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So where is the alleged "heroic combat"?


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Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but I thought there was at least one occasion of Bioware talking about how they wanted you to feel like a hero in combat, how you'd take on superior odds, how it'd be different from combat in other MMOs.

 

Only ... it isn't. At all.

 

In fact, I feel weaker and less "heroic" than in WoW (and I'm saying that as someone who grew to hate that game, not as a fangirl). Granted, that is likely at least in part due to having had several characters at max in each stage of the game while my highest here is 27. So I can't compare the full extent of their "toolboxes" yet. But other issues remain:

 

* There are skills that only work on redshirt enemies but don't do anything at all in any situation that actually matters, i.e. PvP and fights against elites and bosses. The Jedi Knight apparently has TWO of these skills which do exactly the same thing, only with higher/lower numbers. Whatever genius came up with that?

 

* Silver enemies and above are immune to the side-effects of many other skills. (This was a huge point of frustration for my Knight throughout Tython and Coruscant. Other classes apparently don't have that issue, which raises some other questions.)

 

* Some bosses are immune even to interrupts.

 

* At the same time, many enemies have no problems stunning us, knocking us around like footballs, slowing us, and so on. This is especially "fun" for us melee types.

 

* And above all, most of the time when grouping we're still dogpiling on a single humanoid enemy who could wipe each of us out in three seconds flat without breaking a sweat or blinking an eye. Even in story fights, the companion is usually crucial so it's not a gripping, epic duel but a 2-on-1.

 

Who's more "heroic" -- the NPC boss who has all the fancy moves to control and interrupt us, or the players who need to (massively) outnumber said NPC to have any hopes of winning and, at least for some classes, can barely affect him/her/it with their own non-damage abilities?

 

Now contrast this with the obscene amount of ego-wanking we get in our storylines and you have a situation that makes my brain throw a "divide by zero" error. I do wish they'd tone down the over-the-top ego-stroking because it feels extremely silly and pandering even without the game mechanical contradictions. But I also wish that I could indeed feel a bit more heroic in combat.

 

I'm fine with dogpiling on huge nasties like rancors, dragons, giants or tower-sized battledroids -- enemies who are obviously, massively physically superior to any single humanoid. I'm also fine with needing a friend's help occasionally in a fight against a single humanoid foe, especially when it's a Force-user. But it shouldn't be the default situation that is almost never deviated from. And random nameless elites shouldn't be able to resist half of what I can do.

 

When I first heard of the alleged cinematic, epic, heroic combat, I was hoping that group combat would involve many battles against huge enemies, or against an equal-sized group of enemy heroes, or against small armies, or battles that use the environment to our advantage. I was hoping for battles that required me to use every trick in my book, all my utility, instead of just brainlessly flailing away because I can't affect the enemy with anything but sheer damage. Looks like I was hoping for too much. Does it get better in the mid- and high-level content or does almost every fight still fall in the "bunch of scrubby PC weaklings against a single godlike NPC" category?

 

And does this bug anyone else like it does me?

Edited by Erian
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Too lazy to read and make a constructive reply, but not too lazy to post BS eh? This "only max level counts" attitude doesn't fly, especially if you bothered to read beyond that point. What exactly makes dogpiling on a single godly NPC more "heroic" at 50 than at 27? And if you know so much better, you could at least reply to the question of whether boss fights do in fact get better and more varied at the mid- and high levels.
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Firstly, having a lightsaber and the ability to use the force does not make one invincible. So don't expect to be able to conquer massive horde of enemies.

 

That aside, I do agree that some of the combat does not feel heroic. However, as the trolls have hinted earlier, a majority of the early game, I'd say probably between 1-35 or so, depending on how fast you progress through your class story, doesn't exactly feel heroic at all. As you progress beyond that, the difficulty begins to ramp up significantly, having fairly strong reliance on your companion, although this may differ depending on your advanced class. The class story quests later on, at least for the bounty hunter class, makes your character feel significant and important, to some degree, and at least makes your character seem 'heroic'.

 

At max level however some of the fights begin to challenge you. Having successfully completed every hardmode flashpoint, except False Emperor, the difficulty or at least some of the animations/sizes/etc of some bosses do give you great satisfaction when you destroy them the first time. One fight in particular, Mentor from Directive 7 gave off a great sense of satisfaction when I killed him the first time. The amount of chaos that goes on throughout the fight made the fight fairly engaging and heroic for me. There are some fights where you take on massive enemies, others where you take on an elite squad of veterans. There is the occasional "bunch of scrubby PC weaklings against a single godlike NPC" fight however.

 

Long story short, I feel that the solo content isn't particularly amazing and don't feel heroic at all, aside from the story, however some of the flashpoints and operations are pretty fun and heroic, while some others are mediocre at best. There is little in terms of taking on a swarm of enemies, aside from some flashpoints with obscene amounts of trash. Mind you I have only done Empire side content, and nothing beyond level 28 on Republic side. I believe that's only the Taral V and Directive 7 and Esseles and Blacktalon flashpoints that differ for the two factions.

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I enter heroic combat everyday.I can actually get killed if i make a mistake , or aggro too many mobs.I cant solo a 4 man instance as i shouldnt be able to.Heck a two man will kick my butt.

 

A gold elite battle droid i can take.A gold elite sith?Forget it.Im talking equal level here.So unless i tweak it to the T to beat that one sith i suppose i probably could but why?then im not having fun anymore.

 

On a pvp server getting a quest done in a pvp zone is pretty heroic since you can get ganked at any time.I have been already quite a few times.

 

I dont feel sorry for you.

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I am surprised by the reaction you are getting. From reading your post, I know you don't want the ability to one shot enemies.

 

I can tell you are not necessarily pining for World of Warcraft (WoW). I have never played WoW past a 15 day trial.

The issue I have been having is that the Player vs. Environment (PvE) content does not really do a great job preparing you for the Flashpoints or Heroic missions.

 

So far (I am level 29), normal missions (non Heroic missions or Flashpoints) only require 3-4 abilities at most. Also, they do not require any real coordination between human characters. I guess what I am trying to say is that the game does nothing to really prepare you for the Flashpoints. The difficulty ratchets up dramatically.

 

The game, ironically, almost assumes that you have played another Massively Multi-Player Online Game (MMO). Because if you haven't, you will be sorely unprepared for flashpoints. I, myself, did not understand the importance of crowd control and my own crowd control abilities (Concussive Round, Concussion Blast, Cryo Grenade). It wasn't until a Jedi I had grouped with explained it to me, that I realised how important they are. And, then, the switcheroo. These abilities do not work on certain bosses.

 

For those bosses, a decent level of team coordination/composition is required. Again, the game pretty much assumes that you played another MMO and understand all this.

 

I am not whining and saying that the game needs to hold our hand. That is not what I want. However, I do think that the developers may want to think of differentiating its group content more from other MMOs. Because, as of now and from what I have read on this forum, the group content does not seem all that much different from other MMOs. Also, I do find it ironic that it seems the developers half expect people to have been trained in group content on other MMOs.

 

 

EDIT: I know my post is long enough as is and that most people probably won't read it. My one suggestion to improve things would be to allow us to respec our skills for group content. In Mandalorian Raiders, I grouped with two Smugglers and a Jedi. At the time my commando hybrid build had 11 points in gunnery and 7 in healing. It became obvious that we did not have enough DPS for the hounds and their hound master. So, it would have been great if one of the smugglers could have respecced as a healer, and if I could have respecced for more dps. However, that option is not available. We had so much trouble with the mission, that we disbanded.

 

I think the ability to respec would help group content along. Groups disbanding because they do not have the right composition, to me, is a bad thing.

Edited by SpeckledHen
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I think the combat is rather "heroic" feeling. As a 32 Sith Juggernaut the only types of mission that I can't handle are Heroic areas that are meant specifically for 2-4 players and Flashpoints.

 

I don't expect my 1 character to be able to go into these areas alone and be one bad-mutha-shut-yo-mouth. They simply aren't meant for that to happen and the only way that you can go into these areas and kick butt is by being way higher level than them. Effectively taking away any actual fun or challenge to them.

 

Now, for regular missions and other non-heroic areas (this includes nearly every story quest) there is absolutely no problem with me taking on groups of 3-5 enemies at a time and this is the only MMO I've ever played where I could successfully do that on a melee character.

 

But I think the real "Heroic Combat" is just in the combat animations and such. For example, when I use Ravage, a 3 hit combo lightsaber attack and the first hit is normal, the second knocks the target to a knee in a defenseless posture and the third strike finishes them knocking them to a ground. While sure, they get back up if they have more hp, it's an awesome way to "finish" an enemy when that last strike kills them.

 

And most notably when you aren't actively pushing a skill how you automatically deflect blaster fire and parry vibroblade and lightsaber strikes. It's quite cool to watch sometimes.

Edited by Sith_Ecks
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And again we are back at the good old "What does heroic Combat mean to you" Discussion.

 

For me, none of it really felt heroic. I actually felt more heroic at the lower levels, when I could take on two or three Imperial Troopers without even noticing it, and not at endgame solo content where you are (depending on your class) not too successful, should you try to attack a mob by yourself, without companion.

 

And there I always wonder, why not take two or three of these Soldiers from Ilum (or however that ice planet was called again) and put them as Bodyguards for all important people you meet/kill over the course of the game? Would make it so much easier.

 

And for the sake of it. Stop spreading all doom if the Esseles is attacked by some Star Destroyer. I have A ship docked, that can wipe that thing from space, as have my three friends. I do not need to board it, we can just shoot it down...

Edited by Tarengrim
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EDIT: I know my post is long enough as is and that most people probably won't read it. My one suggestion to improve things would be to allow us to respec our skills for group content. In Mandalorian Raiders, I grouped with two Smugglers and a Jedi. At the time my commando hybrid build had 11 points in gunnery and 7 in healing. It became obvious that we did not have enough DPS for the hounds and their hound master. So, it would have been great if one of the smugglers could have respecced as a healer, and if I could have respecced for more dps. However, that option is not available. We had so much trouble with the mission, that we disbanded.

 

I think the ability to respec would help group content along. Groups disbanding because they do not have the right composition, to me, is a bad thing.

 

You are able to respec in this game, you need to visit a "Skill Mentor" vendor.

Also, I'm not entirely sure if your group realised this or not, if you drag the dogs away from the boss, especially when the boss has a red circle around him, the dogs deal significantly less damage and you can ignore them, so long as they are away from the boss.

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You are able to respec in this game, you need to visit a "Skill Mentor" vendor.

Also, I'm not entirely sure if your group realised this or not, if you drag the dogs away from the boss, especially when the boss has a red circle around him, the dogs deal significantly less damage and you can ignore them, so long as they are away from the boss.

 

Yes, I know I can respecc. But it means paying out credits for the privilege. Not something I am willing to do just so I can make the group I am with viable. It is kind of a pain. What I meant was that I really wish we could easily do it on the fly. I'm not sure why the insistence on making it as inconvenient as possible. I'm guessing this is a hold over from other MMOs? Is it convention? Something that can be easily exploitable? Because I don't really see the reason why it has to be so rigid.

 

 

edit: oh and thanks for the tip on those hounds. I did not know that.

Edited by SpeckledHen
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Firstly, having a lightsaber and the ability to use the force does not make one invincible. So don't expect to be able to conquer massive horde of enemies.

 

"Massive hordes" on a big open plain while I'm alone? No. But how about four people using all the tricks in their toolbox as well as the environment against a small army? Your example would be over-the-top I agree, and I don't want that.

 

There are some fights where you take on massive enemies, others where you take on an elite squad of veterans. There is the occasional "bunch of scrubby PC weaklings against a single godlike NPC" fight however.

 

If there are occasional fights roughly like what I hoped for when I heard "heroic combat", that's something at least :) I just wish there was more of it, in solo and group content.

 

 

I am surprised by the reaction you are getting. From reading your post, I know you don't want the ability to one shot enemies.

 

Exactly. Trolls will be trolls, apparently. I like and want a good challenge both solo and in a group. What I don't like are all those "dogpile on a super-NPC who laughs off most of your special abilities (if your class even has any) while kicking you around like a hapless football" fights when we're told OOC that there will be "heroic combat" and told IC how we're basically the Second Coming. What I don't like is that there are countless elites who don't even have a name and are more than our equal at even level, used as "trash" for a dime a dozen.

 

It just doesn't add up, and it isn't really fun or interesting either, especially if you've played a MMO before and were hoping for a breath of fresh air.

 

The game, ironically, almost assumes that you have played another Massively Multi-Player Online Game (MMO). Because if you haven't, you will be sorely unprepared for flashpoints. I, myself, did not understand the importance of crowd control and my own crowd control abilities (Concussive Round, Concussion Blast, Cryo Grenade). It wasn't until a Jedi I had grouped with explained it to me, that I realised how important they are.

 

Yes, that is a good point about new players. It might be interesting if the game itself had a few tutorial missions to show those basic MMO/teamwork staples, but I don't know how it could be done given the variety of potential group compositions.

 

And, then, the switcheroo. These abilities do not work on certain bosses.

 

And that, in addition to making our supposedly highly gifted and skilled heroes look like hapless grunts, also significantly dumbs down combat because suddenly you lose a good part of your arsenal. More for some classes, less for others; for example low-level Knights get several skills that have a stun side-effect but none of them work even on silvers -- i.e. in any fight that is actually important or challenging. Not fun.

 

Groups disbanding because they do not have the right composition, to me, is a bad thing.

 

Agreed: if you have a tank, a healer and two DPS you should be able to do anything provided the group understands their classes and teamwork, and isn't noticeably undergeared or underlevelled. Hybrid builds like yours sadly often reach their limits in harder content, though there are exceptions.

 

I don't know the content and classes well enough in this game to say if group composition is an issue here, but the availability of CC alone can really make or break a group. That is frustrating and, getting back to the topic, doesn't feel "heroic" either.

Edited by Erian
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