This thread has been moved out of the Public Test Server Forum to allow for feedback and reports directly related to testing the Game Update 2.3 content listed in Patch Notes.

 

Threads created to request future updates or discuss the state of the live servers do not belong in the PTS Forum and should be created in other subforums. Thanks for your understanding!

 

Ya know... when I saw a Bioware post in this thread I thought maybe one of you took time out of your busy day to communicate with your fanbase on this issue. Tell us we're right and you're working on it. Tell us we're wrong and here's why.

 

I was wrong of course. If any of you devs ever wonder why many feel you don't listen and don't care, reread Amber's post. It's a huge middle finger to everyone who cares about this class and this game.

 

"oh gee wiz, let me just sweep this unsightly garbage off the forum... chunk that down to the slum forum where the poor people post. Nobody cares what they write anyway. Back to what's important: new dye colors!!!!!"

Edited July 14, 2013 by Akuryu

Besides, as a general rule of thumb, melees are always ahead of ranged classes in terms of burst damage because as part of internal balancing, giving mega-bursts to ranged classes that has reliable level of defenses as well is the surest way of making an OP class -- which is exactly what happened in the past with Pyros.

 

Not to be a jerk here, but what defenses does a pyro powertech have? Please don't say 'heavy armor' or you'll get laughed out of this thread. Second, we are not much of a ranged class, when our best abilities are 10M or less. (Incendiary missile, thermal det, and lets not forget point blank range rocket punch and interrupt).

 

Have you played the spec or even looked in the tree? Sorry man, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

We get energy shield, on a 2 minute CD. The whole class gets that. Nothing else. Every other tree has a great defensive CD high up in the tree. Pyro does not have anything else to prevent or mitigate damage.

 

What we're asking for is a tad bit more burst. That could be another 4-5% rail damage to boost us up to 7K. It could be a higher critical hit chance working in synergy with other skills (i.e. stacking). Remember, more than half the time rail shot on pyrotecha does NOT crit, and it hits for 3K. They could skip that and fix thermal detonator, because a 12 second dot ticking for 100 damage is pointless.

 

The top tier skills of the pyro tree are worthless. People picking bottom tier tank and AP skills perform better in operations AND PVP. There are NO defenses in the top of our tree.

 

I understand some of you want to keep your classes stronger than anyone else's. I tell you that the game is more fun when there is variety to the warzones.

Lets this class rest in peace. Do not resurrect it, its dead, like dps operative.

yoomazir = Alex Modny? would explain a lot

Maybe give VG/PTs an cd that makes the immune to knockbacks for 3-5 seconds? Unique utilty skill that fits with the whole being stable thing.

need burst or more survivability it's that simple.. just pick one and give us NOW!

i dont see why we cant have either of those now that most have both.

need burst or more survivability it's that simple.. just pick one and give us NOW!

i dont see why we cant have either of those now that most have both.

 

I'll take survivability the most.

 

Any match played without at least two healers is a non-stop ride on the med-center merry-go-round.

 

We require too much healer attention to play, and to be honest the DPS specs of our class really aren't worth it.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

Here's another protip: No one plays madness/balance anymore. Thank god it's only 1 of 3 options. To have a whole class compared to madness/balance... I wouldn't play that **** either (and probably why my PT is still lvl 50 out of 7 other 55's - He's currently my slicing *****)

 

A "ranged" is a "ranged" when you are at freedom to hit someone while that someone cannot reach you, whether it be 10m or 100m. The effective range being 10m means shi* when I can dance circles around most melee classes, maintaining around 7~8m distance when he's slowed, not to mention making fools out of Force users when engaged after their Force Leap is on cooldown, and just peckering away with the basic attack alone can cut down at least 3~5k HP until the gap closes again.

 

Says who? You?

 

Who are you anyway?

 

(ps) Here's a pro tip from the other perspective: Vanguards/Pyros are classes very similar to Balance/Madness Shadow/Sins in principle. They have a 'hybrid' type of management where you abide by a simple rule; "close in and finish the fight fast against ranged, kite away and take the fight long against melees"

 

If you people are thinking that it should be doing the same thing as Mara/Sents or Sniper/Slingers -- and the class needs to be at the same pure damage output as those pure DPS classes, then you are basically clueless as to what a PT/Vanguard should be doing in combat -- in which case, I can understand why ridiculous threads like this keep appearing.

Edited July 15, 2013 by BlackSpin

Here's another protip: No one plays madness/balance anymore. Thank god it's only 1 of 3 options. To have a whole class compared to madness/balance... I wouldn't play that **** either (and probably why my PT is still lvl 50 out of 7 other 55's - He's currently my slicing *****)

 

Right, because Balance/Madness isn't as easy-mode as the other two where any ham-fisted, tactically deprived individual can still mash a few buttons and survive long enough to get the illusion that they're actually doing something.

 

If we define "efficiency" as "how easy it is to play, so that any newbie can grab it and still see some kind of results', then certainly Balance/Madness is not as efficient as the other two. But it is still everybit as effective as the other two, and the potential for damage is much greater than the other two as well -- since in the long term, the highest factor of deal-loss for melee classes is literally the 'time spent chasing around something'.

 

Balance/Madness shadow/sins are significantly boosted in their ranged DoT attacks, but unfortunately don't get to wave around the 30m range like sorc/sages. They don't get as much boost in survivability or melee attacks as well. Naturally the entire combat management revolves around in-and-out skirmishes, and especially against other powerful melees, one needs to learn how to kite with 10m ranged attacks. Is it any wonder why terribads have no clue as to how to use this spec?

 

 

Now, why am I speaking of Balance/Madness when we're talking about Pyro/Assault? Because the latter shares the exact same philosophy as the former. The reason why you people have problems with Pyro/Assault is the exact same reasons why people with lower PvP skillsets try to stay away from Balance/Madness.

 

There are three advanced classes that all share the same philosophy in this game, Pyro/Assault is one of them, Balance/Madness shadow/sins are the second, and the third is Scrapper/Concealment Scoundrel/Ops.

 

All of them have significantly higher damage capacity than the other two builds, all of them require the delicate skirmishing type of combat management, and thus all of them are significantly more difficult to play than the other two because most of its effectiveness requires the human factor at a certain level: experience, creativity, and hard practice.

 

It is actually a very telling fact that many people consider all of them to be gimped in some way. Simply that many people just don't get it.

 

Read my sig, and then think about if you really know the class well enough. Sure, you may want to think you have once known how to manage it in the ancient times where it could ROFLstomp anyone with 6k initial bursts and 4k powers following up with 0.5k dots ticking at the same time by using just two buttons, when everyone was on average 18~19k HP... but things changed.

 

You people are simply basking in the former glory days, and ranting the spec is gimped because it can't do what it used to do, back in the day when they were admittedly OP. How much did you really try and adapt to the new reality?

Edited July 15, 2013 by kweassa

I think you all are playing the powertechs/vanguards in the wrong way. I have been playing a vanguard for quite some time now and I feel they are one of the strongest role players in the game. I mean in a group situation having a pull+a stun every 45 secs is soooo *********** op it's crazy. On top of that you can be basically unkillable if you time your defensive cooldowns right and learn when to switch cells. I mostly play tactics in pub wz's and have no trouble topping the dps/kills charts every match. I mean a tactics vanguard has sooooo much utility and works really really well with a gunslinger or a commando dps. I think you all should relook at the way you all play this class. For one if you think about a tropper in SW lore they are not solo players. You need a group to pull out the vanguards full potential using his stuns/constant harras/spell blocks/pull. I would suggest reworking your combo's as well as I am able to do a good deal of burst with my 4 key combo. I know the flames are gonna come from this post and that is understandable when you are frusterated. Think about looking at the class as a swiss army knife and less as a katana sword and I think you will see better results. Powertechs/Vanguards are not designed for selfish play.

Bullshi*.

 

Of the four advanced classes that utilize ranged attacks as their main mode of damage, PT/Vanguards have the highest survivability and utility. Among the three other ranged classes, Sorc/Sages and Sniper/Slingers have a clear edge over PT/Vanguards in terms of pure damage, but the former is the weakest in terms of survival by fat, the latter gives up all mobility and needs to become a biological turret to do so.... and as for the rest two, Merc/Commandos have been complaining about their shaky and unstable mode of damage dealing for ages.

 

Among them, only the Sniper class can more or less gain 8~10k hits under right conditions, and even TK/Lightning sage/sorcs can't really do that, since their mode of damage is from continuous cycling of 4k~5k attacks.

 

If we bring in the other melee classes, Assasin/Shadows SOMETIMES get 8~10k hits but not as often as you might think, and the only case where anyone dishes out hits at 8k at regular intervals are Focus/Rage smash/sweepers, only available to two of the 8 advanced classes.. and being the one-trick pony is by itself an internal penalty to all of them, thriving in well performing teams, but just deadweight in even the slightest shaky teams.

 

Besides, as a general rule of thumb, melees are always ahead of ranged classes in terms of burst damage because as part of internal balancing, giving mega-bursts to ranged classes that has reliable level of defenses as well is the surest way of making an OP class -- which is exactly what happened in the past with Pyros.

 

This is wrong in so many ways and in so many aspects...

 

As a starter, I would not compare PT with ranged classes, because you are always in < 10m range while atking an enemy and within 4m to be optimal. PT is a melee class with ranged atks not a ranged class with melee atks.

 

Also, how does PT have better suriviability than sorc, sniper or even merc? Sorc has on demand bubble that sucks 6-7K damage, instant heal and 2 cast heals plus cleanse, mezs, and that's as dps. Snipers have ballistic dampers, extreme range, ability to mez target multiple times and roll. Mercs, push, extreme slow (electro net) instant heal and cleanse, plus they share other PT defensive CDs except kolto. All fully ranged classes are light years ahead of PT in survivability, not to mention that they are Fully ranged.

 

Again, the comparison should be with melee classes (cuz that's where you will be in combat) and the gap is just astronomical here compared to a sin, marauder or jugg. Even operatives have it better due to the number of CCs they have and stealth.

 

As you said, melee classes need to be a head in burst. Are PTs ahead of anyone in burst? All PTs do now is spread dots, which can look fancy on the score board, but does little in terms of capturing/defending objectives.

This thread has been moved out of the Public Test Server Forum to allow for feedback and reports directly related to testing the Game Update 2.3 content listed in Patch Notes.

 

Threads created to request future updates or discuss the state of the live servers do not belong in the PTS Forum and should be created in other subforums. Thanks for your understanding!

 

Hi Amber,

 

While keeping the thread alive is appreciated, it was not out of place in PTS. It was there in PTS requesting either updates with 2.3 or response. Moving the thread to here without neither does not do BW or the community any service. Why do not respond "we are re-evaluating the class performance. Version 2.3 will not include class changes. Expect changes in version 2.4." Simple, straight forward and most importantly does not feel like you are telling the community "buzz off?"

I reckon PT/VG just need an execute. Seems a bit unfair that Jugg/Guard and Shadow/Sin (two classes that fill exact same roles) have one and PT/VG dont. I mean what do they bring to the table that makes up for an execute. Its killing power that those dps PT/VG are missing, being able to finish off an opponent.

Right, because Balance/Madness isn't as easy-mode as the other two where any ham-fisted, tactically deprived individual can still mash a few buttons and survive long enough to get the illusion that they're actually doing something.

 

If we define "efficiency" as "how easy it is to play, so that any newbie can grab it and still see some kind of results', then certainly Balance/Madness is not as efficient as the other two. But it is still everybit as effective as the other two, and the potential for damage is much greater than the other two as well -- since in the long term, the highest factor of deal-loss for melee classes is literally the 'time spent chasing around something'.

 

Balance/Madness shadow/sins are significantly boosted in their ranged DoT attacks, but unfortunately don't get to wave around the 30m range like sorc/sages. They don't get as much boost in survivability or melee attacks as well. Naturally the entire combat management revolves around in-and-out skirmishes, and especially against other powerful melees, one needs to learn how to kite with 10m ranged attacks. Is it any wonder why terribads have no clue as to how to use this spec?

 

 

Now, why am I speaking of Balance/Madness when we're talking about Pyro/Assault? Because the latter shares the exact same philosophy as the former. The reason why you people have problems with Pyro/Assault is the exact same reasons why people with lower PvP skillsets try to stay away from Balance/Madness.

 

There are three advanced classes that all share the same philosophy in this game, Pyro/Assault is one of them, Balance/Madness shadow/sins are the second, and the third is Scrapper/Concealment Scoundrel/Ops.

 

All of them have significantly higher damage capacity than the other two builds, all of them require the delicate skirmishing type of combat management, and thus all of them are significantly more difficult to play than the other two because most of its effectiveness requires the human factor at a certain level: experience, creativity, and hard practice.

 

It is actually a very telling fact that many people consider all of them to be gimped in some way. Simply that many people just don't get it.

 

Read my sig, and then think about if you really know the class well enough. Sure, you may want to think you have once known how to manage it in the ancient times where it could ROFLstomp anyone with 6k initial bursts and 4k powers following up with 0.5k dots ticking at the same time by using just two buttons, when everyone was on average 18~19k HP... but things changed.

 

You people are simply basking in the former glory days, and ranting the spec is gimped because it can't do what it used to do, back in the day when they were admittedly OP. How much did you really try and adapt to the new reality?

 

If you want us to be like other DOT specs, you're going to have to throw us a bone on the defenses. Like, adding a 1% self heal when a DOT crits to 'automated defenses'. Or, give us something like 'cull' in our tree instead of the 'degauss'.

 

We're a half assed dot spec at best compared to the others. We have one two-minute energy shield that lasts for six seconds for a defensive CD.

 

I'm not asking for 1.7. I can deal with the lower CGC. I don't want an easy mode. What I can't deal with is the lack of protection and relying on a healer to survive more than 8 seconds. The spec needs just a couple of quality of life tweaks and it will be just fine.

 

And yes. I've read your sig and listened to your sanctimonious garbage in many threads. We get it. You know everything and are the best player ever in the whole world. Bioware never makes mistakes with nerfs or *********** class design, they are perfect! The people who brought us bolster and jacked up the PVP suit mods know more about the classes than the people playing them for years.

 

But wait! Apparently you haven't played pyro powertech, or you would know we get one and only one defensive CD every two minutes. If you played it, you wouldn't compare it to other DOT class specs, because we don't have any skills to capitalize on our three DOTS (no cull or self heal). There's no real synergy, it was thrown in half *** with no real thought to it. If you played it, you would realize that one of our DOTS costs 24 heat by itself to apply, and that it shouldn't cost that much. DOT classes shouldn't nearly overheat in one *********** rotation of applying DOTS. Show me one that does.

 

You want other people to play with you in warzones, you're going to have to accept that more than two or three PVP classes need to be competitive in ranked warzones. Snipers bore me. OP Healers are a snooze fest. Smashers are easy mode destroyers and not fun. Fix my PT already.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

If you want us to be like other DOT specs, you're going to have to throw us a bone on the defenses. Like, adding a 1% self heal when a DOT crits to 'automated defenses'. Or, give us something like 'cull' in our tree instead of the 'degauss'.

 

We're a half assed dot spec at best compared to the others. We have one two-minute energy shield that lasts for six seconds for a defensive CD.

 

I'm not asking for 1.7. I can deal with the lower CGC. I don't want an easy mode. What I can't deal with is the lack of protection and relying on a healer to survive more than 8 seconds. The spec needs just a couple of quality of life tweaks and it will be just fine.

 

And yes. I've read your sig and listened to your sanctimonious garbage in many threads. We get it. You know everything and are the best player ever in the whole world. Bioware never makes mistakes with nerfs or *********** class design, they are perfect! The people who brought us bolster and jacked up the PVP suit mods know more about the classes than the people playing them for years.

 

But wait! Apparently you haven't played pyro powertech, or you would know we get one and only one defensive CD every two minutes. If you played it, you wouldn't compare it to other DOT class specs, because we don't have any skills to capitalize on our three DOTS (no cull or self heal). There's no real synergy, it was thrown in half *** with no real thought to it. If you played it, you would realize that one of our DOTS costs 24 heat by itself to apply, and that it shouldn't cost that much. DOT classes shouldn't nearly overheat in one *********** rotation of applying DOTS. Show me one that does.

 

You want other people to play with you in warzones, you're going to have to accept that more than two or three PVP classes need to be competitive in ranked warzones. Snipers bore me. OP Healers are a snooze fest. Smashers are easy mode destroyers and not fun. Fix my PT already.

 

I agree with this, especially the last paragraph.

easiest fix:

 

Double the damage done by flame burst, increase the dot damage of CGC by 200%, then make a proc so that flame bursting a burning target makes your next flame burst free.

 

1 button rotation heaven.

 

On a serious note, the damage of railshot itself definitely needs to be increased, 5-6k doesn't really compare to other classes getting 9k+ mauls, 9k+ ambushes, 9k+ smashes, etc. A hard hitting ability is definitely something that PT is lacking, without a hard hitting ability, it's just a weak dot spec that can be cleansed.

Edited July 15, 2013 by SomeJagoff

what they fail to see that since they made op healers so popular your targets will pretty much allways get cleanses and have 2-4 hots on them.. so how are you supposed to be effective as a dot class in PvP? not only is it hard to kill anything when they are around you're the easiest kill in there.... no other class depend so much on healer + guard as assault/pyro does.

add a cull/wounding shot comparable ability.

bring incandiary round/missile back to 30m range and add a 50% snare or add a 15% speed increase to pyro/AS as its the only spec with only a 30% snare available.

make burnout add a 5% healdebuff to the target for every dot applied as they are easily cleansable.

add some defensive options.

what they fail to see that since they made op healers so popular your targets will pretty much allways get cleanses and have 2-4 hots on them.. so how are you supposed to be effective as a dot class in PvP? not only is it hard to kill anything when they are around you're the easiest kill in there.... no other class depend so much on healer + guard as assault/pyro does.

 

Watchman spec is weaker than assault. You statement about "no other class depend so much on healer + guard" is false. Pyro PT is not the worst spec for a class by a long shot. Watchman spec, assault spec commando, balance spec jedi shadow, and vigilance are all worse specs than pyro PT.

Watchman spec is weaker than assault. You statement about "no other class depend so much on healer + guard" is false. Pyro PT is not the worst spec for a class by a long shot. Watchman spec, assault spec commando, balance spec jedi shadow, and vigilance are all worse specs than pyro PT.

 

all of wich have other viable specs.

Vanguards wants to be OP again like a infiltration shadows now? "/boohoo emote" http://www.picshare.ru/view/2515369/

Only 1 can be OP! Oh wait i forgot about guardian focus tree? Okay 2.

Edited July 15, 2013 by helpmewin

Vanguards wants to be OP again like a infiltration shadows now? "/boohoo emote" http://www.picshare.ru/view/2515369/

Only 1 can be OP! Oh wait i forgot about guardian focus tree? Okay 2.

 

You also forgot about arsenal/gunnery. They can burst like assault used to while being at range and having the mobility assault never had pre 2.0. Takes a bit longer to set up but after that it's bye bye. So make it 3.

 

Oops, almost forgot about snipers. Make it 4, 5, and 6 because that's a class with 3 functional and op/powerful skill trees. And I am sure I am forgetting something.

You also forgot about arsenal/gunnery. They can burst like assault used to while being at range and having the mobility assault never had pre 2.0. Takes a bit longer to set up but after that it's bye bye. So make it 3.

 

Oops, almost forgot about snipers. Make it 4, 5, and 6 because that's a class with 3 functional and op/powerful skill trees. And I am sure I am forgetting something.

 

Really?

...and having the mobility assault never had pre 2.0.

 

 

No.

Wrong - We're talking about PvP here. This wall of text is useless. Madness/Balance takes perfect play and setup to achieve sub par to "just okay" damage in it's current state. Obviously, in PvP, this never happens. And, by the way, the reference to your signature screams elitism. You think it allows you to discount any opinion but your own? You don't know me.

 

The fact is, PTs now do less damage compared to other classes; and are squishy for an "in your face," melee-ish class, with no "notable" defensive cooldowns. It takes more effort for a good team to keep PTs alive with no reward. This is why they have been shelved.

 

Right, because Balance/Madness isn't as easy-mode as the other two where any ham-fisted, tactically deprived individual can still mash a few buttons and survive long enough to get the illusion that they're actually doing something.

 

If we define "efficiency" as "how easy it is to play, so that any newbie can grab it and still see some kind of results', then certainly Balance/Madness is not as efficient as the other two. But it is still everybit as effective as the other two, and the potential for damage is much greater than the other two as well -- since in the long term, the highest factor of deal-loss for melee classes is literally the 'time spent chasing around something'.

 

Balance/Madness shadow/sins are significantly boosted in their ranged DoT attacks, but unfortunately don't get to wave around the 30m range like sorc/sages. They don't get as much boost in survivability or melee attacks as well. Naturally the entire combat management revolves around in-and-out skirmishes, and especially against other powerful melees, one needs to learn how to kite with 10m ranged attacks. Is it any wonder why terribads have no clue as to how to use this spec?

 

 

Now, why am I speaking of Balance/Madness when we're talking about Pyro/Assault? Because the latter shares the exact same philosophy as the former. The reason why you people have problems with Pyro/Assault is the exact same reasons why people with lower PvP skillsets try to stay away from Balance/Madness.

 

There are three advanced classes that all share the same philosophy in this game, Pyro/Assault is one of them, Balance/Madness shadow/sins are the second, and the third is Scrapper/Concealment Scoundrel/Ops.

 

All of them have significantly higher damage capacity than the other two builds, all of them require the delicate skirmishing type of combat management, and thus all of them are significantly more difficult to play than the other two because most of its effectiveness requires the human factor at a certain level: experience, creativity, and hard practice.

 

It is actually a very telling fact that many people consider all of them to be gimped in some way. Simply that many people just don't get it.

 

Read my sig, and then think about if you really know the class well enough. Sure, you may want to think you have once known how to manage it in the ancient times where it could ROFLstomp anyone with 6k initial bursts and 4k powers following up with 0.5k dots ticking at the same time by using just two buttons, when everyone was on average 18~19k HP... but things changed.

 

You people are simply basking in the former glory days, and ranting the spec is gimped because it can't do what it used to do, back in the day when they were admittedly OP. How much did you really try and adapt to the new reality?