Why won't this thread die?!?!?!?!

 

we need more firepower!

Edited December 28, 2012 by cashogy

See here's where I would disagree. Early on in my STWOR leveling I started grouping with other random Warzoners, I just had happened to see the same people in a a couple of matches, and we somehow just started grouping up for faster queues.

 

Now of course gear and all that stuff matters to an extent, especially at 50, but really the biggest difference is this:

 

.In my average pub v. pub game the closest thing to strategy is 'call inc' or a really passive-agressive "Like 2 people go left guys'.

 

I dunno if it's the tougher competition or what, but if I see people I know on the other team, in order to beat them I'm more than willing to dump that simplistic '2/6' crap and start naming people off to go to specific locations. Or ask my group pregame if anyone is healing and name off people to watch for them getting tunneled, tell people periodically to scout uncapped objective to see if a stealther can ninja it, etc etc.

 

And people respond to that ****. I've been beaten by a solo-queued buddy just because him or just the team in general took charge to outplay our group.

 

And that's the funny thing most of our group started as those pubs, its' just after great games we started inviting each other into groups and adding people to friendlsits so we could play with people we knew-somewhat and get faster queues.

 

I fail to see how anything you said disagreed with anything I said. In fact, none of what you said related at all to what I said. Did you quote the wrong person?

now you just putting words in my mouth, projecting your own insecurities onto me... i never said i dont like competitive matches. nothing more fun than a civil war with a stale mate at mid.

 

all i said was queued together as a guild (a few of whom are IRL friends) owning every match is a blast. and if you say you disagree with that, then i name you sir... a gosh darn liar or an antisocial mmo recluse.

 

realize that premades arent about being ******es(although a few are), but its a group of 3-4 friends playing together, having fun, and who are probably just better than you.

 

 

edit: and LOL @ "you just want to win because thats fun for you". duh... the whole point is to win. its not up to me to make sure you put up a competitive match. its up to YOU.

 

You can LOL at that all you want, but you really just proved me right. Of course winning is fun, but winning because you're just face stomping the other team repeatedly isn't fun. Winning in less than 3 minutes (just happened in an Alderaan match I was in - I was on the winning side, btw) is not fun. I actually quit for a bit after that and waited for new players to get into the queue so I wouldn't go against the same team again. Sounds like you would have kept queuing and hoping for them again and again and again, because you find winning, no matter the competition, to be a blast.

 

BTW, you and your friends probably are not better than me. I actually run rated WZs, unlike you (or so it seems). I'm not afraid to face other premades. And it's far more fun than stomping all over some Puggers in recruit gear (or their PVE gear, heaven forbid).

 

My argument was not from the "I lose too often and it's not fun" side of the fence, it was from the "I see some serious imbalance going on that's really not cool" side of the fence.

You can LOL at that all you want, but you really just proved me right. Of course winning is fun, but winning because you're just face stomping the other team repeatedly isn't fun. Winning in less than 3 minutes (just happened in an Alderaan match I was in - I was on the winning side, btw) is not fun. I actually quit for a bit after that and waited for new players to get into the queue so I wouldn't go against the same team again. Sounds like you would have kept queuing and hoping for them again and again and again, because you find winning, no matter the competition, to be a blast.

 

BTW, you and your friends probably are not better than me. I actually run rated WZs, unlike you (or so it seems). I'm not afraid to face other premades. And it's far more fun than stomping all over some Puggers in recruit gear (or their PVE gear, heaven forbid).

 

My argument was not from the "I lose too often and it's not fun" side of the fence, it was from the "I see some serious imbalance going on that's really not cool" side of the fence.

 

I am on the "there is only so much coddling I am capable of" side of the fence. I am also on the "This is my first MMO, I didn't start playing with any RL friends, and when I first hit 50, I was terrible, alone, and unguilded. Now after a year of practice, watching youtube videos, combing these forums for shreds of valuable information, paying attention to the people in my queues, and how they perform, awkwardly asking people for advice and if I could group with them, I have actually become very good. I am also in one of the best PvP guilds on my server, and resent the idea that someone who isn't willing to do ANY of the above, is not only going to suggest that I am moved to a separate queue that will take much longer to pop, but that I am BAD person for not wanting to go there" side of the fence.

 

I am also on the "run-on sentence" side of the fence. Seriously, there are a lot of fences here.

Funny. They had this discussion years ago on the WoW forums that led to Blizzard making it so that premades had to wait ~45min. to enter a battleground which, obviously, noone wanted to do and thus it discouraged people from playing in a premade. Quite sneaky actually. Not removing it but making it not worth the while.

 

In before Bioware pulls the same trick.

Funny. They had this discussion years ago on the WoW forums that led to Blizzard making it so that premades had to wait ~45min. to enter a battleground which, obviously, noone wanted to do and thus it discouraged people from playing in a premade. Quite sneaky actually. Not removing it but making it not worth the while.

 

In before Bioware pulls the same trick.

 

I just wish people understood that's the issue. It's not that premades delight in crushing pug's dreams. It's that those of us that PvP the most i.e. those of us in PvP guilds, don't want normal WZs to turn into the scheduling nightmare that Ranked currently is. We aren't scared of competition, we are scared to death of going back to the pre-merger queue times.

 

Just queue solo then... We do. Alot. But we want the CHOICE to group with our friends if they are online. No one is arguing to take CHOICE away from solo queuers. They choose to queue solo, and they COULD choose to start a group/join a guild. Saying there should be a 'Premade only' queue is the same as saying "if you want to play with your friends, you have to wait". Arguing for a premade only queue, doesn't make any more sense than arguing for the removal of the solo queue altogether. You want to run a flashpoint? You find some people to run it with you. You want to PvP, you find some people to PvP with you. That concept is just as "fair" as the idea of a premade only queue. Just that option doesn't make the people that care the most about PvP, have to wait forever to play.

 

Or we could have a 3rd option, that is the most fair for the most amount of people. You want to queue solo? Queue solo, go right ahead. But you will win less often. You want to queue with a group? Well then you have to find a group. But you will win more often. Oh wait, we already have that option...

There has to be a middle ground, i don't think anyone could seriously oppose if the matchmaking would wait another 2 minutes to make a balanced match, and only starts the unbalanced one if it can't find a bettter match in those 2 minutes.

 

As for the matchmaking, the best i heard so far is by valor, cause if you got the valor but not the gear it's really your own fault, wth did you spend your comms on. Something like try to match teams within 50 valor levels, then expand by 50 every minute would not be perfect, but a clear improvement to the current situation.

 

I understand valor doesn't equal skill, but on average people with more valor will be better than people with low valor just because they practiced more, so if we could reduce the unfun imbalanced matches from like >50% now to around 30% that certainly would be a lot beter, no?

 

Case in point i did 5 dailies y'day, took me 14 matches, 1 of them was competitive, the other 13 we either stomped them or got stomped, and both are just not fun

 

Problem is, I have had a lvl 50 from about 2 week out from launch. I quickly got lvl 65 Valor back before 1.2. I dont have WH or EWH now... How is that my fault? (I had to take a break from the game for Financial reasons...)

 

I have no idea why this posted again... >.>

Edited December 29, 2012 by P-Chan
Double post, cant delete

What you've just said is one of the most insane things I have ever read. At no point in your irrational response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

I dont care what they say about you... You are now my Hero for Quoting Billy Madison!

Just queue solo then... We do. Alot. But we want the CHOICE to group with our friends if they are online. No one is arguing to take CHOICE away from solo queuers. They choose to queue solo, and they COULD choose to start a group/join a guild. Saying there should be a 'Premade only' queue is the same as saying "if you want to play with your friends, you have to wait". .

 

And? What you are saying is that you want premades to have the CHOICE to play versus other premades and wait, or to play quickly by playing vs pugs. But the pug solo players have no choice at all... you are denying them any choice for the sake of your convenience.

 

You dont want to wait? Then pug solo.

 

Want to play with your premade? Then wait 5 minutes for a balanced match to be arranged.

 

And dont try to argue that solo puggers are playing it wrong because this is an MMOG... OMG wt f are people doing when they join a team with 7 other people? Grouping, geniuses. Talk about a moronic argument.

 

Tyrrany of the minority in this case... the very vocal minority of premaders who either (or both) dont want to wait or actually like to pug stomp and pick up easy wins by playing with no competition. Neither case is acceptable behaviour in an adult, and would get even preschoolers sat in a corner with no toys.

I just wish people understood that's the issue. It's not that premades delight in crushing pug's dreams. It's that those of us that PvP the most i.e. those of us in PvP guilds, don't want normal WZs to turn into the scheduling nightmare that Ranked currently is. We aren't scared of competition, we are scared to death of going back to the pre-merger queue times.

 

Just queue solo then... We do. Alot. But we want the CHOICE to group with our friends if they are online. No one is arguing to take CHOICE away from solo queuers. They choose to queue solo, and they COULD choose to start a group/join a guild. Saying there should be a 'Premade only' queue is the same as saying "if you want to play with your friends, you have to wait". Arguing for a premade only queue, doesn't make any more sense than arguing for the removal of the solo queue altogether. You want to run a flashpoint? You find some people to run it with you. You want to PvP, you find some people to PvP with you. That concept is just as "fair" as the idea of a premade only queue. Just that option doesn't make the people that care the most about PvP, have to wait forever to play.

 

Or we could have a 3rd option, that is the most fair for the most amount of people. You want to queue solo? Queue solo, go right ahead. But you will win less often. You want to queue with a group? Well then you have to find a group. But you will win more often. Oh wait, we already have that option...

 

Fortunately, there are more than 3 options, and the idea of what is "most fair for most people" is not as simple and one-sided as you are telling us. Solo players want the CHOICE to play on an even playing field. Why do you want to deny us this choice? Why is an option for solo pvp queues, along with the current general queue, so bad? Would it really be such a burden to have to run a WZ without 3 healers and 2 tanks?

 

A solo only queue. A general queue as it stands now. Allow people to queue for both at the same time.

 

Yes, I know, that will not happen unless there are cross server queues. It's a pipe dream, but it's all we have to hope for at this point.

Can we change the name of this thread to "The Things Bioware needs to Implement to make PvP Fun for all involved"? Seriously. For those of you wanting Separate queues... Stop... This is stupid. I am a "casual" player, and I have recently stopped PvPing because its just NOT fun anymore. Not with the Imbalances... However, why do you want to punish the people who ARE good at PvP, Have the Time to be good, and WANT to do it? That doesn't make sense. What this game needs to do is:

 

1) Implement some kind of Item Level for all gear (PvP AND PvE) (This can be used to better match players in PvP because matchmaking through Valor would be ridiculous.)

2) Fix the CC/Resolve system. Getting repeatedly stunlocked to death just ISNT fun.

3) Introduce an ACTUAL Matchmaking System. (The longer you wait, to more outside your "bracket" you go to find a match)

4) Make rewards for RWZs worth running them...

5) If they get lost, look at GW2 and WoW for help (not copy... for the love of GOD not copy)... These systems right now aren't doing that bad. It may help you out in the long run.

6) Do not... I repeat... DO NOT separate queues. This will swing the problem the other way, And there will still be ways around the "Not Grouping" system.

7) Implement Cross Server Queues. Seriously... Why Bioware doesn't want to do this is beyond me. I dont see how it would hurt the "community" to do it. But it would help the issues out alot (and we might actually see a start to the season!)

8) In the matchmaking, try to make it so groups go against groups FIRST, and after time, start going against PUGs. In this way Bioware could actually let a full 8 man team into Regular WZs, just make them a Priority to fight other 8 Mans first...

 

Like I said. Im not a premader. I believe I should have the choice to solo-queue and not be punished for it. But we shouldn't punish the guys who want to run Premades any more then us solo queue guys should be punished for how we play...

 

Lets hear how this is Unreasonable. I know someone will say it is >.>

I dont like getting roflstomped by premades but thats a part of the game. Players in pugs (im one of them) usually try to have fun and do some solo farming in the WZs. Some are selfish and others have just given up trying to have some teamwork. But this is the way pvp works. If you want better progress you need a premade. Common "PvP sense"

I have ragequited several times after a extremly bad WZ (sometimes pugs work really good together though).

I played Warhammer Age Of Reconning and THATS alot worse when it comes to premades (gear = 95% and skill=5%)

Dunno if my post make any sense but the point is: Get a premade or keep on getting farmed (sometimes)

 

In other words: I agree with Chan 100%

Edited December 29, 2012 by SWEtree

At first, I dismissed this thread as unworthy of attention. Then, I was going to type up a long and eloquent response to the idea that Premades are ruining normal WZs.

 

But since a picture is worth a thousand words, my thoughts on the original point of this thread shall be expressed in a visual manner:

http://i.imgur.com/UnFnF.gif

But since a picture is worth a thousand words, my thoughts on the original point of this thread shall be expressed in a visual manner:

http://i.imgur.com/UnFnF.gif

 

Yes, pretty much "pure" PvP servers deserted and closed since game launch cuz problem of this OP.

Get better at PvP, make some friends (forever alone) and queue with them. This is how you counter premade teams.

Can we change the name of this thread to "The Things Bioware needs to Implement to make PvP Fun for all involved"? Seriously. For those of you wanting Separate queues... Stop... This is stupid. I am a "casual" player, and I have recently stopped PvPing because its just NOT fun anymore. Not with the Imbalances... However, why do you want to punish the people who ARE good at PvP, Have the Time to be good, and WANT to do it? That doesn't make sense. What this game needs to do is:

 

1) Implement some kind of Item Level for all gear (PvP AND PvE) (This can be used to better match players in PvP because matchmaking through Valor would be ridiculous.)

2) Fix the CC/Resolve system. Getting repeatedly stunlocked to death just ISNT fun.

3) Introduce an ACTUAL Matchmaking System. (The longer you wait, to more outside your "bracket" you go to find a match)

4) Make rewards for RWZs worth running them...

5) If they get lost, look at GW2 and WoW for help (not copy... for the love of GOD not copy)... These systems right now aren't doing that bad. It may help you out in the long run.

6) Do not... I repeat... DO NOT separate queues. This will swing the problem the other way, And there will still be ways around the "Not Grouping" system.

7) Implement Cross Server Queues. Seriously... Why Bioware doesn't want to do this is beyond me. I dont see how it would hurt the "community" to do it. But it would help the issues out alot (and we might actually see a start to the season!)

8) In the matchmaking, try to make it so groups go against groups FIRST, and after time, start going against PUGs. In this way Bioware could actually let a full 8 man team into Regular WZs, just make them a Priority to fight other 8 Mans first...

 

Like I said. Im not a premader. I believe I should have the choice to solo-queue and not be punished for it. But we shouldn't punish the guys who want to run Premades any more then us solo queue guys should be punished for how we play...

 

Lets hear how this is Unreasonable. I know someone will say it is >.>

 

So let me get this strate. Premades who only wanna play against PUGs should be revarded for their cowardness, PUGs should not have the right to decide if they wanna play against Premades. Brilliant Dude just brilliant.

People who are only queuing up for their daily or FTP folks who only want to try it out are consistently running into premades. It's fun for the premade to stomp on players with 14k HP but its going to hurt PvP in the long run.

 

Not everyone wants to spam fleet chat for a premade group. Some people want to jump in and play. There is nothing wrong with that. Saying "make a group because its an MMO" is ridiculous. As if grouping is a forced mechanic to even trying PvP. Want to kill your MMO? Force grouping on people. You will lose the entire base of players who want to get in, have some fun, and go do something else.

TLDR; Moral of the story. Stop whining. Get geared(correctly to your profession/skill tree) Stop running off to take a node like Luke Skyturd and support your team. Learn how to CC/taunt effectively and learn your priority targets(sorry healers) Also, I've seen genius' that seem to think if they got more damage than me that they are better or won the game. Um. No you sir/madam are incorrect. This is a team game and if you are off fighting at a node solo getting facerolled over and over you did not help the team. hmmm.....what else can I ramble about. OH! The dude like last night that say's "It's hopeless! they have healers and we don't!" in Navarre Coast and my team actually won no thanks to polly prissy pants. In short, Get your heads out of your butts and help the team. Because no matter who you are. You are not that good. If you are ************ that you aren't getting heals, look around you. No one else is either. ROLL A HEALER or ****. /end /happynewyear:sul_wink:

for christs sake you can hack the ***** out of the game but god forbid if I type G t F o......

So let me get this strate. Premades who only wanna play against PUGs should be revarded for their cowardness, PUGs should not have the right to decide if they wanna play against Premades. Brilliant Dude just brilliant.

 

Did you not read ANY of what I posted? I want better rewards for RWZs so the premades have an actual incentive to go and play that. And with how many premades are being ran now in Regulars, the matchmaking system I purposed PUGS wouldnt fight premades, as the Matchmaking would pit a Group vs a Group first, and High gear vs high gear. in this way players in Recruit gear would be very unlikely to face one of these PUGstomping premades and get completely discouraged before even truly getting out of the gate.

 

Making a premade, however, IS a legitimate aspect of the game. You shouldn't be punished for playing in any style you want to play with. Solo queue OR premade should have their niche. And this would help ensure that queues would remain short, games would be more balanced, and players would have more fun. Thus increasing the value of PvP play, and hopefully bringing players back into the fold.

 

But I knew someone would find what I put unreasonable... How about putting up YOUR idea of what would be fair and reasonable... key on FAIR and reasonable. Hurting one side for the sake of the other is not fair, nor is it reasonable. So lets hear your idea.

At first, I dismissed this thread as unworthy of attention. Then, I was going to type up a long and eloquent response to the idea that Premades are ruining normal WZs.

 

But since a picture is worth a thousand words, my thoughts on the original point of this thread shall be expressed in a visual manner:

http://i.imgur.com/UnFnF.gif

 

^lol'd - My thoughts exactly.

So let me get this strate. Premades who only wanna play against PUGs should be revarded for their cowardness, PUGs should not have the right to decide if they wanna play against Premades. Brilliant Dude just brilliant.

 

I couldn't have said it better. +1 Pugs should have the ability / option to play against other pugs instead of getting constantly steamrolled by premades.

Edited December 30, 2012 by DarthSabreth

I have played MMO's for more than 10 years now. So, please understand that what I say is coming from plenty of experience with PVP across many games.

 

Separating the queues for premades and PUG's is not only viable, it is frankly the best thing a game with PVP can do.

 

First of all, most of your player base is NOT going to be a premade. As a business, you do not want to alienate the vast majority of your clientele for the preferences of the vast minority.

 

Secondly, I personally find it fun when I have to fight it out against my friends, when they show up on the other side from a random queue. We have often had quite the laugh about our attempts to hunt each other down on the battlefield. Frankly, playing against good players who just happen to be my friends is a great way to get feedback on technique. I love it.

 

Lastly, look at games like Guild Wars 2. They offer quite a bit of variety for everybody. You can do random queues, arena's where guilds can compete, and world vs. world... a vast open area of combat where you can siege enemy castles and take territory for server-wide bonuses for all.

 

We already have a system in place for the guild vs. guild queues. One of the reasons it is not successful, I believe, is because premade groups have a choice not to use it. Frankly, it is human nature to choose the easiest route. Either that is the most imbalanced class or the easiest opponent. We all know how easily a well coordinated group on voice can stomp a PUG group. This would work best, if they do manage to get their cross-server functionality working. So this part is partially Bioware's fault, as they dropped the ball here...well... and open world in Illum too.. but that is another issue.

 

The bottom line is that you have to cater to your player base. Driving people out of PVP, because they get frustrated by constantly getting rolled by premade groups is NOT going to help anybody. PVP guilds will miss the chance to spot potential new talent, because that new talent no longer queues up, and queue times will grow longer and longer as the population dwindles. I have seen it in too many games.

 

Arguing that having premades stomp PUGS is ok,.. that is slitting your own throat,... slowly. You are killing the game you love, and you don't even know it... or just refuse to see it.

 

Sorry for what is probably a TON of spelling and other errors,.. just woke up

 

P.s. I am in 2 PVP guilds,.. so I am not just raging against those evil PVP guilds,.. I want to see the game thrive.

I have played MMO's for more than 10 years now. So, please understand that what I say is coming from plenty of experience with PVP across many games.

 

Separating the queues for premades and PUG's is not only viable, it is frankly the best thing a game with PVP can do.

 

First of all, most of your player base is NOT going to be a premade. As a business, you do not want to alienate the vast majority of your clientele for the preferences of the vast minority.

 

Secondly, I personally find it fun when I have to fight it out against my friends, when they show up on the other side from a random queue. We have often had quite the laugh about our attempts to hunt each other down on the battlefield. Frankly, playing against good players who just happen to be my friends is a great way to get feedback on technique. I love it.

 

Lastly, look at games like Guild Wars 2. They offer quite a bit of variety for everybody. You can do random queues, arena's where guilds can compete, and world vs. world... a vast open area of combat where you can siege enemy castles and take territory for server-wide bonuses for all.

 

We already have a system in place for the guild vs. guild queues. One of the reasons it is not successful, I believe, is because premade groups have a choice not to use it. Frankly, it is human nature to choose the easiest route. Either that is the most imbalanced class or the easiest opponent. We all know how easily a well coordinated group on voice can stomp a PUG group. This would work best, if they do manage to get their cross-server functionality working. So this part is partially Bioware's fault, as they dropped the ball here...well... and open world in Illum too.. but that is another issue.

 

The bottom line is that you have to cater to your player base. Driving people out of PVP, because they get frustrated by constantly getting rolled by premade groups is NOT going to help anybody. PVP guilds will miss the chance to spot potential new talent, because that new talent no longer queues up, and queue times will grow longer and longer as the population dwindles. I have seen it in too many games.

 

Arguing that having premades stomp PUGS is ok,.. that is slitting your own throat,... slowly. You are killing the game you love, and you don't even know it... or just refuse to see it.

 

Sorry for what is probably a TON of spelling and other errors,.. just woke up

 

P.s. I am in 2 PVP guilds,.. so I am not just raging against those evil PVP guilds,.. I want to see the game thrive.

 

Thank you,most of us have been touting the same argument but still BW is not either listening / reading or they simply do not care. they need cross server pvp ques and they need to seperate the premades from the pugs. this game is trying to self destruct with the really strange ideas flowing from BW. I love this game but its really strage how combative they are towards making really bad decisions.

So tonight my server Jedi Covenant was actually FULL status.

 

I thought this might be a good time to complete my weekly as I had 7/9 won.

 

Repeatedly match after match my teams were just filler for premades to play. Twelve matches later I'm at 8/9 it was almost surreal to play another PUG team.