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DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.


Crittlesticks

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So with the release of the combat logging system with 1.2, one of the first things I did was install a combat log parser and start fiddling with my DPS rotation.

 

I tried both Lethality and Concealment specs.

 

On both specs, the highest percentage of my damage was coming from poison damage, so keeping up your corrosive dart and acid blade / corrosive grenade is essential.

 

The specs I was using may need some tweaking, but overall I find them to be pretty sound.

 

Concealment: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGIrodzRduoZhMoz.1

Lethality: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401bfZhZhMrkrMhdGR.1

 

Overall, I found that believe it or not, I was getting higher DPS from concealment. Keep in mind that all of these numbers are coming from the operation level training dummy on fleet. As such you have to remember that this is the "optimal" situation where I am not being targeted by anything, having to move out form behind the boss or having to chase down adds or anything like that.

 

for concealment I was averaging about 1400 dps. It would spike to over 1500 when I had adrenals / damage trinkets popped. I played with the power trinket and the critical / surge one, but ultimately I was getting higher DPS with my matrix cube and energy damage on hit relic. I currently have rull Rakata enforcer gear, and have removed the non-essential enhancements that were putting me way above the accuracy soft cap. I replaced these with the enhancement from sith warrior main hand / off hand rakata pieces which give endurance, critical and surge.

 

I was using the following rotation.

 

1.) Hidden Strike - I would always open up with Hidden Strike if available. Always used with Acid Blade

2.) Rifle Shot - If I was getting close to 60-70% energy.

3.) Shiv - for Stim Boost and to get TA stacks for the damage buff.

4.) Stim Boost - Keep this refreshed at all times, try not to refresh it with more than 1-2 second remaining.

5.) Backstab - Always use this with Acid Blade. There is a DPS increase when allowing the damage of acid blade's poison to finish when used with the initial Hidden Strike rather than re-applying immediately with Acid Blade / Backstab. Since it just refreshes and you lose out on additional damage ticks.

6.) Corrosive Dart - Keep this up at all times.

7.) Shiv - to maintain TA stacks and for Laceration.

8.) Laceration - Do not, do not, do not use this if you do not have a poison effect on the target.

 

Lethality was still pretty good, and it was a little bit more forgiving. Due to IA's having a high critical strike rating you are not normally deprived of energy when speccing lethality, whereas if you are running concealment if you make to many mistakes in your DPS rotation, you can very quickly become overzealous with your lacerations and find yourself running dry on energy.

 

Lethality was pulling a pretty steady 1275-1300 DPS with the following rotation.

 

1.) Shiv - to proc my initial TA

2.) Stim Boost - always keeping this refreshed and trying not to refresh with more than 1-2 seconds remaining.

3.) Rifle Shot - If I was getting close to 60-70% energy

4.) Weakening Blast - Keep this refreshed as much as possible, but when culling I would notice the stacks would often fall off faster than the cooldown would refresh

5.) Corrosive Dart - Keep this refreshed

6.) Corrosive Grenade - Same as Dart

7.) Shiv - To maintain the damage buff from TA or to Cull

8.) Cull - Make sure you have both poisons and Weaking Blast up before using Cull, also try not to use up your last TA using Cull unless your shiv is coming off cooldown and you have the energy level to use Cull x 2 and another Shiv.

 

So while I was not amazed by the DPS numbers by any means, I am sure there are ways I can improve up on my decision making when it comes to skill priority, but I believe that this does go to show that operatives are a legitimate source of DPS in raids and should not be overlooked. While snipers in my guild were getting slightly higher DPS, maybe 100 more, I don't remember all of the numbers I was getting from different people in my guild last night.

 

Ultimately, the operative class is easy to play difficult to master, and I believe that with the proper skill rotation, cooldown management and stat distribution, that a lot of the operative I see complaining on the forums can improve. Making them feel less slighted by bioware when it comes to their class and DPS'ing and instead work on improving their play so that they can perform optimally and achieve the highest DPS results possible. I will continue to gather more pertinent DPS information when we finish clearing the new operation and put together a more in-depth analysis here as well as on the sithwarrior.com forums.

 

Anyone else have any numbers that they have pulled from their DPS meters so we can check for consistency? I am currently using the MOX damage parser that can be found here.

Edited by Crittlesticks
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I was finding similar numbers as Lethality on the training dummy as well. Doing an actual instance dropped down much lower though, because of the need to stop and move, getting frozen/knocked back, all that fun stuff. I'll give Concealment a try again for the first time in a while soon (I've already respecced 3 times since yesterday for various reasons, I don't know want the cost to get too high). I actually enjoy Concealment more but the positional issues and melee unfriendly encounters pushed me out of it.

 

The sad thing though, is that my fresh 50 MM Sniper with oranges, blues and greens pulled almost the same numbers as my Operative with mostly Rakata on the dummy.

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I was finding similar numbers as Lethality on the training dummy as well. Doing an actual instance dropped down much lower though, because of the need to stop and move, getting frozen/knocked back, all that fun stuff. I'll give Concealment a try again for the first time in a while soon (I've already respecced 3 times since yesterday for various reasons, I don't know want the cost to get too high). I actually enjoy Concealment more but the positional issues and melee unfriendly encounters pushed me out of it.

 

The sad thing though, is that my fresh 50 MM Sniper with oranges, blues and greens pulled almost the same numbers as my Operative with mostly Rakata on the dummy.

 

I did notice that snipers were getting slightly higher DPS as I mentioned in my post, and I in fact also tried out the dummy with my fresh level 50 marauder, and he was only pulling slightly lower DPS than out guilds Rakata geared marauder. I don't have enough data yet to make a sound conclusion, but it seems like its about the same for all classes / advanced classes.

 

One thing I have been noticing about concealment, is that in operations your overall DPS does not drop all that much, since it is more of a "bursty" spec. Whereas if I have to move around a lot when using lethality it is difficult to get my poisons to tick for the entire duration, that or I have to switch targets a lot which is not optimal.

 

I firmly believe that even with the not so melee friendly boss fights that concealment is still the way to go for the best OPS dps. It just forces you to be more situationally aware.

Edited by Crittlesticks
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Yeah, it's hard to compare to characters with different gear. But I recall as a fresh 50 operative my damage was really crappy (all of us were in my guild, we couldn't beat enrage timers in our first HMs) but in a weak of gearing the difference was huge.

 

The worst part about Lethality is trying to keep an eye on those TINY LITTLE DOT ICONS.

 

What I would give for the new UI customization to allow resizing of just certain buff/debuff icons.

 

I've also never really been clear on whether Lethality benefits from more Accuracy than Concealment or not.

 

 

Maybe if you're competing against yourself it isn't so bad.

 

Throw in a marauder or assassin into the mix, you become an injured horse in that race.

 

You know what they do to injured horses? They put them down for good.

 

Good thing I'm a person among friends in a guild and not a race horse :rolleyes:

We learnd a long time ago that you benefit more from bringing the player rather than the class.

 

We haven't had issues beating enrage timers in HM/NMM so there's no need to be picky.

However, I am personally sensitive about my own damage so I'll make changes where necessary, even if my guild never would.

Edited by chuixupu
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Maybe if you're competing against yourself it isn't so bad.

 

Throw in a marauder or assassin into the mix, you become an injured horse in that race.

 

You know what they do to injured horses? They put them down for good.

 

This mentality is exactly what I am talking about. I don't understand how people can really compare or expect an operatives DPS to be exactly the same or higher than a class like a marauder. The Marauder class has one purpose, to DPS. Operatives on the other hand can if needed help top off a tank, or throw a heal or two if everyone is taking burst AOE damage, while marauders cannot, same goes for snipers. You cannot realistically compare a pure DPS class to a hybrid and expect the pure damage numbers to be equal, how would that be fair for people that play Marauders or Snipers? As for assassins...given that both players are playing at the same skill level, the DPS increase that I have been seeing were minimal at best between an operative and an assassin.

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This mentality is exactly what I am talking about. I don't understand how people can really compare or expect an operatives DPS to be exactly the same or higher than a class like a marauder. The Marauder class has one purpose, to DPS. Operatives on the other hand can if needed help top off a tank, or throw a heal or two if everyone is taking burst AOE damage, while marauders cannot, same goes for snipers. You cannot realistically compare a pure DPS class to a hybrid and expect the pure damage numbers to be equal, how would that be fair for people that play Marauders or Snipers? As for assassins...given that both players are playing at the same skill level, the DPS increase that I have been seeing were minimal at best between an operative and an assassin.

 

 

You don't seem to understand class balance.

 

 

If one class is vastly superior to another in a phase of the game, the inferior class gets chalked up as useless.

 

This is pertinent when you start talking about thinks like enrage timers or dps races.

 

You would not want to bring an inferior dps to an encounter where there are certain requirements to meet. And if you meet the requirements, the superior class is also prefered because it allows for room for error.

 

 

 

 

This happens in every MMO, and SWTOR is not some abnormality from this formula. If classes cannot be competitive, they are not viable.

Edited by GeoLager
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I'm pretty sure Bioware has stated that they don't believe in the hybrid tax. So I don't believe any class is supposed to be expected to be considerably lower in damage.

 

Hybrids are pvp problem - being a jack of all trades, master of none in PVE group settings hurts more than it helps most of the time.

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Part of the reason why WoW went into the crapper was because class balance got seriously screwed up.

 

In PvE, WoW had mages dominating everyone, melee was only brought for interrupts, rogues were kept artificially low on dps because of pvp implications and hybrid classes were told to get to the back of the bus.

 

 

People left WoW in droves because PvE was no longer fun, even if it was easy.

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As someone who played and still somewhat plays WoW for over 7 years, I don't believe that was the case at all. Most of the classes have been decently balanced since WOTLK (when they abandoned the idea of the hybrid tax), and the content has gotten extremely casual friendly. I almost always could out-dps our mages on my rogue with the except of certain fights that were extremely melee-penalizing. They did acknowledge those issues and corrected them. There were also always the very melee-favoring fights as well...most of the stuff in Icecrown Citadel was.

 

Most of my guild left WoW because we just got so sick of the same game, same models, same engine, same mechanics for all those years, and whether you agree or not, a sort of "kiddifying" feeling the game's direction seems to be going in.

Edited by chuixupu
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You don't seem to understand class balance.

 

 

If one class is vastly superior to another in a phase of the game, the inferior class gets chalked up as useless.

 

This is pertinent when you start talking about thinks like enrage timers or dps races.

 

You would not want to bring an inferior dps to an encounter where there are certain requirements to meet. And if you meet the requirements, the superior class is also prefered because it allows for room for error.

 

 

 

 

This happens in every MMO, and SWTOR is not some abnormality from this formula. If classes cannot be competitive, they are not viable.

 

We full clear NM KP and EV on 8 man and 16 man. I have DPS'd for both and we do not ever hit an enrage timer nor do we ever fall behind on the DPS races, your statements are unfounded and have no actual data, numbers or in my opinion any Nightmare Mode experience to back them.

 

As for room for error, we have plenty of times where someone learning the encounter or even one of our core raids will screw something up and we have to adjust. It's called being a good raider. Optimal != necessary. Also, something you probably failed to realize is that if you do not bring along people who want to DPS as an operative or what have you. These people do not get any gear, which if my 8 year experience with MMO's has taught me anything, class balance is changing all the time. You don't want to have zero operatives that have fully decked out DPS gear when there is a shift and all of a sudden they are on top. Same goes for any class.

Edited by Crittlesticks
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This mentality is exactly what I am talking about. I don't understand how people can really compare or expect an operatives DPS to be exactly the same or higher than a class like a marauder. The Marauder class has one purpose, to DPS. Operatives on the other hand can if needed help top off a tank, or throw a heal or two if everyone is taking burst AOE damage, while marauders cannot, same goes for snipers. You cannot realistically compare a pure DPS class to a hybrid and expect the pure damage numbers to be equal, how would that be fair for people that play Marauders or Snipers? As for assassins...given that both players are playing at the same skill level, the DPS increase that I have been seeing were minimal at best between an operative and an assassin.
Considering that Marauders have higher DPS, a gap closer, higher survivability and group buffs, yes, there is a problem. There is no point in taking a DPS Operative over a Marauder. Yes, Marauders are DPS only, but that shouldn't matter, as we have already established there shouldn't be a hybrid tax.

 

Healing/off-healing isn't a DPS Op's job. It isn't needed and if that happens, it means someone else isn't doing their's.

 

But if we want to compare classes that can heal/DPS, fine, let's look at Sorcs. Even with their nerf, most parses that I've seen have them coming at or near the top in sustained DPS, and they offer ranged as well as utility such as friendly pull. They can also off-heal better since bubble is instant cast.

 

Also note that you had to re-itemize a lot of your gear in order to have somewhat comparable DPS. The fact is, Operatives have possibly THE worst itemized sets in the game, which means that in order for us to see the same increase in stats, we need to farm multiple sets and remod them which can be difficult for a lot of people to do.

 

I do appreciate the numbers that you put up, and the information is very helpful. But as I have said many times, being "viable" does not mean being "useful".

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Healing/off-healing isn't a DPS Op's job. It isn't needed and if that happens, it means someone else isn't doing their's.

 

While I do agree with mostly everything you said, I only threw this point in here because mistakes happen and if / when you are needed to do this, you can. I was not implying it was an operatives job to do so and I am well aware that sorcs can throw better off heals, even in a DPS spec.

 

My point of this entire post was only that the slightly lower DPS (granted you have to remod almost everything you have to achieve said DPS) you get as an operative compared to some of the other classes in the game does not warrant not bringing an operative in to DPS.

 

People forget that this is a game sometimes, and that its not always about what is the absolute most optimal group makeup. I am only trying to point out that an operative can at least somewhat keep up with other classes in DPS and that they ARE a viable DPS class currently, even if they are not the highest. If played correctly, it will not be your fault if your guild hits an enrage timer or loses a DPS race.

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Considering that Marauders have higher DPS, a gap closer, higher survivability and group buffs, yes, there is a problem. There is no point in taking a DPS Operative over a Marauder. Yes, Marauders are DPS only, but that shouldn't matter, as we have already established there shouldn't be a hybrid tax.

.

 

Well, honestly I typically outdps and have a higher survival rate than our Marauder.

 

By all rights, according to statistics people have claimed, she *should* beat me, but I'm just a better player, always have been.

 

The thing is, people aren't usually sitting there deciding whether to bring an Operative or a Marauder. You're going to be grabbing the people you know that play well and know the content above everything else. And everyone hates stacking too many of the same class for competition reasons anyway. However, I can say that if we need to pug someone, we do often opt for a ranged dps of any class rather than a melee of any class because of the mechanics of the Ops. That's the most annoying design flaw I see so far. Far too much melee punishment. (and also, I might add, the reason I might switch to my sniper...not so much of dps but because I'd much rather just sit up and solve the puzzle and dps on that stupid boss in KP that run around on the ground)

Edited by chuixupu
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You don't seem to understand class balance.

 

I rather think he does.

 

 

If one class is vastly superior to another in a phase of the game, the inferior class gets chalked up as useless.

 

This is pertinent when you start talking about thinks like enrage timers or dps races.

 

You would not want to bring an inferior dps to an encounter where there are certain requirements to meet. And if you meet the requirements, the superior class is also prefered because it allows for room for error.

 

 

This happens in every MMO, and SWTOR is not some abnormality from this formula. If classes cannot be competitive, they are not viable.

 

You are only assisting in creating the illusion of balance problems with the perception it leads to spot exclusion. If Operatives could do equal dps to Marauders then Marauder's would be penalised on DPS spots because all they can do is DPS in 3 specs. The Operative can throw emergency heals therefore brings equal dps and potentially raid saving utility. Who would be favoured more? Within 5% is not 'vastly superior'. Class viability and competitiveness is purely subjective and always will be. Lets see what happens with the parses over the enxt few weeks.

 

Marauders need to be just ahead on the DPS meters and BW saying Opo's are within 5% is good enough for me. If that margin of difference chalks the Opo as useless, using your words and according to the playerbase then its the playerbase that need to get a fecking grip on reality. Its always easy to point out enrage timers and DPS races when your trophy hunting for buffs for your class.

 

From what you are stating, those classes that are [wrongly] perceived as being useless, such as a Concealment Operative's (although I beleive sustained damage could be better) just because they are behind Marauders by up to 5% need to be buffed level with them? Otherwise they dont get invited to raid because they are vastly inferior? Dont you see how that then creates yet more balance problems and class representation problems?

 

If an Operation is going to wipe on boss its not because there is a [perceived] useless, inferior DPS in the group. You guys need to get away from this mentality. A boss wipe is generally a result of many things not being executed efficiently and mistakes being made collectively by the group.

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I rather think he does.

 

 

 

 

You are only assisting in creating the illusion of balance problems with the perception it leads to spot exclusion. If Operatives could do equal dps to Marauders then Marauder's would be penalised on DPS spots because all they can do is DPS in 3 specs. The Operative can throw emergency heals therefore brings equal dps and potentially raid saving utility. Who would be favoured more? Within 5% is not 'vastly superior'. Class viability and competitiveness is purely subjective and always will be. Lets see what happens with the parses over the enxt few weeks.

 

Marauders need to be just ahead on the DPS meters and BW saying Opo's are within 5% is good enough for me. If that margin of difference chalks the Opo as useless, using your words and according to the playerbase then its the playerbase that need to get a fecking grip on reality. Its always easy to point out enrage timers and DPS races when your trophy hunting for buffs for your class.

 

From what you are stating, those classes that are [wrongly] perceived as being useless, such as a Concealment Operative's (although I beleive sustained damage could be better) just because they are behind Marauders by up to 5% need to be buffed level with them? Otherwise they dont get invited to raid because they are vastly inferior? Dont you see how that then creates yet more balance problems and class representation problems?

 

If an Operation is going to wipe on boss its not because there is a [perceived] useless, inferior DPS in the group. You guys need to get away from this mentality. A boss wipe is generally a result of many things not being executed efficiently and mistakes being made collectively by the group.

 

 

Nobody is penalized.

 

If you have a dps spot you bring the player, not the class if everything is equal.

 

That's not the contrast now. The contrast now is, bring the best dps and an operative if we have room.

 

Hybrid tax is the stupidest catch phrase in all of MMO gaming. Willingly punishing someone for a spec they don't play is how spiteful some people get.

Edited by GeoLager
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Thanks for reiterating the point of operatives being able to throw emergency heals, and generally bring helpful skills to a raid other than just pure DPS. I feel that it is an important aspect of the class that many players often overlook.

 

From what you are stating, those classes that are [wrongly] perceived as being useless, such as a Concealment Operative's (although I beleive sustained damage could be better).

 

With the current changes to the concealment tree, they did actually balance out the sustained damage I believe. The increased damage on backstab, combined with the longer cooldown; the decrease in energy cost to Laceration as well as a few other quality of life changes to Stim Boost and Shiv have enabled me to tweak my skill priority slightly and manage to maintain a constant stream of consistent damage, only needing to weave in a few rounds of blaster shots in between to maintain optimal energy regen. It may not be perfect yet, but I can appreciate what Bioware is trying to do and concealment is certainly more sustainable than it was pre 1.2.

 

Overall, with several hours of playing in flash points and beating on the training dummies though, I have found concealment to actually surpass the DPS of Lethality pretty consistently. I feel this would become even more apparent in fights where you often have to switch targets and run out of melee range. This being because Lethality takes longer to ramp up if you will, where as concealment has high initial burst damage, but at the same time if played correctly can maintain pretty consistent DPS as well.

 

 

Nobody is penalized.

 

If you have a dps spot you bring the player, not the class if everything is equal.

 

That's not the contrast now. The contrast now is, bring the best dps and an operative if we have room.

 

I am really not trying to be confrontational here, but this logic seems to be stemming from a player or guild that still actually has trouble dealing with enrage timers and DPS races. Which in all reality, the only reason that this is most likely happening is because like what Malanoth said - that your ops group in general is making to many mistakes and failing together as a team. People just like to point fingers and blame the 5% DPS decrease from one player in their raid when compared to another marauder, because generally people do not like to admit that everyone has room for improvement.

Edited by Crittlesticks
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The main point of all us operatives complaints is the fact that we ARE NOT within 5% of the new marauders.

 

your numbers point out this fact. reaching 1400 in the most "optimal" setting as concealment, and ~1250 as lethality in the same setting. I'm wondering what marauders are hitting with their new changes. If they are significantly higher, gearing won't change this fact. I think bioware is justifying our changes based on the fact that augments are now available, but having an augment doesn't solve key DPS/Utility issues.

 

Assuming equal gear, if a marauder, or, lets bring in a mercenary since there has been the mythical "hybrid tax" brought up into the conversation, is WAY above the operative in terms of dps, then what's the point of bringing us to a raid? What do we bring to the table.

If you say off healing, then your wrong, because Sorcs and Mercs can do that as well and have higher dps. They also bring utility(not including battle rez cause we can do it too). the sorc has a pull with a detaunt attached to it, the mercenaries have a stacking armor debuff they can put on a mob.

 

 

Also, WHERE THE HELL DO WE STORE ALL THESE KNIFES?!? *do /agent and you'll understand*

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Awesome, thanks for posting the numbers, cba to run a parser just to roof the cry baby idiots wrong, the more actual numbers I see the more it becomes clear the doomsayers for operative are wrong.

 

But do not put to much effort in, idiots can not be cured not even with the almost almighty power of math.

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The main point of all us operatives complaints is the fact that we ARE NOT within 5% of the new marauders.

 

your numbers point out this fact. reaching 1400 in the most "optimal" setting as concealment, and ~1250 as lethality in the same setting. I'm wondering what marauders are hitting with their new changes. If they are significantly higher, gearing won't change this fact. I think bioware is justifying our changes based on the fact that augments are now available, but having an augment doesn't solve key DPS/Utility issues.

 

Assuming equal gear, if a marauder, or, lets bring in a mercenary since there has been the mythical "hybrid tax" brought up into the conversation, is WAY above the operative in terms of dps, then what's the point of bringing us to a raid? What do we bring to the table.

If you say off healing, then your wrong, because Sorcs and Mercs can do that as well and have higher dps. They also bring utility(not including battle rez cause we can do it too). the sorc has a pull with a detaunt attached to it, the mercenaries have a stacking armor debuff they can put on a mob.

 

 

Also, WHERE THE HELL DO WE STORE ALL THESE KNIFES?!? *do /agent and you'll understand*

 

Sorcs and mercs also do damage from range.

 

Operatives do damage in melee and have no gap closer and require a positional direction, which compounds the reason to make their dps higher.

Edited by GeoLager
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Also, WHERE THE HELL DO WE STORE ALL THESE KNIFES?!? *do /agent and you'll understand*

 

I KNOW RIGHT?! I want to use two vibroknives :(

 

The main point of all us operatives complaints is the fact that we ARE NOT within 5% of the new marauders.

 

your numbers point out this fact. reaching 1400 in the most "optimal" setting as concealment, and ~1250 as lethality in the same setting. I'm wondering what marauders are hitting with their new changes. If they are significantly higher, gearing won't change this fact. I think bioware is justifying our changes based on the fact that augments are now available, but having an augment doesn't solve key DPS/Utility issues.

 

Assuming equal gear, if a marauder, or, lets bring in a mercenary since there has been the mythical "hybrid tax" brought up into the conversation, is WAY above the operative in terms of dps, then what's the point of bringing us to a raid? What do we bring to the table.

If you say off healing, then your wrong, because Sorcs and Mercs can do that as well and have higher dps. They also bring utility(not including battle rez cause we can do it too). the sorc has a pull with a detaunt attached to it, the mercenaries have a stacking armor debuff they can put on a mob.

 

I understand where your frustration is coming from, but 5% is not WAY behind another DPS class, and from the parsers that I have seen, when playing optimally does not put operatives even that far behind mercenaries. We also have not one, but two threat dumps (Cloaking Screen and Countermeasures). We also bring other things to the ops group, like a CC that doesn't initiate combat, and the ability to not CC not just humanoids but droids also for an extended length of time. We also can CC several mobs at once with flashbang. We also have a lower cooldown on our interrupt that sorcerers.

 

I am not arguing that they are not superior in some aspects, but people get to tunnel visioned on the things that their class cannot do, and not on what you can do.

 

 

Sorcs and mercs also do damage from range.

 

Operatives do damage in melee and have no gap closer and require a positional direction, which compounds the reason to make their dps higher.

 

Geo, nobody in this thread is arguing with you that Sorcs and Mercs can do damage from a range, and that they might have slightly higher DPS. The point you are mistaken about, or it may have just been a poor wording choice I am not sure; is that they are useless and there is no point in brining them to a ops.

Edited by Crittlesticks
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Geo, nobody in this thread is arguing with you that Sorcs and Mercs can do damage from a range, and that they might have slightly higher DPS. The point you are mistaken about, or it may have just been a poor wording choice I am not sure; is that they are useless and there is no point in brining them to a ops.

 

 

 

Wait, what?

 

Maybe you wrote that wrong, but you just said that sorcs and mercs are worthless to take to an op....yet operatives are below them and are therefore useful? That doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Not to mention sorcs have one of the higher and more sustainable dps specs. They are far from worthless.

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One thing I'm wondering about as people are talking about dummy DPS is how armor debuffs are going to function in a raid setting. As we've seen from the incredible amount of mathematics done in the Ulduar patch in WoW is that Armor Penetration has an exponential scale, not a linear scale. This leads me to believe that dummy DPS is still artificially low for Concealment OPs because of how Acid Blade will interact with things like Tracer Missile +5 stacks. The numbers for Marauder DPS as far as I've seen parsed at 1500+ DPS have always been the Annihilation spec, which doesn't have any ArP and is mostly from DoT damage which is unaffected by ArP.

 

Unless I'm missing something from all the other specs except for Arsenal Merc, Operatives have the highest ArP in the game, meaning in a raid setting with raid debuffs going their effective DPS contribution from raid debuffs is larger than other classes because of how higher levels of ArP affect other stat weights. Anyone have any experience with this in SWTOR?

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Wait, what?

 

Maybe you wrote that wrong, but you just said that sorcs and mercs are worthless to take to an op....yet operatives are below them and are therefore useful? That doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Not to mention sorcs have one of the higher and more sustainable dps specs. They are far from worthless.

 

oops, you are correct. That was a wording error on my part. What I meant for the last sentence to read was "Operatives are not useless and that there is no reason to exclude them from a raid for a ~5% dps increase from a sorcerer or marauder."

 

And all of these numbers and so on are all based on the assumption that each player is playing their class perfectly, which lets face it....most people do not.

 

 

One thing I'm wondering about as people are talking about dummy DPS is how armor debuffs are going to function in a raid setting. As we've seen from the incredible amount of mathematics done in the Ulduar patch in WoW is that Armor Penetration has an exponential scale, not a linear scale. This leads me to believe that dummy DPS is still artificially low for Concealment OPs because of how Acid Blade will interact with things like Tracer Missile +5 stacks. The numbers for Marauder DPS as far as I've seen parsed at 1500+ DPS have always been the Annihilation spec, which doesn't have any ArP and is mostly from DoT damage which is unaffected by ArP.

 

Unless I'm missing something from all the other specs except for Arsenal Merc, Operatives have the highest ArP in the game, meaning in a raid setting with raid debuffs going their effective DPS contribution from raid debuffs is larger than other classes because of how higher levels of ArP affect other stat weights. Anyone have any experience with this in SWTOR?

 

This is actually a really good point, and one I have been pondering for a while. Since acid blade does give you 30% armor penetration, when combining this with Juggernaut armor reduction stacks and tracer missile, I would assume my DPS would go up substantially from the 1400 dps it is currently as concealment.

Edited by Crittlesticks
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oops, you are correct. That was a wording error on my part. What I meant for the last sentence to read was "Operatives are not useless and that there is no reason to exclude them from a raid for a ~5% dps increase from a sorcerer or marauder."

 

And all of these numbers and so on are all based on the assumption that each player is playing their class perfectly, which lets face it....most people do not.

 

 

 

 

Dummy dps is dps in a vacuum.

 

Real dps is much different. Operatives are effectively almost 30% behind marauders and sorcs. Because in encounters you have to move, target switch, etc...something that makes operative dps a liability.

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