In order to facilitate an active thread with in our player base, I feel it's important to keep discussion going with prompts. The current prompt is:

 

Why are you still playing a Concealment Operative? If you were and stopped, why?

 

1.1.1 Patch Notes

1/31/2012

• Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active. [Nerf - Originally 50%]
  
• Jarring Strike: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds. [Nerf - Originally 3 seconds.]
  
• Hidden Strike: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP. [Nerf - Obvious!]
  

 

Game Update 1.2 - Legacy

4/12/2012

• Backstab now has a 12-second cooldown and deals approximately 5% more damage. [Nerf - Originally 8 seconds.]
  
• Hidden Strike now has a 7.5-second cooldown. [Nerf - Originally no cooldown.]
  
• Culling has been redesigned and is now a 2-point skill. It no longer increases damage dealt to poisoned targets, but increases the Energy gained by Stim Boost and the damage dealt by Laceration and Collateral Strike. [Culling was a 3% increase to damage on poisoned targets. Not enough information to tell if buff or nerf.]
  
• Inclement Conditioning is now a 2-point skill. [Nerf - used to be a 3 point skill.]
  
• Flanking is a new 1-point skill located in Tier 3 of the skill tree. It reduces the Energy cost of Backstab by 5. [buff]
  
• Laceration now costs 10 Energy (down from 15) and deals approximately 10% less damage. [buff/Nerf.]
  
• Meticulously Kept Blades no longer increases Energy gained by Stim Boost. This effect is now part of Culling.[Nerf - Reduces effectiveness of a talent point without adding value.]
  
• Waylay now increases the damage dealt by Backstab. It is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree and requires Flanking. [buff]
  
• Corrosive Microbes now functions correctly. [buff]
  
• Lethality now increases critical chance by 1% per point. [Nerf - was 2%.]
  
• Razor Edge now increases Shiv damage by 4% per point. [Nerf - was 5%]
  

 

1.2.1 Patch Notes

4/24/2012

• Snipe's damage has been increased by approximately 5%. [buff: Lawl.]
  

 

Game Update 1.3: Allies

6/26/2012

• The animations for Laceration and Collateral Strike have been improved. [buff]
  
• Survival Training now increases healing received by 1% per point (down from 3% per point). [Nerf ]
  

 

Game Update 1.4: Terror From Beyond

9/26/2012

• Flash Bang no longer has an Energy cost. [buff]
  
• Cloaking Screen now has a 2 minute cooldown. [buff - 30 second reduction]
  
• Energy Screen has been redesigned. It is now called "Ghost." It finishes the cooldown on Sneak when you exit stealth and allows Sneak to be used out of stealth, increasing movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. It still removes the penalty to healing done and received caused by Cloaking Screen. [buff - New Class Feature.]
  
• Advanced Cloaking now additionally reduces the cooldown of Sneak by 7.5 seconds per point. It also now reduces the cooldown of Cloaking Screen by 15 seconds per point (down from 30 seconds per point). [Nerf - reduces effectiveness of a talent point.]
  

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

There have been twenty-two changes that impacted Concealment Operatives since Launch, outside of system changes such as changing how surge performed. Of those twenty-two changes, eleven were reductions in ability for the class. As of right now, the reality of a Concealment Operative in PVE is as follows:

• As a leveling class, the process is straight forwards and easy. Content goes quickly with the ability to stealth and sap.
  
• As a strictly PVE level 50 daily class, all missions can be completed with little issue.
  
• Hard Mode Flash Points are of little issue, but most groups over-gear them substantially now.
  
• Crowd Control is where it needs to be with a fine mixture of stuns, mezs, sleeps, slows, and a root which help in both PVP and PVE.
  
• AoE damage is good, without requiring any investment in skill points between Fragmentation Grenade, Carbine Burst, and Orbital Strike.
  
• Currently, 30% of our damage is tied up in Backstab, Hidden Strike, and Acid Blade which all have positional requirements. This is not counting the loss of the Armor Penetration bonus from the Acid Blade buff.
  
• In Melee range, a 50 with Rakata gear and mastery of rotations can obtain ~1350 dps. With best in slot, this can be pushed to ~1750 dps.
  
• At a range, a 50 with Rakata gear and maintaing an energy neutral rotation of Poison Dart, Snipe, Blaster Rifle and Orbital Strike can obtain ~700 dps. With best in slot, this can be pushed to ~900 dps.
  
• Subpar Operation Boss DPS by ten to fifteen percent. Every Melee Class performs better without positional requirements. All Operations require heavy movement which do no favors for the Agent.
  
• If Operation contributions would be judged based on making 'trash pulls' easier, the Concealment Operative would be judged as one of the best to have around due to his CC and AOE potential. Unfortunately, trash mobs are just that... trash.
  
• Low burst damage compared to current high performers, despite being billed as a burst class.
  
• Very high skill level and focus are required to manage rotation, adrenals/relic, energy level, and positional requirements compared to other classes that perform substantially better. When an Operative lands in an Energy Rut, it is incredibly hard to recover.
  
• The above, have created a stigma which have lead many raid groups from requesting rerolls if the player wants to DPS, or requesting a role change to Healer.
  

 

I wonder where we'll be in the new year. I can only hope that some improvements will come our way. The good news is, we can only go up. :| The bad news is we're pretty stagnant.

 

Note: I missed some nerfs!

 

If you don't mind i'm gonna add something that haven't been mentioned in the OP:

 

- Acid Blade now cost 15 energy (used to be 10 or 9 I don't remember tbh);

- Backstab now cost 5 energy if specced, 10 default (used to be free if specced);

- Sleep Dart duration in pvp is now 8 sec (used to be 10).

 

Pages 1 - 4 | General Discussion of topic.

Page 4 - ? | Why are you still playing a Concealment Operative? If you were and stopped, why?

Edited December 11, 2012 by KyoMamoru

Nicely summed ... +* to thread

The state of Operatives is very sad. I had to have the DPS Operative in my raid team switch to Powertech, because Operative DPS is just terrible.

I have a feeling that I may have hit the nail on the head a little too well in my first post. I don't think this thread is going to garner too many responses, which sucks. >> Edited December 9, 2012 by KyoMamoru

Brilliant post, sir.....I salute you. I have always wanted to write a post about the failures of Bioware's handling of this class but never could write something as eloquent and accurate as this.

 

It seems that everything Bioware does becomes a hindrance for our class, no survivability, the new stun bubbles that interrupt our rotation before its begun, to name a few. Although I'm talking primarily of PvP I still feel for my PvE brothers out there struggling with a loathsome rotation and awful energy management.

 

Regrettably I think the lack of replies to your post OP are indicative to the amount of people who still play this class. We live in hope (and I despair to use this word) that someone somewhere at Bioware is fighting for our cause. Until that time I shall be forced to play my Marauder until our miracle (again I shouldn't be using words like this) arrives, I expect they will be Buffed a couple more times before the Operative class ever will.

 

+10 for OP

 

 

P.s I will be bumping this post till the class is fixed.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Iyasu

In a recent Podcast about PVP on Torwars, Rob Hinkle stated (18:00 minute mark) that there will be no class balancing happening in 1.6. He went on to further state, that it will become apparent to everyone during a future patch why no minor balancing has occurred in 1.5 and 1.6. I believe that this is more or less confirmation on an increased in level cap. With new skills, skill ranks, talents, and skill points, the current level 50 balance will have absolutely no worth in being analyzed or altered. As a class that really is only missing a few alterations to really be great again, this does give great promise for the future of Operatives.

 

This is idea further fueled by the gift of Tionese gear to all level 50s in 1.6, allowing them to start performing dailies without having to gear up in Flashpoints or using the GTN. They've removed the Battlemaster step in PVP as well. These are both steps you'd want to do to smooth the content curve in preparation for new level content. Unfortunately, if my assumption is correct, Operatives will continue to be in their current state for at least another eight (Feb 5th) to fourteen weeks (March 19th.) These dates are based off the eight week holiday dev cycle, and the six week stated dev cycle for new patches. However, Feb or March is supposed to be bringing us a retooled Ilum and Open World PVP. I literally cringe at the thought of the balance patch being pushed beyond those dates.

Edited December 9, 2012 by KyoMamoru

So we're pinning all our hopes on the assumption 'balance will be restored' with the increase in lvl cap thus given more abilities, which are then hit with the preverbal bat a few patches until the moaning stops again.......

 

I'm such a pessimist.

 

If they gave us the same shield/god mode Vanguards/Sentinals have respectively, I'd be happy. Survivability is what we need most. I would even forgo a gap closer for it (for PvP).

Edited December 9, 2012 by Iyasu

I have a feeling that I may have hit the nail on the head a little too well in my first post. I don't think this thread is going to garner too many responses, which sucks. >>

 

It's more that we're an endangered species of a class and no one comes here to read anything.

The only thing that I remember about pre-nerf Operatives is that I, playing a PvP geared tank (heavy Endurance and Expertise) got torn down in one stunlock without a chance to retaliate outside a 2-minute CC break cooldown. Good riddance tbh.

 

I'm playing a post-nerf Scrapper Scoundrel (alternating with sawbones) and now levelling a Concealment Operative, and I'm satisfied. Granted, those are not my mains, but I enjoy playing them a lot.

 

That said, I do believe that they went a bit too far with nerfs.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Helig

The only thing that I remember about pre-nerf Operatives is that I, playing a PvP geared tank (heavy Endurance and Expertise) got torn down in one stunlock without a chance to retaliate outside a 2-minute CC break cooldown. Good riddance tbh.

 

There were a couple of reasons this was happening.

 

1) Expertise Adrenals stacked with Expertise power ups.

2) PVP Power Relics.

3) Without a Hidden Strike cooldown, Operatives could choose to utilize their defensive cooldown to pop out of combat, and hidden strike again. Doing so would, however, give your opponent full resolve due to the double hit of Jarring Strike.

4) Pre-nerf Surge was creating damage numbers that were way too high for the gear level we had then.

 

So in order for it to happen, an Operative was giving everything he had to kill you between relics, adrenals, and his defensive cooldown. Rather than fixing the major aspects of this that were working for all classes, the devs also nerfed the damage of Hidden Strike, the cool down of hidden strike, reduced the armor penetration of acid blade and also, they added four seconds of cooldown to back stab.

Edited December 9, 2012 by KyoMamoru

So true. I'm sure you remember. Everyone on this board and the scrapper board kept trying to tell all the people crying that it wasn't the class - it was the poor design of adrenals, relics and surge that caused us (i play scoundrel) to get hammered with the nerf bat. Also, not only did you put the target at full resolve using a back to back shoot first/hidden strike you also blew your vanish making you incredibly vulnerable after that opening.

Low burst damage compared to current high performers, despite being billed as a burst class.

 

BioWare, please see the importance of this statement.

 

8k smashes, 7k mauls, etc.

 

We are usually 4-5k Hidden Strikes and Backstabs if we are lucky, but nowhere near 8k. And smash's cooldown can be reduced using Viscous Slash, and also makes the next smash free.

 

We're still going to be seen as a "burst class" by all of the people who don't play an operative or a scoundrel, but in truth we are not as bursty as other melee ACs anymore.

 

Awesome thread, and done very professionally I might add. If anyone at BW ignores this, they are a moron and undeserving of our money.

Low burst damage compared to current high performers, despite being billed as a burst class.

 

BioWare, please see the importance of this statement.

 

8k smashes, 7k mauls, etc.

 

We are usually 4-5k Hidden Strikes and Backstabs if we are lucky, but nowhere near 8k. And smash's cooldown can be reduced using Viscous Slash, and also makes the next smash free.

 

We're still going to be seen as a "burst class" by all of the people who don't play an operative or a scoundrel, but in truth we are not as bursty as other melee ACs anymore.

 

Awesome thread, and done very professionally I might add. If anyone at BW ignores this, they are a moron and undeserving of our money.

 

The problem with this class is not the burst, really. It's the fact that it can do the burst combined with such a strong stunlock. Nerfing the ability to stunlock, while returning some of the overall damage to the burst, might be a viable option, but simply giving that damage back without changing the stun is not an option.

 

Heck, I still on occasion go from 100% to 20% over the course of a single stun on my fully WH geared KC Shadow and my Wh geared Gunslinger - and I know how to use my break at the right time in their sequence, too. Make no mistake - concealment/scrapper can still do *insane* and, frankly, a little bit overpowered amounts of burst. That doesn't mean other classes, like PTs, can't, too, but I just think it's silly to try to somehow claim that this class has poor damage by any means.

The problem with this class is not the burst, really. It's the fact that it can do the burst combined with such a strong stunlock. Nerfing the ability to stunlock, while returning some of the overall damage to the burst, might be a viable option, but simply giving that damage back without changing the stun is not an option.

 

Heck, I still on occasion go from 100% to 20% over the course of a single stun on my fully WH geared KC Shadow and my Wh geared Gunslinger - and I know how to use my break at the right time in their sequence, too. Make no mistake - concealment/scrapper can still do *insane* and, frankly, a little bit overpowered amounts of burst. That doesn't mean other classes, like PTs, can't, too, but I just think it's silly to try to somehow claim that this class has poor damage by any means.

 

Honestly, I see where you're going with that. And I mostly agree.

 

We need to be able to burst a little bit more, but if you take out stuns or nerf them a bit, we need more in the way of defense. If they give TOO much in the way of defense, we basically become a shadow/assassin, and that's not the intent either. So it's kind of a problem no matter which way you look at it.

 

We have literally nothing in the way of defense, especially vs force users, and they account for most of the population. Honestly, I'm one of the ones who does really well with the class, but we are like punching through a sheet of paper when it comes to defense.

 

On the flip side, I go against a competent shadow/assassin and he immediately goes immune to my tech damage and can do some really nasty burst damage as well, plus they have the same amount of stuns an operative does, minus the mez. Spike and Electrocute vs Hidden Strike and Debilitate, Spike can be used outside of stealth to be clear, if they play tank/hybrid spec. And in a fight of 2 equally skilled players, the shadow/assassin should pull out on top as well because they also have an execute, which Ops lack.

 

All in all, a shadow/assassin is much better outside of stealth and they don't really even need to rely for their opener (spike) to give them an edge. Ops/scrappers require stealth as part of our opening rotation to give us any edge and a good part of our defense as we're very poor outside of stealth, even though that's where a good Op/scrapper will spend most of our time.

 

That last paragraph is what I see being the biggest problem for BW to address, and do it in a manner that both makes the game more enjoyable playing an Op as well as not any less enjoyable to those falling victim to the Op.

Edited December 10, 2012 by randiesel

Concealment Operative was the first class I rolled, and I played as dps all the way up until we started doing hard mode EC, when I realized it just wasn't fun nor effective as I'd like, especially after all the nerfs. I switched to playing a sniper about that point (and went heals on the operative), and while I really love the sniper, I'd love for dps operatives to get some love in the future. I'm not going to get my hopes up for it, though.

The problem with this class is not the burst, really. It's the fact that it can do the burst combined with such a strong stunlock. Nerfing the ability to stunlock, while returning some of the overall damage to the burst, might be a viable option, but simply giving that damage back without changing the stun is not an option.

 

Honestly, this just isn't the case. Every AC in the game has significant cc in the forms of stuns, mezzes, roots, and snares. Ops are not significantly better and in many situations are worse. A PT can keep you stunned longer than an op (not mezzed, straight up stunned -- 6.5 - 7 secs vs 5.5). A carnage marauder can lock you down with roots far more effectively than an op. Sins have everything ops have and more. Ops frustrate the hell out of unsupported snipers not because they have better stunlock than other classes, but because they can start the battle in melee range, can easily cleanse sniper roots, and can use evasion to negate long-cast/channel heavy hitting sniper spells.

 

Heck, I still on occasion go from 100% to 20% over the course of a single stun on my fully WH geared KC Shadow and my Wh geared Gunslinger - and I know how to use my break at the right time in their sequence, too. Make no mistake - concealment/scrapper can still do *insane* and, frankly, a little bit overpowered amounts of burst. That doesn't mean other classes, like PTs, can't, too, but I just think it's silly to try to somehow claim that this class has poor damage by any means.

 

The only way I can see this happening is if both your cc break and resilience are down and the op crits hidden strike then backstab then explosive probe and the first lacerate. This brings up another point: crits. The op is completely dependent on crits to do worthwhile damage and has no way to proc them. Most geared ops will crit hidden strike 50-ish percent of the time and 65% on backstab. All other attacks will crit around 35% with no way to increase. The burstiest stunlock open I can think of is (acid blade) Hidden strike --> Debilitate --> lacerate --> Explosive probe --> (acid blade) backstab (this will wreck your energy management, btw). You'll crit on all of them (ignoring debilitate which does low damage) and do about 4.5k (+2k dot) + 3k + 3.5k + 4k (+2k dot) 19k damage to a medium armor target about .5 * .35 * .35 * .65 = ~4% of the time. You'll crit on the biggest 3 attacks ~ 11% of the time. You'll crit on just HS + BS about 30% of the time. It's a lottery with pretty dismal odds.

Game Update 1.2 - Legacy

4/12/2012

• Inclement Conditioning is now a 2-point skill. [Nerf - used to be a 3 point skill.]

 

Wouldn't this be a buff? If you gain the same benefit for a lower investment of skill points, it's a buff not a nerf.

 

• Meticulously Kept Blades no longer increases Energy gained by Stim Boost. This effect is now part of Culling.[Nerf - Reduces effectiveness of a talent point without adding value.]

 

You can't count this as a nerf when the effect was moved to another ability in the line. It's a push at worst.

 

Game Update 1.4: Terror From Beyond

9/26/2012

• Advanced Cloaking now additionally reduces the cooldown of Sneak by 7.5 seconds per point. It also now reduces the cooldown of Cloaking Screen by 15 seconds per point (down from 30 seconds per point). [Nerf - reduces effectiveness of a talent point.]
  

 

This is also not a nerf. The ability "Cloaking Screen" had it's base cooldown reduced with this patch. With Advanced Cloaking Screen, the total cooldown equals what it was in 1.3. A push in regards to Cloaking Screen for Concealment Ops. A buff for other Operatives.

PvE concealment can be looked at. But for PvP, it was a ridiculous spec and it deserved all those nerfs. 3 sec for jarring strike? Jesus Christ..

I do not think operatives are that far off the pack once they get the warrior AC's back in line, assasins also need a bit of a lookover pvp wise.

 

Two things i would like to see from playing a concealment operative in pvp and pve at times

 

 

Remove the acid blade activation skill - all hidden strikes and backstabs have that skill automatically added to it once it is trained in concealment (or remove the 10 energy it consumes) by removing the 10 energy it consumes it would allow opertives to pepper in an overload shot more frequently upping their dps to be on par with most classes

 

Add another in combat stealth - Add a skill similar to force camo, a non combat breaking stealth that gives us the chance to hidden stike more frequently, maybe on a 90 second cooldown. This would help both aspects of the play since operatives do not have an execute skill it would allow us to use our main opening attack more frequently, and for PVE it would give us a bit more DPS and allow us to pop stimboost without sacrificing a lacerate.

 

Oh and WATTUP COVERT!

Edited December 10, 2012 by dego-harmonium

Wouldn't this be a buff? If you gain the same benefit for a lower investment of skill points, it's a buff not a nerf.

 

i agree with the rest of your assessment, but wasn't it a 3 point skill for 6% endurance before and now a 2 point skill for only 4% endurance?

I do not think operatives are that far off the pack once they get the warrior AC's back in line, assasins also need a bit of a lookover pvp wise.

 

Two things i would like to see from playing a concealment operative in pvp and pve at times

 

 

Remove the acid blade activation skill - all hidden strikes and backstabs have that skill automatically added to it once it is trained in concealment (or remove the 10 energy it consumes) by removing the 10 energy it consumes it would allow opertives to pepper in an overload shot more frequently upping their dps to be on par with most classes

 

Add another in combat stealth - Add a skill similar to force camo, a non combat breaking stealth that gives us the chance to hidden stike more frequently, maybe on a 90 second cooldown. This would help both aspects of the play since operatives do not have an execute skill it would allow us to use our main opening attack more frequently, and for PVE it would give us a bit more DPS and allow us to pop stimboost without sacrificing a lacerate.

 

Oh and WATTUP COVERT!

 

What's up Art, you're the man! Good to see you outside the game too =P

 

Anyhow, it's actually 15 energy. Look at the tooltip. It's ridiculous and I completely agree with your suggestion.

Edited December 10, 2012 by randiesel

Oh and yeah dude, good point on our class being the only melee without an execute. It gives other classes such an edge, regardless that haters will argue with me and say we've got stuns (sins have the same amount).

 

Prime example, I was going up against this marauder yesterday, who jumped me out of stealth. We were both close to dead, but low and behold my stuff was on cool down and he pulls off a 5.7k smash followed by a 5.2k execute. 2 abilities for 11k damage, both of which crit higher than any op can on the same expertise opponent.

 

I'm not looking to be able to win very fight I go against, but seriously an execute gives you such an edge when the other class has one and you don't.

If you don't mind i'm gonna add something that haven't been mentioned in the OP:

 

- Acid Blade now cost 15 energy (used to be 10 or 9 I don't remember tbh);

- Backstab now cost 5 energy if specced, 10 default (used to be free if specced);

- Sleep Dart duration in pvp is now 8 sec (used to be 10).

Yep, Warrior class is a bit off, going to be a tough one to balance without a revolt from the large player base that plays them, same if they remove the stun bubble from sorcs, IDK how they alter that skill without addressing smash, we had a sorc in with 1300+ expertise get hit with a 6800 smash the other night, and he pretty much vowed if they removed his stun bubble and did not fix the warrior class to be in line with the rest of us he would prolly quit pvp. They seem to have balanced healing pretty well, Snipers/PT/mercs/sorcs/assassins are pretty much in line with each other for PVE as well, I just know for PVE you have to keep an extremely tight rotation to keep in line with the other dps if you are concealment. We have one PVE operative that can keep in line with the other dps but he is truly a testament to the class in PVE and PVP and it should not take a extremely talented player push his char to the limit to hit that mark, hell just removing acid blade would up our DPS considerably

If you don't mind i'm gonna add something that haven't been mentioned in the OP:

 

- Acid Blade now cost 15 energy (used to be 10 or 9 I don't remember tbh);

- Backstab now cost 5 energy if specced, 10 default (used to be free if specced);

- Sleep Dart duration in pvp is now 8 sec (used to be 10).

 

Sleep darts nerf is fine, you would not be able to solo defend nodes in CW if it was any longer a naked Operative could solo cap a node from any class if that was the case ,

all CC's in warzones should be no longer than 6 seconds imo, if your can get the right situation with dart and flashbang you can cast it just out of LoS of the node in CW and cap quickly and the extra half second or so it takes the person guarding the node you can cap.

Edited December 10, 2012 by dego-harmonium