My opinion is that separating canon and legends would be the final nail in the coffin for the continuity. And I wouldn't like that.

We'll see what Beni has to say about it all.

Disney has already done this. Disney doesn't even see legends as a separate universe but instead completely non-canon. It's not even like marvel's multiverse. As far as Disney is concerned it doesn't even exist. This is precisely why it's going to be a headache sorting through all of this. As I mentioned this list is going to fluctuate a lot with how much tampering disney is doing. J.J. Abrams, who is the lead director in the new movies, has admitted he hasn't even read anything in the EU. He's a fan of the movies not the extended universe. In the aftermath novel Palpatine was "looking" for the "source of his powers." in the EU such a concept is ridiculous because we know the "source" of his powers.

Disney's star wars is going to be very different from the EU Star Wars. There's going to be powers in the EU that won't exist in Disney Canon. There will likely be Disney Canon powers that won't exist in the EU. Characters are going to be compared with characters who can do things that are impossible in one continuity but possible in another. I don't think people are aware of just how different things are going to be because even the dark side as we know it is going to change. The title alone "The force awakens" had people scratching their head but I bet you the force doesn't operate in the way the EU assumes it does.

So where is this quote saying "A New Hope" was the pinicle of Vader's power?

 

As far as I know there are some quotes from Rebel Directors about what they THINK about Vader's prime, but that doesnt over right what RotJ NOVEL says, especially if we are using EU characters here, and legends canon here any way. If they are saying he is more powerful by A New Hope then he was in Rebels or Revenge of the Sith we already know this because of the whole "when I left you I was but the learner" beyond that I see no reason to think anything has changed for the purpose of this thread. We are still taking the Movie Novilezations as to the same highest level of canon as the movies unless they directly conflict with one of the movies which in this case they do not thus Vader's Prime is still RotJ.

It was stated that the moment Vader realized he had a son his power has been waning since that revelation. So indeed ANH would be his prime. From there he has been constantly weakening. ROTJ would not be his prime.

 

 

 

It was stated that the moment Vader realized he had a son his power has been waning since that revelation. So indeed ANH would be his prime. From there he has been constantly weakening. ROTJ would not be his prime.

Out of Universe by the creators of Rebels which DID NOT create Empire strikes back or Return of the Jedi or have any hand in their creation so their opinion in that matter is just that, an opinion, and an incorrect one at that 0 reason for me to take that as any kind of change in canon, when we have a book (RotJ book) and other sources that are IN Universe that contradict. So nothing has changed.

Out of Universe by the creators of Rebels which DID NOT create Empire strikes back or Return of the Jedi or have any hand in their creation so their opinion in that matter is just that, an opinion, and an incorrect one at that 0 reason for me to take that as any kind of change in canon, when we have a book (RotJ book) and other sources that are IN Universe that contradict. So nothing has changed.

What does ROTJ book say about it? Also I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in aftermath so it's not just an out of universe response. It's within the new novels for the new EU.

What does ROTJ book say about it? Also I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in aftermath so it's not just an out of universe response. It's within the new novels for the new EU.

How is it stated in Aftermath, if its Luke, then that's already a thing we know about Luke again going by RotJ both the Novel and the film itself. The RotJ Novel has Vader look in himself at one point and it talks about how he sees a dark hole with in himself power stronger then he has ever had before, which obviously is a direct statement from the Novelization stating he was stronger then then ever before. Further during the whole "you couldnt bring yourself to destroy me before I dont believe you will destroy me now" was Luke's thought that Vader was holding back, but Vader's response of "There is no conflict, if you will not fight then you will meet your destiny" in the movie as well as the look into the head in the RotJ novel shows that Luke's belief is false, Vader is perfectly willing to kill his son in those moments if his son chooses not to fight, its not till later when his son beat him and was in threat of dieing to the EMPEROR was Vader swapped over, even in the EU Luke continues to think Vader held back, but from my understanding of how the Novel states it, he didn't, so that's been a false belief of Luke in every continuity, and it has always been present and always been false.

Basically interviews with creators and writers are good insights into how they see a character, but that is all it is, a character that has multiple writers will have writers with different view points of the character, but the writer still only has control of the character for the material they themselves are working on, and have no control of hte character from before or after the work they are currently working on, their oppinion can affect how they portray the character but it can not effect overall canon with the character nor can it affect prior FACTS about the character. If for what ever reason one of us was hired to write a story about Vader and we thought "well to me Vader is the baddest dude in the galaxy, he is evil incarnate with no redeeming qualities what so ever, a Juggernaut of the Dark side that no good guy could ever hope to stop" does that all of a sudden make those qualities that I am giving him and writing around him facts for all his stories past, present and future? no its useful for those that like to see behind the scenes but we already see that half of that AT LEAST is false thanks to CANON material that did actually happen. So it doesnt matter what they say or do with the character it doesnt change the already released material that they didnt make.

So in new canon Vader's prime is Rebels/ANH, while in the EU it's RotJ. What's it gona be Beni?

Though certainly an argument can be made that if Vader has been observed to be "in his prime" at this point, though again, it's not a canon statement, it stands to reason that his improvements in the years to come where not so vast that general statements can't be made in regards to OT Vader, across the three movies and Rebels.

However I agree with Rhyltran stance in the respect that if Vader in the new Canon has abilities obviously different from his EU counterpart, he ceases to be backwards compatible so to speak with the EU i.e. we cannot assume the Vader Starkiller fought was of his Canon strength, anymore than we assume Ahsoka fought OCW Grievous.

No this doesn't make two seperate characters and demand two separate continuities, all it would be acknowledging is that Vader is portrayed inaccurately in TFU, as weaker than he actually is, and therefore, perhaps, those fights didn't go down quite as depicted, I refer to the foggy window analogy. To which I add that those stories are Legends now, in which distortions can occur. However I say "would" because I don't believe we've been given any reason to believe Vader's depiction in the new Canon is at all different from his portrayal in the EU.

TL;DR, this is not a game changer, move about your business.

In interviews he's compared to Yoda. So do we use his EU feats? Or is he now on Yoda's level?

This list considers Legends & Canon material to be valid, including old post-ROTJ material and G-Canon statements. However Canon material specifically related to the portrayal of Force abilities takes precedence.

So where Canon contradicts Legends, Canon overrides it. So if in the new Canon Luke is stated to be no more powerful than Yoda, he will come down in our estimations, relative of course to how other characters are effected.

But considering the abilities of Canon Luke in his prime have not yet been revealed, we're assuming his EU abilities, I fully expect those assumptions to be proven wrong (though not hugely) but at present we can only speculate.

P.S. If you want a more detailed explanation of my approach towards Legends & Canon, I wrote a blog in response to another's recommended approach, which you are of course welcome to challenge.

Did you know according to Disney Windu does NOT know Vaapad? This means he took Sidious down by raw skill. No drawing on his dark side and amping himself up. Things are very different and trying to compare the two universes while still making sense of it is only going to lead to headaches.

However if he didn't, then this would be true and Windu would go up in our estimations.

This list should be a Legends only list.

OK this has blown up into a bigger discussion than I imagined, with that in mind I'd encourage you all to read my blog:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/beniboybling/blog/star-wars-canon-vs-legends-an-alternate-means-of-t/104566/

And read the linked blog as well which offers at alternative perspective, although I disagree with it. Collectively I think they cover the majority of points related to this debate, which it is probably a good idea to have.

OK this has blown up into a bigger discussion than I imagined, with that in mind I'd encourage you all to read my blog:

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/beniboybling/blog/star-wars-canon-vs-legends-an-alternate-means-of-t/104566/

 

And read the linked blog as well which offers at alternative perspective, although I disagree with it. Collectively I think they cover the majority of points related to this debate, which it is probably a good idea to have.

I read your blog. My main issue (and I will try to find quotes where you asked if I can I don't remember where I read them but I will do my best. ) is if we're having so much trouble placing the last two people if others start moving around this might be debated endlessly and never actually finished.

What does ROTJ book say about it? Also I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in aftermath so it's not just an out of universe response. It's within the new novels for the new EU.

What we need now is for Aurbere to get off his @ss and make a case for Revan, or his powers will be forfeit.

P.S. I'm thinking #9 Vader/Starkiller, #10 Exar Kun or Revan, thoughts at this stage?

Well the only character that might move around is Vader and frankly I'm still all for the idea of having Starkiller and Vader occupy to the same space, let's not get bogged down in that debate endlessly which, as you say, will only get more complicated. At least not for now, this is in my opinion a living document, and can be revisited later.

 

What we need now is for Aurbere to get off his @ss and make a case for Revan, or his powers will be forfeit.

 

P.S. I'm thinking #9 Vader/Starkiller, #10 Exar Kun or Revan, thoughts at this stage?

Personal thoughts are that Jaina, Windu, Kyp and Leia may have more powerful displays then any of those individuals...

P.S. I'm thinking #9 Vader/Starkiller, #10 Exar Kun or Revan, thoughts at this stage?

Well I still think SK > Vader > Revan > Kun, but I'm not hell bent on opposing Vader and Starkiller to share a spot.

Well the only character that might move around is Vader and frankly I'm still all for the idea of having Starkiller and Vader occupy to the same space, let's not get bogged down in that debate endlessly which, as you say, will only get more complicated. At least not for now, this is in my opinion a living document, and can be revisited later.

 

What we need now is for Aurbere to get off his @ss and make a case for Revan, or his powers will be forfeit.

 

P.S. I'm thinking #9 Vader/Starkiller, #10 Exar Kun or Revan, thoughts at this stage?

Sounds good to me. I won't oppose.

What we need now is for Aurbere to get off his @ss and make a case for Revan, or his powers will be forfeit.

 

P.S. I'm thinking #9 Vader/Starkiller, #10 Exar Kun or Revan, thoughts at this stage?

You're right, you're right. Sorry. RL stuff been keeping me super busy. I'll get a handle on it and get it posted as soon as time allows.

Also, I deny that idea. I won't be satisfied until Exar Kun is banished from consideration all together.

I still don't understand how anyone thinks any characters from ABBA onward could be more powerful than Old Republic era force users. ABBA force users have lost almost all knowledge of force techniques or powers. It's been lost for thousands of years. How can Luke, who could barely use force pull, be the strongest in all of SW when a typical Sith Sorcerer could mind crush, affliction and lightning storm Luke to death in 2 seconds. ABBA force users can't even use the force as a shield against basic attacks like a push. **** the most advanced technique in all of the films is Yoda's absorption power he uses against Sidious' force lightning.

If this list includes old EU content like Luke summoning entire fake fleets advanced lbs reasoning, maybe he's up there, but you all set to be forgetting that Emperor Vitiate was as strong as Marka Ragnos as a CHILD, and absorbed an ENTIRE PLANETS force and life energy. He couldn't even be killed completely.

I still don't understand how anyone thinks any characters from ABBA onward could be more powerful than Old Republic era force users. ABBA force users have lost almost all knowledge of force techniques or powers. It's been lost for thousands of years. How can Luke, who could barely use force pull, be the strongest in all of SW when a typical Sith Sorcerer could mind crush, affliction and lightning storm Luke to death in 2 seconds. ABBA force users can't even use the force as a shield against basic attacks like a push. **** the most advanced technique in all of the films is Yoda's absorption power he uses against Sidious' force lightning.

If this list includes old EU content like Luke summoning entire fake fleets advanced lbs reasoning, maybe he's up there, but you all set to be forgetting that Emperor Vitiate was as strong as Marka Ragnos as a CHILD, and absorbed an ENTIRE PLANETS force and life energy. He couldn't even be killed completely.

EU Luke can teleport, view past events, use shatterpoint, teleport objects to him, move faster than even some of the most trained jedi of his era can see, manipulate black holes, walk on lava, conjure illusions of entire starfleets (which he claimed was harder to do than lifting a star destroyer so there's that.), and so much more. I won't get into everything Luke can do but needless to say he's very powerful. So a Sith Sorcerer can't lightning storm him to death because in order to do that he'd actually have to be able to hit him and that's assuming he can get past his force defense and force absorption (he won't.)

Mind crush and affliction? These only work on opponents who can't resist said abilities and you don't need to know what an ability is in star wars to resist it. You just need to have high enough force defense that your opponent can't break through it. In the EU Marka Ragnos took a host who was very powerful in the force and was defeated by Jaden who was only a knight at the time. Jaden isn't even close to being on the level of Kyp Durron who stands no chance against Luke Skywalker. Jaden might barely be in the top 10 in Luke's Jedi order and HE beat Marka Ragnos who had his power as well as his current host's power. So Marka Ragnos isn't the best benchmark.

Also they can resist force push I don't see why you think they can't. When someone gets force pushed their guard is down or they breached their opponent's defenses. Force users in TOR also get force pushed. For the exact same reasons. Let's not forget in old EU Sidious could create force storm wormholes capable of annihilating starfleets with the power to destroy planets. This isn't just draining them of life. He had the raw power to annihilate them.

EU Luke can teleport, view past events, use shatterpoint, teleport objects to him, move faster than even some of the most trained jedi of his era can see, manipulate black holes, walk on lava, conjure illusions of entire starfleets (which he claimed was harder to do than lifting a star destroyer so there's that.), and so much more. I won't get into everything Luke can do but needless to say he's very powerful. So a Sith Sorcerer can't lightning storm him to death because in order to do that he'd actually have to be able to hit him and that's assuming he can get past his force defense and force absorption (he won't.)[

 

Mind crush and affliction? These only work on opponents who can't resist said abilities and you don't need to know what an ability is in star wars to resist it. You just need to have high enough force defense that your opponent can't break through it. In the EU Marka Ragnos took a host who was very powerful in the force and was defeated by Jaden who was only a knight at the time. Jaden isn't even close to being on the level of Kyp Durron who stands no chance against Luke Skywalker. Jaden might barely be in the top 10 in Luke's Jedi order and HE beat Marka Ragnos who had his power as well as his current host's power. So Marka Ragnos isn't the best benchmark.

 

Also they can resist force push I don't see why you think they can't. When someone gets force pushed their guard is down or they breached their opponent's defenses. Force users in TOR also get force pushed. For the exact same reasons. Let's not forget in old EU Sidious could create force storm wormholes capable of annihilating starfleets with the power to destroy planets. This isn't just draining them of life. He had the raw power to annihilate them.

Sorry about the previous post's spelling and grammar mistakes. I was on a phone and it didn't like ABY.

I've read a lot of the old EU books, as well as the new ones, but I don't remember teleportation, super speed, or black hole manipulation. Which books were those?

I agree, reconsidering how OP Legends made Luke, he is incredibly powerful, but I still don't see him winning against an immortal like Vitiate. We don't even know how he's finally defeated, but I bet you it takes an entire group of Jedi/Sith/Others. Hell, Revan Reborn took both the Empire and Sith working together to take him down, and even then they didn't kill him, he gave up and merged with his other half to return to the Force. I bet you anything Revan could have won if the Emperor didn't get enough power from the fighting alone to return and did need Revan to return him with the ritual. I think Vitiate would be strong enough to possess Luke even if Luke destroyed his host. Even if Luke is still in there and fights it, he might be able to escape, but it'd take a long time. Decades at least. In that time Vitiate could use the new power to drain the entire galaxy and become a God. That'd for sure give him enough power to keep Luke down at least longer.

I'm arguing 1v1 here. I don't think any single force user could take this Emperor by themselves, even Luke.

As for the force push thing, I only saw Yoda and Vader use the Force defensively in the OT or PT. Vader against Han at Cloud City, blocking blaster bolts with his hand (Which, by the way, should have kept people from complaining when Shan absorbed Maglus' saber), and Yoda absorbing Sidious' lightning. I saw no evidence of Obi-Wan's Force shield being broken battling Dooku.

Lastly, I'm sure Vitiate could use tremendous destructive Force powers too, but he was dicking around on Voss for too long. Sel-Makor is a jerk. Also, yes I understand Luke is G-Canon most powerful, but George become senile a while back soo.....

Sorry about the previous post's spelling and grammar mistakes. I was on a phone and it didn't like ABY.

 

I've read a lot of the old EU books, as well as the new ones, but I don't remember teleportation, super speed, or black hole manipulation. Which books were those?

 

I agree, reconsidering how OP Legends made Luke, he is incredibly powerful, but I still don't see him winning against an immortal like Vitiate. We don't even know how he's finally defeated, but I bet you it takes an entire group of Jedi/Sith/Others. Hell, Revan Reborn took both the Empire and Sith working together to take him down, and even then they didn't kill him, he gave up and merged with his other half to return to the Force. I bet you anything Revan could have won if the Emperor didn't get enough power from the fighting alone to return and did need Revan to return him with the ritual. I think Vitiate would be strong enough to possess Luke even if Luke destroyed his host. Even if Luke is still in there and fights it, he might be able to escape, but it'd take a long time. Decades at least. In that time Vitiate could use the new power to drain the entire galaxy and become a God. That'd for sure give him enough power to keep Luke down at least longer.

 

I'm arguing 1v1 here. I don't think any single force user could take this Emperor by themselves, even Luke.

 

As for the force push thing, I only saw Yoda and Vader use the Force defensively in the OT or PT. Vader against Han at Cloud City, blocking blaster bolts with his hand (Which, by the way, should have kept people from complaining when Shan absorbed Maglus' saber), and Yoda absorbing Sidious' lightning. I saw no evidence of Obi-Wan's Force shield being broken battling Dooku.

 

Lastly, I'm sure Vitiate could use tremendous destructive Force powers too, but he was dicking around on Voss for too long. Sel-Makor is a jerk. Also, yes I understand Luke is G-Canon most powerful, but George become senile a while back soo.....

He learned how to fold space by training with the Aing-Ti Monks. Also disembodied spirits can be destroyed. Exar Kun has done it. Luke's students have done it. Vitiate can't possess Luke. He couldn't possess Nox, the hero of Tython, The warrior, and also non-force sensitives with strong will. No body vitiate possesses can take on Luke Skywalker and nothing Revan has done is on Luke's level. Luke has re-directed Sidious attack that can destroy fleets/planets. This is before Luke was in his prime. He becomes MUCH more powerful since then. Far more. He fights Abeloth who is essentially a being entirely made of the dark side. A being of chaos who rivals The Ones.

DE Audiobook

Luke: "No! I made a mistake! I thought I had to save the galaxy alone. All by myself. But the way of the Jedi is not a solitary path."

Leia: "The holocron!! Luke, the holocron told me to “join with my brother!” "

Luke: "Yes. The Force binds us. Brings us together. Many people are fighting this war, together! Our ally is the Force! Through the strength of the Force, your shroud of evil has been lifted from my mind! "

<Lightsaber activating>

Emperor: "So be it. Through the power of the Force, you will die!"

<Sabers clashing>

Leia: "Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong... they’re both moving so fast, I can hardly see them... I feel waves of power... the Dark Side and the Light but I feel the Light... is winning!"

This is the Dark Empire audio book. Note that Luke has improved quite a bit since his duel with the Emperor. During this time Leia could barely see them.

Luke walking on lava..

Star Wars: The Jedi Academy The Jedi Search

Without a doubt in his mind, still throbbing with the Force after his battle against the fireworm, he closed his eyes.

Luke walked across the lake of fire.

He did not think about it. The lava refused to touch his feet. Only the Force burned bright around him.

Luke rebuilding the fortress..

Black Fleet - Before the Storm

He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.

The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.

Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.

And destroying it again..

Originally Posted by Black Fleet #3 - Tyrant's Test

Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.

But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.

Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.

Luke being an immovable object

The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common jedi. He had the force potential of The Colony to draw on. He did that now swinging the remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he done before. But this time Luke was ready, he placed his own hand in front of Raynar's, rooted himself in the heart of the force. And when he did that he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him; not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's 16 ion engines, not the blackhole at the center of the galaxy itself. Luke stood that way waiting, fully aware that the remaining bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions.

He literally couldn't be budged. It makes it clear. No matter how hard Raynor tried he couldn't make Luke budge. Then Luke pinned him to the wall with the force lol

Fate of the Jedi Omen 229

Luke caught Tadar'Ro's eye and smiled a little. Then, before Ben knew what was happening, there was a sharp pop of displaced air. The Vor'cha stick simply vanished from his hands to reappear in his father's. He gaped for a second, and then realized that while he had been studying so hard to learn flow-walking, Luke had readily mastered the other known Aing-Tii Force technique. He laughed a little as Luke tosed the stick back to his son.

Another example of speed..

Shadows of the Empire 358-359

The Force was with him. Whatever happened, happened. She leaped at him---She was impossibly fast. On his own, he'd never have dodged, but he was permeated with the Force. He stepped to his right and kicked at her as she flew past. Hit her on the hip and knocked her sideways, but not off her feet.

"Good," she said. Glad she thought so. She was supernaturally fast, and it was only by holding to the Force that he could being to match her.

She circled, looked for an opening---

"Luke---!"

Leia's scream distracted him. He flicked his gaze towards the sound of her voice, saw her and the others turn to look at him---

It was enough for Guri. She took a long, sliding step and punched---Luke backpedaled, but even so, her fist hit him in the belly, hard.

"Oooff!". She followed up with an elbow, but he dived away, rolled and turned, came up with his hands lifted as she darted after him---He lost contact with the Force. He was on his own---She slapped him next to the ear and he went down hard. If he didn't do something fast, she was going to kill him!

The Force. Let it work for you, Luke.Luke heard Ben's voice calling as if from a great distance, echoing across space and time. Yes. He managed a breath as Guri raised her hand, formed now into a blade instead of a fist, a grin of triumph lightingi her features---When he blew out his air, he blew his fear out with it. He had to trust the Force completely---Guri slowed, as if she were suddenly mired in thickened time. He saw her hand descending, saw it moving to smash him, but it was so incredibly slow, why, he could easily just roll aside and stand, before she ever reached him...He did so. He felt as if he were moving at normal speed, though there was a crackling feeling to his motion, a sound like a strong wind whistling about his ears.

He came up, pivoted, thrust his open palm against the descending chop, shoved it aside. He used his left leg, a sweep that caught Guri behind the right ankle. Her feet left the floor, still moving in slow motion, and she fell, floated down, hit flat on her back...Time speeded up. Leia's yell still echoed down the corridor. Guri hit the floor.

All of that in the space of one yell.

Not to mention when using mass illusions he complained that they took more out of him than pushing a star destroyer with the force.

Luke and Darth Caedus

In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.

"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."

Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.

"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."

"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."

The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

"Who's up there firing the blaser cannons?" Han asked.

"Luke," Leia said, and Han looked down the hallway, confused. You could fire the blasters from the cockpit, but only with greatly reduced accuracy. Yet Luke had nearly taken Gethzerion's head off, with Han less than a meter away, while piloting this hunk of junk at full attack speed. The whole thing was just too darned spooky.

Luke sweated from the effort of flying the Falcon. Levers and buttons on Chewie's control panel seemed to take on a life of their own as Luke manipulated them with the Force. The Jedi was doing the work of three--pilot, co-pilot, gunner.

--The Courtship of Princess Leia, paperback, pg. 35

NJO#2 - Onslaught

Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.

The void crashed into the vehicle, striking it in midspine. The long vehicle bent backward as both ends became sucked into the black hole.

NJO#19 - The Unifying Force

But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now. His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty.

He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye.

He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought.

In fact, Luke didn't seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded-but they had little time to reflect. Their lightsabers were busy, as well, turning the blows Luke dodged, or defending assaults launched from below. On the fourteenth level, where the Citadel's exterior wings sprouted from the hull, they reached a fork in the stairway. Luke swung to Jacen.

"Which way?", He wasn't even breathing heavily.

Here's just some of his feats.

Here's just some of his feats.

You didn't have to post all that. I believe you I just didn't remember some of that lol. Anyway, I guess I'm wrong. Oh well. Now where's the Canon list of the strongest force users?

Also disembodied spirits can be destroyed.

Maybe but entities vary in strength and capabilities. Force ghosts, on average, lack in strength. They manage to manifest by drawing on the connection of a living individual (Force-user) to the Force.

Some entities are so powerful that they cannot be destroyed through conventional methods. For example, Sel Makor could not stopped without a sacrificial ritual. Even then, it is not clear if Sel Makor have been stopped for eternity or not.

Exar Kun has done it. Luke's students have done it.

Done what? Vanquishing a Force ghost? Those don't hold a candle to the power and capabilities of an entity such as Vitiate.

Vitiate can't possess Luke.

Why not?

He couldn't possess Nox, the hero of Tython, The warrior, and also non-force sensitives with strong will.

Vitiate possessed Hero of Tython at one point. Hero of Tython managed to broke free from Vitiate's influence with intervention of Orgus Din (as a Force ghost).

As of others, Vitiate did never attempt to possess them.

Furthermore, Vitiate cannot possess a (non) force-sensitive with strong will? Give me a break.

No body vitiate possesses can take on Luke Skywalker and nothing Revan has done is on Luke's level.

Revan held his own against some of the most potent Strike Teams ever assembled in combat situations and have demonstrated talents that only the finest among the Jedi can hope to match.

Luke has re-directed Sidious attack that can destroy fleets/planets. This is before Luke was in his prime. He becomes MUCH more powerful since then. Far more. He fights Abeloth who is essentially a being entirely made of the dark side. A being of chaos who rivals The Ones.

Luke Skywalker never re-directed a Force Storm (Wormhole); Darth Sidious lured Luke to Byss using this power by forging a telepathic link between the two beforehand. Contrary to the popular belief, Luke doesn't have an answer to all Dark Side abilities including Force Drain powers.

Maybe but entities vary in strength and capabilities. Force ghosts, on average, lack in strength. They manage to manifest by drawing on the connection of a living individual (Force-user) to the Force.

 

Some entities are so powerful that they cannot be destroyed through conventional methods. For example, Sel Makor could not stopped without a sacrificial ritual. Even then, it is not clear if Sel Makor have been stopped for eternity or not.

 

 

Done what? Vanquishing a Force ghost? Those don't hold a candle to the power and capabilities of an entity such as Vitiate.

 

 

Why not?

 

 

Vitiate possessed Hero of Tython at one point. Hero of Tython managed to broke free from Vitiate's influence with intervention of Orgus Din (as a Force ghost).

 

As of others, Vitiate did never attempt to possess them.

 

Furthermore, Vitiate cannot possess a (non) force-sensitive with strong will? Give me a break.

 

 

Revan held his own against some of the most potent Strike Teams ever assembled in combat situations and have demonstrated talents that only the finest among the Jedi can hope to match.

 

 

Luke Skywalker never re-directed a Force Storm (Wormhole); Darth Sidious lured Luke to Byss using this power by forging a telepathic link between the two beforehand. Contrary to the popular belief, Luke doesn't have an answer to all Dark Side abilities including Force Drain powers.

We see Vitiate struggle to maintain control of the first line Jedi. A female with very few feats who isn't even close to Luke's level. She struggles against Vitiate's hold. If she could do it then Luke would not be able to be possessed. His will and power completely outstrips her own.

Sel Melkor is a force entity and I don't think he was ever a normal being.

Exar Kun has done quite a few impressive feats. To claim he, in his spirit form, doesn't hold a candle to Vitiate is kind of.. ridiculous. In his spirit form with the help of Kyp Durron he defeated Luke in seconds. A feat Sidious himself couldn't do. You have no evidence that Vitiate would be able to do the same. If you think Vitiate is all powerful you're in for a shock in the force awakening. Wait for ten days and you'll see exactly what I am talking about.

The hero of Tython wasn't at the height of his power in that moment. He was also defeated before being possessed (If I re-call correctly. I'm currently playing a new Jedi Knight so it will be fresh on my mind in a few days.)

The strike team Revan held himself off against doesn't have the feats that some members in Luke's NJO had. Not to mention none of them are on the level of some of the people Luke Skywalker has gone up against. If you think Revan is Luke's equal you seriously know very little about star wars. Ant, who as much as we disagree, knows more about Revan than most and I doubt even he'd seriously claim Luke is on Revan's level. In fact, doesn't ANT usually try to claim Revan is Yoda tier? Even if I disagree that's more reasonable than Luke tier.

Luke with the help of Leia were able to use a wall of light so potent it cut off Sidious connection with the force which caused his own Force storm to re-bound and destroy him. Given that Leia was barely even Knight level at this time I think it's safe to assume most of the leg work was caused by Luke Skywalker. He also defeated Sidious in a duel and only became much more powerful since then. Usually in the past Wall of Light was done by many jedi in unison. Luke was capable of using it by himself.

Yes Luke can deal with force drain. He fought Dark Siders that were capable of Force Drain. As did Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr. If they can do it there's no reason Luke could do it. Oh, wait. He did. He resisted Abeloth's attempt as well. Abeloth > Vitiate. In spades.

Luke > Sidious

Sidious > Vitiate.

We see Vitiate struggle to maintain control of the first line Jedi. A female with very few feats who isn't even close to Luke's level. She struggles against Vitiate's hold. If she could do it then Luke would not be able to be possessed. His will and power completely outstrips her own.

You are referring to Jedi Master Surro? Vitiate didn't struggle to maintain control over her, per my knowledge. Do also keep in mind that Vitiate was (simultaneously) possessing countless individuals on planet Ziost to spread chaos and violence, expending lot of energy in the process. Therefore, it was possible for someone to break Vitiate's control over an individual or two under these circumstances.

Sel Melkor is a force entity and I don't think he was ever a normal being.

Vitiate have also become a force entity more or less.

Exar Kun has done quite a few impressive feats. To claim he, in his spirit form, doesn't hold a candle to Vitiate is kind of.. ridiculous. In his spirit form with the help of Kyp Durron he defeated Luke in seconds. A feat Sidious himself couldn't do. You have no evidence that Vitiate would be able to do the same. If you think Vitiate is all powerful you're in for a shock in the force awakening. Wait for ten days and you'll see exactly what I am talking about.

Exar Kun was terribly restricted in his ability to call upon the Force and could not leave Yavin IV in disembodied form. He gained strength from siphoning energy from another individual's connectivity to the Force (if nearby). However, these gains weren't permanent since the acquired energy would be expended in performing actions. This is why he wanted to transfer his essence into a Force-sensitive body and got the opportunity to do so when Luke Skywalker was rendered unconscious by his efforts but this essence transfer effort was thwarted by Luke's students.

In comparison, Vitiate was able to recover strength from chaotic developments in Yavin IV, killed lot of individuals on the planet, left it without any issue, was able to traverse lightyears distance to another planet (i.e. Ziost) and devastated it with his powers. All of this in disembodied form. Do the math.

Vitiate can destroy an entire world and you think that he cannot destroy a single Jedi? Makes no sense to me.

And I am aware of that development. It proves nothing. Vitiate have lost Voices before.

The hero of Tython wasn't at the height of his power in that moment. He was also defeated before being possessed (If I re-call correctly. I'm currently playing a new Jedi Knight so it will be fresh on my mind in a few days.)

The game may give the impression that Vitiate telepathically subjugated the Jedi (after) defeating them but the Encyclopedia asserts that he did so (while) fighting them.

The strike team Revan held himself off against doesn't have the feats that some members in Luke's NJO had. Not to mention none of them are on the level of some of the people Luke Skywalker has gone up against. If you think Revan is Luke's equal you seriously know very little about star wars. Ant, who as much as we disagree, knows more about Revan than most and I doubt even he'd seriously claim Luke is on Revan's level. In fact, doesn't ANT usually try to claim Revan is Yoda tier? Even if I disagree that's more reasonable than Luke tier.

You are imposing traditional rankings of characters over SWTOR which makes little sense now. Revan's performance against the Strike Team [in question] is nothing short of what would we expect from a Luke Skywalker level opponent. Now do some math:

The Strike Team [in question] comprised of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Theron Shan, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla and one of the protagonists. All of them battle-hardened and experienced warriors. Satele Shan and Darth Marr have significant hype and some fantastic showings. Darth Marr, in particular, is stated to have solo'ed entire Republic armies in the battlefield (few can claim this level of combat prowess). Theron Shan was able to hold his own against a Dark Council member. The others aren't mooks either. Now imagine all of these warriors throwing everything they have at the opponent.

You seriously expect any Jedi to defeat the aforementioned Strike Team? I wouldn't expect even Luke Skywalker to achieve breakthrough against opposition of this level. Any sane individual would prefer to flee.

As per SWTOR sources, Revan is the most powerful Jedi in galactic history. Now you may argue that SWTOR sources do not cover later developments in Legends but then Disney regards SWTOR as an alternate universe and everything about Legends is murky.

Luke with the help of Leia were able to use a wall of light so potent it cut off Sidious connection with the force which caused his own Force storm to re-bound and destroy him. Given that Leia was barely even Knight level at this time I think it's safe to assume most of the leg work was caused by Luke Skywalker. He also defeated Sidious in a duel and only became much more powerful since then. Usually in the past Wall of Light was done by many jedi in unison. Luke was capable of using it by himself.

Leia Organa Solo was actually gifted in the use of some esoteric talents of the Light Side and she had potential of a Skywalker nonetheless. Now keep in mind that the events of Dark Empire take place (years) after the events of Episode 6, so it is safe to assume that Luke Skywalker trained Leia in the ways of the Jedi. Now coming back to the main point; Leia helped Luke break free from Palpatine's dark influence. Now free from the oppressive influence and with clarity in mind, Luke Skywalker was able to bring his entire potential to bear in a confrontation and consequently outdueled Palpatine.

Palpatine's error in judgement was that since he had defeated Luke Skywalker earlier in another setting (strong in the Dark Side), he thought that he could do this again under different circumstances and in a different setting (neutral setting). Realizing this, Palpatine decided to unleash a Force Storm (Wormhole) on his enemies but it was aimed at the nearby moon. This gave the Jedi an opportunity to combine their might and disrupt Palpatine's connection to the Force. The conjured Force Storm (Wormhole), now out-of-control, destroyed Palpatine's flagship instead. The Jedi did not redirect the Force Storm (Wormhole), they had no control over it.

Also, how much a single Jedi would be effective with the Wall of Light technique? Not much to be honest.

Yes Luke can deal with force drain. He fought Dark Siders that were capable of Force Drain. As did Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr. If they can do it there's no reason Luke could do it. Oh, wait. He did. He resisted Abeloth's attempt as well. Abeloth > Vitiate. In spades.

No, he cannot.

Darth Krayt was able to siphon energy from Luke Skywalker but the Jedi Master realized this and physically struck the Sith Lord to discourage him from this act. Since Darth Krayt was preoccupied with Abeloth, he could not retaliate in this scenario and he needed Luke alive for the job. Heck, Darth Krayt siphoned energy from Abeloth, weakening her avatar in the process. So even the likes of Abeloth do not have an answer for Force Drain powers.

Moreover, I don't recall Abeloth attempting to drain Luke Skywalker. She is terrible in battles, she has no tactics.

Luke > Sidious

 

Sidious > Vitiate.

I am sorry, but this is now a matter of personal opinion.

You are referring to Jedi Master Surro? Vitiate didn't struggle to maintain control over her, per my knowledge. Do also keep in mind that Vitiate was (simultaneously) possessing countless individuals on planet Ziost to spread chaos and violence, expending lot of energy in the process. Therefore, it was possible for someone to break Vitiate's control over an individual or two under these circumstances.

There were several npcs who claimed that Vitiate tried to get into their head but they managed to hold him out. I believe Lana is one of them. There were several points where the first line Jedi would grab her heard and say "Get out!" and struggle. Vitiate's control isn't infallible if it was he would have possessed the hero of tython. Would have been a quick feat.

Vitiate have also become a force entity more or less.

Never said he didn't. I said Sel Melkor was never a normal being. He was the darkness of the planet itself. The living embodiment of the corruption. This isn't the same.

Exar Kun was terribly restricted in his ability to call upon the Force and could not leave Yavin IV in disembodied form. He gained strength from siphoning energy from another individual's connectivity to the Force (if nearby). However, these gains weren't permanent since the acquired energy would be expended in performing actions. This is why he wanted to transfer his essence into a Force-sensitive body and got the opportunity to do so when Luke Skywalker was rendered unconscious by his efforts but this essence transfer effort was thwarted by Luke's students.

Sure until you realize the reason Vitiate was able to eat planets is due to rituals. There were supposed to be some scenes on Ziost at one point that revealed that the hand had been there to aid Vitiate in his ritual. This is why he possessed people on Ziost so that he could force them to enact the ritual again. Sidious said rituals are for those who don't have the power to do it themselves. Sidious could destroy planets without rituals so he needs to stop being compared to vitiate before we just start spamming you with sources that state Sidious is more powerful.

In comparison, Vitiate was able to recover strength from chaotic developments in Yavin IV, killed lot of individuals on the planet, left it without any issue, was able to traverse lightyears distance to another planet (i.e. Ziost) and devastated it with his powers. All of this in disembodied form. Do the math.

This is up in the air. It's also possible he was simply directing his will as Nihilus did. Still impressive but we don't know just how much of a disembodied spirit he is. We know he has a real body. Valkorion is not a voice. Valkorion is Vitiate. Listen to the voice. It has a "distortion" effect to it. This is true in all cases. Valkorion doesn't have this.

Vitiate can destroy an entire world and you think that he cannot destroy a single Jedi? Makes no sense to me.

With a ritual. So yeah it makes sense. He acknowledged whichever character you're fighting him on during Ziost really makes him angry. Strange how you weren't just smiten on the spot.

And I am aware of that development. It proves nothing. Vitiate have lost Voices before.

Indeed he has but there's more to it than that. I'm not just referring to the whole Valkorion is Vitiate angle. You'll see what I mean.

The game may give the impression that Vitiate telepathically subjugated the Jedi (after) defeating them but the Encyclopedia asserts that he did so (while) fighting them.

May I see a quote?

You are imposing traditional rankings of characters over SWTOR which makes little sense now. Revan's performance against the Strike Team [in question] is nothing short of what would we expect from a Luke Skywalker level opponent. Now do some math:

 

The Strike Team [in question] comprised of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Theron Shan, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla and one of the protagonists. All of them battle-hardened and experienced warriors. Satele Shan and Darth Marr have significant hype and some fantastic showings. Darth Marr, in particular, is stated to have solo'ed entire Republic armies in the battlefield (few can claim this level of combat prowess). Theron Shan was able to hold his own against a Dark Council member. The others aren't mooks either. Now imagine all of these warriors throwing everything they have at the opponent.

Satele Shan doesn't have that impressive of a showing. She's powerful but let's be completely honest. She's not Yoda tier and if you claim she is nobody will take you seriously in the slightest here. I'll wash my hands of this here and now. She just doesn't have the feats to back it up. Theron held his own against a dark council member? That's fine. They're not all that impressive. Unless you want me to point out how Drahg casually took Vowrawn out of the fight with the wave of his hand until the warrior beat him and how Vowrawn acknowledged if you didn't save him he was going to die from a sneak attack from an assassin with a cloaking device. They're still non-force sensitives.

Darth Marr has the greatest feats of any of them except you're neglecting the part where the dark side has been ravaging his body, he's terminally ill, and has pulled back on it's use. This means he's very unlikely to draw on the nexus on Yavin. He's having difficulty as it is. Revan in this fight had removed the light half of himself from his body making him pure dark side. He's getting the biggest amp here. Then there's Lana Beniko. What are her major power feats? So we have Lana Beniko who isn't even a Darth. We have Satele Shan who is incredibly powerful and we have a terminally ill Darth Marr with an entourage of non-force sensitives.

You think Luke would struggle here? Sidious in his old decrepit body (pre-prime. Not even dark empire.) took on what is listed as "Some of the finest jedi the order ever produced" and slaughtered them in seconds. This isn't him in a younger clone body. This isn't him in his prime. He continued to get stronger since then. Luke defeated this version of Sidious but you claim Revan's feat is just as impressive? That's bias if I ever heard it.

You seriously expect any Jedi to defeat the aforementioned Strike Team? I wouldn't expect even Luke Skywalker to achieve breakthrough against opposition of this level. Any sane individual would prefer to flee.

Luke would handle them fine. He's been in tougher situations and fought tougher opponents. Oh, and as mentioned Revan was drawing on a very potent nexus. You say "Expect any Jedi" I never said any Jedi. We're talking about Luke Skywalker.

As per SWTOR sources, Revan is the most powerful Jedi in galactic history. Now you may argue that SWTOR sources do not cover later developments in Legends but then Disney regards SWTOR as an alternate universe and everything about Legends is murky.

SWTOR sources are talking about up until this time period. You acknowledge that but don't bring disney canon into this. Disney only sees SWTOR as a separate universe as far in that it's non-canon. They view legends the same way. The actual quote has them calling it bioware's universe and "non-canon" in the same breath. It's like if I wrote a book then I call your story "Your universe" this isn't me acknowledging it as official. I'm just acknowledging your fanfic as your own interpretation of a universe I created/own.

Leia Organa Solo was actually gifted in the use of some esoteric talents of the Light Side and she had potential of a Skywalker nonetheless. Now keep in mind that the events of Dark Empire take place (years) after the events of Episode 6, so it is safe to assume that Luke Skywalker trained Leia in the ways of the Jedi. Now coming back to the main point; Leia helped Luke break free from Palpatine's dark influence. Now free from the oppressive influence and with clarity in mind, Luke Skywalker was able to bring his entire potential to bear in a confrontation and consequently outdueled Palpatine.

Leia is gifted in many esoteric abilities but her most impressive showings are not as impressive as compared to some characters. She's a skywalker but hasn't realized her full potential. Have you even read the material she's in after Dark Empire? She wasn't that powerful. She was nowhere close at that point in time even compared to some of the Jedi in the prequel era. In fact I'd easily say most of the major jedi/sith in the old republic could have stomped her at that point. She was practically useless the whole time Luke dueled Sidious acknowledging she couldn't even follow them with her eyes. The wall of light needed her help but was mostly Luke. He also didn't "momentarily bring his entire potential to bare." because he broke free of the darkness. Quote? That's your interpretation. Luke became a lot stronger and even if he fell to the dark side briefly he learned a lot under his tutelage under Palpatine.

Also, how much a single Jedi would be effective with the Wall of Light technique? Not much to be honest.

It wasn't just any Jedi. It was Luke Skywalker.

No, he cannot.

You think he has less defenses than Jaden Korr and Kyle Katarn? I'm pretty sure Luke was very pre-occupied in his fight against Abeloth. Not to mention very exhausted. Force defenses can take quite a drain on their systems. It's about circumstance.

Darth Krayt was able to siphon energy from Luke Skywalker but the Jedi Master realized this and physically struck the Sith Lord to discourage him from this act. Since Darth Krayt was preoccupied with Abeloth, he could not retaliate in this scenario and he needed Luke alive for the job. Heck, Darth Krayt siphoned energy from Abeloth, weakening her avatar in the process. So even the likes of Abeloth do not have an answer for Force Drain powers.

She was busy battling it out with Luke Skywalker as well. Also I don't re-call any such thing. Can I have a source of Luke striking out at Krayt while he tried to drain him? I re-call him thinking that Krayt was draining Abeloth and was betraying him but then he realized that Krayt was hurting as much as he was taking. That krayt was doing everything he could to weaken her.

Moreover, I don't recall Abeloth attempting to drain Luke Skywalker. She is terrible in battles, she has no tactics.

If I re-call she actually tried draining Krayt then Krayt began to do it back. He was better at it but wasn't going by unscathed. It's been awhile so when I ask quotes here I'm being genuine.

I am sorry, but this is now a matter of personal opinion.

No. There's plenty of sources that back it up. Facts aren't made up of opinions. Even if it was opinion you revealed a major flaw in your statement. If it's opinion you believe on the matter it's so close it might as well be subjective. You then call Revan a Luke tier force user. Revan was not as powerful as Vitiate. We have a quote that claims Luke would become 200% of Sidious. So if Revan isn't as strong as vitiate and if in your mind Vitiate is around Sidious' level then we have Luke who is twice that. Revan doesn't compare.

Not to mention the "strike" team argument is a flawed way to determine who is more powerful. When it comes to power you look to feats that display power. Does Revan's most overt abilities match Luke's most overt abilities? No. They don't.

There were several npcs who claimed that Vitiate tried to get into their head but they managed to hold him out. I believe Lana is one of them. There were several points where the first line Jedi would grab her heard and say "Get out!" and struggle. Vitiate's control isn't infallible if it was he would have possessed the hero of tython. Would have been a quick feat.

That is possible since Vitiate was expending lot of energy on possessing countless beings so a few may have been able to resist his telepathic subjugation effort. However, the number of possessed individuals was actually increasing with passage of time. At one point, nearly the entire planet's populace had fallen under the influence of Vitiate. In addition, Vitiate was not only possessing individuals, he was involved in a lot of activity. Furthermore, some agents of the Republic and Sith Empire were trying to counter Vitiate's influence via electrostatic guns and/or weapons.

Now imagine Vitiate channeling much of his power [in telepathic form] into a 'single' opponent, he risks destroying the mind of the target. This have happened in some cases:

It shall also be kept in mind that Vitiate does not necessarily goes all-out against an opponent with his telepathic powers. Particularly against those opponents whom he desires to use as his pwns. I can provide several examples to support this point, if you are interested.

Luke Skywalker is not insusceptible to telepathic subjugation. Lord Nyax almost broke him during their confrontation but Luke's allies managed to save him by telepathically augmenting his will to resist. If this had been a [1 on 1] confrontation, Luke would have ended-up as a pwn of Lord Nyax.

You may mention UnuThul but Luke managed to resist UnuThul's telepathic influence by projecting thoughts into the mind of UnuThul about their (shared) earlier history in which UnuThul used to be a good guy. Experiencing those thoughts, UnuThul stopped telepathically assaulting Luke.

In case of Vitiate, Luke's tricks are unlikely to work like they did against UnuThul; they don't have a shared history and Vitiate was never a good guy. Moreover, Luke doesn't have much idea about Vitiate's telepathic expressions and may not suspect them to be incredibly intense due to lack of experience. Vitiate's telepathic assault can be lot more intense then that of Lord Nyax's; I can make a comparison, if you are interested.

Never said he didn't. I said Sel Melkor was never a normal being. He was the darkness of the planet itself. The living embodiment of the corruption. This isn't the same.

Vitiate had become the living embodiment of the Dark Side itself. His enemies eventually learned that he cannot be restrained or destroyed by conventional means. At present, no idea how he will be eventually stopped. Most likely, he will be stopped by a coalition of his enemies via special measures.

Now, can Vitiate loose a battle in corporeal form? Sure, though far from easy. But if we are considering Vitiate's disembodied form, then unlikely. The opponent needs to get a fix on his disembodied existence first which is impossible through (even) Jedi senses.

Sure until you realize the reason Vitiate was able to eat planets is due to rituals. There were supposed to be some scenes on Ziost at one point that revealed that the hand had been there to aid Vitiate in his ritual. This is why he possessed people on Ziost so that he could force them to enact the ritual again. Sidious said rituals are for those who don't have the power to do it themselves. Sidious could destroy planets without rituals so he needs to stop being compared to vitiate before we just start spamming you with sources that state Sidious is more powerful.

What was 'supposed' to be, is not a valid argument. That idea was scrapped and it does not makes much sense since Vitiate continued to grow in power and hone his talents in the Dark Side with passage of time.

This is official:

Vitiate apparently stopped telepathically possessing individuals across the planet (after some agents of the Republic and Sith Empire attempted to stop him) and brought his entire power to bear in the form of an expression of Force Drain (a Deadly Field) of apocalyptic proportions.

This is up in the air. It's also possible he was simply directing his will as Nihilus did. Still impressive but we don't know just how much of a disembodied spirit he is. We know he has a real body. Valkorion is not a voice. Valkorion is Vitiate. Listen to the voice. It has a "distortion" effect to it. This is true in all cases. Valkorion doesn't have this.

Vitiate is not a spirit; he is an entity. He normally manifests in the form of Voices and Children but can exist as a disembodied being without any corporeal vessel as we noticed on Yavin IV and Ziost. I thought that Valkorion is a Voice, but if he is the original body then this is interesting development.

Your (will) theory is interesting and thought-provoking as well. This matter would become clear in the future as more content arrives.

With a ritual. So yeah it makes sense. He acknowledged whichever character you're fighting him on during Ziost really makes him angry. Strange how you weren't just smiten on the spot.

That is your assumption. Vitiate have spent centuries honing his talents in the Dark Side and also became stronger with passage of time. You don't think that he would develop superpowers after such improvements? It makes sense that he would.

Besides, I got the impression that Vitiate was amused by the actions of agents of the Republic and Sith, he knew that they cannot stop him.

Indeed he has but there's more to it than that. I'm not just referring to the whole Valkorion is Vitiate angle. You'll see what I mean.

You mean:

---

May I see a quote?

Sure:

---

Satele Shan doesn't have that impressive of a showing. She's powerful but let's be completely honest. She's not Yoda tier and if you claim she is nobody will take you seriously in the slightest here. I'll wash my hands of this here and now. She just doesn't have the feats to back it up.

I never claimed that Satele Shan was Yoda-tier but she is a prodigy nonetheless and a master of esoteric offensive techniques and talents. She possess Shatterpoint abilities, can block a Lightsaber with bare hands, disintegrate large reinforced objects almost effortlessly (e.g. a blast door) and even destroy objects weighing hundreds of tons (e.g. a gigantic tree). In one of her battles, she swiftly killed 3 Sith Warriors (simultaneously) with an esoteric technique. Point is that she packs considerable offensive punch and her feats are not common occurrence; you cannot boast that an average Jedi Master can duplicate her showings and/or match her talents.

Satele can also conjure a defensive sphere which makes her virtually immune to most kinds of external threats for as long as the sphere lasts, she does so in the battle against Revan to perform battle meditation after earlier interruptions.

Now imagine Satele in [support role], going all-out against an opponent...you have watched the SWTOR official Hope footage, right? When Jace Malcom attacked Darth Malgus, Satele took advantage of this development and wrecked Darth Malgus with her powers afterwards. This battle clearly demonstrates how dangerous Satele can be in a purely [support role]. A Sith Lord - who was stronger and more capable combatant then Satele - got his @ss handed to him (and almost died) once a Satele's ally came to her aid and she got the opportunity to bombard the Sith Lord with her powers with impunity from a distance.

So even if Satele cannot contend with the likes of Revan and Yoda [1 on 1], she can definitely deny them an opportunity to win and injure them with her powers in [support role], if she is part of a Strike Team assembled to stop either.

Moral of the story? Don't underestimate Satele in [support role]. Its an error that would cost an opponent dearly as both Darth Malgus and Revan learned the hard way.

Theron held his own against a dark council member? That's fine. They're not all that impressive. Unless you want me to point out how Drahg casually took Vowrawn out of the fight with the wave of his hand until the warrior beat him and how Vowrawn acknowledged if you didn't save him he was going to die from a sneak attack from an assassin with a cloaking device. They're still non-force sensitives.

You don't get it. Theron Shan is extremely clever and does not fights a well-trained Force-user in a fair manner. He will rely on cunning, tactics and his specialty in the use of firearms to overcome heavy odds; he is very calculative. He managed to hold his own against a Dark Council member with his smarts, not just his firepower. And this is a (major) plus for him, not a negative for the Dark Council member in question. This Dark Council member held her own against Satele in a fight [on a different occasion] and denied Satele the opportunity to arrest her, so we are not talking about a mook here.

Now, we are considering Theron in [support role]. Again, you cannot expect Theron to defeat the likes of Revan and Yoda [1 on 1] even with lot of tactics involved. However, if Theron is part of a Strike Team assembled to stop either, he will be a credible threat from a distance.

As for Darth Vowrawn; he may not be among the toughest individuals in the Empire but he is not a mook either since he became a member of the Dark Council and have fought in many battles. Lord Draahg was evidently among the toughest individuals in the Empire [in both hype and feats] and his example indicates that super-strong Sith Lords have existed in the Empire outside the Dark Council. Though, all of them do not necessarily make it to the Dark Council because some may not be interested and/or some get assassinated before they have the opportunity to do so. As you see, the Emperor's Wrath killed Lord Draahg so the latter became a victim of the power struggles among the influential Sith.

Darth Marr has the greatest feats of any of them except you're neglecting the part where the dark side has been ravaging his body, he's terminally ill, and has pulled back on it's use. This means he's very unlikely to draw on the nexus on Yavin. He's having difficulty as it is. Revan in this fight had removed the light half of himself from his body making him pure dark side. He's getting the biggest amp here. Then there's Lana Beniko. What are her major power feats? So we have Lana Beniko who isn't even a Darth. We have Satele Shan who is incredibly powerful and we have a terminally ill Darth Marr with an entourage of non-force sensitives.

Yes, Darth Marr was not in his prime condition during his battle against Revan, but he was powerful enough to lead a Sith Empire (a role that you can realistically expect from only an Emperor-level individual in most cases). It would be far-fetched to assume that Darth Marr was utterly useless in this confrontation and did not pose a significant threat to Revan in [support role]. We have an account of Darth Marr easily defeating another Sith Lord in a battle and cut a swath through the defenses of the Valkorion's stronghold to reach Vitiate's position in another battle. Therefore, Darth Marr wasn't compromised to a great degree.

Lana Beniko is not a mook either. She is officially stated to have "great" strength, an accolade reserved for above-average Force-users in the mythos (only) and she is proficient in the use of some advanced Sith powers. Once again, she may not be good enough to contend with the likes of Revan and Yoda [1 on 1], but she is a credible threat to either in [support role]. And nothing stopped her from drawing energy from the nexus environment to augment her capabilities during the battle against Revan.

Besides, Satele Shan augmented both Sith with Battle Meditation power, so their shortcomings temporarily faded.

You think Luke would struggle here? Sidious in his old decrepit body (pre-prime. Not even dark empire.) took on what is listed as "Some of the finest jedi the order ever produced" and slaughtered them in seconds. This isn't him in a younger clone body. This isn't him in his prime. He continued to get stronger since then. Luke defeated this version of Sidious but you claim Revan's feat is just as impressive? That's bias if I ever heard it.

Yes, he would. Likely fail too.

Darth Sidious benefited from the setting to some extent; his office. The Jedi (involved in this case) foolishly positioned themselves close to their target without realizing that the Sith Lord might have the capability to exploit this development and they may also get in each other's way if hostilities commence. Not surprisingly, Darth Sidious managed to blitz those idiots from such a short distance. Mace Windu managed to avoid similar fate, thanks in part to Kit Fisto and sinking into Vaapad at the right moment. Darth Sidious wouldn't get the opportunity to blitz opponents out in the open if facing a larger Strike Team of tacticians (not idiots).

Again, concentrate on the history of each member of the Strike Team that confronted Revan on Yavin IV. Individually, they don't stand a chance against the likes of Revan, Yoda and Luke but collectively they can deny each (among the latter) any breakthrough and overwhelm him with their firepower and collaborative offensive tactics.

Luke would handle them fine. He's been in tougher situations and fought tougher opponents. Oh, and as mentioned Revan was drawing on a very potent nexus. You say "Expect any Jedi" I never said any Jedi. We're talking about Luke Skywalker.

You are overreaching. And what are these tougher situations and who are these tougher opponents? Abeloth? In his first major encounter with Abeloth, Luke managed to exploit the surroundings to his advantage and destroyed an Abeloth's avatar in this manner. As I pointed out to you earlier, Abeloth is not a strategist, she is an idiot. However, Abeloth subdued Luke afterwards with another avatar and could have killed him right then and there but wasted the opportunity [PIS, my friend].

SWTOR sources are talking about up until this time period. You acknowledge that but don't bring disney canon into this. Disney only sees SWTOR as a separate universe as far in that it's non-canon. They view legends the same way. The actual quote has them calling it bioware's universe and "non-canon" in the same breath. It's like if I wrote a book then I call your story "Your universe" this isn't me acknowledging it as official. I'm just acknowledging your fanfic as your own interpretation of a universe I created/own.

Whatever you make out from this, caution is advised for taking outdated sources at face value. Disney (management) realized that it will have to make "changes" in SWTOR content to make it compatible with "canon continuity" but it doesn't wants to do so, and this says a lot about some developments in SWTOR. For example, it makes little sense to make Vitiate canon and then declare Darth Sidious as his superior after how Vitiate have been promoted and depicted in the lore. Disney would have redefine the character of Vitiate. But this is unlikely, my friend. Sometimes, we need to evaluate things from real-world perspective.

For example, the latest accolade of Darth Sidious in Legends (by publication date; 2011) is that he is the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history (and) a master of the Dark Side of the Force. Now, why would the author want to distinguish these two aspects? The author is implying in in-universe context that Darth Sidious became the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history since he forged the Galactic Empire and ruled over the galaxy with iron fist for years uncontested; no Sith Lord in galactic history have matched this accomplishment or became as powerful in authority. Darth Sidious was undoubtedly very powerful in the ways of the Force but his promotion as the "most powerful" realistically covers both his accomplishments and personal capabilities. In this manner, the author created room for another practitioner of the Dark Side and/or Sith Lord to be stronger and more capable then Darth Sidious in personal capacity (in ancient times) but unlikely to match his accomplishments under the dictum of "canon continuity."

However, latest developments in SWTOR suggest that Vitiate eventually succeeded at destroying both the Republic and reconstituted ancient Sith Empire with resources at his disposal and became the ruler of the entire galaxy as a consequence for some years. So this development also contradicts Darth Sidious's accomplishment as the only practitioner of the Dark Side in galactic history who managed to rule over the galaxy for some years. Another reason for Disney to not make SWTOR canon.

Ponder over the above for a moment, my friend.

Leia is gifted in many esoteric abilities but her most impressive showings are not as impressive as compared to some characters. She's a skywalker but hasn't realized her full potential. Have you even read the material she's in after Dark Empire? She wasn't that powerful. She was nowhere close at that point in time even compared to some of the Jedi in the prequel era. In fact I'd easily say most of the major jedi/sith in the old republic could have stomped her at that point. She was practically useless the whole time Luke dueled Sidious acknowledging she couldn't even follow them with her eyes. The wall of light needed her help but was mostly Luke. He also didn't "momentarily bring his entire potential to bare." because he broke free of the darkness. Quote? That's your interpretation. Luke became a lot stronger and even if he fell to the dark side briefly he learned a lot under his tutelage under Palpatine.

I did not claim that Leia Organa Solo was a powerhouse at this point, but her talents proved to be useful for Luke in his hour of need and it would not have been possible for Luke to defeat Darth Sidious without her help since Darth Sidious had eroded even his will to fight. This is the intended point.

Luke became very powerful in the gap between the events of Episode 6 and Dark Empire. Darth Sidious acknowledged this fact in their first meeting. In-fact, some of the best Luke's feats are in Dark Empire. I am not sure how much stronger Luke become after the events of Dark Empire but my assessment is that he peaked in strength during NJO at some point. Afterwards, their is a novel in which it is implied or stated that Luke no longer have the same strength and stamina that he used to have in earlier times; I don't recall exact details at the moment but I will need to do some digging to find this revelation.

It wasn't just any Jedi. It was Luke Skywalker.

And what did he accomplish with Wall of Light power when he used it singlehandedly?

You think he has less defenses than Jaden Korr and Kyle Katarn? I'm pretty sure Luke was very pre-occupied in his fight against Abeloth. Not to mention very exhausted. Force defenses can take quite a drain on their systems. It's about circumstance.

No, but even Luke's defensive abilities have limits. Darth Traya once pointed out that there are some techniques against which formal defenses do not work; she is a Jedi historian to boot. Formal defenses do not work against Force Drain; only special techniques can. And even the special techniques have limits as revealed by Ulic Qel-Droma. This is why even the likes of Abeloth do not have sufficient defenses against Force Drain powers.

I think that only Vitiate developed some credible approaches to circumvent or tackle Force Drain powers since he was the sole-survivor in the Nathema event and wasn't knocked-out during his reign as the Sith Emperor in the Sith Empire by his enemies among the rebellious Sith. But his knowledge stays with him.

She was busy battling it out with Luke Skywalker as well. Also I don't re-call any such thing. Can I have a source of Luke striking out at Krayt while he tried to drain him? I re-call him thinking that Krayt was draining Abeloth and was betraying him but then he realized that Krayt was hurting as much as he was taking. That krayt was doing everything he could to weaken her.

Here:

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You expect Luke Skywalker to keep his defenses down while fighting Abeloth? He would have died in the exchange of powers and offensive moves if his defenses were down. However, you can see that a Force Drain power (from Darth Krayt) penetrated through Luke's defenses and he eventually noticed.

If I re-call she actually tried draining Krayt then Krayt began to do it back. He was better at it but wasn't going by unscathed. It's been awhile so when I ask quotes here I'm being genuine.

I can direct you to a thread where I have mentioned the entire account, if you are interested.

Abeloth lost in this battle, thanks in part to being subjected to Force Drain powers by Darth Krayt.

No. There's plenty of sources that back it up. Facts aren't made up of opinions. Even if it was opinion you revealed a major flaw in your statement. If it's opinion you believe on the matter it's so close it might as well be subjective. You then call Revan a Luke tier force user. Revan was not as powerful as Vitiate. We have a quote that claims Luke would become 200% of Sidious. So if Revan isn't as strong as vitiate and if in your mind Vitiate is around Sidious' level then we have Luke who is twice that. Revan doesn't compare.

This is an endless debate of perceptions since "most powerful" topics are largely subjective. However, it is important to understand the nature of a revelation at hand and look at deeper possibilities.

That quote is from George Lucas and it should not be taken at face value because its a maybe in his own words; it is official that Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become more powerful then (canon) Darth Sidious but this is where the hype stops in the published literature. You don't bring maths in to this. Anakin Skywalker, in a demonstration of his full potential, can subdue both the Son and the Daughter together (unless I am missing something in this case). So if Anakin is 200% of Darth Sidious at his peak, so does this imply that Darth Sidious is as powerful as the Son otherwise? The Son is stronger then Darth Sidious in "canon continuity" at the least. Interestingly, Disney maintains that Anakin have the potential to become one the most powerful Jedi ever (not exactly the most powerful); it seems that Disney is keeping the door for creative liberties open. More importantly, Darth Sidious became much more powerful during the events of Dark Empire, so Lucas's assessment is not valid for this incarnation of Darth Sidious; Anakin Skywalker cannot be realistically expected to be 200% of Darth Sidious (Dark Empire) or even close since Darth Sidious was siphoning energy of billions of individuals to fuel his power during these times and could conjure superpowers at will with such magnitude of strength. And Luke defeated Darth Sidious (Dark Empire) with aid of Leia.

But if Lucas's remarks are to be taken at face value then Darth Maul, Count Dooku and Darth Vader are in the same league and Beni is still wrong about asserting that Darth Vader is much stronger then the former two. Here:

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." (George Lucas)

So why pick and choose?

Not to mention the "strike" team argument is a flawed way to determine who is more powerful. When it comes to power you look to feats that display power. Does Revan's most overt abilities match Luke's most overt abilities? No. They don't.

Yes, they do.

Some examples:

1. Revan sent all members of the Strike Team packing with a powerful Force wave (simultaneously), that confronted him on Yavin IV. This Force wave was so strong that it temporarily altered the atmosphere around the setting (creating a whirlwind effect in the air). It is a phenomenal display of telekinetic punch which you realize when you focus on the details of each member of the Strike Team involved. Now show me a comparable example of an offensive move from Luke against a Strike Team of similar strength.

2. Revan's ability to influence surroundings with sheer force of will while fighting several opponents simultaneously is another indication of Luke-tier combative capability. For example, Revan pulled down multiple space rocks in to the platform from the space (overcoming the Foundry's resistance in the process) where he was fighting an Imperial Strike Team, and he apparently performed this action with sheer force of will while fighting his opponents on the platform. No hand gestures involved.

3. Revan could block a dozen bolts of Force Lightning (of great intensity) with sheer raw power, something that only the best among the Jedi can hope to do.

4. Revan can teleport himself (or) fold-space from one location to another, a talent in which he matches or possibly surpasses Luke. Heck, Luke never teleported himself from one location to another, only an object or two.

I am sure that Revan have additional capabilities and showings where he stacks-up to Luke. Yes, Luke have his own grand showings which can be used in the argument for his superiority but do keep in mind that Revan's command of the Force is implied to be superior to the likes of Darth Traya, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus.

In the nutshell, Luke Skywalker might be (or is likely) better then Revan but not by a long shot.

So, my Revan post is almost ready, but I need one thing confirmed real quick. I put in a fair bit of time dismissing Rayla's arguments for Kun. After everything that's happened with her in the past, and her constant hate for the forum (revealed on KMC and in private) can we just ignore her arguments outright so I don't have to waste time finishing writing that?

I'm sure everyone here would like to see what I have written supporting Revan.