The problem is that the Original Trilogy very directly makes the point that Love is a good thing. Your position isn't in line with the message of the film. It can only go on for eternity if you refuse to accept the main theme of the movies which is that love is redemptive.

 

I'm sorry, but you are just incorrect on this point. The events of the Star Wars movies prove that the Jedi (and you) are incorrect in believing that love is dangerous or a weakness for a force user.

 

I once again point out that love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall. Fear was the responsible emotion and fear is in opposition to love.

 

The only way to arrive at your position is to totally and completely miss the entire point of the movies. It's like believing that the story of the tortoise & the hare is a cautionary tale warning us of the dangers of taking it slow and steady during a race. The story is telling us the opposite of what you seem to have taken from it.

 

Ask yourself this. Where did that fear come from? His fear was born from his love of Padme. I did not miss the point of the movies. I am speaking from the viewpoint of the Jedi. I agree with them partially, but I do not fully agree with them on rejecting love. As I have said, love is a double-edged sword. It condemned Anakin to servitude to the Sith, but later saved him.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Aurbere

Ask yourself this. Where did that fear come from?

 

From the Jedi Council's rules against marriage that forced Anakin to hide his relationship with Padme thus allowing Palpatine to manipulate him.

 

In short: it came from the very position you are espousing.

From the Jedi Council's rules against marriage that forced Anakin to hide his relationship with Padme thus allowing Palpatine to manipulate him.

 

In short: it came from the very position you are espousing.

 

Anakin would have still had those visions. It was the visions that caused his fear. Not the Jedi Council. It was the Force itself that caused his fear.

Anakin would have still had those visions. It was the visions that caused his fear. Not the Jedi Council. It was the Force itself that caused his fear.

 

Wrong again.

 

The visions were a result of Palpatine's manipulations.

 

Follow me here:

 

If Anakin had been allowed to be open about his relationship he would never had been in the position of being manipulated...he never would have seen Palpatine as his only option...he never would have fallen...Padme never would have gone into shock after being choked by Anakin....Anakin never would have had the visions in the first place.

 

The mistake that gave Palpatine the opening to work was the Jedi Council's rules that forced his relationship underground. The chain of events that led to Anakin's fall would never had been possible if they had not made the very mistake you are making.

Wrong again.

 

The visions were a result of Palpatine's manipulations.

 

Follow me here:

 

If Anakin had been allowed to be open about his relationship he would never had been in the position of being manipulated...he never would have seen Palpatine as his only option...he never would have fallen...Padme never would have gone into shock after being choked by Anakin....Anakin never would have had the visions in the first place.

 

The mistake that gave Palpatine the opening to work was the Jedi Council's rules that forced his relationship underground. The chain of events that led to Anakin's fall would never had been possible if they had not made the very mistake you are making.

 

What is your proof that they were Palpatine's manipulations? Just asking because I suspected it, but haven't found anything to support it (to my recollection).

 

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I agree with your position on love. I'm merely speaking from the point of view of the Jedi. I rarely disagree with the Jedi, but I do disagree with their position on love. But I do understand what their position is. I'm one of those guys that sees things from all points of view. And I understand why the Jedi believe what they do when it comes to love.

Keep in mind that this isn't only my opinion. This is the main theme of the saga. The reason Luke saves the day and redeems not only his father, but the Jedi and the entire galaxy as well is because he was not blinded the way the Jedi Council was. This is why he takes his Jedi Order in the opposite direction.

Keep in mind that this isn't only my opinion. This is the main theme of the saga. The reason Luke saves the day and redeems not only his father, but the Jedi and the entire galaxy as well is because he was not blinded the way the Jedi Council was. This is why he takes his Jedi Order in the opposite direction.

 

I understand that. And I agree with the NJO's stance on love. But I also understand why the PT Jedi believed what they did. I know it is the main theme of the Star Wars saga, which is why I called love a double-edged sword. It was a factor in Anakin's fall as well as his redemption. Anakin's fall came about through a combination of several factors. His love was one of them.

 

Anyway, we've debated this topic enough and derailed this thread enough. We've made both of our points clear. If you agree with some of what I've said fine, but if not we can agree to disagree and move on.

What is your proof that they were Palpatine's manipulations? Just asking because I suspected it, but haven't found anything to support it (to my recollection).

 

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I agree with your position on love. I'm merely speaking from the point of view of the Jedi. I rarely disagree with the Jedi, but I do disagree with their position on love. But I do understand what their position is. I'm one of those guys that sees things from all points of view. And I understand why the Jedi believe what they do when it comes to love.

 

I'm not saying he directly caused them, though it is very posible. You have to recognize what Yoda says about visions. "Always in motion the future is." Think about the motion of events that caused Anakin's fall.

 

1. He falls in love with Padme, but must marry her in secret because of the Jedi's rules.

2. Palpatine senses Anakin's feelings of alienation from the Jedi Council and uses that to get close to him.

3. Anakin has visions of Padme's death in child birth (which only occurs b/c of events further down the chain).

4. Palpatine somehow knows of these visions (maybe he knows b/c he is causing them maybe not...it doesn't really matter) and convinces Anakin that the dark side is the only possible way to save Padme.

5. Anakin chooses the dark path and this choice causes Padme's death (thus creating the visions in step 3).

 

If he had not been forced to keep his relationship secret he would have had many many options for who to seek council from when he had visions. Since he did not know Palpatine was a force user it would make almost no sense for him to listen to Palpatine about this subject when he could get advice from Obi Wan, Mace Windu, or Yoda. It only makes sense in the story the way it is because he has no other options.

 

Palpatine never could have manipulated him the way that he did & then he never would have fell & then the visions would never have happened in the first place. Simply put, if the Jedi's rules against marriage had not existed the visions never would have happened.

I'm not saying he directly caused them, though it is very posible. You have to recognize what Yoda says about visions. "Always in motion the future is." Think about the motion of events that caused Anakin's fall.

 

1. He falls in love with Padme, but must marry her in secret because of the Jedi's rules.

2. Palpatine senses Anakin's feelings of alienation from the Jedi Council and uses that to get close to him.

3. Anakin has visions of Padme's death in child birth (which only occurs b/c of events further down the chain).

4. Palpatine somehow knows of these visions (maybe he knows b/c he is causing them maybe not...it doesn't really matter) and convinces Anakin that the dark side is the only possible way to save Padme.

5. Anakin chooses the dark path and this choice causes Padme's death (thus creating the visions in step 3).

 

If he had not been forced to keep his relationship secret he would have had many many options for who to seek council from when he had visions. Since he did not know Palpatine was a force user it would make almost no sense for him to listen to Palpatine about this subject when he could get advice from Obi Wan, Mace Windu, or Yoda. It only makes sense in the story the way it is because he has no other options.

 

Palpatine never could have manipulated him the way that he did & then he never would have fell & then the visions would never have happened in the first place. Simply put, if the Jedi's rules against marriage had not existed the visions never would have happened.

 

A very logical assesment. One thing though. I think Captain Panaka or Typho told him about the marriage. Not sure though, but I do remember reading it from somewhere. Anakin actually did go to see Yoda about the visions, but kept Padme's name out of it. Yoda then said to let go of everything he fears to lose. Then Palpatine tells Anakin that the Dark Side can help him. So I feel that Anakin would have confided in Palpatine anyway.

 

But whatever. We've derailed this thread enough and had ourselves a good debate. Good fun and all that.

 

EDIT: Final thought. I agree with you on what you've been saying. All I've been saying is that I understand why the Jedi believe what they do. Anyway, I think we've put our points across well enough and made a good debate out of it.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Aurbere

The problem is that the Original Trilogy very directly makes the point that Love is a good thing. Your position isn't in line with the message of the film. It can only go on for eternity if you refuse to accept the main theme of the movies which is that love is redemptive.

 

I'm sorry, but you are just incorrect on this point. The events of the Star Wars movies prove that the Jedi (and you) are incorrect in believing that love is dangerous or a weakness for a force user.

 

I once again point out that love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall. Fear was the responsible emotion and fear is in opposition to love.

 

The only way to arrive at your position is to totally and completely miss the entire point of the movies. It's like believing that the story of the tortoise & the hare is a cautionary tale warning us of the dangers of taking it slow and steady during a race. The story is telling us the opposite of what you seem to have taken from it.

 

Love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall? Think about it. What was he afraid of? Losing Padme! BTW fear is not the opposition of love. Hate is the opposit of love (imo).

 

Yes, part of the movie's point is that love is a good and redemptive thing. I not only agree with this because of the events of the movies, but because of my spiritual beliefs.

 

But to deny that love CAN cloud your judgement is total bogus. You can look to the movies or real life to proove this. They'll both tell you the same thing I'm saying.

I understand that. And I agree with the NJO's stance on love. But I also understand why the PT Jedi believed what they did. I know it is the main theme of the Star Wars saga, which is why I called love a double-edged sword. It was a factor in Anakin's fall as well as his redemption. Anakin's fall came about through a combination of several factors. His love was one of them.

 

Anyway, we've debated this topic enough and derailed this thread enough. We've made both of our points clear. If you agree with some of what I've said fine, but if not we can agree to disagree and move on.

 

Yes. This thread has derailed, crashed into a building, and exploded into oblivion. lol

 

No offence, but some of you guys are TERIBBLE at staying on topic. lol

Yes. This thread has derailed, crashed into a building, and exploded into oblivion. lol

 

No offence, but some of you guys are TERIBBLE at staying on topic. lol

 

Yeah I suck at staying on topic. That's because I like to respond to the points that people have against my own points. I like a good debate and that derails topics. It gets a little out of hand sometimes and I try to find a way to end a debate peacefully.

I don't understand why you aren't getting this. No one is saying the prequel or Old Republic Jedi didn't frown upon attachments or love. The point is that they were wrong for doing this, which is why the policy changed after ROTJ. The movies, the central focus of the trilogy despite what some fanboys of the novels like to believe, teach that attachments are not a path to the dark side. Failure to control or deal with your emotions is a path to the dark side. I mean, a pancake shortage can lead to the dark side if you have rage issues and really like pancakes. The padawan system can and did lead many to the dark side when they had conflicts with their masters or formed bonds that led to feelings they couldn't control. The issue is the Jedi's ability to control and deal with his or her emotions. You simply can't prevent people from having emotions, so you have to train people in how to cope with those emotions and hopefully seek council when they are having problems. Clearly, that's not what the prequel-era Jedi did, and look what happened.

I don't understand why you aren't getting this. No one is saying the prequel or Old Republic Jedi didn't frown upon attachments or love. The point is that they were wrong for doing this, which is why the policy changed after ROTJ. The movies, the central focus of the trilogy despite what some fanboys of the novels like to believe, teach that attachments are not a path to the dark side. Failure to control or deal with your emotions is a path to the dark side. I mean, a pancake shortage can lead to the dark side if you have rage issues and really like pancakes. The padawan system can and did lead many to the dark side when they had conflicts with their masters or formed bonds that led to feelings they couldn't control. The issue is the Jedi's ability to control and deal with his or her emotions. You simply can't prevent people from having emotions, so you have to train people in how to cope with those emotions and hopefully seek council when they are having problems. Clearly, that's not what the prequel-era Jedi did, and look what happened.

 

Im guessing Darth Baras had this pancake problem you speak of?

With Revan im only going to say my two cents Revan at full power (not Foundry revan since he clearly was a madman and drained from 300 years of fighting off the emperor's control) is clearly stronger than any member of the dark council or any other sith in the empire. The only time the Emperor experienced fear of dying was when he fought Revan at full power (this is coming from the Revan novel). During Act 2 of JK story

Dark Council members are the strongest sith in the empire and The Emperor's Wrath is stronger than most if not all of them. Ik after i post this il get "what about the Dread Masters" cmon there are 6 of them and there only that powerful when they are together which is stated in their codex. My point is where the emperor has easily killed multiple dark council members at once (which he also did in the Revan novel) he had struggled in his 2nd fight with Revan. Just my opinion using facts.

With Revan im only going to say my two cents Revan at full power (not Foundry revan since he clearly was a madman and drained from 300 years of fighting off the emperor's control) is clearly stronger than any member of the dark council or any other sith in the empire. The only time the Emperor experienced fear of dying was when he fought Revan at full power (this is coming from the Revan novel). During Act 2 of JK story

he defeats 4 jedi before they can even get near him 2 of them were near the equivalent in power of a Dark Council member and 1 of them beat his Wrath on top of it.

Dark Council members are the strongest sith in the empire and The Emperor's Wrath is stronger than most if not all of them. Ik after i post this il get "what about the Dread Masters" cmon there are 6 of them and there only that powerful when they are together which is stated in their codex. My point is where the emperor has easily killed multiple dark council members at once (which he also did in the Revan novel) he had struggled in his 2nd fight with Revan. Just my opinion using facts.

 

Very good point. No arguments here.

My point is where the emperor has easily killed multiple dark council members at once (which he also did in the Revan novel) he had struggled in his 2nd fight with Revan. Just my opinion using facts.

 

The Emperor has never been seen killing multiple Dark Council members, he sent his Imperial Guard out in the novel to take them all out, they were enhanced because of their link to Vitiate and those members didn't have a clue what was happening, it was basically their own version of Order 66.

The Emperor has never been seen killing multiple Dark Council members, he sent his Imperial Guard out in the novel to take them all out, they were enhanced because of their link to Vitiate and those members didn't have a clue what was happening, it was basically their own version of Order 66.

 

Point taken but the Guard still had their power enhanced by the Emperor himself and Revan did easily beat Darth Nyriss one of the more powerful Dark Council members at the time who wiped the floor with Scourge and Meetra without breakng a sweat.

Point taken but the Guard still had their power enhanced by the Emperor himself and Revan did easily beat Darth Nyriss one of the more powerful Dark Council members at the time who wiped the floor with Scourge and Meetra without breakng a sweat.

 

He used Tutaminis to deflect her own dark power back at her, not as impressive as you think, then consider the fact that the Exile was never displayed as a mighty duellist of any sort, but instead someone who had mastered the Light Side of the Force and you see why that duel isn't exactly a great measure of Surik's abilities, nor Scourge's for that matter, considering he was basically her apprentice his entire life.

He used Tutaminis to deflect her own dark power back at her, not as impressive as you think, then consider the fact that the Exile was never displayed as a mighty duellist of any sort, but instead someone who had mastered the Light Side of the Force and you see why that duel isn't exactly a great measure of Surik's abilities, nor Scourge's for that matter, considering he was basically her apprentice his entire life.

 

Where does it state Meetra Surik mastered the Light-Side?

 

 

In my opinion and most would think you can't really master either side unless your the Chosen One or a descendant of him.

Where does it state Meetra Surik mastered the Light-Side?

 

 

In my opinion and most would think you can't really master either side unless your the Chosen One or a descendant of him.

 

She achieved Enlightenment with the Light Side of the Force. Not sure if this is mastery of the Light Side, but it is an incredible understanding of it.

 

Well Sidious was a master of the Dark Side. But other than that I agree that only the Chosen One and his descendants could achieve true mastery of the Force.

Where does it state Meetra Surik mastered the Light-Side?

 

 

In my opinion and most would think you can't really master either side unless your the Chosen One or a descendant of him.

 

"Once judged by the council, she realised how wrong she had been in following the old Jedi's ways with such zealousness, for they themselves were no longer the true Jedi, they lacked understanding and were filled with fear, but she knew the Jedi Code was still true and her belief in the Light Side were all she truly needed.

 

The Exile felt a deeper understanding of herself and the Force, even with the Sith whispering things in her ear, she no longer felt confusion or fear of recent events, only strength and conviction in what the Jedi once stood for."

 

"The Exile had achieved Force Enlightenment, something many Jedi never amount to, it was the total understanding of the self and that person's purpose in the force, the end result was an "Enlightened" Jedi, having unlocked and harnessed fully the Light Side of the Force.

 

This power she used in the face of Nihilus whom normally struck Force Users with fear, freezing them, but her new found resilience and belief allowed her to stand and face him without doubt, she later opened herself to this new found power at the Trayus Academy, allowing the will of the Force itself to guide her in open combat against the Dark Jedi and their Masters."

 

The Knights of the Old Republic Sourcebook.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

The real reason people are Raven fans is that he was their character in a well written game. People hate to see their character be anything less than the best at everything.

The real reason people are Raven fans is that he was their character in a well written game. People hate to see their character be anything less than the best at everything.

 

Is this aimed at me? I never said Revan was the best thing ever. I never said anything like that at all. All I said is that he's no push over and that he has considerable power. Interpret that however you want, but it's nothing remotely near "the best thing ever."

He used Tutaminis to deflect her own dark power back at her, not as impressive as you think, then consider the fact that the Exile was never displayed as a mighty duellist of any sort, but instead someone who had mastered the Light Side of the Force and you see why that duel isn't exactly a great measure of Surik's abilities, nor Scourge's for that matter, considering he was basically her apprentice his entire life.

 

If he was indeed using Tutaminis, then I don't know why it would be "unimpressive." To me this says that his knowledge of was considerable to pull such a thing off. If you go to the wikia, then you'll notice that the only Tutaminis practitioners are the really powerfull guys. It seems that this is indeed an impressive ability. Maybe I'm wrong, but I certainly wouldn't say it isn't impressive.

 

Besides, I thought that you (and Aurbere) were of the impression that Revan was "One with the force during this scene." Just curious. Actually, I would like to discuss with you why you think that Revan was one with the force at this point.