Don't get me wrong, but hear me out a little.

RIFT raiding is better. I am pretty sure every raider will agree if they have played both.

One of the biggest issues is the easiest fix for Bioware...Create gear worthy of a 16 man raid. RIFT has 20 man raids that give appropriate gear for the 20 man raid. Everyone does not need to get a piece, just drop better gear then the 8 man raids. If they can adjust Valor and all pvp gear across the board they could easily add in 16 man raid gear that is better then the 8 man.

Second comparison: RIFT raid Bosses are better. They are more involved and need much better coordination in the Raid. Simple as that. Now the SWTOR Bosses are ok but there is truly no difference between the various levels, normal, 8 man, 16 man other then harder hits and more hp. The mechanics are still the same and basically take no challenge to learn other then gear checks.

Yes RIFT raids have gear checks but the Bosses DO NOT REPEAT. They have different Bosses.

Lastly as mentioned above. The RIFT raids progress from 5 man to 20 man. Yet the raid zones are also expanded. This does not happen in SWTOR. The raid zone is static, the layout is the same with the exact same npc's. RIFT expands the raid zone and adds in NEW Bosses with different mechanics and NEW Gear.

All of the RIFT raiding systems promotes continuous raiding and PROGRESSION to get better gear and work the players up to the next raid and so on. Sure eventually all raid content does get completed but in SWTOR the FACT of NO better gear between 8 man and 16 man gear , why bother with the next step? Why bang your head into the wall only to not gain a single thing from cracking your skull.

Bioware. Please look at RIFT. If only to see how to create a raid. Expand operations or Flashpoints in a way so a 16 man raid actually would be fun and challenging. Worth the effort to do and progress the gear in such a way to create continued returning to the Op or Fp.

It is a simple request and imoo a simple thing to actually do. Take the coding you have for all the ops and mash them into 2 NEW 16 man Raid planets...Not ones that you just zone in from the Space Stations. But ones where the players travel from the space station land on a planet and THEN MUST travel by public speeder to the raid zone location.

Oh and if you took some ideas from thet Mythic crew you might still have. Make one of these or add in another where both factions can run it at the same time and fight for rights to gain entrance to the bosses populated in the game. Maybe have a way so if one faction is in a boss fight, the other can circle around to the next and so on.

This should not be easy mode and yet should not also take more then 10 minutes to get to

The points about 8 and 16 man raids are valid though. there is no incentive to doing 16 man and the ops are pretty static between the two modes.

Boss encounters are boring and repetitive but I cant comment if rift is any better as i haven't played it. WoW boss encounters are much more interesting for sure.

The points about 8 and 16 man raids are valid though. there is no incentive to doing 16 man and the ops are pretty static between the two modes.

Boss encounters are boring and repetitive but I cant comment if rift is any better as i haven't played it. WoW boss encounters are much more interesting for sure.

I don't think Bioware took into account that there are players who do nothing but min/max their raids and that's all they live for. SWToR doesn't appear to be a raiding game and they took the chance on that people would take the time to level and not rush to the end

You are joking right? Raiding in rift better? You mean the 30 min 10 man raids or the 45 min 20 man raids? Oh wait, they release one really hard raid for the hardcores to eat up for a couple of weeks then nerf it so the really bad players in that game can accomplish it

Spoken like a true elitist. In while a you will say the same thing about TOR on some other forum... and then the next game and then the next etc etc...

Spoken like a true elitist. In while a you will say the same thing about TOR on some other forum... and then the next game and then the next etc etc...

Far from eltitist. Rift is a bad game. There is no challenge at all in it. They release content fairly fast which for a couple of weeks is hard as hell but then gets nerfed due to the outcry on the forums by the people who feel they are entitled to all the content without any effort.

As far as technicality and innovation? I think Rift is much better, but its only because rift has been out longer, Rift raids have been getting better with each one, But imo they still werent quite equal to wow raids as of hammer knell but they are getting closer.

Imo building intricate and complicated raids take experience you only get from building and analizing raids. And im not saying swtor raids are bad, theyre just young and someone that has been progression raiding for many years can tell.

Spoken like a true elitist. In while a you will say the same thing about TOR on some other forum... and then the next game and then the next etc etc...

Not constructive to the post, labeling someone an elitist for giving an opinion of the subject at hand without expressing your own opinion comes off as pure contrarianism.

EV is kinda boring, the pylons are not nearly as rough as they used to be once they fixed the game breaking bugs, and the only hard part about SOA is getting your raid to the next level during transition phases.

KP has it's moments, especially during plan D, and the fabricator fight, otherwise it's not too rough.

EC...I hate this raid, Toth and Zorn suck to tank, Firebrand and Stormcaller suck because of their mechanics...the minefield is fun, at least for me because i'm usually the clicker...but Kephess...ugh he sucks

I never raided in Rift so I couldn't tell you what they were like, but that game wasn't very fun once the invasion novelty wore off.

You are joking right? Raiding in rift better? You mean the 30 min 10 man raids or the 45 min 20 man raids? Oh wait, they release one really hard raid for the hardcores to eat up for a couple of weeks then nerf it so the really bad players in that game can accomplish it

As opposed to what? SWTOR's 2 Tier 1 8/16 man jokes of raids that can be completed in 30-40 min and they're 1 real raid that will more than likely get nerfed so that the bad players can clear it too?

At least in Rift you had actual mechanics on most of your boss fights instead of a simple "kill the boss before 5 minutes are up and don't stand in aoe". I personally enjoyed the raiding in Rift a hell of a lot more than SWTOR, it actually took some attempts and coordination to figure out a boss fight before you downed it, in SWTOR they are all mind numbingly boring and forgiving except for the 4 in EC and all you mainly have to worry about is the enrage timer.

Rift raiding was pretty good, but people seem to forget that their first 2 raids were a JOKE. The only good raiding Rift had was Hammerknell. It was hard, there were a lot of fights, and most of them were fun. I might still be playing Rift if some stuff hadn't come up and I didn't get left behind by my guild. Either way, you have to give games time to get their raids up to par. Everyone wants to remember the tough raids and people always forget the loleasy ones that every game has at release.

Rift has a much more aggressive content release schedule, but they also had a lot less invested in their non-endgame encounters. ToR has to deal with things across the board, so it will take them time to put out quality raids. Give them time. The progression of EV/KP > EC was very good. The EC fights felt difficult and learning them was a lot of fun. Let's hope that BW continues that trend. I also really hope to see larger Operations, Maybe 7-10 boss Ops.

Far from eltitist. Rift is a bad game. There is no challenge at all in it. They release content fairly fast which for a couple of weeks is hard as hell but then gets nerfed due to the outcry on the forums by the people who feel they are entitled to all the content without any effort.

This does not mean that the Raid concept is bad nor the game. But them nerfing the content is bad when they cater to the players that whine the most. I do agree that nerfing any raid because it is hard is an option, they do need to stop nerfing the hell out of the good ideas they have and just make players work for the rewards. History shows that players like a challenge and not spoon fed. Though some players just don't understand the idea of working for the enjoyment of success.

Well TORs raids are getting better. Mainly EC. They added some small new mechanics or changes from Story to Hard, and are doing the same for Nightmare to make it harder still. Wheras EV/KP yeah they were pretty lame throughout.

EC nightmare will also have new gear, which is a plus.

As for 8 vs 16. I sort of agree, I sort of dont. There should be a small reward, a difference in gear. But I would be happy, heck I'd even prefer if it was just a visual thing, like gear's colour. But then with 1.3 you can wear whatever you want and augment it, making the visuals not too important (unless of they actually make some ****** looking endgame gear).

I think having the same area to play wth 16man part of the challenge. It's easy to move out of random red circles when the area is nice and empty. It's harder when theres more people around with their own red circles.

But yeah, that extra challenge should be awarded with something...maybe a small stat increase in the armouring alone. (So as not to make it complete tier ahead).

As opposed to what? SWTOR's 2 Tier 1 8/16 man jokes of raids that can be completed in 30-40 min and they're 1 real raid that will more than likely get nerfed so that the bad players can clear it too?

 

At least in Rift you had actual mechanics on most of your boss fights instead of a simple "kill the boss before 5 minutes are up and don't stand in aoe". I personally enjoyed the raiding in Rift a hell of a lot more than SWTOR, it actually took some attempts and coordination to figure out a boss fight before you downed it, in SWTOR they are all mind numbingly boring and forgiving except for the 4 in EC and all you mainly have to worry about is the enrage timer.

What raids are you finishing in 30 min? The 6 month old one that you're probably over geared for?

What raids are you finishing in 30 min? The 6 month old one that you're probably over geared for?

We were clearing EV and KP in under 40 minutes each in Hard Mode while we were still gearing up in it, whenever we go back to get people's alts gear it is even faster. The only thing that ever kept people held up back then was the fight stopping bugs, especially in EV. They are not hard in the slightest, as long as you have the correct gear required and half a brain you can breeze through them. I'm not saying Rift's entry level raids were any different, they were easy too, but at least they had fun and interesting mechanics instead of a simple "don't stand in aoe" and "kill the boss before 5 minutes is up".

History shows that players like a challenge and not spoon fed.

What alternate universe are you living in?

I don't think Bioware took into account that there are players who do nothing but min/max their raids and that's all they live for. SWToR doesn't appear to be a raiding game and they took the chance on that people would take the time to level and not rush to the end

When the only thing there is to do is raiding, and it sucks, then you have a problem.

Rift sucked, all it was was WOW with a new skin, but hey if you like it you like. I for one do not.

I have raided EQ2, WOW, Rift, and SWTOR as the raid breakdown goes its

EQ2>WOW>SWTOR>RIft

Sorry but rift is such a semi par product that not only did most of its player base leave due to it being a wow clone, they left teh game cause it just plain was just balls.

And you all must be on the wrong server, and as for 40 mins to clear SWTOR raids i mean i could say a hr or so but not 40 mins, i mean you could get lucky and do that once, but not all the time

Sorry SWTOR>RIFT!!

We were clearing EV and KP in under 40 minutes each in Hard Mode while we were still gearing up in it, whenever we go back to get people's alts gear it is even faster. The only thing that ever kept people held up back then was the fight stopping bugs, especially in EV. They are not hard in the slightest, as long as you have the correct gear required and half a brain you can breeze through them. I'm not saying Rift's entry level raids were any different, they were easy too, but at least they had fun and interesting mechanics instead of a simple "don't stand in aoe" and "kill the boss before 5 minutes is up".

Screenshot or It didnt happen. I call bS on this. Maybe 40 min in Rakata gear , but if you were still gearing up in KP/EV HM's i doubt that you cleared it within the 40 min window.

"They are not hard in the slightest, as long as you have the correct gear required" right there i call bs, cause you just contradicted your own statement "We were clearing EV and KP in under 40 minutes each in Hard Mode while we were still gearing up in it"

Yea BS!!!

Screenshot or It didnt happen. I call bS on this. Maybe 40 min in Rakata gear , but if you were still gearing up in KP/EV HM's i doubt that you cleared it within the 40 min window.

 

"They are not hard in the slightest, as long as you have the correct gear required" right there i call bs, cause you just contradicted your own statement "We were clearing EV and KP in under 40 minutes each in Hard Mode while we were still gearing up in it"

 

Yea BS!!!

You can call BS all you want, we were clearing it in 40ish min with the raid in a mix of Columi/Tionese/Rakata gear(Tionese because Columi commendations didn't drop like candy back then, and "Destined Loot" was still on normal mode so a lot of Columi went to waste on people that didn't need it, hell I even had my Rakata mainhand before I even had a single piece of Columi on my Commando). We were all optimizing our specs/rotations to the best of our knowledge(without a combat log at the time) but we were in no way even close to over gearing the raids. I honestly don't care what some random on the forums thinks the right time to clear the raid is, any competent group can clear HM EV and KP with no wipes in 40 minutes easy. The boss fights ARE NOT HARD, if you have the minimal amount of gear required and are not a complete moron that stands in the big red circles on the ground or infront of the boss(if you're not the tank) then you should have absolutely no trouble whatsoever clearing these raids at a very fast pace. The only fight I can think of that had any type of engaging mechanics aside from "avoid AOE" and "beat the enrage" is Soa, the rest of the boss mechanics are just a bunch of underdeveloped unimaginative boring garbage.

-Keep in mind I am talking about EV and KP, not EC, I actually enjoy EC's bosses and I think it is a good sign of things to come for SWTOR.

Also I don't think you know what "contradict" means or you are just grasping at straws trying to justify your view. When I said "Correct Gear required" I wasn't referring to Rakata at all aside from the Rakata we were getting from killing the bosses which why we were farming it in the first place(hence the "While we were still gearing up in them", gearing up implies that you are STILL trying to get gear from inside the raid). The required gear to successfully run EV and KP HM I would say is a mix of Columi and Tionese at least unless you are being carried by over geared players.

Now if I were to have said ""They are not hard in the slightest, as long as you have full remodded Rakata completely over gearing what the raid was intended for" then yes I would have been contradicting myself, but unfortunately I did not say that.

I'm wondering, what exactly do you think makes the raids so difficult that it would take more than 40 minutes to clear them on Hard Mode? There isn't an insane amount of trash(hell in EV you only ever have to kill 1 group of trash before the first boss and 1 long hallway after and the rest you can either toss off the edge of the place or completely skip the majority of) and the boss fights aren't exactly show stoppers of difficulty, the bugs that used to exist in these raids were even harder to overcome than the intended boss mechanics so they are even easier now. What exactly holds you up to the point where you can't fathom people clearing this place that quickly without over gearing it, Rakata isn't even that much better than Columi anyway, you even have to remod it to make it better than Columi so it's not like you get some kind of insane performance increase from having Rakata gear over Columi that allows you to shave off 20-30 minutes from a raid.

Rift sucked, all it was was WOW with a new skin, but hey if you like it you like. I for one do not.

 

I have raided EQ2, WOW, Rift, and SWTOR as the raid breakdown goes its

 

EQ2>WOW>SWTOR>RIft

 

Sorry but rift is such a semi par product that not only did most of its player base leave due to it being a wow clone, they left teh game cause it just plain was just balls.

 

And you all must be on the wrong server, and as for 40 mins to clear SWTOR raids i mean i could say a hr or so but not 40 mins, i mean you could get lucky and do that once, but not all the time

 

Sorry SWTOR>RIFT!!

I find it kind of funny that you bring up Rift being a reskinned WoW(which it is), and neglect to mention that SWTOR is as well and many people share that same opinion just as they do with Rift, the major difference is that SWTOR has a very popular IP and lots of lore behind it while Rift's is some original stuff they created. It's one of the first things I noticed when I played through my first character in beta, this is really just a reskinned WoW clone like Rift was. Not saying I didn't enjoy it at the time but to call one out and not the other is a joke. Underneath all the over used drawn out voice overs and emphasis on the leveling process it is just another standard Themepark MMO.

Personally I'm tired of them all, the 1 night full clears of raid content and then a week of waiting around for the lockout to reset just isn't fun to me like it used to be. I just don't have fun with what this part of the genre has been reduced to, I love progression and raiding but I need more to do than just that to keep my interest enough to continue a subscription.

Well most likely they will have to cater to people that arent going to move out of aoe, will do nowhere near the dps they should and will not use interupts or whatever else their class role requires of them. And for the ppl that care for their game they will give some titles and access to some gear a few weeks earlier.

I doupt they will nerf content unless in cases like Soa although i doupt they will add so much RNG in future fights, Instead they will make better gear more readily avaible, like black hole relics and rakata chest from Lost island, so 2-4 ppl can hard-carry the content.

Denova though was better designed than EV/KP and is a step in good direction and we still havent seen nightmare.

sadly i cant comment on rift as i havent played it.

I call ********

Soley because no one capable of running HM EV/KP in 40 min would waste their time doing it.

Nuf said

And yes, all pve is easy

We clear 8 man HM EC in a couple hours. Can't imagine why anyone would waste their time in EV at all. KP NMM is the only thing we run.

We were clearing EV and KP in under 40 minutes each in Hard Mode while we were still gearing up in it, whenever we go back to get people's alts gear it is even faster. The only thing that ever kept people held up back then was the fight stopping bugs, especially in EV. They are not hard in the slightest, as long as you have the correct gear required and half a brain you can breeze through them. I'm not saying Rift's entry level raids were any different, they were easy too, but at least they had fun and interesting mechanics instead of a simple "don't stand in aoe" and "kill the boss before 5 minutes is up".

It is literally impossible to do it under 40min maybe a hour, but each boss fight takes around 4-5min, with 5 bosses making it roughly 25min for the bosses alone, not including soa takes 8-9min instead of 4-5 and loot discussion, trash clear,and generally walking to the next boss. say the time for the bosses is 30min a perfect run. then u have 20min of adds or more. sorry to say ur calculating wrong