Why does everyone seem to ignore the 4 man premade that is on your team? I love how these threads devolve into "i'm always pitted against premades" yet you never ever got a premade on your side? I find that highly unlikely.

 

~Pugger 4life.

 

The premades on your side always suck. They're only unstoppable when they're on the other side.

 

As an aside it is true a lot of premade have essentailly a 100% observed win rate, because a lot of premades quit at the first sign of trouble, often before a game even begins. This means in the game where they did not quit, the odds are likely extremely stacked against you. In a game where you've a reasonable shot at beating them, the said premade would've already quit, so from your point of view you'd almost never beat those guys because you're not aware of the times they quit before the game even started.

Why does everyone seem to ignore the 4 man premade that is on your team? I love how these threads devolve into "i'm always pitted against premades" yet you never ever got a premade on your side? I find that highly unlikely.

 

Try doing something that supports your 4 man rather than trying to be the 'star' of the WZ. If that means you go watch the off node and call early and often so those 4 can coordinate together in the zerg, do that. If that means getting the ball at mid and passing it to the tank in the 4 man, do that.

 

So long as BW isn't purposely pitting 8 solo queue'ers against 2 four man's, there is nothing to see here and no reason for BW to even address this.

 

~Pugger 4life.

Exactly. How does pugs know if they have a premade or not. They don't. You can not simply go by guild tags because some guilds have 50 members and happen to get placed in the same wz. Is that a premade? Are the pugs asking everyone in that warzone if they are grouped or not. I'm pretty sure nobody does that.

Having followed this thread (and contributed many of the posts within) this argument is never going to be settled unless a change is made of some kind. I would say a majority have noted that some type of change NEEDS to happen. But the ultimate issue is not premades for the following reasons.

 

1) Coordination is a slight advantage at best. It's not a full team in voice comms, it's at most 4 people. Sure, some people try and exploit the system to queue together, but that is a MINISCULE minority. Stop saying ridiculous things like how you always face 8 man premades. That is a straight lie.

 

2) Many times there are extremely even games where you are completely unaware of premade groups being present on either side. People tend to believe there isn't one because it fits their argument or makes them feel better, but that's not always the case.

 

3) Skill level generally has a direct relationship to the amount of premading that is done. I know many players who are exceptional at this game who never run premades, but as the better PvP players tend to be in PvP guilds, they also tend to always have people to queue with. They aren't beating you because they're grouped, they're beating you because they're better. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will understand why a separate queue does not resolve the problem of imbalanced warzones, it merely prolongs queue times for everyone potentially.

 

Solution:

 

Stop matching good players against bad players. Everyone wants to think they're a good player and I've seen numerous posts from people who claim to be good because of x, y, or z and they support a separate queue. But you're just mad about being put on a team full of bads against a good team and you'll continue complaining in a solo queue when the other team ends up being better than your team and you get stomped. I know, I've thought the exact same thing before.

 

As long as the game is randomly matching players, you will never have even teams whether they are solo or mixed. The "premade advantage" is a myth in that they aren't significantly better for knowing each other and they aren't trying to be hardcore with class balance, etc. The real advantage is knowing you have 4 people on your team that don't suck, a luxury the other team does not get. Taking the grouping option away, however, only prevents an individual from improving his/her odds of winning, it doesn't change the fact that those four people could still end up on the same team, dominating the other side. I don't mean by queue syncing (although that would be easier than it is now), I just mean by pure luck one team might have much better players and 3-cap you the whole match.

 

The fix is to stop having unequal teams fighting a losing battle to have fun. Give everyone a hidden rating based on wins/losses to more accurately build teams on each side from the players available. The longer the queue lasts, the more imbalanced the queue is willing to allow the game to start at. So, if you are playing at 4am, you can still get a queue pop reasonably fast, but it may be a bit lopsided.

 

TL;DR 99% of the people in this thread are arguing for the same thing and 50% of them don't understand they are asking for a fix that doesn't solve their issue.

You're not. You assume solo players are bad. I would be curious to see where you land on the boards if you solo queue'd.

 

I don't assume ALL solo players are bad, but when half your team shows up in recruit gear and wonder why we got stomped... This is pretty consistent nowadays.. When I see certain names in a PuG, I know our shot to win increases exponentially, regardless who we play. It has nothing to do with us premading and everything to do with L2P and learn to pick the right class.... BW can fix one, but not the other, which is at the core of this tired azz debate....

 

Advocate that players need to become more skilled... Mentor them as to improvement possibilities in performance.... Hell I give away free blue 28 augments and kits when those 23K people show up as a hint hint nudge nudge, that they are doing themselves and their teammates a disservice by showing up like that... Until you fix that, none of this premade stuff matters...

 

The skill ceiling is so damn low, how much better could a premade be? Stop being bad and advocating for mediocrity...

Still, the whole healer being overpowered is so out of hand that it's not unusual to see 3 healers even on a PUG, so you can certainly at least make those evil premades suffer as well when you've 2 Operatives on your side. You won't necessarily win, but you'll sure be able to bore them out of their minds.

 

This ^ really illustrates the EXACT, LITERAL REASON solo players want a solo queue toggle: instead of "Just form your own it will be great", truth is - boring.

...

 

Truth.

 

I would support a matchmaking system similar to something like Halo's, where it looks at valor (imperfect, but better than nothing) and tries to match players against others of similar valor. In terms of premades, it would look at whoever has the highest valor of the group and act as though all the group had that same valor.

 

However, I just don't realistically seeing this as a solution. Our server populations are too small. The reason you continually run into the same groups in warzones? because there aren't thousands of others waiting in queue with you. So while this could help in theory, with the player base as small as it is, it wouldn't affect very much.

I couldn't agree more. I have no idea why premades feel entitled to play pug groups. Boggles the mind really. It is very much a team game, which is why teams should be facing teams. Isn't is obvious? Since it is a team based game why in the world are teams facing pugs? Ridiculous.

And just because someone points this out, so many premade players pouting about if they have to face other teams their queue times might get longer. They don't even know if the times would get longer, but they are already QQ Crying about it because they are scared they might have to face other teams!! Talk about bads pouting and not wanting to play a team game !n

And so many bad players that need to have voice chat and a healer and a tank and the OP classes on their team just so they can pvp. Talk about getting carried. Next they will want a wheelchair with rockets to carry them!

 

I love this post.

The skill ceiling is so damn low, how much better could a premade be? Stop being bad and advocating for mediocrity...

 

So what's your ranked rating and how do I verify? You're clearly one of the better players here. How do we know you're not one of these "bads"?

So what's your ranked rating and how do I verify? You're clearly one of the better players here. How do we know you're not one of these "bads"?

 

Because I don't dish out 100k damage in a full Voidstar as a DPS spec.

 

 

Yes, those types do exist.... And are probably the primary cause of poor WZ experiences....

Although the server population is always an issue with matchmaking, it's not like things would somehow get worse with matchmaking. If all you got is 8 bads on one side versus 8 superheroes on the other, of course any matchmaking system will eventually have to settle for that because there's no one else to match up, and that wouldn't be any worse than what it is today. I'd imagine any matchmaking system would have to be pretty leninent, like say wait for no more than 5 minutes trying to balance the teams after you've enough to start a game. Note that if the 8 bads and 8 superheroes are on the same side, it's actually pretty trivial to match them up correctly (4 of each type for a same faction match), and that alone should be an improvement compared to now.

 

Having some kind of assurance that matchmaking is in effect can lead to positive reinforcements, as if people believe the game is fair they'd be more likely to queue up, and it's always easier to have good matchmaking when more players are playing. There's literally no harm to try something like this, because the worst that can happen is just what we already have.

As an aside it is true a lot of premade have essentailly a 100% observed win rate, because a lot of premades quit at the first sign of trouble, often before a game even begins. This means in the game where they did not quit, the odds are likely extremely stacked against you. In a game where you've a reasonable shot at beating them, the said premade would've already quit, so from your point of view you'd almost never beat those guys because you're not aware of the times they quit before the game even started.

 

Proof in writing ^ that plent of premades are looking for pugfarms over the "challenge" they supposedly want. They're not fooling anybody, they want pugs in their queue because they gladly accept a hollow victory that means nothing, even at the expense of the total PVP population.

The premades on your side always suck. They're only unstoppable when they're on the other side.

 

As an aside it is true a lot of premade have essentailly a 100% observed win rate, because a lot of premades quit at the first sign of trouble, often before a game even begins. This means in the game where they did not quit, the odds are likely extremely stacked against you. In a game where you've a reasonable shot at beating them, the said premade would've already quit, so from your point of view you'd almost never beat those guys because you're not aware of the times they quit before the game even started.

 

Personally, I don't like them on my team even if they're great. If they're out there pugfarming and ruining the experience for everyone else, sometimes I'll get pissed enough to ruin the experience for them too. Next time I'm in their queue I might laugh my way to our own goal line and then pass it to the enemy team, or use the SAY channel to let the other team know, go ahead and cap that door. And the next one.

 

Because once your 4-man/double 4-man gets game-breaking, the only game that's left is to break their game too.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Comfterbilly

Proof in writing ^ that plent of premades are looking for pugfarms over the "challenge" they supposedly want. They're not fooling anybody, they want pugs in their queue because they gladly accept a hollow victory that means nothing, even at the expense of the total PVP population.

Dude, you should just uninstall. Any post you have made nullifies any reasonable argument for a split.

 

 

 

If you cant play a game for the pure enjoyment of playing a GAME, then go sell deathsticks or something....

Edited June 4, 2013 by L-RANDLE

Proof in writing ^ that plent of premades are looking for pugfarms over the "challenge" they supposedly want. They're not fooling anybody, they want pugs in their queue because they gladly accept a hollow victory that means nothing, even at the expense of the total PVP population.

 

I'm sorry but that is not just premades. You are only reading the stuff you want to read and quoting them. There is no actual proof who leaves more. If pugs can give facts instead of assumptions then maybe BW will care. But all I see is "WE CAN'T WIN BECAUSE OF PREMADES. PLEASE GIVE ME MY OWN QUEUE BECAUSE I CAN'T WIN." When BW finally listens pugs are then going to say "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY BAD PEOPLE IN THIS GAME PLEASE MAKE A MATCHMAKING SYSTEM FOR REGS." Everybody who complains about winning please understand that this is regular RANDOM warzones. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. I usually play with premades so I atleast know that half the team are going to be good players.

But the root cause of stompings is not because of a premade.... It's class balance and bads......

bads and premades are the same issue though. good players don't grp with bads. thus, the entire WZ is tilted from the start. not all matches.

Lets just imagine for a moment that there was a solo q only. I can tell the matches when it's a full pug vs pug now, those are the one's where everyone caps in CW but neither team can actually hold a node because both side have split their team in three different directions. Those are the one's in VS when the attacking team made record time but then you beat their time when you were on offense. Those are the huttballs where no one (on either team) is EVER in front of the ball carrier for a pass etc and so on and on and on. I don't know about you guys but that's just as painful for me as getting farmed by a super-q. Edited June 4, 2013 by Ridickilis

Personally, I don't like them on my team even if they're great. If they're out there pugfarming and ruining the experience for everyone else, sometimes I'll get pissed enough to ruin the experience for them too. Next time I'm in their queue I might laugh my way to our own goal line and then pass it to the enemy team, or use the SAY channel to let the other team know, go ahead and cap that door. And the next one.

 

Because once your 4-man/double 4-man gets game-breaking, the only game that's left is to break their game too.

 

Wow I just don't know what to say! You do know that you also have pugs on your team and you are ruining for them also. That is just being hypocrite. There are also pugs on the other team who probably don't want to win the game like that. Don't forget the fact that the other team might have premades and you are letting them win. Nice LOGIC my friend. Purely genius IMO.

Edited June 4, 2013 by sirullrich

bads and premades are the same issue though. good players don't grp with bads. thus, the entire WZ is tilted from the start. not all matches.

I accept that I am allowing the possibility that bads could be on my team when I solo. Most of the time, I could care less about the outcome... Even if we are getting stomped, entertainment should be based on playing the game itself. Conversely, if you want competitive matches you should want the bads to get better, not eliminate the competition...

I don't assume ALL solo players are bad, but when half your team shows up in recruit gear and wonder why we got stomped... This is pretty consistent nowadays.. When I see certain names in a PuG, I know our shot to win increases exponentially, regardless who we play. It has nothing to do with us premading and everything to do with L2P and learn to pick the right class.... BW can fix one, but not the other, which is at the core of this tired azz debate....

 

Advocate that players need to become more skilled... Mentor them as to improvement possibilities in performance.... Hell I give away free blue 28 augments and kits when those 23K people show up as a hint hint nudge nudge, that they are doing themselves and their teammates a disservice by showing up like that... Until you fix that, none of this premade stuff matters...

 

The skill ceiling is so damn low, how much better could a premade be? Stop being bad and advocating for mediocrity...

 

You do realize there is no longer any recruit gear right? hasnt been any since the Xpack, sooooo..... are you for real or are you just trying to enrage the posters here by supporting premades stomping on pugs for smiles and grins?

 

Been alot of people (MEANING) Paying customers that wants cross server ques and solo ques. there is no reason to support steam rolling pugs.

 

so here is my question....

 

if there was a cross server que system, AND your rated ques were very short (MEANING) 3 min or less time for a rated que, would you still scoff at seperating the pugs from the premades? if so then why? if the que was short why wouldnt you want to go up against a premade group if the time was realy short?

 

Why wouldnt you support new players / casual pvpers to go up against moslty not all but moslty other ungeared players with the purpose of getting geared? dont they deserve to get their gear in a timely manor, instead of being held back by being steam rolled and discouraged to the point they quit?

 

but that is the real point isnt it? customers ARE being discouraged by a bad experiance in WZ's and its due to a few issues and one of them is premades, and a game with out customers is no game at all. So all of the ranting and raving against seperating the two is destructive to the game. We need a fix to this and if it does not come soon who knows. My que times on Ebon Hawk are through the roof now and all this waiting because BW doesnt want cross server ques is only harming themselves. I'll draw the line at 15 min per pop and play this game as a single player game till the server shuts down / forced xfer.

Lets just imagine for a moment that there was a solo q only. I can tell the matches where is a full pug vs pug now, those are the one's where everyone caps in CW but neither team can actually hold a node because both side have split their team in three different directions. I don't know about you guys but that's just as painful for me as getting farmed by a super-q.

 

I played a huttball match that was PUG vs PUG where nobody scored. Beyond that, nobody even tried to score, apart from myself (as a sniper!). If the other team had a premade they would have easily won in just a few minutes. Then I'm sure someone on the losing team would come and add his QQ to this thread.

Proof in writing ^ that plent of premades are looking for pugfarms over the "challenge" they supposedly want. They're not fooling anybody, they want pugs in their queue because they gladly accept a hollow victory that means nothing, even at the expense of the total PVP population.

 

Allow me to introduce you to my friend. His name is sarcasm. He tends to hang out in posts like the one you are quoting.

I accept that I am allowing the possibility that bads could be on my team when I solo. Most of the time, I could care less about the outcome... Even if we are getting stomped, entertainment should be based on playing the game itself. Conversely, if you want competitive matches you should want the bads to get better, not eliminate the competition...

 

yeah. that's not going to happen if the bads are on the outside looking in. it's not going to happen if the bads are stuck grping with other bads. it's definitely not going to happen in a roflstomp/spawn camp match. and frankly, some ppl's ceiling is just lower than others.

 

I don't pretend there's an easy solution, and I try not to poke my head in this thread very much, but the whole "you can grp too" and "l2p" stuff does get on my nerves.

You do realize there is no longer any recruit gear right? hasnt been any since the Xpack, sooooo..... are you for real or are you just trying to enrage the posters here by supporting premades stomping on pugs for smiles and grins?

 

Been alot of people (MEANING) Paying customers that wants cross server ques and solo ques. there is no reason to support steam rolling pugs.

 

so here is my question....

 

if there was a cross server que system, AND your rated ques were very short (MEANING) 3 min or less time for a rated que, would you still scoff at seperating the pugs from the premades? if so then why? if the que was short why wouldnt you want to go up against a premade group if the time was realy short?

 

Why wouldnt you support new players / casual pvpers to go up against moslty not all but moslty other ungeared players with the purpose of getting geared? dont they deserve to get their gear in a timely manor, instead of being held back by being steam rolled and discouraged to the point they quit?

 

but that is the real point isnt it? customers ARE being discouraged by a bad experiance in WZ's and its due to a few issues and one of them is premades, and a game with out customers is no game at all. So all of the ranting and raving against seperating the two is destructive to the game. We need a fix to this and if it does not come soon who knows. My que times on Ebon Hawk are through the roof now and all this waiting because BW doesnt want cross server ques is only harming themselves. I'll draw the line at 15 min per pop and play this game as a single player game till the server shuts down / forced xfer.

 

Ebon hawk is an RP server so I can understand the whole being discouraged, but on a PVP server we joined it to PVP.

In terms of having fun, I'd say premades tend to win just because the guys who premade tend to have a lower threshold of what's defined as 'fun'. If you've the ability to convince yourself that it's never you fault that you lost the game, it's far easier to have fun than someone who cannot do this. Premades tend to attract people who think like that.

You do realize there is no longer any recruit gear right? hasnt been any since the Xpack, sooooo..... are you for real or are you just trying to enrage the posters here by supporting premades stomping on pugs for smiles and grins?

 

Been alot of people (MEANING) Paying customers that wants cross server ques and solo ques. there is no reason to support steam rolling pugs.

 

so here is my question....

 

if there was a cross server que system, AND your rated ques were very short (MEANING) 3 min or less time for a rated que, would you still scoff at seperating the pugs from the premades? if so then why? if the que was short why wouldnt you want to go up against a premade group if the time was realy short?

 

Why wouldnt you support new players / casual pvpers to go up against moslty not all but moslty other ungeared players with the purpose of getting geared? dont they deserve to get their gear in a timely manor, instead of being held back by being steam rolled and discouraged to the point they quit?

 

but that is the real point isnt it? customers ARE being discouraged by a bad experiance in WZ's and its due to a fe issues and one of them is premades, and a game with out customers is no game at all. So all of the ranting and raving against seperating the two is destructive to the game. We need a fix to this and if it does not come soon who knows. My que times on Ebon Hawk are through the roof now and all this waiting because BW doesnt want cross server ques is only harming themselves. I'll draw the line at 15 min per pop and play this game as a single player game till the server shuts down / forced xfer.

I would have no problem cross server, but the devs already said it highly unlikely.... So understand, we are pretty much stuck with what we have....

 

 

Also if they eliminated group requirements to ranked, then you got a deal.

 

I give no quarter to new/casual players getting "discouraged" and quitting... You know what I did when I was getting stomped? I read my azz off about my class and spec. I talked to guildies about what they were doing. I read the guides and builds on the forums. I accumulated money and gear so I could BE on equal footing with my counterparts. I never got discouraged, because I had a desire to be better at this game... So if they give up and quit so be it.. I rather have dedicated people on my team who actually cares about performance...