EDIT to add PROOF:

Yeah with the current system in place, (NO DPS meter) its kind of hard to make an argument as to why you should be allowed to go to a raid.

This game is turning into a gear check instead of a bring the player mentality.

There is no way to prove that you are good enough to come unless you have the best gear.

This sucks and I wish they fix/change this soon. We need some way to assess damage.

Currently this makes the game feel less and less like an MMO..

TL: DR

Skill doesn't matter since you can't assess it. If you have better gear then me apparently you are a better player lol...

There is almost no skill involved in this game aside in PvP and maybe as a healer on 2-3 encounters. The only mini-challenges are things like hitting the turrets correctly on false emperor's second boss and interrupting IronFist. Not much of a challenge, but its very easy to see who's doing it right or wrong. Aside from that, healers have a bit of a challenge.

 

DPS and tanks are just pushing 5 buttons in the right order, and you can more or less eyeball if they're doing it right or wrong. (but its pretty damn hard to do it wrong).

 

So yeah, the entire game is a gear check. A DPS meter won't change that.

This is exactly why we need a DPS meter.

If as a dps you only press 5 buttons you are really hurting ur group dps wise and a player with worse gear will out dps you. However with the current set up its impossible to see that is the case.

Thank you.

There is almost no skill involved in this game aside in PvP and maybe as a healer on 2-3 encounters. The only mini-challenges are things like hitting the turrets correctly on false emperor's second boss and interrupting IronFist. Not much of a challenge, but its very easy to see who's doing it right or wrong. Aside from that, healers have a bit of a challenge.

DPS and tanks are just pushing 5 buttons in the right order, and you can more or less eyeball if they're doing it right or wrong. (but its pretty damn hard to do it wrong).

So yeah, the entire game is a gear check. A DPS meter won't change that.

There is almost no skill involved in this game aside in PvP and maybe as a healer on 2-3 encounters. The only mini-challenges are things like hitting the turrets correctly on false emperor's second boss and interrupting IronFist. Not much of a challenge, but its very easy to see who's doing it right or wrong. Aside from that, healers have a bit of a challenge.

 

DPS and tanks are just pushing 5 buttons in the right order, and you can more or less eyeball if they're doing it right or wrong. (but its pretty damn hard to do it wrong).

 

So yeah, the entire game is a gear check. A DPS meter won't change that.

This is exactly why we need a DPS meter.

If as a dps you only press 5 buttons you are really hurting ur group dps wise and a player with worse gear will out dps you. However with the current set up its impossible to see that is the case.

Thank you.

This is exactly why we need a DPS meter.

 

If as a dps you only press 5 buttons you are really hurting ur group dps wise and a player with worse gear will out dps you. However with the current set up its impossible to see that is the case.

 

Thank you.

::whoosh::

Simple answer to ex-WoW kiddy eliteists...

1) NO DPS METER

2) NO GEAR SCORE

GOD! If i ever see message spam 'Making group to xxxx ./w GS and Achiev..' I'll scream!!

But I fear BW will bow to the kids in this game, as did Blizz... I suppose, we'll get a kung Fu Ewok soon.... Whooooo! I want 1... plz! giv gold!!

Simple answer to ex-WoW kiddy eliteists...

 

1) NO DPS METER

2) NO GEAR SCORE

 

GOD! If i ever see message spam 'Making group to xxxx ./w GS and Achiev..' I'll scream!!

 

But I fear BW will bow to the kids in this game, as did Blizz... I suppose, we'll get a kung Fu Ewok soon.... Whooooo! I want 1... plz! giv gold!!

Unfortunately by not having a DPS meter you are basically setting up 2)

People won't care about anything but your gear its already happening...

I agree with the OP

We need a dps meter, even though most classes are not that complex I still see a lot of people just doing stupid things like maul spam in endgame pve, a dps meter would at least provide the tool to let the others see how well their teammates are performing and in the case of a guild whose roster is too full allowing the operation leaders to bring their best team instead of your most geared team.

Unfortunately by not having a DPS meter you are basically setting up 2)

 

People won't care about anything but your gear its already happening...

Explain to me how come most other MMOs that don't have dps meters never turn into gearchecks?

Maybe the problem isn't the lack of DPS meter, but the poor wow-clone game design? Hell, don't even need to go that far. Having combat animations that are actually visible would be a start @.@

I agree with the OP

 

We need a dps meter, even though most classes are not that complex I still see a lot of people just doing stupid things like maul spam in endgame pve, a dps meter would at least provide the tool to let the others see how well their teammates are performing and in the case of a guild whose roster is too full allowing the operation leaders to bring their best team instead of your most geared team.

It gives rise to many issue imo

Simple answer to ex-WoW kiddy eliteists...

 

1) NO DPS METER

2) NO GEAR SCORE

 

GOD! If i ever see message spam 'Making group to xxxx ./w GS and Achiev..' I'll scream!!

 

But I fear BW will bow to the kids in this game, as did Blizz... I suppose, we'll get a kung Fu Ewok soon.... Whooooo! I want 1... plz! giv gold!!

How does a dps meter have anything to do with GS/Achiev? In a difficult fight if you can't perform you shouldn't be there. The only way to see this objectively is with meters. Not to mention many of us like to optimize our rotations without having to guess which abilities actually work the way the tooltip says?

Just enable it only for Hard/Nightmare encounters where it would be needed and while you are solo fighting the training dummy that should be installed in our ships!

How does a dps meter have anything to do with GS/Achiev? In a difficult fight if you can't perform you shouldn't be there. The only way to see this objectively is with meters. Not to mention many of us like to optimize our rotations without having to guess which abilities actually work the way the tooltip says?

 

Just enable it only for Hard/Nightmare encounters where it would be needed and while you are solo fighting the training dummy that should be installed in our ships!

This would be a compromise I'd be willing to live with.

EDIT to add PROOF:

 

Yeah with the current system in place, (NO DPS meter) its kind of hard to make an argument as to why you should be allowed to go to a raid...

I still play WoW and my Guild is currently working in Heroic Modes in Dragon Soul. I could qualify as a well rounded PvE player.

I am not at end game level in SWTOR, I am not even in a Guild yet! However, if it happens that I start doing End Game I will be sure that the people in my team are my online FRIENDS. If they are my friends I will trust them. I'll believe that they are doing as much as they possible can to complete the operation and if we wipe, well, we dust off and try again.

A performance meter makes sense if you are raiding with strangers, people who you don't trust. For me, if we are working together in the gearing process, and when we face end game the boss dies, that is what matters for me. I don't need a DPS meter for that.

I'm a player who is also concurrently raiding in WoW and SW:TOR. I've done some Ops with some friends from that game, and some RL friends who had dropped WoW some time ago.

Despite having full trust in their abilities and dedication, I'd still like a DPS meter, or some kind of combat log. I recall reading that they were putting a combat log back in, which would allow for some kind of parsing of the numbers with third-party software - it would be enough for me to have the capacity to measure that with some dedication on my part, I don't need to measure every last PUG DPS to see where things are going wrong.

It's a real pain when my brother is trying to figure out whether Carnage or Annihilation spec is actually putting out better DPS, and there is zero way to tell except "Things may be dying faster (?)".

This is of course only an issue once you start fighting bosses that have enrage timers - before then, a DPS player can look at all his shiny tools and not play with any of them, or have a terrible spec (or no spec!), and get carried by a tank and healer that last long enough. It's terribly frustrating to not know who the weak link or what the weak spec is, except through subjective experimentation with no verifiable data.

Explain to me how come most other MMOs that don't have dps meters never turn into gearchecks?

 

Maybe the problem isn't the lack of DPS meter, but the poor wow-clone game design? Hell, don't even need to go that far. Having combat animations that are actually visible would be a start @.@

Even back in EQ we parsed combat logs to check performance. There were no addons, at least at the time, for EQ, to measure damage/healing in-game - the game wrote a log file that you then ran through a parser. We did this to help figure out why we were wiping on some fights. We did this even in-guild with regular raiders to find out who wasn't performing enough and either correcting that or replacing them (if it was hopeless).

A performance meter makes sense if you are raiding with strangers, people who you don't trust.

Even with a guild of people you know, it still makes sense so you can figure out where you are going wrong if you are wiping. Without any feedback from the game, you're just firing shots in the dark.

A performance meter makes sense if you are raiding with strangers, people who you don't trust. For me, if we are working together in the gearing process, and when we face end game the boss dies, that is what matters for me. I don't need a DPS meter for that.

Who I'm raiding with doesn't matter. If we're not finishing a fight before an enrage timer I want to see where we can improve. A wipe is VERY rarely one person's fault, especially when it is due to hitting an enrage timer. If we as a raid need 800 more dps it doesn't matter if the dps improvement is spread between 8 players each doing 100dps more or if it is 1 player using a stim+adrenal and cleaning up their rotation to gain 800dps. The net result is the same, a win.

Personally I want to know if I'm not performing as well as I should so I can find ways to improve. In a progression raid it is every single player's responsibility to do everything they can to eek out every bit of performance they can. Without meters performance is binary win/loss and completely disregards any incremental improvements players make.

Trust is the key word in my post, I trust that whoever is raiding with me is trying his or her best, this mean researching specs and rotations and "testing" them enough. You can evaluate if a particular rotation or spec works experimenting with elite mobs about your level. You can use the tooltip as starting point and think about a particular sequence that makes sense.

As a reference, in WoW, with the development of TankSpot, Elitist Jerks, Icy Veins and other sites, the joy (and the challenge) of the experimentation and development of your own strategies was taken out of the game. Everybody ended doing the fights the same (and apparently unique) way. That is boring.

DPS meters can be a Pandora's Box, people would end focusing more in topping the charts than in reacting to the mechanics. If a good Healer keeps players up people can eat a lot of damage only to stay on the boss more time. A player like that topping the meters is definitely not a good player.

Personally, half the fun in raiding is the metagame. Going over log parses and seeing where things can be improved. How exactly do those of you against meters/parsing plan to help other players improve without having some sort of visual to compare performances with? Loving comments over VoIP? Praying?

I'll stick with math.

Enrage timers are the only current skill check, my static doesnt hit enrage timers on any content, but ive pugged the same instance and have hit the enrage timer on every boss.

DPS meters are needed, not only to prove if certain specs fail but if dps arent carrying their weight

Simple answer to ex-WoW kiddy eliteists...

 

1) NO DPS METER

2) NO GEAR SCORE

 

GOD! If i ever see message spam 'Making group to xxxx ./w GS and Achiev..' I'll scream!!

 

But I fear BW will bow to the kids in this game, as did Blizz... I suppose, we'll get a kung Fu Ewok soon.... Whooooo! I want 1... plz! giv gold!!

So raid leaders are just supposed to guess who is performing well DPS/Heal wise. Once the encounters become more difficult, raid leaders will need to be able to assess talent. You can't do that in this game without a combat log.

One of the main problems that exists outside of hardcore raiding progression guilds is players who THINK they are gearing and playing correctly when they are not. In TOR right now, a DPSer may think he needs X and Y stat, that priority rotation should be A,B,C when in reality that is -not- the optimal way to DPS. He could have a static DPS partner who is really good, and so they either don't see enrages in HM FPs or they see it just a little bit. Now does this DPSer say "hey, I must be playing optimally because we're not hitting enrages or just at the end." They might be carried.

This is a problem.

There are two options for PUG and raid leaders to go about DPS checks. The first is the inclusion of a meter so that we can see where DPS is at and who needs to improve in which fights. The second is monotonous gear checks. I've already started doing this in HM FPs. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar DPSer. Does this mean that i believe gear is the only indication of a -skilled- player? Absolutely not. But until I get a meter, and I don't know the person I'm grouped with, the quality of their gear, and more importantly, the choice in secondary stats is the only indication of how good they are.

Meters or gear score. Take your pick. There is no third option. OP leaders are doing gear checks right now. Do you want that changed?

I'm all for DPS meters, it helps me perform to my best and helps me keep bads out of my raids.

Gearscore is retarded, I hope they stay away from this.

Enrage timers are the only current skill check, my static doesnt hit enrage timers on any content, but ive pugged the same instance and have hit the enrage timer on every boss.

 

DPS meters are needed, not only to prove if certain specs fail but if dps arent carrying their weight

Don't PuG then.

In my experience, most of the issues with PuGs are related with people not knowing that fire is bad and that they need to stay away from it, than with their ability to keep repeating a mind numbing sequence of abilities (that, at the end, will be what a DPS meter will measure). The only way that you can measure awareness is if the player is still alive at the end of the encounter.

Again, a WoW example. I raid as a Melee DPS. Let's consider a fight like Alysrazor in Firelands. I was in charge of interrupting a specific spell from some adds. My DPS in that fight was a meager 13-14k, because, well, I was interrupting.

I haven't done any end game in SWTOR yet, so I can't tell, but in a well designed encounter some classes would have a specific role (for example, range focusing in adds) and the difference between a kill or a wipe will be in how well people fulfill that role and not in sheer DPS. If dumb people start using DPS meters as the single measure of performance these range players will allow the adds to overwhelm the party only to focus their damage in the boss and top the DPS charts in the resulting wipe.

Again, a WoW example. I raid as a Melee DPS. Let's consider a fight like Alysrazor in Firelands. I was in charge of interrupting a specific spell from some adds. My DPS in that fight was a meager 13-14k, because, well, I was interrupting.

This is a terrible example to use. Alysrazor is not about raw DPS, and your raid leader knows this if he is any good. Nobody cares about your DPS on Alysrazor if you're supposed to be interrupting the casters. That does not change the need for DPS meters and other addons in the game.