Would you say a 6/4 is good for PVE as well?

And am I missing something with surge? I have 432 surge and companion, but only got 72.06% surge.

Would you say a 6/4 is good for PVE as well?

 

And am I missing something with surge? I have 432 surge and companion, but only got 72.06% surge.

Great catch. I checked on the PTS and you are totally right; something is wrong with the equations in the last post. After a little bit of number crunching, I figured out what the problem is and will be updating everything in the past post accordingly. It will definitely change the math:

OLD EQUATION

Surge: 50+30(1-(1-(.01/.3))^(Surge/55/.11))

NEW EQUATION

Surge: 50+30(1-(1-(.01/.3))^(Surge/55/.22))

Notice the change from .11 to .22. I double checked to make sure and this appears to be the right equation. I plugged in values in my equation and saw what they were before confirming them on the PTS. Everything seems to add up. I will update this later tonight.

Again, great catch.

Would you say a 6/4 is good for PVE as well?

Before I crunch through that, I know that PvE players need some baseline of Accuracy. Accuracy is a competitor with both Surge and Alacrity, so how much would you say you need? Is 109% with talents/companion buffs sufficient?

Before I crunch through that, I know that PvE players need some baseline of Accuracy. Accuracy is a competitor with both Surge and Alacrity, so how much would you say you need? Is 109% with talents/companion buffs sufficient?

I've heard mixed opinions. Some say the talent and companion alone are good enough because tech is 8% accuracy and we can get 4% boost from talents. Others say still go for it. So not sure.

I tend to not run accuracy, take the 4%, and settle with having a 4% miss chance, but waiting for more hard numbers before I decide.

I've heard mixed opinions. Some say the talent and companion alone are good enough because tech is 8% accuracy and we can get 4% boost from talents. Others say still go for it. So not sure.

 

I tend to not run accuracy, take the 4%, and settle with having a 4% miss chance, but waiting for more hard numbers before I decide.

If your basic attack misses, it's not a big deal. But you really don't want your Backblast / Backstab to miss. That's a huge DPS drop, because in this case you lose Flechette Round / Acid Blade as well.

So for PvE - 110% accuracy.

Great catch. I checked on the PTS and you are totally right; something is wrong with the equations in the last post. After a little bit of number crunching, I figured out what the problem is and will be updating everything in the past post accordingly. It will definitely change the math:

 

OLD EQUATION

Surge: 50+30(1-(1-(.01/.3))^(Surge/55/.11))

 

NEW EQUATION

Surge: 50+30(1-(1-(.01/.3))^(Surge/55/.22))

 

Notice the change from .11 to .22. I double checked to make sure and this appears to be the right equation. I plugged in values in my equation and saw what they were before confirming them on the PTS. Everything seems to add up. I will update this later tonight.

 

Again, great catch.

There's a list of most of the updated equations here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=601726

edit: I corrected expertise mitigation and crit here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5904122&postcount=50

If your basic attack misses, it's not a big deal. But you really don't want your Backblast / Backstab to miss. That's a huge DPS drop, because in this case you lose Flechette Round / Acid Blade as well.

 

So for PvE - 110% accuracy.

Backblast/Backstab is tech though, so its what, 6% or 8% resist chance? One of our talents (not sure Smuggler name) gives up +3% so thats a 3-5% (forget which) resist chance. Add in 1% from companion and you got a 2-4% resist chance.

Backblast/Backstab is tech though, so its what, 6% or 8% resist chance? One of our talents (not sure Smuggler name) gives up +3% so thats a 3-5% (forget which) resist chance. Add in 1% from companion and you got a 2-4% resist chance.

Had to reinstall the PTS because of some technical complications, but once I take a look at the PvE gear and its relevant stats I will have a definitive answer on the Accuracy/Surge/Alacrity question.

So it sounds like PvE scrappers are only going to need 104% tech accuracy from gear. Is that right?

Had to reinstall the PTS because of some technical complications, but once I take a look at the PvE gear and its relevant stats I will have a definitive answer on the Accuracy/Surge/Alacrity question.

 

So it sounds like PvE scrappers are only going to need 104% tech accuracy from gear. Is that right?

3% from the talent +1% for companions. I think its 8% resist chance so 104% from gear. IF we assume that the accuracy drop of only 4% outweighs the stat gain. Which is what I wish to know.

3% from the talent +1% for companions. I think its 8% resist chance so 104% from gear. IF we assume that the accuracy drop of only 4% outweighs the stat gain. Which is what I wish to know.

Finally got around to running this. I was actually somewhat surprised at the results.

Accuracy/Surge/Alacrity are all on the same Enhancement, which makes the test a lot easier than if they were spread around. I assumed a base accuracy of 104% and a base crit of 35%. Surge, Alacrity, and Accuracy were all variable depending on the configuration of gear. I only looked at Tech damage values. To factor in Accuracy, I multiplied the final expected damage value by (1-ResistChance) to reflect the small chance that a target resists the attack. For example, Backblast had an expected value of around 4200 in the simulation. But factoring if we factored in a base accuracy of just 104% against a boss with 8% resistance, then 4% of our attacks would get resisted. That modifies the expected value to 4200*.96 = 4032.

(NOTE: The all assumes that the boss base resistance is 8%. If it is actually 6% that would change everything. But it's an easy fix if I got that value wrong)

So with that in mind, I tested out the following configurations of Accuracy/Surge/Alacrity

1 Accuracy Enhancement + (9/0 --> 0/9 Surge/Alacrity)

2 Accuracy Enhancements + (8/0 --> 0/8 Surge/Alacrity)

3 Accuracy Enhancements + (7/0 --> 0/7 Surge/Alacrity)

4 Accuracy Enhancements + (6/0 --> 0/6 Surge/Alacrity)

I computed DPS values taking into account the increased crit damage from Surge, the decreased GCD + Energy Regen from Alacrity, and the resist chance reduction from Accuracy.

Surprisingly, the highest DPS value was:

4 Accuracy Enhancements (Accuracy Rating 316 --> 108% Accuracy)

3 Surge Enhancements (Surge Rating 180 --> 61.88% Surge)

3 Alacrity Enhancements (Alacrity Rating 180 --> 2.55% GCD Reduction)

In my simulation, this configuration led to DPS values that were only 4 or so points higher than a configuration with 3 Accuracy, 3 Surge, and 4 Alacrity Enhancements, which was itself only 1 DPS more than a 3 Accuracy, 4 Surge, and 3 Alacrity gearing.

Ultimately, It turns out that the small 1-4% chance to resist an attack has a huge impact on damage over the long run (any PvE player probably knew this, but it came as a bit of a surprise to me as a pure PvP guy). If you don't maximize accuracy, even that 1% reduction to overall damage is not outweighed by any comparable increases in Surge and/or Alacrity. Again, this assumes a base boss resistance of 8%, so with our base 104% accuracy that amounts to an effective base resistance of 4%.

Let me know if you have any questions about the process or the numbers.

1) If you're PvE and fighting bosses, agree that you probably want to cap accuracy. Not a concern for PvP to the best of my knowledge.

I think you may be too optimistic in your crit chance, which will affect surge's value. In two pieces of Conqueror and the rest Partisan on PTS, (think EWH and WH for 2.0) my crit chance is about 22%. Maybe the PvE stuff will give more - but it would have to be ridiculously more to take crit chance back up to 1.7 levels. Crit stat really has been gutted, and the crit you get from main stat reduced too.

Alacrity and Surge are in competition; Surge is better at zero but still has a pretty steep decline in usefulness, so you'll probably want to start with Surge but switch over to Alacrity pretty soon.

2) Worth noting: the main-stat budget on mods seems to have been increased in 2.0. So where before it made sense to get the low-End/low-Cunning/high-secondary-stat mods, it may now be better to go low-End/high-Cunning/low-secondary-stat .

3) Crit nerf again. This really can't be understated. I was playing with some numbers, and all else being equal it would make no sense for my PTS character to take any Crit at all until I had (Power+Tech Power) up past 5000 somewhere. That's so extreme it makes me wonder whether Bioware really have kept everything else equal. Hence...

Our Ranged abilities are trivial; we have no Melee or Force abilities at all. The base average damage from Tech abilities boils down to:

(coefficient * bonus damage) + ((StandardHealthMin + StandardHealthMax)/2 * StandardHealth)

coefficient, StandardHealthMin, StandardHealthMax = constants that are set for each ability

bonus damage = comes from Cunning, Power and Tech Power

StandardHealth = a constant dependent on character level (1610 at level 50)

The split in the two components is about 87% / 13% between the left (bonus damage) and right (character level)parts. I'd expect StandardHealth to increase to a figure of around 1730 at level 55. A rough guess, I couldn't see a pattern in its advance by level.

OK, here comes the point: with the nerf to Crit (and without crit chance Surge is less useful too), Power is made proportionately more important - you basically want Power, unless you can get main stat (or Expertise if PvP), and forget Crit or anything else. UNLESS they have also revamped all the ability modifiers and constants, in which case it's a new ball game. Specifically, if they have changed ability coefficients - the figure bonus damage is multiplied to work out an abilitiy's damage - then that would be an effective nerf to Power. That would require starting again on any stat-balancing models (like I've made myself, and got the 5000+ Power figure above from).

This is speculation, and would require going into the PTS files to check the code for the abilities, but if Bioware have done that it would mitigate some of the enormous nerf to Crit they seem to want to make. Would be a lot of work though, as it'd mean changing constants on all the many abilities in the game rather than just the Crit equation. Unless they've tweaked how damage is calculated. Hmm.

I'll stop now, too esoteric.

TL;DR: Scrapper 2.0 suggestion: it seems Crit is terrible, get Power. Accuracy to 8% for PvE, don't bother if PvP; then maybe 200 Surge and the rest in Alacrity. UNLESS Bioware have quietly altered ability stats or damage equations.

Sucks that we're so far behind the PTs and smashers now. I can beat out a lot of the good ones on live, but I'm doing half their damage on pts, not to mention living about 10 secs out of stealth.

Yeah this is a serious problem. Smashers are one thing because their Smash AOE always artificially increases their damage output at the end of a WZ. If they get a 7k Smash and hit 4 people with it, that's about 28k damage right there from one move. It's a problem that they are getting 7k Smashes regularly when I am barely seeing any 6k Shoot Firsts or BBs, but hey, we have other things going for us that they don't.

PTs, however, are another matter. That's a predominantly single target damage spec and they are hitting way, way harder than we are in almost every respect. Don't even get me started on that PT hybrid build; whoever thinks that is a fair spec is either a PT player themselves or has no concept whatsoever as to class balance.

A fix on the crit diminishing returns would be enough to help us out. That was a really stupid change anyway and whoever thought it would reduce TTK clearly had not played a WZ in the last 5 months. But something does need to change from the current 2.0 state.

Miyke, you bring a smile to my face just thinking about a 7k only smash. Sadly, I've been seeing from 9.5 all the way up to 10.7k on the pts, usually around 8.6k though. I have gotten a HS or SF for 7.1k, but that was a lucky strike and I haven't even been itemizing my gear properly.

Yeah, and that hybrid PT spec, I honestly haven't even looked into what it may be, is what everyone is playing and they are practically unbeatable. Now you take that and multiply that by 4, b/c that's the avg amount of PTs I've seen per each match, and they are just dominating. How BW has not made a SINGLE balance change yet, since they assure us that they collect internal data, is *********** insulting.

And with no balance changes, combined with the upcoming double xp weekends, it's looking like this is how it's going to market.

My main wouldn't copy at first, then I didn't keep any logs during the first bolster bug plus then Scamper broken. Finally started once that had been fixed, but then pops were slower, so my logs aren't as complete as I'd like. Also, any values will still be affected by PTS screwiness (like how do you tell whether someone was affected by Bolster Bug II: the Demoddening?).

Also, I try to gear as well as I can. So got the 2-piece bonus from enforcer and field/tech professional gear (which does share their set bonus, at least when I tried it), and a couple of pieces of conqueror gear (not guns).

Having put all those caveats, my biggest hit was a 7.7k Back Blast. Bit funny, as Shoot First is still generally in front of BB. Highest SF is 7.6k with the odd 7.5k thrown in. Also got a Sabo Charge of 7k, and a Sucker Punch at 6k.

Incoming - which is a better measure for comparison, as it's all on the same target (me), so no worries about someone coming to warzones dressed in a tutu and getting turned into pate - my logs report highest hit as Smash (inevitably), at 8.5k.

I sorted for hits bigger than 7k, it's all Smash, Smash, Smash bar two big Vicious Throws. Note that I've seen a fair amount of scoundrels and operatives - people trying out the class with Scamper/Exfiltrate or DF/Lethality builds I expect - and though I've eaten noticeably more Hidden Strikes, Backstabs, etc., none of them have been hard enough to get up near the Warrior abilities.

Would like to get more data but PTS warzones are a bit dead at my play times at the minute. Maybe more luck at weekends.

I've been putting an overcomplicated set of graph and table together to try to illustrate damage taken by ability, Live and PTS. Will post it when I get home if I can stop feeling too tired to bother.

Yeah, and that hybrid PT spec, I honestly haven't even looked into what it may be, is what everyone is playing and they are practically unbeatable.

God yes, PTs have only got worse. In the "they are a nightmare" sense. That baseline hydraulic overrides is a pain in the backside I didn't need. Also, slingers/snipers aren't so much of a free lunch any more. Leaving JK/SW and Smash so far ahead when making far-reaching class changes is a ridiculous decision. It takes a fair amount to make me angry about a game, but that's getting there.

And with no balance changes, combined with the upcoming double xp weekends, it's looking like this is how it's going to market.

I hope you're wrong, I fear you're right.

And with no balance changes, combined with the upcoming double xp weekends, it's looking like this is how it's going to market.

BW has heard our concerns and started to respond appropriately! Let it no longer be said that BW does not care about PvP and the voice of the community:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=608719

Specifically, there's this gem:

Classes and Combat

• Increased amount of critical chance given per point of primary attribute (Aim, Cunning, Strength, Willpower).
  
• Increased amount of critical chance given per point of Critical rating.
  
• Reduced effectiveness of Absorb and Shield rating; as compensation, the base damage of Champion NPCs has also been reduced
  

And then there is the death of that god awful PT hybrid:

Advanced Prototype

• Charged Gauntlets has been redesigned. While High Energy Gas Cylinder is active, damage dealt by Rocket Punch makes the next Rail Shot an automatic critical hit. The Powertech skill tree has been rearranged, making Charged Gauntlets require Prototype Cylinder Ventilation instead of Serrated Blades
  
• Power Loaders no longer increases ranged critical chance.
  
• Prototype Cylinders now further improves the internal and elemental damage done while High Energy Gas Cylinder is active by 1% (down from 3%).
  
• Prototype Weapon Systems now increases Retractable Blade critical damage, but no longer increases Flame Burst critical damage.
  

 

Pyrotech (Powertech)

• Thermal Detonator has been redesigned. The Bounty Hunter now hurls a thermal detonator that adheres to the target and detonates after several seconds, exploding for kinetic damage and burning the target for elemental damage over 12 seconds. Standard and weak enemies enter a state of panic when the explosive attaches and are knocked down when it explodes.
  
• Firebug (Powertech) no longer increases the critical damage done by Power Shot, but now increases the critical damage done by Flame Burst.
  
• Rain of Fire (Powertech) no longer increases Unload damage to burning targets.
  

These changes (read: Nerfs) to Pyrotech really increase the viability of our spec. And they were badly needed regardless of what the Scrappers thought.

Hey Boss'

Great guide, much love. Can't really think about anything you could add but I have some questions.

Could you please tell me how gearing is going to change in 2.0 considering the usage of PVE shells? I just absolutely hate most of our armor skins yet I love the 15% BB crit. Is this still going to be an issue in 2,0?

Also, what do you think about scamper I found it really frustrating that I roll wherever the camera looks and not where my char does, also won't everyone cry nerf? I noticed how much distance I can roll down with some energy management and its unbelievable after having had to wait almost every fire in HBALL.

I'm just interested about how it will affect your warzone guides and when/if we will see it updated to 2.0.

Thanks again for the guide!

Never forget Serenity Valley!

Great guide!

One thing: you didnt mention anything about the carnage marauders control (deadly throw and ravage root)+ +15% passive speed buff. All in all you honestly want to just **** when against a carnage mara with his cds up. Also, dotting him is bad seeing as you dot yourself with cop up. :-)

Hey Boss'

 

Great guide, much love. Can't really think about anything you could add but I have some questions.

 

Could you please tell me how gearing is going to change in 2.0 considering the usage of PVE shells? I just absolutely hate most of our armor skins yet I love the 15% BB crit. Is this still going to be an issue in 2,0?

Glad to hear it was helpful. If any other questions/comments come to mind, please let me know and I will definitely get around to them.

Re: 2.0 Gearing

There are a lot of changes that 2.0 is going to bring to gearing. The biggest issue right now is the uselesness of crit rating. There is literally no reason to have a single point of crit rating on any of your gear right now. Power will always give you the better bang for your buck from a damage expected-value perspective. But I am hoping that this will get changed before release, so I am unwilling to weigh in too heavily on that here. Alacrity is another issue, but I am pretty sure that the optimal balance on Alacrity/Surge is either a 5/5 or a 6/4 split on the Alacrity/Surge enhancements.

As for set bonuses, as far as I can tell on the PTS, the PvE set bonus for BB Crit Chance is still the best option for a 2 piece bonus. After that, you probably want to pick up the 2 piece PvP Medic bonus for a 10% increase to Shield Probe absorption; that's a high value ability that we lose a lot in WZs. Because set bonuses are now just tied to the armoring mod itself, you can use whatever shells you want to (at least, that's what I remember). So no worries about the aesthetics! Just rip stuff out and put stuff in wherever you want.

Also, what do you think about scamper I found it really frustrating that I roll wherever the camera looks and not where my char does, also won't everyone cry nerf? I noticed how much distance I can roll down with some energy management and its unbelievable after having had to wait almost every fire in HBALL.

I'm just interested about how it will affect your warzone guides and when/if we will see it updated to 2.0.

Scamper is amazing. It improves our WZ impact across the board, especially on Novare coast; it is now possible to consistently take the mid speed boost without being contested and then stealthrace over to stop their node cap. It also really helps out in Huttball, as you observed.

Never forget Serenity Valley!

They'll never take the sky from me/us!

Great guide!

One thing: you didnt mention anything about the carnage marauders control (deadly throw and ravage root)+ +15% passive speed buff. All in all you honestly want to just **** when against a carnage mara with his cds up. Also, dotting him is bad seeing as you dot yourself with cop up. :-)

I can add a small note about that. It really isn't that big of a deal. One thing I like to do during the Ravage root is throw down a Kolto Pack heal; even with the pushback, you can still resolve it. The Mar can't interrupt without messing up his big damage Ravage. The throw is a bit more annoying, but you shouldn't be trying to kite over long distances anyway. Whenever you pick a battle, you want to fight near corners and edges. With very few exceptions, you can find such a place on whatever map you are playing on. That means you can root and run to cover and the Mar is very unlikely to have the reaction speed or even time to just root you and prevent that escape.

Here's the thing with Cloak of Pain. You need Flechette Round to win the Marauder fight; 2 FRs is just so much unmitigated damage, and you need your AP up at all times. So at a certain point in time, you just need to accept that the FR ticks are going to keep the Cloak up. Now, one thing that you should not always be doing is relying on VS. Towards the end of the fight, when the Mar pops Rage, you probably want to FB to outlast its 4second duration. VS could mess that plan up. So VS does not necessarily need to be a part of your anti-marauder arsenal. Sometimes it makes sense to counter CoP with Flashbang, but only if you somehow know that Rage isn't also ready to go.

If, however, you can guarantee a fight in an area with lots of LoS (Civil War side nodes come to mind), then VS becomes invaluable. You need to keep causing damage even as you kite to heal, so as to widen the health gap even further. Counting Expertise damage bonuses and the chance at crits, VS can add about 4k damage at the cost of just 1 GCD, all unmitigated by armor. Over an 18second fight, that's a big leg up for us.

Great guide here, ktkenshinx! I've been checking this thread regularly for updates, and am glad somebody finally went through the trouble of putting one together.

Quick question on 2.0 set bonuses...

As for set bonuses, as far as I can tell on the PTS, the PvE set bonus for BB Crit Chance is still the best option for a 2 piece bonus. After that, you probably want to pick up the 2 piece PvP Medic bonus for a 10% increase to Shield Probe absorption; that's a high value ability that we lose a lot in WZs. Because set bonuses are now just tied to the armoring mod itself, you can use whatever shells you want to (at least, that's what I remember). So no worries about the aesthetics! Just rip stuff out and put stuff in wherever you want.

On live, it's possible to gain the enforcer PVE set bonus without losing any expertise. This can be done by putting the elite war hero armorings from the belts and bracers into the tionese / columi shells. This has been my set up since EWH gear was introduced.

Given the fact that expertise will no longer be subject to diminishing returns, as well as the fact that the PVE barrels are now highly desirable in PVP, do you see any concerns with losing that much expertise - 2 barrels + 2 armorings? Know of any way around this on PTS?

More on 2.0 gearing...

The new PVE gear (arkanian) no longer offers a +15% crit chance to backblast. Instead, it offers a +15% crit chance to blaster whip. The campaign set still has the old set bonus, but ripping / replacing the armoring removes the bonus from the shell.

Unless there's something I don't know, the only way to keep the set bonus is to retain 2 pieces of EWH armoring that already have the set bonus. This will cause you to lose a ton of cunning though.

It may also be possible to buy 2 enforcer pieces on live and pull out the armorings before 2.0 goes live. You'll then be able to put in 2 (crafted?) armorings that aren't restricted to a specific piece.

Hoping I'm wrong, but I really don't see any other way around this.

More on 2.0 gearing...

 

The new PVE gear (arkanian) no longer offers a +15% crit chance to backblast. Instead, it offers a +15% crit chance to blaster whip. The campaign set still has the old set bonus, but ripping / replacing the armoring removes the bonus from the shell.

 

Unless there's something I don't know, the only way to keep the set bonus is to retain 2 pieces of EWH armoring that already have the set bonus. This will cause you to lose a ton of cunning though.

 

It may also be possible to buy 2 enforcer pieces on live and pull out the armorings before 2.0 goes live. You'll then be able to put in 2 (crafted?) armorings that aren't restricted to a specific piece.

 

Hoping I'm wrong, but I really don't see any other way around this.

They're trying anything they can to make the scrapper less viable/attractive for pvp. It happened in Wow with rogues and its happening again here with scrappers. There's really no positive way that thy can buff them, because thu are the optimal 1v1 class and making them more deadly would cause more outcries.

As of late, I find myself playing my Shadow a lot more. If I am not getting focused, my scrapper can do just fine. If I am getting focused, i.e. the opposing team aren't a bunch of idiots, I basically die very quickly and my objective is to deal as much damage as I possibly can in that short window.

I don't see this changing in 2.0, even with getting a lol-roll. Shadows are just way more effective, deal more damage and can survive a ton of things scrappers can't. Even with their "huge" nerf.