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PvP Jugg


Aignox

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Just came back to the game after a long hiatus.

 

What DPS spec are Juggs playing in pvp these days thats performing well.

 

If you go dps juggie for pvp you want vigi/veng

 

Focus/rage is nothing except a lesser performing fury mara.

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  • 1 month later...
you could actually try skank tanking, go immortal and use dps gear

 

A skank tsnk can he a powerful game changer in the right hands. Since he mentioned, dps, however I do not believe he should take this route as (despite the mistaken popular belief) a dps geared tsnk that does not guard or taunt is simply a bad dps and waste of a space a real dps could be using. I would also wait and see what the changes bring before building a dedicated skank set.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I really enjoy veng. With the right utility build you can be an extreme annoyance to healers, and it has great DPS.

 

Would you mind sharing that build for someone like me who has not played in a VERY long time? (2+ years)

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Would you mind sharing that build for someone like me who has not played in a VERY long time? (2+ years)

 

There are several viable options utility wise. It depends on how you play really. Id share mine but im not at my computer so youd get a lot of descriptions and no names. I tend to prefer leaving my DCDs to be used as DCDs and not minor speedups so i tend to not go for some popular choices anyway.

 

I go for:

resolute self heal (saved me a couple times, hardly mandatory), leap cd reduction on damage taken (very nice as it helps with the atrocious mobilty without sscrificing a DCD to do it), and master strike root (again hardly mandatory).

 

leap reset interrupt (i like interrupting things a lot)

 

FD CD reduction and aoe DR (i personally really like these, but the aoe DR could be dumped into more mobility)

 

Longer reflect (i get focused... a lot) and saber throw root/awe cd reduction (choose beteeen this and the guardian leap, in my opinion, both are good, it comes down to playstyle and preference).

 

Basically play around with it. Note my choices as a tank vary slightly, this was what i run for damage.

Edited by KendraP
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Would you mind sharing that build for someone like me who has not played in a VERY long time? (2+ years)

 

Close to what KP said. My usual PvP build is 1,2,3 - 2,4,6 - 2 - 3.

 

With the key utilities being overwhelm and thrown gauntlet, for the 3s root on saber throw and ravage (for my playstyle). The rest are pretty flexible.

 

The way I play it is to abuse the shatter ravage reset. When in healer focus mode you can root a healer for 9 straight seconds by doing a leap>ravage>filler>shatter>ravage>filler>saber throw combo. Shatter essentially gives you an 8s CD on roots, so you can chase a healer around rooting/pushing/choking, and they really can't get away.

 

I usually do the full combo when I have teammates around so they can blow up the healer whiles he's stuck there, works very well.

 

I won't claim this is the absolute best way to veng jugg, but I enjoy it a lot and I've done well with it. Play around with builds and see what suits you.

Edited by RiChess
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So between Vigilance and Defense which one is doing better on PVP and brings more to the team? I used to love tanking but a while back I changed to Vigilance because back then it was performing very well and killing a lot of stuff and I hate being the only one focusing targets while the team doesnt know what to do so I changed to dps.Thing is I havent been in the game for about a year and a half or a bit more and just subbed today again. Played some as Vigilance in pvp but didnt do much against a bunch of sorcs and healers. Just want to know how pvp is today and where I need to go from here with my Guardian.
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So between Vigilance and Defense which one is doing better on PVP and brings more to the team? I used to love tanking but a while back I changed to Vigilance because back then it was performing very well and killing a lot of stuff and I hate being the only one focusing targets while the team doesnt know what to do so I changed to dps.Thing is I havent been in the game for about a year and a half or a bit more and just subbed today again. Played some as Vigilance in pvp but didnt do much against a bunch of sorcs and healers. Just want to know how pvp is today and where I need to go from here with my Guardian.

 

Obligatory play the role you prefer message.

 

As a tank main myself, i would say a well played tank can be more game changing than vigi. And guardian tanks are certainly in a better place than dps guardians right now.

 

A class who functiona as the least mobile melee class, with emphasis on dot spreading for multiple target pressure is pretty hindered by no anti-focus if you know what i mean.

 

Guardian tanks have good synergy with sage healers in particular (guardian leap + sage pull), and were the least affected by the tank nerfs. Basically guardian tanks sre in a good spot, vigi is in a meh spot, and focus is completely outclassed by concentration sent (seriously, if you can play a focus guardian... you can play a concentration sent, do more damage, have actual tools for dealing with focus, better mobility, and the only downside is self heal).

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While I agree that Fury mara's are in a lot better place than Rage juggs I wouldn't go as far as to say that Fury completely outclasses Rage. Rage is actually quite mobile, between Enrage being used every ~18 seconds (rootbreak+ 6 seconds of 50% movement speed increase), a rootbreak on intercede and a rootbreak on Mad Dash, Rage juggs can stick to targets quite effectively. You also bring taunts to the table, which can be very helpful, especially if you have a healer on your team, since most of the focus will probably go their way, allowing you to get some of that sweet sweet protection.

 

So sure, Fury is better than Rage. But if you want to play Jugg dps in PvP, don't immediately discount Rage. If you want to actually burst down targets, you're certainly better of going Rage than going Vengeance.

Edited by AdjeYo
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  • 2 weeks later...

All 3 specs are awesome. Rage is not outclassed. It has worse dcds and no stun immunity but damage is savage and burst is arguably highest of all. Furious strike is on short cooldown, you have good mobility to stay on target and with ED scaled correctly recently you can fare quite well.

Vigi is great with high Aoe and single target dmg and some stun immunity, also better defense then Rage.

 

I would try all and choose a fav!

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Focus guardians have good burst... so does a concentration sentinel, who also has infinitely better mobility, arguably better better survivability assuming both have a healer, and a legitimate anti-focus.

 

FD is not even close to an anti-focus, as it is in fact far LESS effective with focus. Vs 1 person tunneling you, FD is a powerful tool, provided the opponent is stupid enough to keep hitting you through it (in this case, its usually more than a heal to full - the solution is simple, stun, cc, or even just kite until it wears off). No guardian dps gets the mileage out of FD a tank does. Bursting a dps guardian in 90s (or 2 min without the utility) is not difficult for competent dps, I've been focused from full as dps (in both specs) through FD even with a healer post-rescale multiple times.

 

"Outclassed" is not synonymous with "never play" - if focus is your spec, by all means keep at it. Ive been a vigi guardian since i started on dps guardians, but i am competent in all guardian specs and a tank main. By "outclassed" i mean simply practically anything a focus guardian can do... a concentration sentinel can do better. But skill at a class or spec will always come before switching around to whatever is supposedly good. The difference is not that huge. (That said, if you can play focus, you can probably play concenteation... and go run literal circles around focus guardians)

 

What a sentinel cant do as well is aoe pressure with enough single target burst to kill something. Vigi does that, with probably the easiest dot spread in the game, and a immunity on leap. Watchman does not have any semblance of burst - vigi does, and has an easier dot spread to boot. Couple this with the low mobility, and vigi guardian is set up to be a very respectable pressure dps... with one massive flaw: no anti focus.

Edited by KendraP
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SO I was running Vengeance/Vigilance on my toons but was told to try Rage.

I switched, did some solo, one match w a good healer did 1mil dps in one round. Way better than Vengeance, but since then, it's not seemed all that much better than vengeance.

 

Vigilance Guardian Stats:

Utility Points:

Second Wind, Trailblazer

Unremitting, Guardianship

Through Peace, Preparation

Unyielding Justice, Daunting Presence

 

Stats:

Mastery 7447

Power 4474

Crit 2143 (45.39% with 72.80 multiplier)

Alacrity 757 (7.63%)

Accuracy 768 (110.32%) (running accuracy stim for PvE stuff)

Mastery Crystals x2

 

Almost completely 240 augmented also.

 

Jugg Rage Build:

Utilities:

Payback, Overwhelm

Crushing Fist, Unstoppable, Unshackling Rage

Through Power

Thrown Gauntlet, Intimidating Presence

 

Stats:

Mastery 7593

Power 4509

Crit 1582 (42.21% with 84.49% multiplier)

Alacrity 1219 (11.29%)

Accuracy 627 (108.86%) (Running Mastery stim for PvP.)

Mastery Crystals x2

 

Almost completely 240 augmented excluding earpiece & implants.

 

Is there anything I should change to get better dps in ranked/granked matches? Or just PvP in general?

In PvE my Vigi/Veng build was pulling decent numbers.

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Rage is all about burst. Run ~750 alacrity, drop most of that accuracy and stack more crit. 2k crit is nice. Basically, your Vengeance build is is good for Rage... minus all that accuracy.

 

Vengeance outshines Rage in PvE. But I prefer the 1860 alacrity threshold for 1.3s gcd.

 

Personally, I don't like Vengeance as much in PvP because intelligent players move away right before the obvious dot spread.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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Rage is all about burst. Run ~750 alacrity, drop most of that accuracy and stack more crit. 2k crit is nice. Basically, your Vengeance build is is good for Rage... minus all that accuracy.

 

Vengeance outshines Rage in PvE. But I prefer the 1860 alacrity threshold for 1.3s gcd.

 

Personally, I don't like Vengeance as much in PvP because intelligent players move away right before the obvious dot spread.

 

Well since they're mirror builds excluding the left side, I'm honestly not sure why the stats are that different on my toons. lol But that is some major difference.. Hmm I will look into that.

 

Is there a priority pattern for Rage?

I usually use my Vengeance pattern for opening in PvP. But I'm not sure how well that works.

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Basically, never use saber throw as your opener. I see a lot of people do this.

 

What to know:

  • Enrage and Force Crush proc your Raging Burst to deal 15% more damage and cost no rage.
  • Force Charge and Obliterate proc an autocrit on your Raging Burst.
  • So always use Force Charge OR Obliterate and Enrage OR Force Crush before you use Raging Burst.
  • Obliterate makes your Force Scream deal 5% more damage and generate 1 rage instead of costing rage.
  • Raging Burst makes you deal 5% more damage for 6s, so try to use Furious Strike within that window.
  • Furious Strike applies a debuff to the target that makes them take 5% more damage from melee attacks.
  • Force Crush makes your next Obliterate or Furious Strike cost no Rage.

 

It's hard to have a rotation for pvp, but generally this priority system/opener:

Force Charge, then Enrage + Raging Burst, then Furious Strike, then Ravage, then Force Scream, then Sunder.[/b]

 

From there: Obliterate, then Force Crush, Raging Burst, Furious Strike, Ravage, Force Scream, Sunder.

 

Add in Vicious Throw if it's available at 30% enemy health.

 

Because you build rage when you take damage, you may not actually need to use Sunder very often in PvP, but it is nice to use sometimes to apply the armor debuff to your target.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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I really enjoy veng. With the right utility build you can be an extreme annoyance to healers, and it has great DPS.

 

yeah and breaks trinity and makes pure DPS spec's moot. If your going for DPS man up and accept your suppose to be a glass cannon!

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yeah and breaks trinity and makes pure DPS spec's moot. If your going for DPS man up and accept your suppose to be a glass cannon!

 

Opers offheal, mandos offheal, dps sorcs offheal - is there anyone calling a dps sorc op? Even freaking snipers have small self heals now, vg has a self heal that sucks, shadows even have a slight selfheal i think (just verified, yes battle readiness). Thats 7/8 classes with some form of self heal. Keep in mind all self heals cannot be equal because each spec also has other DCDs. As a shadow (along with operstive) you have the most effective antifocus/disengage in the game.

 

All dps specs of tank capable classes can use guard.

 

Guardian dps is the least mobile melee class with no anti-focus tool. As i have explained to you so many times i don't bother to count any more, FD is not an anti-focus, and is deceeasingly less effective unded focus. This js in direct contrast to mercs, who combine reflect and FD into one button, and their reflect is better (it reflects more damage types, or i think it does).

 

Heres a shocker: if you're trying to 1v1 a guardian, watch his buffs. If he has FD active, use a nondamaging CC (lift, mez, etc) until it is down and he wastes all the stacks. Alternately just kite him, because he is probably slower than you.

 

Further edit: anyone thinking pure dps specs are moot is dumb. Snipers have several decent options to pvp with (I've seen marksmen and engineering) and fury maras are still quite good (and mara is the one class with no self heal, huh)

Edited by KendraP
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Guardian dps is the least mobile melee class with no anti-focus tool.

 

Sorry to cherry pick your post, but LEAST MOBILE?!

 

I find it mandatory to take Focused Freedom, True Harmony, and Persistent Chill as a dps guardian. Debilitation to root targets too.

 

Can I just say that Persistent Chill is an excellent utility? I know it doesn't deal as much damage any more but it slows your target while speeding you up. It's a win win.

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Sorry to cherry pick your post, but LEAST MOBILE?!

 

I find it mandatory to take Focused Freedom, True Harmony, and Persistent Chill as a dps guardian. Debilitation to root targets too.

 

Can I just say that Persistent Chill is an excellent utility? I know it doesn't deal as much damage any more but it slows your target while speeding you up. It's a win win.

 

Yeah the pathetic damage is totally worth taking a utility point for in a tier that already has the longer reflect, guardian leap improvement, and saber throw root/awe cd reduction (pick 2 of 3). You can slow targets without blowing a utility point for it.

 

And if you can use focused defense as a speed up, you really need to experience guardian dps under focus, seriously you may as well recommend the enure cleanse here. At least then you could use a less useful defensive as a speed up. (And no i don't take the enure cleanse).

 

Out of all the utilities you mentioned, i only take the root on whatever we're calling master strike now.

 

Lets look at the other melee classes:

Most prominently, mara, who in addition to our tools, have transcendence (greatly inproved by utility) and can spec into a second leap. Oh that healer you just leapt to force sped away? Leap again. Also force camo, so actual disengage.

 

Operatives: roll. Need i say more? Also stealth out, dodge, and lots of other toys.

 

Shadow: force speed, short CD and 60% DR woth utility, and a stealth out. I sympathize with the removal of phase walk but they are still more mobile than guardians.

 

Vg: still has some short range abilities, in addition to hold the line (note I'm including them here to point out the mobility thing, but VG has less effective survivability as they too lack an anti-focus and FD is an infinitely better self heal than VG kolto.)

 

So yes, least mobile melee class with no anti-focus.

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Yeah the pathetic damage is totally worth taking a utility point for in a tier that already has the longer reflect, guardian leap improvement, and saber throw root/awe cd reduction (pick 2 of 3). You can slow targets without blowing a utility point for it.

 

As a tank, I'm sure you find the +2s to reflect somewhat useful. As a Focus and Vigi player, I think it's situational. Same with Jedi Warden (saber throw/awe). Thwart (guardian leap improvement) is pretty good. The reason I like Persistent Chills that you can use it infinitely for a very minimal amount of force: slows enemies, speeds you up, AND deals an aoe dot. I think Cut Loose (lowers cd on blade blitz and purges roots/slows) is better than Jedi Warden.

 

It sounds like we have different playstyles. You think like a tank and as such, you are probably a great peeler for heals, even when in dps spec. This is not a criticism. :)

 

And if you can use focused defense as a speed up, you really need to experience guardian dps under focus, seriously you may as well recommend the enure cleanse here. At least then you could use a less useful defensive as a speed up. (And no i don't take the enure cleanse).

 

The Focused Defense speed is definitely situational. I like it as an added bonus to our self heal ability.

 

Out of all the utilities you mentioned, i only take the root on whatever we're calling master strike now.

Yeah that's the debilitation one I mentioned. Good one.

 

Lets look at the other melee classes:

Most prominently, mara, who in addition to our tools, have transcendence (greatly inproved by utility) and can spec into a second leap. Oh that healer you just leapt to force sped away? Leap again. Also force camo, so actual disengage.

 

Operatives: roll. Need i say more? Also stealth out, dodge, and lots of other toys.

 

Shadow: force speed, short CD and 60% DR woth utility, and a stealth out. I sympathize with the removal of phase walk but they are still more mobile than guardians.

 

Vg: still has some short range abilities, in addition to hold the line (note I'm including them here to point out the mobility thing, but VG has less effective survivability as they too lack an anti-focus and FD is an infinitely better self heal than VG kolto.)

 

So yes, least mobile melee class with no anti-focus.

 

In my mind, Shadows have the worst mobility, which puts Guardian Juggs 3rd. And really, VG only has good mobility for 10s every 35s :p.

 

Addendum: With a Guardian in Focus spec, you have Zealous Leap which can be used within 10m regardless of slow or roots. With Guardian in Vigi, I definitely take Battlefield Command (reduces leap cd by 1s each time you're attacked) because you get X number of seconds of KB/slow/stun immunity after a leap.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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As a tank, I'm sure you find the +2s to reflect somewhat useful. As a Focus and Vigi player, I think it's situational. Same with Jedi Warden (saber throw/awe). Thwart (guardian leap improvement) is pretty good. The reason I like Persistent Chills that you can use it infinitely for a very minimal amount of force: slows enemies, speeds you up, AND deals an aoe dot. I think Cut Loose (lowers cd on blade blitz and purges roots/slows) is better than Jedi Warden.

 

It sounds like we have different playstyles. You think like a tank and as such, you are probably a great peeler for heals, even when in dps spec. This is not a criticism. :)

 

 

 

The Focused Defense speed is definitely situational. I like it as an added bonus to our self heal ability.

 

 

Yeah that's the debilitation one I mentioned. Good one.

 

 

 

In my mind, Shadows have the worst mobility, which puts Guardian Juggs 3rd. And really, VG only has good mobility for 10s every 35s :p.

 

Addendum: With a Guardian in Focus spec, you have Zealous Leap which can be used within 10m regardless of slow or roots. With Guardian in Vigi, I definitely take Battlefield Command (reduces leap cd by 1s each time you're attacked) because you get X number of seconds of KB/slow/stun immunity after a leap.

 

Utility points are so personal playstyle oriented that whatever I'm not arguing the issue. I still say that post nerf the focus spent spamming a now pathetic dot is better spent elsewhere, since the slow effect is there utility or not.

 

I too take the leap cd reduction on damage taken with utility when i go vigi. I rarely go focus for pvp as, at that point i may as well log over to my concentration sentinel.

 

And shadows have the worst mobility? That's almost funny. They might have lost phase walk but force speed every 20 seconds, and force speed lets you move wherever you want, rsther than uni-directional. And they now have a proper (if buggy as crap) gap closer in phantom stride.

 

I am in no way claiming VG is better at pvp than guardian. It isnt. PT is more mobile, with hydraulic overrides, a few (though many taken away) 10m abilities, and a leap (however stupid it is that they get it at 59). Oh and all PT also have a pull, though technically not a mobility thing, it can bring a target in range.

 

This is why guardians have FD i think - we are essentially going to be sitting in a bunch of enemies and sometimes get stuck there. For any evidence see sniper and fire probe. Who do they always spam it on? Me (well, or my healer).

Edited by KendraP
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