take both Impale and Scream out of our rotation since we will be able to continuously extend the duration by using Vicious slash?

Personally I think Vengeance is in it's best iteration currently as far as rotation and skills goes. Because everything just seems to 'fit' perfectly and comes off cooldown at the right time with the proper resource management. We will have to see how these new tacticals affect the overall rotation and gameplay.

Delani · July 9, 2019

Not really sure what makes people think that classes should be balanced around solo ranked... solo ranked, a game mode that 10 % of the entire player base play.. ?

I play solo ranked too and PVP.. just saying.. I've always wondered about this. Still no answer.

because solo ranked players the elitist "experts" of the PVP community and tbh most solo ranked players if grouped with one another, could clear all NiM Ops in the game. Solo ranked players know how to sue their dcds, DPS and guardswap. They know better than anyone what is overpowered versus underpowered.

bladech · July 11, 2019

Hey folks,

Let's talk about what Spoils of War has in store for the Juggernaut! Below you will find the Juggernaut's new ability, the set bonuses that are planned for them, and a list of their new Tactical items. You may see bonuses which refer to charges. We are introducing new tech in Onslaught which will allow abilities to have multiple charges, meaning you can use them more than once (per charge) and the cooldown will simply add a charge up to the maximum.

You will note that compared to the Sorcer
[*]Grit Teeth - Taking damage while Endure Pain is active reduces the cooldown of Enraged Defense by 10 seconds per hit. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

-eric

And who do you expect us to go for in enemy team with juggernaut in solo ranked? if we go jugg he will outheal himself to full hp thanks to TWO enraged defenses due to grit teeth. If we go for other enemy in jugg's team he will guard him and spam taunts and still outheal himself same as in first variant. You literally making one class all-mighty because with such defense buff this class will be able to: 1.survive good and cause much damage to enemy team.2. defend his team mates by guarding them and spamming taunts.

Thats not funny really. I see no way how to outplay or deal with this double heal to full hp

Edited July 11, 2019 by bladech

Thaladan · July 12, 2019

i am really disappointed now we have a point of view of the "tactical item"

As said before, i was thinking tactical item would have been an option to change a bit your way to play : a little advantage of mobilty, or an orientation to an ability to be aoe or to put a dot or more damage etc etc.

but it's no more than an extra utilty to chose ... and like utilities, will be chosed the OP ones ...

and juggs will be Op with some tactical item you propose here.

It seems you have no clue of what you propose, like utilities : no balance, no logic ...

please reconsider your tactical items, to be as you mentionned first :

- "can help you play the way you want"

- "plenty of ways to modify your character to fit your personal playstyle!"

Edited July 12, 2019 by Thaladan

JediMasterAlex · July 13, 2019

And who do you expect us to go for in enemy team with juggernaut in solo ranked? if we go jugg he will outheal himself to full hp thanks to TWO enraged defenses due to grit teeth. If we go for other enemy in jugg's team he will guard him and spam taunts and still outheal himself same as in first variant. You literally making one class all-mighty because with such defense buff this class will be able to: 1.survive good and cause much damage to enemy team.2. defend his team mates by guarding them and spamming taunts.

Thats not funny really. I see no way how to outplay or deal with this double heal to full hp

It does seem a bit overboard. Juggs needed some love in pvp for sure, but this just seems like too much, especially when you compare to what dps sorcs got, which will barely help them in ranked.

LeyDrewid · July 15, 2019

This is mostly about the changes from an Immortal discipline perspective.

It's long, I'm sorry. Apparently I can't do short posts on the forums. I've hidden a lot of my post behind spoiler tags to keep it's appearance smaller and allow people to skip sections they don't care about. If you intend to read it all, sorry for the extra work.

Me and Acknowledgements

Me

I am a tank main who prefers Immortal / Defense. My primarily focus is end game raiding. I am 30/31 and 5 of 6. I do regs pvp from time to time but don’t do ranked. While most MM Ops tanks main Sins I choose to main a Jugg / Guardian.

Half the information

So it’s worth pointing out that until we see the new passive skill at 72 and the active skill at 74 and any possible changes to utilities, it’s hard to completely evaluate these bonuses. For example, (I doubt this is it but it could happen) if my lvl 72 passive were to reduce the CD of Backhand / Hilt Bash to 5 sec my opinion of the tactical item “Indomitable” changes significantly.

The problem with Tanks and their role

I imagine from a development perspective, tanks are the worst class in the game. Give us too much damage or mitigation and we infringe on the DPS and Heal roles. It’s why we tend to get most of the mechanics. It also must be very hard to gauge what kind of things players who choose to tank (masochists) would enjoy. You also tend to get a wide range of mentalities and opinions. I tend to approach everything from a very defensive position. Good luck trying to keep even a few of us happy.

My Assumptions of the Developer’s Goals

Viability

All classes should be capable of all content in their perspective roles. At most a DPS would need to know all DPS disciplines of their class. If it is the Dev’s intention that some disciplines are not intended for some content, it would save us all a lot of heartache to announce that.

Different but Equal

All classes, with respect to role, should have similar capabilities while still feeling unique. There will always be some amount of class x does better in situation y than the other classes in the same role. There will also be some things that are just the same like taunt for tanks.

A note on Gearing as a Tank

Gearing on a tank sucks. IMO, a good PvE tank needs gear for 3 different situations. Mitigation focus, damage focus and DPS Spec. It’s not the end of the world if you don’t have all 3 but to truly be a boon to your group, you should be striving to attain all 3.

To make matters worse, regardless of whether you choose lethal or warding mods, it is generally believed to be better to use B mods over unlettered.

Right now to achieve those 3 sets take 4 full token armor sets for the armorings and enhancements and a small fortune or insane command crate luck for the mods. It would go a long way if you had a vendor that would take any mod or enhancement and exchange it for any other mod or enhancement of the same tier.

I mentioned DPS Spec as one of the 3 sets a good tank should have. I hope the dev’s keep this in mind. Whatever amount of gear grind the dps are expected to have to do is essentially added onto tanks.

Furious Focus

New Ability – Furious Focus

(this is a mirror of the new Marauder ability)

Furious Focus has 4 ability charges and recharges every 30 seconds. Activating Furious Focus consumes all charges causing your next attacks to do 25% additional damage. Ex: If you consume 3 charges, your next 3 attacks do 25% increased damage.

I’m excited to see what this could do for me in tank spec because Recklessness (Sin) and Explosive Fuel (PT) have augments that add mitigation properties to their respective tanks specs.

SIDE NOTE: Another micro buff for Mara’s? Those poor carnage players, their fingers are already bleeding.

Set bonuses, commenting on generic warrior set bonuses here because lazy.

This is what was posted about set bonuses:

… Our goal for set bonuses is to introduce new bonuses, and potentially with even new sizes so you can mix and match. ...

Set Bonuses: These should be focused on the broader “kind of tools” your class uses, but not specific abilities. Some examples are sets that center around bleeds, force damage, lightning, shields, cover, and so on.

1) Are you saying that we can plug and play these bonuses? Currently they come bundled. If you’re saying there will be a pool of bonuses and we can pick which ones we want to use that could be really cool.

2) Why do most of the set bonuses proposed seem to not follow this? Most of them seem to be specific skill x has additional effect.

Ubercharge - Force Charge gets two ability charges. In addition, you cannot be stunned or rooted for 3 seconds after using Force Charge.

Pointless for Juggs, dunno about Mara’s

The natural CD of charge is 15s with no alacrity. We can Force Push to instantly reset the CD. We currently have a utility that can reduce the CD by about half. Rage has a 2nd leap. How often do you think we need to leap? Maybe PvP could use some additional leap.

The 2nd part of that bonus isn’t much better. A utility covers the root and Vengeance is already immune to stun. So maybe Immortal and Rage players would find use but probably not.

Warrior leap could use some love. 10m min range is too much. 0m would be great, 4m seems fair. This should not be a set bonus though. Changing the min range is more about rebalancing.

If you want a set bonus, how about leap roots the target for Xs.

Sap - After Force Choke finishes, it slows its target and every target nearby it for 6 seconds.

Possibly worthless, at best pointless for tanks, mediocre for DPS Juggs

If the choke fills a resolve bar, is the target still slowed? If resolve stops the slow then this skill is worthless.

Otherwise, how big is the range and how much does it slow? Maybe there is some value that makes this a little exciting for PvP. You have essentially added chilling scream at the end of Force choke. As a tank, I’ll spend the GCD to cast chill after. A DPS might want to save that GCD to get another higher damaging skill.

Positioning - After executing Mad Dash, you gain 20% damage reduction for 6 seconds.

Good if you’re bad, otherwise okay

Dash has 2 uses. Traverse the battlefield and negate a hit. If you’re bad at timing Dash to avoid a big hit, this bonus will offer some forgiveness. It’s hard to get too excited for 20% DR tied to an on GCD movement skill.

Dash is tricky as a tank. Fights with a mobile boss, it’s generally better for tanks to move the boss only as much as is required. Fights with terrane limitations / movement restrictions, you might not be able to arbitrarily move.

Most boss fights, most DPS are not going to spend 1 GCD to dash out of range and a 2nd GCD to leap back in just for DR.

Blinding Fear - Enemies affected by Intimidating Roar have greatly reduced accuracy for 6 seconds after Intimidating Roar wears off.

Probably Pointless in PvE, Possibly very good in PvP

It very specifically says “affected by” which suggests boss immunity will keep this from being relevant in PvE.

This could bring Roar on par with Carbonize in PvP though. Right now it takes a highly coordinated group to make use of Roar. If the accuracy debuff is high enough to make enemies significantly less effective then it would be almost like they were stunned.

How is accuracy being affected? Is it just M/R accuracy or all? And how much is greatly?

Critical Focus - Critically hitting has a 20% change to build a Furious Focus charge. Can only occur once every 10 seconds.

Possibly Good but remove the 20% chance

More aggressive tanks will use this one for sure. Depending on what, if any, mitigation is added to Furious Focus I would consider using this.

You have a random chance at a random chance with a time gate, seems unnecessarily complicated (coming from me, I know ironic). How about remove the 20% and just adjust the time gate. Or at least remove the time gate, so the guys with a unicorn and leprechaun making rainbows on their shoulder can enjoy it.

For consideration: (Please double check me, math is hard)

Current crit rate for Immortal / Defense in “tank gear” is typically around 30-35%, Also Ravage has increased crit rate.

(Rounding for best case, assumes 0 alacrity)

30% Crit Rate:

6% proc chance

Roughly 1 in 16 hits

You should gain a charge from crit every 24s

If crit chance is 30% then 30 in 100 hits crit.

20% of those crits is 6.

6 hits in 100 will proc.

6/100 is about 1 / 16.6 so on average 1 in 16 hits will proc

If alacrity is 0 then GCD is 1.5s, so 16 attacks will take 24s.

40% Crit Rate:

8% proc chance

Roughly 1 in 12 hits

Gain a charge from crit every 18s

60% Crit Rate:

12% proc chance

Roughly 1 in 8 hits

Gain a charge from crit every 12s

Vicious Thirst - Vicious Slash and Massacre add Vicious Thirst stacks to their targets, stacking up to 3 times. Killing an enemy with Vicious Thirst stacks increases your damage by 10% per stack for 10 seconds.

Mediocre

How long do Vicious Thirst stacks last?

This is pointless for bosses without adds. Not sure this is all that exciting for Bosses with adds either. Adds don’t typically survive long in boss fights. Spending 3 GCDs to max the buff probably won’t happen. I look forward to a Warrior dps calling to slow dps on an add so they can max the buff.

This is probably aimed more for dps. Not a big deal that it doesn’t rate high from me for tanks. Aggressive PvP tanks will probably love this one.

Retaliator - Taking damage during Endure Pain grants Retaliator stacks, increasing the damage of your next Retaliation by 10% per stack.

Okay

How long do Retaliator stacks last?

In PvE, I could see this replacing my 4 piece set bonus when I am in a DPS Tank situation. (I need to be in tank spec but I have a higher focus on damage output) But if I had access to the current Jugg DPS 4 piece set bonus, that would probably be a greater dps gain.

In PvP, I’d rather have the current 4 piece. I play more defensively and taunts are some of the greatest tools available for keeping my team alive.

Strengthening Scream - Threatening Scream increases your damage reduction by 5% for each enemy you hit. This effect lasts 10 seconds.

Underwhelming

Maybe you didn’t intend for this for tanks. Let’s say you did. This is essentially giving us 5% DR on most fights. It comes tied to AoE taunt, which has a host of other problems.

What about trash pulls? Worrying/gearing for trash pulls is like a 5 year old planning their retirement.

What about PvP? If it mitigates damage taken from guard, it might be useful. Generally though, if you make the tank invincible, all you’ve done is dictate who dies last.

None of those set bonuses seem exciting enough to replace the current 6 piece in PvE. I hope the current 4 piece is converted into a tank tree passive, and then maybe some of these could become 4 piece options. None of them are very exciting but maybe that’s the point of a 4 piece bonus.

Tacticals

This was stated as the goal for tacticals:

… Tactical Items are a new item type that is meant to be build defining and most likely to directly impact how an ability works.

Tactical Items: These should modify one of your Advanced Class/Discipline abilities to work differently. The goal is for you to use the ability in situations you previously wouldn’t (more often, against specific targets, etc)

Some of these feel very short of build defining, or the build they are defining is very … unique.

Higher Focus - Enrage builds one Furious Focus charge.

Could be Good

As stated on Furious Focus, depending on what mitigations properties are added to this for tanks this could be good.

Keep Away - Activating Saber Ward finishes the cooldown of Force Push.

Pointless

Introducing the Shover. An exciting new build which focuses on a skill most significant enemies are immune to.

You’ve given us the ability to reset the CD on a skill with a 45s CD (utility dependant) using one of the classes best defensive skills that has a 150s CD.

Not only that but why would I shove something away from me after I use a DCD? This thing only sees use in Hutt Ball and even then it’s pretty niche and is probably passed over for something else.

Grit Teeth - Taking damage while Endure Pain is active reduces the cooldown of Enraged Defense by 10 seconds per hit. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

Inappropriate bordering on Insulting

In my opinion, Immortal / Defense has 3 fundamental issues. Self heals, pull and PvP objective guarding. I am glad you recognize one of the fundamental flaws in the class, and the minor annoyance that Endure Pain is virtually worthless. Using tacticals items to fix a fundamental flaw seems wrong to me. Tactical items are supposed to allow the player choices. There is no choice here. This tactical would be mandatory.

The saddest thing is, this isn’t even that great, despite the crying from non jugg PvPers are doing. In PvP it’s good, but it’s far from game breaking. Operative (any discipline), Assassin (any discipline), Merc (any discipline) and Sorc healers will still be far more survivable than Jugg tanks.

Interceding Defense - Reduces the cooldown of Intercede by 5 seconds. Intercede grants 2.5% damage reduction per ally around you after Interceding.

Bad for PvE, Good for PvP

In PvE a big part of our role is to point the hard hitting AoE attacks away from the group. Seems counterproductive to be leaping to the group to so I take less damage as it will cause them to take more. I do like the idea of interceding during Brontes burn though. Would be hilarious.

As a tank that already takes the utility for intercede, I might use this in PvP.

Immortal

Crushing Defense - Crushing Blow generates Crushing Defense stacks for every enemy it hits, increasing your damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds.

???

How much DR are you getting? We can assume it is less than 5% since Retaliating Defense gives 5. It is interesting that this buff lasts for 10s and CB has a 12s CD. This is very similar to Strengthening Scream. Paired together it might make clearing trash mobs easier but for bosses it’s pretty mediocre.

Indomitable - Using Backhand while Invincible extends the duration of Invincible by 5 seconds.

Weak, Maybe change to grants invincible for 5s and change Backhand to Endure Pain

Part of the problem with this is Backhand. Backhand is a jack of many trades master of none. I think it’s the 2nd worst advanced class tank skill in the game, don’t worry Translocate you’ll always be number 1. This tactical aims to add yet another function to an already overloaded skill.

Assuming we still have access to our current 6 piece, 15s is generally enough to get through a challenging damage taken section. What would be better is having access to invincible more frequently. Either through CD reduction or a 2nd means of activation, similar to stealth out granting shroud.

Retaliating Defense - Retaliation consumes Aegis Assault's damage reduction and grants Retaliating Defense, increasing damage reduction by 5% for 20 seconds.

Weak, A generic bonus with a convoluted activation

Assuming we keep the 2 piece set bonus and that this bonus stacks with the DR provided by Aegis Assault, we’ve gained 5% DR.

What did it cost? It has a minimum 10s to establish. In order to maintain the full DR we can no longer use Retaliate on CD. Retaliate must be followed by Aegis Assault. Not the end of the world but it does beg the question why?

This does not feel build defining.

Suggestions

A tactical suggestion in line with some listed here:

Saber Deflect - Saber Reflect now grants 200% Ranged, Force and Tech Defense.

This essentially turns saber reflect into something akin to shroud. Saber Reflect doesn’t cleans debuffs, have a CD reduction or second activation like shroud. It does help with ranged attacks though.

Let's be honest, saber reflect has been neutered pretty hard. It doesn’t even follow its own description all of the time. This would allow “you to use the ability in situations you previously wouldn’t”. This even comes at the cost of no longer doing damage back to the attacker.

Other things that I would be excited for Tanks in general(Possibly Set Bonuses, Tacticals or just general game change):

Trauma from Vicious Slash now stacks up to 3 times.

Counter healer play. Trama only lasts 6s so would require frequent application. Aid in damage focus.

Taking damage from guard reduces CD on Taunt and AoE Taunt.

Counter damage focus. No internal CD means if enemy team is focusing targets you can more readily counter. Rewards good guard swapping.

Reduce damage from guard.

Being an extension of someone else's HP bar isn’t fun game play. Especially if they don’t know how to use a defensive or are reckless. Also makes tanks better at guarding than DPS.

Threat or taunt removes resolve

Gives tanks greater ability to control the battlefield. Not sure if this should be a set bonus or tactical item thing. It would also mean taunt from a tank is better than a dps.

Fundamental Flaws with Immortal that should not be fixed with set bonuses or tacticals

I mentioned this in Grit Teeth but I’ll say it again here. If you fix a fundamental flaw in a class with gear then you make that gear mandatory. The intention with the new gearing system is allow players to choose.

Again, I was 26/26 5/5 in 248 before NiM Gods came out and am currently progressing on Izax P5. I understand that these flaws are not new and Juggs have been surviving so far, we’ve been working with a handicap.

Self Heals

This is the worst and both DPS and Tank spec suffer from this. Jugg DPS are glass cannons. Assassin tanks have so much self heal potential with medpac on CD it’s insane.

When gaining HP, all Juggs specs have 3 options. Two are very conditional and one is a lie.

Payback - extremely conditional

A utility that augments our CC break to also heal for 10% of max health. If you don’t get CC’ed you don’t get healed.

Enraged Defense - conditional

First, you must be below 70%. You can’t preemptively activate this skill when you know a bit hit is coming. This heal requires you to be hit to heal. In PvE, this often means it’s more of a DR than a heal. It also means that getting healed is out of your control. If you aren’t taking damage, you aren’t getting healed.

Endure Pain - a lie

It’s nickname is literally fake health. It is the worst DCD in the game and is just as likely to get you killed as safe your life. Veng Juggs at least get some DR while it’s active but the other two specs get nothing. Other than the Veng DR, when the duration of Endure Pain is over, it is as if you never used it. The only exception to this is if you took more damage than your current HP, EP will leave you at 1 HP.

Enraged Defense needs some help. Currently, the utility Through Passion is basically mandatory. I would permanently change the CD for ED to 90s. I would then either change the duration of the stacks or let unused stacks reduce the CD on ED. Then change Through Passion to automatically consume ED stacks every 1 or 2 second to guarantee some amount of healing. This would expand Enraged Defense usefulness in PvE.

Juggs would still need something else. Maybe a Grit Teeth like thing maybe not.

Pull

I fully believe somethings are just fundamental. In SWTOR everyone one should have an interrupt, a stun, a CC break, and a push. Tanks have the added requirement of a taunt, an AoE taunt and a pull. It’s just part of our job description. Part of controlling the battlefield is where things are. Interestingly enough, Bioware Devs agree with me. Every companion that I’ve come across has a pull. In fact they tend to have a multiple target pull.

Pull was one of the more common suggestions on request for ideas thread. The most common variant was adding pull to force choke.

Please DO NOT add pull to force choke. This is a terrible idea. Force choke is the most functionally overloaded skill in the game that I know off. Force choke is used for Threat, Damage, Stun and Resource generation. Yes Threat and Damage are different, Ravage does more damage than Backhand but you prioritize Backhand in the opener because you are trying to establish threat. Grapple and Force Pull also generate less resolve than a stun typically does.

I am going to further restrict fixing the Pull issue. It had better not come in the form of a discipline skill. But assassin’s got their pull from a discipline skill. Sure but they got all 4 of their DCD’s from the assassin advanced class or discipline passives. They got Wither, Deprecating Volts and Dark Ward from the discipline.

Juggs got two mediocre discipline skills already. Aegis Assault and Backhand. Aegis Assault was a lazy developer rebalance. We had Sundering Assault, which was deemed unbalanced as it made us the only tank spec that could sunder armor. Rather than have the skills effects based on discipline, like oh say Discharge, they gave us Aegis Assault. Backhand is the 2nd most functionally overloaded skill, (Damage, Threat and Stun) and manages to be mediocre on all fronts.

I’m afraid the only acceptable solution is a discipline passive that augments a skill we already have or to give all juggs pull. Luckily for you I have an elegant solution.

Force Push. Targets within 10m (maybe shortened to 5 or 8) are pushed away. Targets outside that range but within 30m are pulled towards. Because it’s pulling double duty now as a push and pull Force Push becomes a charge based skill with 2 or 3 charges and shorten the CD to 30 or 45s. Add the augment in the discipline passive Force Grip, fits thematically.

Functionally moving things around the battle is the same and I don’t have to find another keybind for it. Win Win.

PvP Objective Defense

As Tanks go, Juggs are the worst objective guards. The goal when defending is to stall the attackers long enough for help to arrive. Anything above that is just a nice bonus. IMO, the biggest threat when guarding an objective is the “Stealth Cap”. Generally it’s fast and offers the least amount of reaction time.

Sins can play stealther vs stealther games for awhile. PTs can use shoulder cannon while stunned and have a 30m attack with no CD.

I’ve developed a Jugg strat over the years that does okay. If someone has a better one please let me know, especially if it can handle multiple good stealthers.

Here is my strat:

Stand 30+m from the objective.

Anything closer and you might as well be standing on the point. Ops can roll twice, traveling a great distance very quickly. Sap is 8 secs and capping a point is typically 6.

Foolish stealthers will sap you, building your resolve, and run for the objective wasting some of the stun time traveling. You will naturally come out of the stun before they completely take an objective. You can then leap to them to interrupt. The good ones will stealth out and sap you again, filling your resolve bar, and go back to trying to capture the objective. You then CC break and interrupt. At that point, assuming you’ve called for help, you only need to defend the point for a little longer before it’s reasonable to assume help has arrived. Again, your goal is just to defend until help arrives. If you can kill the attacker(s) or at least cause them to get bored and run away then even better.

If you’re unlucky and the stealther is not a fool, then things get a lot more problematic. Smart stealthers will run past you to the objective and start capping. As a Jugg at 30m you can saber through with 30s CD. I would never suggest the utility that extends Force Scream’s range to 30m but even if you take that, the CD of FS is 12s. So you interrupt the cap at 3s (Don’t let travel time get you), the smart stealther immediately starts capping again. Now the real duel begins.

You have to close the gap. You can dash and try your luck with 10m skills alternating scream, choke, throw and push. Against a sin you might be okay, against an op it’s already over. You’re now standing close to the objective with no resolve. The Op will flash bang you for 8s of stun forcing you to CC break where they will stealth out and sap you for 8s more.

If two stealthers go for the stealth cap, there is nothing you can do. It’s like you’re standing next to the objective.

Maybe a pull will solve the single stealth attacker, I don’t see it doing anything for the double stealth.

Isagoras · July 17, 2019

About rage discipline

Previously there has been a change in name for the mara version of it, Fury. The purpose was to make each discipline different.

And until now there were different. But for 6.0 there will be identical in term of tactical items.

In theses conditions why play Rage jugg when Fury mara has gravity vortex (immunity to interrupts and all controlling effects for 6 sec), force camouflage... in pvp, in ops Bloodthirst, Predation for the group, and in all I've seen on starparse better result ?

That's why most of dps jugg plays vengeance theses days in pvp and ops.

Specific tactical items for Rage jugg could be a way to put back on track this discipline.

Today the rage discipline is far to be enraged. It's in cage. Free it please ! Like you have free the fury discipline.

Delani · July 18, 2019

I saw the datamined info and the only way to allow DPS juggernauts a shot in hell with the new changes is to allow 2 charges on madash. They need it it as a gap closer

MandFlurry · July 19, 2019

I hope there is gonna be some Tactical that Immortals and their Mirror's can use to do some damage as most of us Tanks are sick and tired not doing any. real damage.

Darthanimus · August 5, 2019

I played vengeance, here are my thoughts.

Tactical items:

Cut to pieces: very good tactical, extra AoEs improve dps by a large margin.

Vicious cycle: good, get to use retaliation more, with war bringer and destroyer its a useful tactical

Hemophiliac slash: good for sustained dps, I noticed a good dps improvement using this.

Shielding shadow: needs to be more than 3%, felt that it didn't make a big difference.

Embrace the pain: feel that this is a good tactical for dps, but this will almost certainly be far too overpowered for skanks and tanks.

Higher focus: Does not build enough rabid furor, I would not use this, as I think it would not make a difference to dps.

Rancor's tail: I would never use this, 3 min CD just to use an extra force push is not ever worth it.

Set bonuses:

Descent of the fearless: Does not build enough rabid furor, I would not use this, as I think it would not make a difference to dps.

Flawless riposte: disliked this armor set as the damage bonus is far too small and infrequent, I tested this and it did not give 10% per stack, more like 5%. Even with 10% its not worth taking for this situational set bonus.

Nimble master: ok set bonus, but does not work with force push so this decreases its worth. I wouldn't use this at end game.

Undying: not very useful, with through victory its slightly better, but dont think it would be on many peoples "to have" list.

Lord of pain: good set, should be useful.

Perfect form: not that useful, does not give much dps improvement.

Force bound: best set there is, very useful in PvP, I will be looking to obtain this set for end game.

I feel that some of the sets and tactical items are really not that useful, the worst sets and tactical items generally have situational use, and dependent on abilities with very long CDs.

EricMusco · August 9, 2019

Updated the Juggernaut set bonuses to include their 4 and 6 pc bonuses.

-eric

LeyDrewid · August 9, 2019

No CD on retaliate for Immortal could result in insane apm for trash pulls. Good for a laugh not sure if it would be exciting anywhere else.

The DR on Threatening Scream still feels more like a DPS set bonus. The CD reduction is worse than current tank 4 piece. I just don't see it getting much play in PvE by tanks or DPS.

Edited August 9, 2019 by LeyDrewid

AireStyx · August 9, 2019

These updated set bonuses are just plain terrible for both dps and tank. As a tank this straight out makes us more squishy by changing the set bonuses to what they would be in 6.0. So here are the options I take either of these new options which both make me more cool down reliant then before or I keep my old armorings and lose the hp and threat generation gained by the higher level gear.

I get that the goal is to make set bonuses less the balance change then the tactical items but niether of these set bonuses help a jugg. You need to go back to the drawing board here and rethink the options as I am losing time on my taunts by dropping current set bonuses and losing mitigation.

Lowarro · August 9, 2019

Updated the Juggernaut set bonuses to include their 4 and 6 pc bonuses.

-eric

Are there updated Warrior set bonuses at 4 and 6 pc you can release? Especially considering that the Juggernaut specific set bonuses are only a quarter of whats available to Juggernauts.

KainrycKarr · August 13, 2019

Grit Teeth is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too strong - 10 seconds needs to be brought down to 2 seconds, or can only occur once every five or six seconds or something. That is *nuts* to give a guaranteed heal to full *twice* in the same fight.

LeyDrewid · August 14, 2019

Grit Teeth is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too strong - 10 seconds needs to be brought down to 2 seconds, or can only occur once every five or six seconds or something. That is *nuts* to give a guaranteed heal to full *twice* in the same fight.

Since you don't Jugg, let me help. 1) If Enraged Defense (ED) stays at its current value it more like heal to half, not full. 2) Nothing is guaranteed with ED, you MUST take damage to get healed.

This tactical is a CD reduction. How much varies from activation to activation but I did the math for 15m assuming both ED and fake health are used on cool down and DPS get 18 activations and tanks get 26. Currently Juggs would get 10.

Clearly you are upset from a PvP perspective. I don't do much ranked PvP, but as I understand it Jugg dps are often targeted 1st. The idea that a tank would be hard to kill doesn't seem that crazy.

Edited August 14, 2019 by LeyDrewid

Juggernaut Ability, Tactical Item, and Set Bonus Feedback

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