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Am I the only one that thinks Force Camoflage makes no sense for a Marauder?


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As the title suggests, there's just something about Force Camouflage that has always seem to be to be totally not in keeping with what a Marauder is, just a ball of destruction who care's more about killing his enemies than living to a ripe old age.

 

I don't deny it's value. It's an excellent escape feature potentially. Sometimes it's a time saver so you don't have to fight every last damn mob. Helps with taking damage from elemental factors [Lava, Fire, poison gas ect.].

 

The thing is even in those regards, at 4 seconds duration, a lot of the time, it's just not long enough to get you far enough away that you won't just end up being seen when those 4 seconds are up.

 

As a DCD in combat it is virtually useless if you want to be fighting. You cannot use it if your fighting, the second you attack all it's effects are lost, even if you were using it to take less damage from fire .i.e. if you attack anything, it won't continue to reduce the damage from the fire you are taking even though it wasn't the 'fire' you attacked. It's not even a threat drop, it's a threat reduction. If you use it, and than attack, you won't lose agro in most cases, you have to stop attacking after it's use for a second or two ish until you do in fact lose agro which obviuously is a DPS loss. [if sometimes necessary].

 

It just doesn't seem to have any basis for it's form, even though it's effects can be useful. Why would something that is all about combat, destruction, damage, and striking fear in the hearts of all would dare oppose the will of the mighty Sith Empire, have a sneaky thingy?

 

My thought is that the effects that we have come to rely on Force Camo for could be manifested in some other manner. Even if it was something as simple as refining it in story form. Like, they are not actually turning invisible, they are using a force power that briefly blinds perhaps by intensifying the light level in a lightsaber to make something akin to the flashbang CC of Operatives, those under it's effects so that the mara can not be seen by them during the duration. Perhaps you can make a separate ability that would help with damage reduction of environmental effects.

 

Stealth of the sort that literally turns you invisible should be the sole purview of stealth classes. Marauders are frontal, in your face fighters, they revel in combat, the are the purest form of destruction that manifests inside an individual through the power of the Dark Side of the Force. They are the quintessential Warrior.

 

I just can't reason this sneaky thing.

 

I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this of course, I recognize that it has always been a part of the class, but there is a precedent where something was removed that didn't really make sense for the class, droid stun. We lost that when 5.0 dropped. It just didn't make sense why a Marauder would have that kind of specialized skill. Difference being thought in that case, we just lost, we were given something else to take it's place, nor am I proposing that Force Camo be removed and nothing take it's place. We need the escape for PVP it would hurt the class considerably with it even more so because we don't have any self heals, so losing the escape to boot would be disastrous for the class. I'm merely proposing a redefining of how it's effects are delivered.

 

I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of others on the subject, mostly just for curiosity sake.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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It makes sense as an alternative means of approach for targets that you cannot leap to (or a secondary gap closer if leap is on cooldown, especially with the purge effect added)

 

In PVE it also serves as an agro dump which is a fairly common feature for a pure dps class that has spikey damage surges sometimes.

 

So, while its a wonky fit thematically, mechanically it fits the dps toolbox well enough to me.

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Actually it's an amazing CD in pve, and isn't to be underestimated. It's something to be used when a predictable large hit or knockback/knockdown is incoming. In fact, when used properly in several situations little to no uptime is lost, as you pop camo the moment the hit is going out, and right after start attacking again. Here are a few examples of its use.

 

Revan HM-HK grenades (to not be knocked over and reduce damage taken); pull in (to stay in melee range of core to increase uptime)

 

Titan 6- Reduce damage from huge grenade

 

Brontes NiM-eat an orb at low stacks to get back on the boss quicker

 

TfB NiM-eat a tentacle slam, increasing uptime

 

There are many, many more examples, but i can't be bothered to list all of them.

 

As far as the ability fitting the class, you can argue the warrior users it to take big damage, so he can continue beating down the enemy.

Edited by AndoEyrune
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Actually it's an amazing CD in pve, and isn't to be underestimated. It's something to be used when a predictable large hit or knockback/knockdown is incoming. In fact, when used properly in several situations little to no uptime is lost, as you pop camo the moment the hit is going out, and right after start attacking again. Here are a few examples of its use.

 

Revan HM-HK grenades (to not be knocked over and reduce damage taken); pull in (to stay in melee range of core to increase uptime)

 

Titan 6- Reduce damage from huge grenade

 

Brontes NiM-eat an orb at low stacks to get back on the boss quicker

 

TfB NiM-eat a tentacle slam, increasing uptime

 

There are many, many more examples, but i can't be bothered to list all of them.

 

As far as the ability fitting the class, you can argue the warrior users it to take big damage, so he can continue beating down the enemy.

 

My issue isn't at all with it's purpose really, I see the value in it, I just don't find it's design appropriate. There are ways of creating escapes without it being invisibility. IMO it's a completely useless combat DCD [it's works well for environmental damage and the like, cleaves, etc]. You can't use it to mitigate damage if you are going to be fighting.

 

But it isn't a threat drop, it's a threat reduction. It will not cause you to loose all threat, it will reduce current threat by half. It you pull agro from a Boss and use it, most of the time it's still going to attack you, you have to cease all attacks after you use it until threat is lost, but it isn't instant in most cases. So not a very good threat drop.

 

I just don't think the manner in which they made it's effects apply is fitting for Marauders, but, that's just my opinion, was just curious how others felt on that score.

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The only thing that doesn't make sense about Force Camoflauge is Expunging Camoflauge's "remove all cleansible effects", does not even remotely resemble this description.

 

Agreed, that makes very little sense and I hadn't even given that aspect to thought in my original post. Good point.

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In theory I agree, but in a game like SWTOR, a melee fighting class like Sentinels and Marauders needs tools that make them more forgiving to play - since even ranged classes have a good amount of defensive utility. So a versatile disengage/reengage tool like FC is needed to make the class enjoyable in a PvP setting.

 

So in practice, I think FC does what it needs to do really well. Making changing it based on your reasons (which I understand) undesirable.

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In theory I agree, but in a game like SWTOR, a melee fighting class like Sentinels and Marauders needs tools that make them more forgiving to play - since even ranged classes have a good amount of defensive utility. So a versatile disengage/reengage tool like FC is needed to make the class enjoyable in a PvP setting.

 

So in practice, I think FC does what it needs to do really well. Making changing it based on your reasons (which I understand) undesirable.

 

You make a good point. In the scope of things it's no biggie.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I feel like there's a bit too much RP in this post.

But nonetheless i'm going to of course disagree with you. Force camo works perfectly in so many different situations. While active it's not often that you're worried about dishing out damage, so I don't see what you're coming at about that. Even though i've countless times ended my stealth prematurely due to only using it defensively to soak up damage or just drop target for a brief moment to gain an edge.

From an arena standpoint I don't really like the whole cloak out idea (running away to reset combat), but it's there and a option you should take. But as a whole to fix that, it'd probably require bonking Stealth classes actual stealth outs and I don't think that's okay for balance.

 

However in comparison just because it's on my mind, current state of sniper and their utilities are kind of nuts. I feel like we'd need a heal on our cloak of pain and a beefed up undying rage that heals to compare to the healing utilities they have, not to mention heal roll, give us mad dash heal with purge. :^]

Don't take that seriously though.

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As the title suggests, there's just something about Force Camouflage that has always seem to be to be totally not in keeping with what a Marauder is, just a ball of destruction who care's more about killing his enemies than living to a ripe old age.

 

I think Force Camo is a nod to KotOR. Sentinels were essentially the stealth class in that game.

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Apologies in advance if this is going off topic.

 

As a Sentinel main, I always have mixed feeling for Force Camo. It is designed to be both a dcd and aggro drop(or reduction) with a cleanse if utility is taken.

 

My problem with it is the following: in PVE, there is a big hit incoming. Camo has a 45 sec cd and offers nice dr. But, if I flush my aggro on cd like a smart dps, then I can't use it. If I use it, I can't lessen my aggro. Not to mention that if I want to use for the dr, it has to be timed so perfectly that it doesn't get wasted by my attack disabling it.

 

Or maybe my concerns are just a l2p issue?

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Apologies in advance if this is going off topic.

 

As a Sentinel main, I always have mixed feeling for Force Camo. It is designed to be both a dcd and aggro drop(or reduction) with a cleanse if utility is taken.

 

My problem with it is the following: in PVE, there is a big hit incoming. Camo has a 45 sec cd and offers nice dr. But, if I flush my aggro on cd like a smart dps, then I can't use it. If I use it, I can't lessen my aggro. Not to mention that if I want to use for the dr, it has to be timed so perfectly that it doesn't get wasted by my attack disabling it.

 

Or maybe my concerns are just a l2p issue?

 

i understand where your coming from, but if i can give u my feedback, its if u know your tanks well, and they can hold agroo nice, u prolly wont have to think much of dropping agroo - at least thats what i do.by any means im not expert, but try not to use camo so much at start, and see if u rip or not the agroo. then work with your tanks how to fix it.

 

virtually, if u have 2 tanks, when boss fight starts, if both tanks use their taunts available u will have 6*6secs of boss not coming to you.

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As a Sentinel main, I always have mixed feeling for Force Camo. It is designed to be both a dcd and aggro drop(or reduction) with a cleanse if utility is taken.

 

My problem with it is the following: in PVE, there is a big hit incoming. Camo has a 45 sec cd and offers nice dr. But, if I flush my aggro on cd like a smart dps, then I can't use it. If I use it, I can't lessen my aggro. Not to mention that if I want to use for the dr, it has to be timed so perfectly that it doesn't get wasted by my attack disabling it.

First of all, your tanks are responsible that the boss will focus them. If they run their normal taunt rotation (taunt + threatening scream + taunt), there's a 18s window in which the boss won't focus anyone else.

 

But even if you think you have to use Force Camouflage to lower your threat, that's typically needed only once per fight. In other words, the skill can be used as a normal DCD later during the fight.

_________

 

And although I had this discussion with WayOfTheWarriorx already, let me repeat my point of view.

 

Ths skill has a varable length of up to 6s (thanks to Phantom - a masterful utility). And the main advantage of the skill is it's versatility. I.e. unlike other DCDs that have a narrow focus, it can be used in many different ways.

 

F.e. you can use it in PvP to block some damage spikes (f.e. a Sniper's Ambush, etc.) and it can even be a better lifesaver than Undying Rage thanks to the invisibility. An Undying Rage can be answered by a simple 4s root, stun or push/pull, something that can't happen with Force Camouflage. And thanks to the 4~6s speed boost, there is enough time to get out of the 30m range or to use it as a gap closer against Snipers or other ranged classes. I've even seen some Marauders who used Force Camouflage to tap an objective during a chaotic situation.

 

In PvE, it's basically a powerful DCD against any foreseeable damage (getting out of a Blaster's Rain of Bombs, Firebrand & Stormcaller bombs, Brontes orbs, etc.) And the speed boost can be used to lower the downtime in a fight against Operator IX, Dash'roode, etc.

_________

 

But let's get to the original question:

 

Does it make sense flavorwise? - IMO Not that much, but it depends on other aspects!

 

The biggest problem is that there are many things in SWTOR that don't really make sense. So it's hard to limit it down to a single skill. In my opinion, even the overall concepts of Shadows, Marauders and Juggernauts aren't that great to begin with. IMO, it makes no sense that Assassins and Shadows are connected to Sages/Sorcerers.

 

Let's start with the stories. It would have made more sense, if the protective guardians would have shared the healing & negotiation heavy storyline of a Sage and if the Shadows would have shared the destruction & doomsday weapon storyline of a Sentinel.

 

Likewise, it would have made more sense if Assassins would have had the storyline centered around a 'spy network', whereas Juggernauts should have had the story around the controversy/dualism between brawn and brain, i.e. Khem Val and Zash.

 

With this change, there would have been a much better distinction between all four adv. classes. For the Juggernaut/Sorcerer constellation, it would have been active rage vs. insidiousness & madness. On the light side, it would have been active guarding/protection vs. cautiousness & responsiveness. And for the Assassin/Marauder and Shadow/Sentinel constellation, it would have been stealth & precision vs. speed & reflexes.

 

But not only that, even the weapon limitations would have made more sense. Single blade combat on one side, either either dual or double-bladed weapons on the other. And without a connection to Sages/Sorcerers, Shadows/Assassins could have had a focus on close-range saber combat rather than on levitating rocks or psychokinetic stuff.

 

And that brings me back to Force Camouflage:

 

With such a class constellation, this skill would have had a completely different meaning. And most likely, it would have been a perfect match for Assassins.

 

For Sentinels & Marauders, it would have made way more sense to get Saber Ward, Saber Reflect. & Blade Turning rather than a Cloak of Pain, Force Camouflage & Undying Rage.

 

Sentinels / Marauders are the class that thrives for an open battle and is trained well for it. So it should have the best defenses against melee/ranged attacks, but should have a weakness against 'magic', i.e. weakening / influencing force powers, poisons, etc.

 

For the Guardian / Sage constellation, we would have had:

 

Blade Storm vs. Disturbance

Force Sweep vs. Forcequake

Force Pull vs. Force Wave

Dispatch vs. Project

Guard vs Revival

Guardian Leap vs. Rescue

Guarded by the Force vs. Force Barrier

Force Potency vs Force Mend

Warding Call vs. Force Armor

Challenging Call vs Mass Mind Control

Resilence vs. Mental Defense & Pacify

Awe vs Mind Maze and/or Force Lift

 

For the Shadow / Sentinel constellation, we would have had:

 

Shadow Strike vs. Zealous Strike

Spinning Strike vs. Blade Barrage

Force Camouflage vs. Saber Reflect

Shadow Stride vs. Force Leap

Phase Walk vs. Blade Blitz & Zealous Leap

Force Cloak vs. Battle Readiness

Precision vs. Mental Alacrity

(Double) Saber Throw vs. Twin Saber Throw

 

But that's just a mind game and will never ever happen.

 

On a direct skill-based analysis, there's simply no other skill that would give the Marauder the same flexibility as a Force Camouflage. You want to give every class a anti-gank skill and you want to give 'squishier' classes at least one Escape, no matter if their class trope is a 'glass cannon' or not. Most fights aren't about fair & equal conditions for both sides. So to give players a chance to survive a unfavorable fight, there has to be at least one skill that can get them to safety.

 

So switching Force Camouflage with either Resilence or Saber Reflect won't work that well. The former means you'd have to remove other CC immunities and adjust Operatives, and the latter means you would have to give Juggernauts the Cloak of Pain reflection as well as other benefits.

 

So the best chances might be to introduce a utility that keeps the benefits of a Force Camouflage up for like 2s after the invisibility ends (a bit like the Sniper's Hold the Ground utility). Maybe at the cost of the +2s duration utility or the 75% force/tech DR via Obfuscate. That would shift the focus a bit more on combat, without removing the versatility of the skill and without affecting anything else.

Edited by realleaftea
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  • 4 weeks later...
l

o

l

 

You have an issue sir?

 

I mean I am a nub at this game, so do try to keep any anal retentive nerd snideness to yourself and inform me where I'm wrong if needed.

 

L

O

L

Yeah, not constructive and is why most nubs like myself don't do group stuff and hence the game dies.

Edited by orangenee
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As a Combat Sentinel, I feel like I have an immense pile of defensive cooldowns at my dispoal. It's very hard to kill a good Marauder / Sentinel if they time things correctly. Your pacify utility at the bottom makes you take 75% less damage from Force / Tech (most damage) as well as making your enemy less accurate. It's pretty strong. Play around with different stuff and I assure you, you will find that Marauder/Sentinel is not a weak class. It just works better in groups.
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I main Annihilation Mara and find force camouflage useful in both pvp and pve. The utility Hidden Savagery gives some damage bonus to melee attacks after accumulating 6 stacks. I saw that making difference in HM ops fights if used in combination with bleed attacks. Further, I found it useful in FPs, with that temporary stealth can help pass some mob groups -- a bit more trivial, but useful nonetheless.

 

In PvP, it really depends on the map and situation. I saw players making very poor use of it (e.g. popping them while they are in my LoS and uncloak and force jump) and players making better use of it. I think any form of stealth - temporary or permanent - is advantageous, so FC retains its usefulness :)

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Actually it's an amazing CD in pve, and isn't to be underestimated. It's something to be used when a predictable large hit or knockback/knockdown is incoming. In fact, when used properly in several situations little to no uptime is lost, as you pop camo the moment the hit is going out, and right after start attacking again. Here are a few examples of its use.

 

Revan HM-HK grenades (to not be knocked over and reduce damage taken); pull in (to stay in melee range of core to increase uptime)

 

Titan 6- Reduce damage from huge grenade

 

Brontes NiM-eat an orb at low stacks to get back on the boss quicker

 

TfB NiM-eat a tentacle slam, increasing uptime

 

There are many, many more examples, but i can't be bothered to list all of them.

 

As far as the ability fitting the class, you can argue the warrior users it to take big damage, so he can continue beating down the enemy.

 

he's using an rp basis for his argument. facts about its usefulness in pve won't work.

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