With how BW made TOR, maybe that's why people forget it's an MMO? It really is that solo friendly.

It's entirely possible, although I have to say that other MMOs are guilty of it as well. I've only played a few MMOs, and in all honesty, I can't think of one that got it truly right. From what's left of my memory of SWG back during the first year or so of release, the side quests were at least done ok. I don't think I did many main ones if at all... most of my leveling experience was spent with friends going around and hunting bigger game... like the Krayt Dragons.

To me, it's not about learning to compartmentalize... it's the fact that it is an MMO. The mere words that those 3 letters stand for should say it all.

Sure, it's Massively Multiplayer Online - all that means is that thousands of people are online at once, playing the same game. However, the vast majority are not in groups playing together - the games caters to solo game play, and it seems that's what a lot of people do (I am one of them). And even when they're in groups, those groups are limited in size. It is possible to be social with a lot of people at once (in guilds and chat channels), but not possible to play with them all at once.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the game itself compartmentalizes the Solo play from the Multiplayer bits, by instancing, by the default exclusion of the same class from class mission instances, and by the conversation system.

Also, the RPG part of the acronym doesn't exactly fit this game (and most MMOs, really) either. These games are more like interactive stories, than true RPGs.

Like I said, I respect your guys' desire for games that canonize the existence off all the players. That's cool, and I'd be all for a game trying to pull that off. That's not this game, however. So it's not a solid place to base arguments from.

It's totally okay to have preferences toward games where the gameplay is as canonized as possible. That's fine. What I find narrow minded is the assertion that that's the only right way to do it. I'm sorry if you think that's offensive, but it's how I see it. When you see your preferences as rules that ought to be adhered to, that's narrow minded.

Your rules stifle creativity. It's like looking at a Picasso and claiming he's doing it wrong because he broke free of the traditional rules of art to create something out of the box. Hell, it's even worse than that, because doing it this way doesn't break any traditional rules, it's how pretty much everyone does it.

The kind of stories that would exist within the structures you define would be incredibly limited and boring to me. If you can't see how it's narrow minded to say that doing things in a way other than you personally prefer is "wrong" or "bad" then... Well that kind proves my point on the whole narrow minded thing. You can say it's not for you, but making a value judgement on how creators use the tools they have to create something is very rarely appropriate. Doing so in the face of people telling you they personally enjoy the result is downright closed minded.

As for the Jedi thing, yea there are a lot of Jedi in comparison to the Vader and beyond era, but not nearly enough to account for even a decent fraction of the players in this game. A mere 300 years ago the number of Jedi had been reduced to a paltry few dozen. At the height of the order's power, which was just before the clone wars, there were less than 20,000 Jedi. That may seem like a lot, but remember the population of Coruscant alone is ballpark 1 trillion souls. That's one planet in a galaxy of hundreds or thousands of known, inhabited planets.

Your chances of seeing a Jedi anywhere other than their temple is astronomically low, even at the best of times. And SWTOR takes place at a time far from the best of times. So yea, the entire premise of this game relies upon hand waving away the player population.

I'd really like to know how my view "stifles creativity". All I'm saying is that games that are about "your" personal story, rather than the story of all the players, should be SP games, while MMOs should be more about story arcs that include everyone playing. How is that stifling creativity? At no point in there am I saying that they can't do this or that in any game....

As for the number of Jedi, I'd have to go back and relook at some stuff, but I'm pretty sure that even during the war that leads to the "Rule of Two" there were many Jedi in the regular rank and file groups that were fighting (in each group, mind you, not just over all). There were enough on both sides that armor and weapons were expressly crafted with Cortosis in them so that regular troops would actually have a chance against lightsabers. If the total numbers of Jedi (and thus their Sith counterparts) were less than 20k on each side across the entire battlefield (the galaxy), then they wouldn't have been a common enough of a sight to even warrant the extra expense.... Not to mention that in KotOR, you probably kill close to that number of Sith, anyway... (or at least it feels it )

Now, that's not to say that there probably aren't too many Jedi running around in game as is. They probably could've done 1 Jedi class that then splits Knight/Consular, and then added in more non-Jedi class choices. That probably would've spread the player population out a bit more so that there were fewer active Jedi running around at any given point in time. As is, you probably see 50%+ Jedi running around because 50% of the class choices are Jedi and then you have people generally gravitating towards those classes because of the "cool" factor.

I'd really like to know how my view "stifles creativity". All I'm saying is that games that are about "your" personal story, rather than the story of all the players, should be SP games, while MMOs should be more about story arcs that include everyone playing. How is that stifling creativity? At no point in there am I saying that they can't do this or that in any game....

You're using the word 'should'. There's no reason why such stories 'should' be only in single player games. Most players can separate the class story from the non-class stories and cope with the idea that there's not literally thousands of Barsen'thors running around. There is no 'should' here. There are different ways of doing the same thing and the way the SWTOR team decided to do it is by putting main-character stories in a multiplayer game.

They lock it down so the class stories can only ever be about one member of that class at a time anyway; even if you're grouped with another of your class only one person can benefit from a class story instance and make decisions in it. So really I'd say they've managed to convey the main-character story in a multiplayer game rather well.

You're using the word 'should'. There's no reason why such stories 'should' be only in single player games. Most players can separate the class story from the non-class stories and cope with the idea that there's not literally thousands of Barsen'thors running around. There is no 'should' here. There are different ways of doing the same thing and the way the SWTOR team decided to do it is by putting main-character stories in a multiplayer game.

 

They lock it down so the class stories can only ever be about one member of that class at a time anyway; even if you're grouped with another of your class only one person can benefit from a class story instance and make decisions in it. So really I'd say they've managed to convey the main-character story in a multiplayer game rather well.

Right... because what they've gone and done is made a SP game and put it into an MMO setting.

Does that not defeat the purpose of an MMO?

Look, I'm all for the story telling....

*sigh* I dunno... I realize most people who plays games don't give a crap about the story. Of those who do, a lot don't care about immersion. I do. (<-- That's just a mere statement of fact, not a "reason" for it to matter.) To me, having the SP aspect imbedded into an MMO breaks the immersion. There were other ways they could've done it.

I'm not sure about this whole single-player vs MMO thing.

I will admit freely I never wanted to play this game at first. The idea of playing with other people around to pick out my mistakes and call me a gaming n00b terrified me. But I decided to anyway, because my desire to continue the story of SW overruled that fear eventually and I wanted to know what could become of my Bounty Hunter or my Agent or my Jedi. *My*.

Quite frankly, gameplay/story segregation is in full effect to me. I may be running around with ten other Jedi who look and dress like me, but that really doesn't mean a whole lot storywise. Talking to quest-givers doesn't hint at the thousands of other people they've handed that same goal to.

So the issue of how one person plays compared to another is really not all that relevant, in my mind. Just like there are no weird looks about the fifty Mako clones on-Fleet. They don't exist to your character. There's one Mako. One Kaliyo. One Quinn. In a meta sense, sure, it's not a single-player game. But in your character's world, you are that single player. Least that's how I see it.

As for romance, well I haven't done a lot of it. My main, an Operative who's so lightside it's painful, is very much a homosexual male, with an 'acceptance' for females when the job requires it. So in that regard there's not a lot I can do with him yet. Even if there were SGRs that doesn't mean I'd take the option just because it's there. Has to fit what 'he' would be looking for, not the idea that 'I' want to giggle over the idea of two blokes making out on the couch (which I don't btw).

I'm very confused about the Single Player vs MMO debate going at the moment.

Why is it relevant? How does it apply to the topic?

From what I glean is that one person is saying that because there are more than two Bounty Hunters we can't get more story?

I'm very confused about the Single Player vs MMO debate going at the moment.

 

Why is it relevant? How does it apply to the topic?

 

From what I glean is that one person is saying that because there are more than two Bounty Hunters we can't get more story?

-----------------------------

 

Now, allow me to better define where I’m coming from, which will require going into a topic I previously considered off-topic, but I feel is important for my position.

In order to put "supportive" argument behind my position that not every NPC outside of your companions should be bi (ie, respond to both OGR & SGR flirts), which then broke down to the debate.

In order to put "supportive" argument behind my position that not every NPC outside of your companions should be bi (ie, respond to both OGR & SGR flirts), which then broke down to the debate.

You know, being able to [Flirt] with someone doesn't automatically mean they'll reciprocate (except for at the moment it does, because that's how Bioware have written every single [Flirt] interaction in the game), it just means you can flirt with them.

I don't automagically turn into a raging lesbian because a girl compliments my hair, so I really don't understand your position.

You know, being able to [Flirt] with someone doesn't automatically mean they'll reciprocate (except for at the moment it does, because that's how Bioware have written every single [Flirt] interaction in the game), it just means you can flirt with them.

 

I don't automagically turn into a raging lesbian because a girl compliments my hair, so I really don't understand your position.

What I just highlighted in your post is exactly why I'm commenting on it. Some want every OGR flirt-able NPC to respond in the same manner for SGR. Which, as of my experience and understanding from the forums so far, if done right will lead to the "fade to black" moments where you're boinking. So far, the only one that has turned me down has been Dorne for the Trooper before she became his companion. Big surprise as to why....

What I just highlighted in your post is exactly why I'm commenting on it. Some want every OGR flirt-able NPC to respond in the same manner for SGR. Which, as of my experience and understanding from the forums so far, if done right will lead to the "fade to black" moments where you're boinking. So far, the only one that has turned me down has been Dorne for the Trooper before she became his companion. Big surprise as to why....

Until such time as Bioware starts writing their NPCs to reject the player rather than being herosexual about everything (literally everything - I believe only Watcher Eight can reject the idea of a romance if you're an alien) then I'm going to argue that all SGR [Flirt]s should be treated as OGR [Flirt]s - that is, you [Flirt] and the NPC responses in kind. Bioware's NPCs do not discriminate based on social ranking, species, hair colour or kill count, so it stands to reason that they will not discriminate on gender. Up until now, TOR has been cissexist, heterocentric, SGR's only change the idea that NPCs be straight-herosexual to straight-up herosexual.

Until such time as Bioware starts writing their NPCs to reject the player rather than being herosexual about everything (literally everything - I believe only Watcher Eight can reject the idea of a romance if you're an alien) then I'm going to argue that all SGR [Flirt]s should be treated as OGR [Flirt]s - that is, you [Flirt] and the NPC responses in kind. Bioware's NPCs do not discriminate based on social ranking, species, hair colour or kill count, so it stands to reason that they will not discriminate on gender. Up until now, TOR has been cissexist, heterocentric, SGR's only change the idea that NPCs be straight-herosexual to straight-up herosexual.

Which brings us to the debate of SP vs MMO, or "your" story vs "our" story, in that I personally feel as though not all of the NPCs should be herosexual.

Thus, you're caught up.

Which brings us to the debate of SP vs MMO, or "your" story vs "our" story, in that I personally feel as though not all of the NPCs should be herosexual.

 

Thus, you're caught up.

Wait - are you mad that Bioware wrote herosexual NPCs in the first place or that those same herosexual NPCs are going to stop discriminating based on something arbitrary?

Wait - are you mad that Bioware wrote herosexual NPCs in the first place or that those same herosexual NPCs are going to stop discriminating based on something arbitrary?

Well, I'm not really "mad" about anything... but my initial position on this was that with the introduction of SGRs, I feel as though they should evenly split the flirt-able NPCs between ORG, SGR, and BGR. Not have them all (from my perspective) BGR.

The argument was (against my position), they aren't BGR, they are whatever fits "your" story (thus, herosexual if my understanding of the term is correct). To me, this breaks immersion, because I don't view content outside of "your" story as still being a part of "your" story (and quite frankly I think they should've done "your" story differently so the world outside is believable with all of the like class characters running around).

I hope that clarifies? Please understand... I'm not mad. I'm not angrily posting here... I know, emotion is often lost on text. But I'm definitely not mad about it. If I was, I wouldn't be playing, let alone paying a sub.

Well, I'm not really "mad" about anything... but my initial position on this was that with the introduction of SGRs, I feel as though they should evenly split the flirt-able NPCs between ORG, SGR, and BGR. Not have them all (from my perspective) BGR.

Well, for that to happen the next 50 levels of story content will not have OGR [Flirt]able NPCs and Bioware certainly won't do that, no matter how happy they are to have OGR-only NPCs.

Well, for that to happen the next 50 levels of story content will not have OGR [Flirt]able NPCs and Bioware certainly won't do that, no matter how happy they are to have OGR-only NPCs.

Except, to my knowledge, current existing ones will be changed as well (or may be)? Unless I missed something somewhere, where they've clearly stated that existing flirt-able NPCs will not be touched? I think myself and most of us who have been debating this have all assumed that even existing ones will (at some point) be changed?

EDIT: But either way, new content should be split (IMO). If they're not going to be touching existing content, then the split should be done without taking them into consideration.

Except, to my knowledge, current existing ones will be changed as well (or may be)? Unless I missed something somewhere, where they've clearly stated that existing flirt-able NPCs will not be touched? I think myself and most of us who have been debating this have all assumed that even existing ones will (at some point) be changed?

Changing existing NPCs in the leveling content will be rather hard - unless they really do just remove the gender check for most of them.

It is assumed that companions will be made available, but we do not know how or when.

I was referring to leveling NPCs in my post, hence the "50 levels". I said that Bioware will not have SGR only NPCs for 50 levels because, well, every single biological* female companion is available as a romance option for male PCs, whereas not every single biological* male companion is available, which rather implies that making all female companions (and by extension, female romance and [Flirt] NPCs) available to male PCs must be something of a necessity to Bioware.

*here non-droid, not cis.

Changing existing NPCs in the leveling content will be rather hard - unless they really do just remove the gender check for most of them.

 

It is assumed that companions will be made available, but we do not know how or when.

 

I was referring to leveling NPCs in my post, hence the "50 levels". I said that Bioware will not have SGR only NPCs for 50 levels because, well, every single biological* female companion is available as a romance option for male PCs, whereas not every single biological* male companion is available, which rather implies that making all female companions (and by extension, female romance and [Flirt] NPCs) available to male PCs must be something of a necessity to Bioware.

 

*here non-droid, not cis.

Ok... I'm still not sure I understand what you are referring to by "leveling NPCs".

In my mind, it's split (really) 3 ways: Companions, NPCs within your class story, and NPCs outside of your class stories (the ones that do the world missions that everyone can do). It's the third group that I'm really arguing for being split.

Ok... I'm still not sure I understand what you are referring to by "leveling NPCs".

 

In my mind, it's split (really) 3 ways: Companions, NPCs within your class story, and NPCs outside of your class stories (the ones that do the world missions that everyone can do). It's the third group that I'm really arguing for being split.

NPCs in and outside of class stories. Companions are referred to as Companions. Romance NPCs were class-story romance option NPCs, but we now have two on Makeb (well, one per faction) that are romance NPCs, so now it is simply "Romance NPCs".

The third group - world NPCs - are already herosexual as they do not discriminate based on any factor, Bioware simply chose not to make them available to SGRs because of their own magical whatever* reasons.

And, let's be honest here, this game isn't exactly fair with [Flirt]s at the moment - male PCs get far more [Flirt] and romance options than female NPCs (no woman unchained to a man, remember?), so while there is a precedent for having an unfair allotment of [Flirt]s for each gender and sexuality, that does not make the practice acceptable. However, we can assume that Mr. Muscos' comment is likely to mean an 80%-20% split of straight to gay [Flirt]s for male PCs and a closer 60%-40% split on straight to gay [Flirt]s for female PCs (if we wish to be cynical - he did rather clearly leave out sexuality as part of the balancing).

*they never actually told us why, but most people have speculated that it's because EA forced ToR out the door.

And, let's be honest here, this game isn't exactly fair with [Flirt]s at the moment - male PCs get far more [Flirt] and romance options than female NPCs

Which I also feel as though should be fixed and balanced out. But obviously, as you also stated in your post that SGR flirt options in the expansion are skewed, is not something that they have in mind.

Which I also feel as though should be fixed and balanced out. But obviously, as you also stated in your post that SGR flirt options in the expansion are skewed, is not something that have in mind.

As far as I'm aware, the [Flirt] options are available to "everyone" but not everyone. It's my understanding that only straight male PCs and lesbian PCs will have romance and [Flirt] options on the Republic side and gay PCs and straight female PCs will have romance and [Flirt] options on the Imperial side, not that straight PCs are left out entirely. (As Mr. Musco confirmed that the romances are separated by faction, I assume this is true - he has not said anything else on the subject.)

I said that you would need 50 levels of SGR only NPC [Flirt]s because that is what we have currently - 50 levels of OGR only NPC [Flirt]s, all of which are met in kind where they are available.

I said that you would need 50 levels of SGR only NPC [Flirt]s because that is what we have currently - 50 levels of OGR only NPC [Flirt]s, all of which are met in kind where they are available.

Right, ok, so I think I did understand you earlier on this, which is why I said I thought they were changing the NPCs from the first 50 levels as well.

Either way, I could even get behind the [Flirt] option being literally available to everyone for each of the flirt-able NPCs... just that some should turn you down unless you do meet specific criteria. Which, I think, would also mean that they'd have to expand the number of NPCs that you can flirt with. Certain ones, like those few that award titles (I think there is one that awards the "Baroness" title to at least a female BH if you accept a marriage proposal), would probably have to be Herosexual, to some degree or another. But then again, that falls into the category of "I think they did it wrong".

As far as I'm aware, the [Flirt] options are available to "everyone" but not everyone. It's my understanding that only straight male PCs and lesbian PCs will have romance and [Flirt] options on the Republic side and gay PCs and straight female PCs will have romance and [Flirt] options on the Imperial side, not that straight PCs are left out entirely. (As Mr. Musco confirmed that the romances are separated by faction, I assume this is true - he has not said anything else on the subject.)

Oh, and to this, I believe in that same thread later, it's confirmed that this particular scenario was only in relation to your faction mission giver (which takes the place of your class mission giver). It was later posted that there are world missions that bring you to NPCs of the opposite (and possibly both) gender(s) that are also BGR.

Either way, I could even get behind the [Flirt] option being literally available to everyone for each of the flirt-able NPCs... just that some should turn you down unless you do meet specific criteria.

And this is *my* definition of herosexual - none of the NPCs in this game (bar a very select few) do not discriminate or turn down the PC. Until such time as world NPCs, Romance NPCs and Companions start to show a bit of personality and stop getting with everyone that hits the [Flirt] option, then gender blind herosexual NPCs are pretty much the only option.