Yes, but the point is, this is all stuff only they can accurately analyze. We can speculate until our hearts give out, but it's ultimately a big unknown. I find it odd that you're considering it a real argument for this feature in particular, but there are plenty of feature request threads that don't get touched with this kind of argument. Is it just normal for you to do this kind of assessment for each feature that you see requested? Forgive me if I'm misjudging you on this. Just strikes me as odd.

As a software developer working on a millions of LOC codebase I have some experience to what funny things happen when adding something "really small" new feature to the codebase so i'm just trying to be rational. In my daily work my main principle is "If it's not broken don't fix it!", so probably that's why i always feel discomfort when i see requests for features not part of the original design. IMHO the chances of patching the original story to make all characters romanceable not depending on PC sex are very slim. On the other hand chances to get something like that in NEW content are high, If you look at RoTHC both Cytharat and Dr. Lemda Avesta were only romanceable by same sex PC.

As a software developer working on a millions of LOC codebase I have some experience to what funny things happen when adding something "really small" new feature to the codebase so i'm just trying to be rational. In my daily work my main principle is "If it's not broken don't fix it!", so probably that's why i always feel discomfort when i see requests for features not part of the original design. IMHO the chances of patching the original story to make all characters romanceable not depending on PC sex are very slim. On the other hand chances to get something like that in NEW content are high, If you look at RoTHC both Cytharat and Dr. Lemda Avesta were only romanceable by same sex PC.

Actually that's not true. Lemda and my MALE Knight flirted just fine and even kissed.

While I too, would love this in the main 1-50 storyline, it's extremely unluckily BW would ever do this, realistically, but hey never say never!

With the changes to companions, and the fact, we can now recruit/choose from all the past companions, to join us. This is something that I can really see BW doing, at least, I hope this isn't just wishful thinking. My smuggler would then be in a pentagon-love with Corso, Theron, Nico and Vette. Vette would win out, in the end, but it'd be close!

Actually that's not true. Lemda and my MALE Knight flirted just fine and even kissed.

Ok, but that doesn't change the meaning of my post - You have better chance to get same sex romanceable companiosn in NEW content than to have 1-50 story patched.

Ok, but that doesn't change the meaning of my post - You have better chance to get same sex romanceable companiosn in NEW content than to have 1-50 story patched.

Wasn't really commenting on that OR even arguing that? I don't expect them to change the 1-50. My thoughts were they could include new options for companions RETURNING in KOTFE and beyond.

Having played MMOs a while, I know updating that sort of thing is an "almost never" kind of business.

I was just correcting that Lemda is not, in fact, a "same sex only". I'm not sure if she's open to either genders or male only though. Only played through Makeb on a male so far.

I don't want the original companions in the original 1-50 vanilla swtor changed. It'd more than likely be too much work and create way too many bugs. Now for 4.0 and beyond, sure, you could have Quinn, Doc, Vector, Kira, Ashara be gay, lesbian or bisexual, but original vanilla swtor? Leave it be. The closest Kaliyo came to being same sex or bisexual was it let females flirt with her, but she turns you down and basically says men are for pleasure and women are for business or something like that.

Don't mess with vanilla, but have fun with KotET.

Just wanna point out this Thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=590526

But yeah.. changing the romances to same-sex in the orignal stories would make me replay all my chars

But it is difficult.. especially since some romances are not only in those conversations you have with the companions on your ship but part of the actual class story (Kira, Jedi Knight for example)

How is asking for increased same sex romance options a troll?

I can only speak from my own experience at writing stage acts on the side, but I believe that making every companion in the old story bisexual takes away from the writing. I'm already very frustrated and uneasy about the way Lana Beniko and Theron Shan were handled. All three romance options are not only bisexual, but they are also completely faction neutral. It really takes away from the overall feeling.

I was able to bear with the fact that both SoR romances were bisexual with the fact that they were unique at the time, and that there was some slight detail due to the different factions. A Lana <> Knight romance was somewhat entertaining due to the faction difference. With KotFE, Bioware seems to approach the situation as a "everything goes" thing.

I think this everything goes is bad for character development and interaction. A confession about homosexuality/bisexuality can be a very hilarious and interesting point within the narrative - espescially when it was one of the deeply hidden secrets that was just unveiled for the first time. If every companion in the game is suddenly bisexual, we're moving away from that. It would become even more of a cookiee cutter storyline. It doesn't matter what class/race/faction/allignment/gender you play. You can just romance whoever you want, and have no consequences.

I'm bisexual myself, and I really don't see the need to go back and change all the companions to be bisexual. I don't mind introducing those romances going forward, but I would also love to see straight up homosexual or heterosexual characters. I can't help but smirk when my smuggler is turned down by the opposite (or same) gender for one reason or another.

Actually that's not true. Lemda and my MALE Knight flirted just fine and even kissed

Was the male a true romance though? Or was that just one of those "He's saving our planet. Just do it, Lemda" kisses?

I really don't see the need to go back and change all the companions to be bisexual.

They wouldn't be 'bisexual', they'd be sexually neutral and become whatever any player wants depending on their use of flirt options. This gives each player their choice of preferred romanceable companion instead of being stuck with a pre-written (possibly token) love interest that probably fails to appease anyone at all. Just imagine Bioware didn't add this (limited) post-original story sexual neutrality we have now for some companions and instead choose to designate two existing companions as homosexuals to appease the players asking for same sex romance, let's say Tharan Cedrix for m/m relations and Kaliyo Djannis for f/f relations... that would be a big fail, at least to me personally. I wouldn't trust any (Bioware) writer to tailor a single companion for players preferring same-sex romance while providing an abundance of choices for people with a hetero-sex preference. One of the most important aspects of MMOs is customization, so you can play as who you want to be and how you want to look in the game you are playing. And if that game provides romance options... who you want to romance. It's only natural for players to ask for same-sex flirting/romance to be available to them right from the start just like hetero-sex flirting/romance is.

Changing the original companion's sexuality would be moronic, forcing them to suddenly be Bi upon returning is also moronic. Plus, imagine how much the game would break if Bioware tried to go back and tweak with the old romances.

This. Some of the companions just don't fit into the mold people want to put them in. Some yes, some no and going back to change them now is asking for trouble.

BW has enough problems with bugs as it is do you really want them to mess this up as well.

Going forward is always better than going backwards. Someone once told me don't dwell on the past, move forward and I think that is what should be done.

They wouldn't be 'bisexual', they'd be sexually neutral and become whatever any player wants depending on their use of flirt options. This gives each player their choice of preferred romanceable companion instead of being stuck with a pre-written (possibly token) love interest that probably fails to appease anyone at all.

Which means we put fleshing out characters in detail back because everyone has to get the exact companion they want to be romanceable how they want to do it?

Do you actually notice that just keeping them "open end" and appeasing to everyone who might want to romance them with any gender/race/faction and by only using flirt option is creating a "token character" to begin with. Rejection belongs as much into a story as failure and success.

Changing the original companion's sexuality would be moronic, forcing them to suddenly be Bi upon returning is also moronic. Plus, imagine how much the game would break if Bioware tried to go back and tweak with the old romances.

Nothing about that is moronic. Let's say in some weird alternate universe you're playing a game you really really like, so much so that you're even paying money for it on a monthly basis, you can really immerse yourself into it,,, except for one thing. The game provides romance options, but they're all same-sex... and that's really really not something you can get into. Wouldn't you want hetero-sex options for you? After all, nearly everything else about you character is customizeable in the game, why wouldn't you be able to choose a romance option you personally prefer? And shouldn't those options then be available to you consistently throughout the game on a equal basis as they are to players with same-sex options? Would you be happy with later or less frequent romance options than all those players with same-sex options have? Again, alternate universe; you probably wouldn't even play a game like that if it were real, but the reverse is unfortunately reality for many players who just want to play an exciting game they way they like.

On a side note, I do share your concern about Bioware unintentionally breaking the game while the try and, well, do anything really... But in their defense, they also try to fix things... which just take to long... break something else... or over-nerfs something... okay, okay, I'm not helping them here

This. Some of the companions just don't fit into the mode people want to put them in. Some yes, some no and going back to change them now is asking for trouble.

 

BW has enough problems with bugs as it is do you really want them to mess this up as well.

 

Going forward is always better than going backwards. Someone once told me don't dwell on the past, move forward and I think that is what should be done.

Erhm...what "mold" are you referring to? Bisexual/pan whatever can anyone - not restricted to a certain type of individual. If you're saying some personalities just aren't bisexual/pan/gay then I must strongly disagree.

That being said, I don't think Bioware should go back. Don't waste time. What's done is done.

Nothing about that is moronic. Let's say in some weird alternate universe you're playing a game you really really like, so much so that you're even paying money for it on a monthly basis, you can really immerse yourself into it,,, except for one thing. The game provides romance options, but they're all same-sex... and that's really really not something you can get into.

You're question has already failed as you assume that I can't play a character who isn't my sexuality (Oh, and you also assume my sexuality). But my real reaction to seeing no straight relationshps in the game would be ''Oh, there's no straight options. Better roll a gay character or just not romance anyone" and move on. It's pretty simple. I know, my whole experience doesn't reveolve around getting to romance someone.

Wouldn't you want hetero-sex options for you?

It would be a nice addition, but I'd know it's not even close to a big deal.

After all, nearly everything else about you character is customizeable in the game, why wouldn't you be able to choose a romance option you personally prefer?

Because the devs didn't put it in.

And shouldn't those options then be available to you consistently throughout the game on a equal basis as they are to players with same-sex options?

No, they should be however the devs wish them to be in the game.

Would you be happy with later or less frequent romance options than all those players with same-sex options have?

Yes, again, it is not a big deal.

Again, alternate universe; you probably wouldn't even play a game like that if it were real, but the reverse is unfortunately reality for many players who just want to play an exciting game they way they like

Wow, thanks for insulting me by assuming that I'm so god damn whiney and petty that I would refuse to play a game because I can't be a specific sexuality.

Which means we put fleshing out characters in detail back because everyone has to get the exact companion they want to be romanceable how they want to do it?

 

Do you actually notice that just keeping them "open end" and appeasing to everyone who might want to romance them with any gender/race/faction and by only using flirt option is creating a "token character" to begin with.

Did you notice that when you consistently flirt a couple of times with a currently romanceable same-sex companion, the romance interactions get fleshed out more, and aren't keeping them 'open ended', or limited to flirt options only. Did you also notice that not all companions have flirt options/are romanceable (it's mostly the humans or human-like ones) so there's plenty of companions where this won't even be an issue. However, the ones who do have these options, should have them available to whatever gender pairing each player prefers - which in no way means that Bioware has to "put fleshing out characters in detail back". If anything those companions would be more fleshed out along one of two sexually oriented choices made by the players.

Rejection belongs as much into a story as failure and success.

About 50 levels worth during three story chapters across 8 classes of rejection is a bit much in a game where you're also supposed to have fun, and where other (hetero) players apparently have all the success.

Wow, thanks for insulting me by assuming that I'm so gosh darn whiney and petty that I would refuse to play a game because I can't be a specific sexuality.

You're welcome, as that is exactly what I got out of your post considering it moronic to change the original companion's sexuality or forcing them to suddenly be Bi upon returning.

You're welcome, as that is exactly what I got out of your post considering it moronic to change the original companion's sexuality or forcing them to suddenly be Bi upon returning.

Saying that changing a characters sexuality just cus is stupid = Wouldn't play game if I couldn't play my own sexuality

Pretty strange logic you have there.

I can only speak from my own experience at writing stage acts on the side, but I believe that making every companion in the old story bisexual takes away from the writing. I'm already very frustrated and uneasy about the way Lana Beniko and Theron Shan were handled. All three romance options are not only bisexual, but they are also completely faction neutral. It really takes away from the overall feeling.

 

I was able to bear with the fact that both SoR romances were bisexual with the fact that they were unique at the time, and that there was some slight detail due to the different factions. A Lana <> Knight romance was somewhat entertaining due to the faction difference. With KotFE, Bioware seems to approach the situation as a "everything goes" thing.

 

I think this everything goes is bad for character development and interaction. A confession about homosexuality/bisexuality can be a very hilarious and interesting point within the narrative - espescially when it was one of the deeply hidden secrets that was just unveiled for the first time. If every companion in the game is suddenly bisexual, we're moving away from that. It would become even more of a cookiee cutter storyline. It doesn't matter what class/race/faction/allignment/gender you play. You can just romance whoever you want, and have no consequences.

 

I'm bisexual myself, and I really don't see the need to go back and change all the companions to be bisexual. I don't mind introducing those romances going forward, but I would also love to see straight up homosexual or heterosexual characters. I can't help but smirk when my smuggler is turned down by the opposite (or same) gender for one reason or another.

I write stories myself and I disagree completely. There is no reason why sexuality ever even needs to be announced in a story, unless it's a story specifically about sexuality, or about a time period in real history where sexuality is highly sensitive (I will not say more on that point, for fear of delving into something that's considered "political or social commentary").

Personally, I have no such issues with the story that you're describing and frankly, I don't see why someone would have an issue. Faction?

Not only that, but romancing the opposite faction is optional. 100% optional. Not even remotely foisted on you.

Furthermore, you can't even see the characters as "bi" unless you are looking at it from outside the story. That is, within the logic of the story, they are only ever oriented one way, sexually. None of the main characters are flirting with anyone but you. To see them as bi, you have to step outside of the story and see them as characters whose sexuality carries over from one player character to the next.

To say that that makes the stories cookie-cutter makes no sense to me. They are defined, in that small way (sexuality), by your actions. Again, the only way this makes them seem cookie-cutter is if you are looking at them from outside of the story, not within. From a game design standpoint, the fact that you're given different options is a good thing and is good for replayability. What you call cookie cutter is, to me, an opportunity to try playing things a different way next time. I simply see each playthrough as a different story.

Now I'm not saying you "should" see each playthrough as isolated or that you're "wrong" for seeing them as connected, but I disagree fundamentally with the idea that it's poor storytelling. Games are not the same as books or plays. In books and plays, the audience doesn't define anything because the audience doesn't make choices. In games, choice is king.

By giving every character a pre-defined sexuality in a game, all you're doing is reducing options so that you can say that your characters are a little more static. But this assumes that sexuality is an important part of a person's identity in the first place, which teeters on discussion I'm probably not allowed to get into here.

Because the devs didn't put it in.

.

Actually they did put it in originally and had to remove it after the Christian Right got upset and were going to start telling people before launch to boycotte the game. EA panicked and told Bioware to change it.

It's not hard to assume that some of the companion conversations were changed slightly and not completely rewritten, considering how far they were into the development.. I think Calio is a prime example of where that companion "could" have headed because it sort of changes abruptly when trying to romance her with a female. One minute it seems like it will happen, then bam, no thank you mam.

I can understand the issues associated with trying to "retro fit" the vanilla stories now. But there really is no "reasonable" argument in not allowing returning companions to have that option. It allows people to then play the game the way they like, it also doesn't affect "anyone else's" game play. So I can't see why people would even bother getting upset if it doesn't affect them.

Being a lesbian, I'm used to dealing with things being designed as hetro. If I got upset everytime I came across something only hetro based, I'd never be able to do anything. LoL

But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to ask for options to include lesbian or gay content. I enjoy the immersion into games the same as everyone. Always being encouraged or strong armed into conforming to a set norm is boring and not immersive.

What really got me thinking about all this, was the DvL. I decided to roll some more toons so I could participate (I didn't have enough at 32). It was while playing my Jedi knight, that I realised most options with the Doc companion are flirting, some times 2 flirting options within the same choice selection. When you try to pick the only other option, which should be neutral, you get big negative influence. It's pretty offensive being strong armed into picking something you don't agree with, just so you don't get negative points.

My girlfriend/wife and I have played since launch. We've done all the stories, we know how hetro they all are, even if some could easily go the other way. When I got annoyed and started ranting about Doc being a pig, she laughed hard, then I did too when I realised what I was doing. But then we discussed how the game was probably developed before tampering with it and how they could introduce an option, that is the basis of my OP.

TrixxieTriss;9003490

. It was while playing my Jedi knight, that I realised most options with the Doc companion are flirting, some times 2 flirting options within the same choice selection. When you try to pick the only other option, which should be neutral, you get big negative influence. It's pretty offensive being strong armed into picking something you don't agree with, just so you don't get negative points.

I have rarely taken the romance on any of my companions and I know that my knight actually rejected Doc at the beginning when he first came on to her when they met so I don't remember having negative influence later when he became my companion. It is possible that I didn't see it but I have high influence with him (or did prior to the expansion) without having to deal with his childish flirts.

My boyfriend laughs when I rp with Doc and I tell Doc oh shut up you know I am not interested in someone like you, Doc..

I have rarely taken the romance on any of my companions and I know that my knight actually rejected Doc at the beginning when he first came on to her when they met so I don't remember having negative influence later when he became my companion. It is possible that I didn't see it but I have high influence with him (or did prior to the expansion) without having to deal with his childish flirts.

 

My boyfriend laughs when I rp with Doc and I tell him oh shut up you know I am not interested in someone like you.

Your poor boyfriend lol.

Actually they did put it in originally and had to remove it after the Christian Right got upset and were going to start telling people before launch to boycotte the game. EA panicked and told Bioware to change it.

Do you have any proof to back that up? yes, groups got all upity at the prospect of gay romances, but I do not see anything to suggest it was big enough to change what was already made.

I can understand the issues associated with trying to "retro fit" the vanilla stories now. But there really is no "reasonable" argument in not allowing returning companions to have that option. It allows people to then play the game the way they like, it also doesn't affect "anyone else's" game play. So I can't see why people would even bother getting upset if it doesn't affect them.

Having characters act out of character is stupid, even if it 'doesn't affect anyone elses gameplay'. So, yes, I am against changing parts of what makes characters who they are just cus.

Being a lesbian, I'm used to dealing with things being designed as hetro. If I got upset everytime I came across something only hetro based, I'd never be able to do anything. LoL

You seem to contradict yourself with this very thread.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to ask for options to include lesbian or gay content.

You're not just asking for SSR options (Which we already have), you're asking to change the original characters because you want to SSR them instead of the new ones.

I enjoy the immersion into games the same as everyone. Always being encouraged or strong armed into conforming to a set norm is boring and not immersive.

You're not being strong armed into 'conforming to a set norm', and if not being able to romance some character breaks your immersion, I doubt anything would help that.

What really got me thinking about all this, was the DvL. I decided to roll some more toons so I could participate (I didn't have enough at 32). It was while playing my Jedi knight, that I realised most options with the Doc companion are flirting, some times 2 flirting options within the same choice selection. When you try to pick the only other option, which should be neutral, you get big negative influence. It's pretty offensive being strong armed into picking something you don't agree with, just so you don't get negative points.

Again, this is not strong arming. Doc's character has always been an ******e. Is the game strong arming you into being a bastard when dark sided characters doing aprve of the nice options?