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What is horizontal leveling?


Slamuel

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I keep hearing of this, and some people say it should replace the PvP gear grind. What is this?

 

It means that instead of leveling like you do now (1-50 level grind) you progress in a different way. (Kinda like legacy).

 

I think.

 

Also, to your sig... No. I like Kevin J. Anderson too.

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Play battlefield. basically the same thing. Basically everyone is the same other then skill from my understanding.

 

All points bulletin does this as well.

 

nvm read what it was.

basically Battlefield. add in 5 types of weapons, armor, and such.

Edited by Wefi
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Play battlefield. basically the same thing. Basically everyone is the same other then skill from my understanding.

 

All points bulletin does this as well.

 

nvm read what it was.

basically Battlefield. add in 5 types of weapons, armor, and such.

 

Well I'm even more confuse than I was before. I'm gonna try Google.

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Well I'm even more confuse than I was before. I'm gonna try Google.

 

Well google led me to an article about it. It stinks! Basically it's the same old hammer-the-rpg-into-a-shooter arguement.

Gear makes no difference because every noob can get the same gear. So it comes down to player ability, and computer ability. Young kids with $5000 computers up against casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage.

Never mind some of us adults have arthritis.

If SWTOR goes for horizontal scaling it will drive older casual players (you know, the ones with paid subscriptions) from the game.

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Well google led me to an article about it. It stinks! Basically it's the same old hammer-the-rpg-into-a-shooter arguement.

Gear makes no difference because every noob can get the same gear. So it comes down to player ability, and computer ability. Young kids with $5000 computers up against casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage.

Never mind some of us adults have arthritis.

If SWTOR goes for horizontal scaling it will drive older casual players (you know, the ones with paid subscriptions) from the game.

 

So what you are saying is you deserve some kind of advantage because you have a ****** computer and arthritis?

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So what you are saying is you deserve some kind of advantage because you have a ****** computer and arthritis?

 

LMAO how exactly is that an advantage?? If you want a SHOOTER then go buy a SHOOTER.

Horizontal scaling takes away the RPG elements and makes it just another shooter for kids to play on the computer daddy bought for them, and leave in 3 weeks when they get bored.

There is no more story line, because you can jump right into Eternity Vault on day one.

 

Oh wait!! Remember how people left in hordes because they were bored? It started in mid-January and hasn't let up since.

People play shooters for a few months AT MOST before they get bored and move on to a different game.

Give an RPG'er a game he enjoys and you'll have to run him off with a stick!

The people who left were almost entirely teen agers and college kids who raced through content to be the first to beat every boss at every difficulty level, and then they were gone.

 

I once played an MMO for over 4 years with the same toon. I once spent 4 month killing red dragons for their hides for crafting. I don't need new content every other week because I'm "bored". But when I see someone with War Hero gear, I'd like to know he put in the time to EARN IT not just that his daddy bought him a shiny new computer and it was handed to him the minute he logged in.

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I once played an MMO for over 4 years with the same toon. I once spent 4 month killing red dragons for their hides for crafting. I don't need new content every other week because I'm "bored". But when I see someone with War Hero gear, I'd like to know he put in the time to EARN IT not just that his daddy bought him a shiny new computer and it was handed to him the minute he logged in.

 

not to mention how much the combat sucked when you were killing them

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not to mention how much the combat sucked when you were killing them

 

Eh, not really. It was just a matter of learning the proper method and I could grind all day long.

That's the thing. Most grown ups don't mind working towards a goal. It's part of being a grown up.

It doesn't bother me that some of my guild mates are in full, augmented war hero gear, while I've yet to achieve full battle master. They're good at it, enjoy it, and put in the time to earn it.

It doesn't bother me that they earned achievements long before I did. As I gradually improve my gear, I'm also learning.

 

My problem is, if they try to model an RPG after a shooter, there is no way I'll be able to progress through the content.

I've played enough games to know which genre I'm good at, and which I get frustrated and quit.

The only time I play games like Halo, is when I'm hanging out with my brother-in-law and nephew. So far, I've been able to hold my own against my 10 year old nephew, but the brother-in-law beats me like a rented mule every time.

 

If they wanted the Halo model, they could have gone that route, and probably had a good game. But you can't build a shooter, and call it an RPG, even if you bought the rights to the Dungeons and Dragons trade mark.

 

That being said, another angle I read had to do with making low level areas work similar to war zones. That being that a lvl 50 could go to Coruscant and help a guildie with a quest, without nerfing his buddy's xp, because his stats would be modified to match the zone. That might have merit, provided it was voluntary and not automatic. The way people do Esseles for social points now.

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So what you are saying is you deserve some kind of advantage because you have a ****** computer and arthritis?

 

Yes, he does say that, and I wholeheartedly support him in that. Neither computer hardware nor hypernervous 15yearold's reflexes should make you a good gamer. Games that do are broken. Go play pong with that skill set.

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Well google led me to an article about it. It stinks! Basically it's the same old hammer-the-rpg-into-a-shooter arguement.

Gear makes no difference because every noob can get the same gear. So it comes down to player ability, and computer ability. Young kids with $5000 computers up against casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage.

Never mind some of us adults have arthritis.

If SWTOR goes for horizontal scaling it will drive older casual players (you know, the ones with paid subscriptions) from the game.

 

I'm not for or against either model, however the horizontal progression is more appealing to me because it comes down to skill, not who can spend the most time infront of the computer grinding gear for hours and hours. But now I understand why the vertical progression gear grind is widely accepted.

 

I love my share of older RPGs too. Even gear grind ones like FFXI. But everytime you finally get that last piece of your gear set they release another tier. Now you have to start grinding for that piece to stay competitive. I'm getting tired of that model though. It should be who is more skilled not who has the time to sit on their *** all day.

 

From my point of view, the gear grind is actually a barrier for the "casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage" group. The group has a job and a life, and doesnt have time to spend hours upon hours grinding for gear. The gear grind actually benefits those people that dont have jobs and can play all day. So it comes down to who is more skilled and PvP/Skill vs Skill, not Gear vs Gear, in a horizontal progression MMO.

 

I find your logic, illogical, good sir. But you have your point of view, and I have mine. To each his own! :)

 

TL;DR: Vertical Progression (Gear Grind model) benefits those who dont have jobs because they have the time to grind the gear.

 

LMAO how exactly is that an advantage?? If you want a SHOOTER then go buy a SHOOTER.

Horizontal scaling takes away the RPG elements[...]

 

You don't need +10 stat to each tier of gear to have a good RPG. It's about the story, not who does 20 more damage...

Edited by Katsuragisama
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I guess it depends on how you want to define "skill"

If you play this game for a while different types of players will begin to make themselves apparent.

Group one, the power gamers. College kids with excellent reflexes and top end computers. They were the first to beat every nightmare mode boss that came their way. And also the first to leave when a new game rolled out.

They can be spotted most easily when they are gone. There was an Imp guild on Jedi Covenant that dominated PVP, but just recently I heard they fell apart.

The next group, lets call "scrubs" ( term one of my guildies uses in place of newb). They lack the gear and gaming skills of the power gamer, but chatting with them quickly ID's them as a teen ager. I don't know why, but adults can always tell.

The last bunch, (yes I know this is not all inclusive) are casual gamers. They lack the twitchy reflexes of the power gamer, but they make up for that in other areas. If they find a game they enjoy, they will play it for YEARS.

It may have taken me months and months to get a full set of Rakata, but I got it.

My second toon is well on his way, and a third already has a partial set thanks to legacy gear at level 44.

Yea, it would have been nice to be among the members of my guild when they earned sever first hard mode kills. They earned it, but now some of them are playing other games, and swtor is just a memory.

The ones that remain, I admit, are amazing to watch.

I'll be here till they shut the lights out, or really screw the game up, and trust me, this game is nowhere near screwed up.

My point being, if you are among those highly talented power gamers, the level grind is no obstacle. Doing away with it only shortens the time needed to "beat" and throw the game in the used bin. And it also takes away the story from the casual gamer. It becomes nothing more than beat the clock after you've finished the first time, trying to beat your best time.

 

So I'm back to my original statement. If you want a shooter, buy a flipping shooter.

Edited by JacksonMo
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I'm not for or against either model, however the horizontal progression is more appealing to me because it comes down to skill, not who can spend the most time infront of the computer grinding gear for hours and hours. But now I understand why the vertical progression gear grind is widely accepted.

 

I love my share of older RPGs too. Even gear grind ones like FFXI. But everytime you finally get that last piece of your gear set they release another tier. Now you have to start grinding for that piece to stay competitive. I'm getting tired of that model though. It should be who is more skilled not who has the time to sit on their *** all day.

 

From my point of view, the gear grind is actually a barrier for the "casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage" group. The group has a job and a life, and doesnt have time to spend hours upon hours grinding for gear. The gear grind actually benefits those people that dont have jobs and can play all day. So it comes down to who is more skilled and PvP/Skill vs Skill, not Gear vs Gear, in a horizontal progression MMO.

 

I find your logic, illogical, good sir. But you have your point of view, and I have mine. To each his own! :)

 

TL;DR: Vertical Progression (Gear Grind model) benefits those who dont have jobs because they have the time to grind the gear.

 

 

 

You don't need +10 stat to each tier of gear to have a good RPG. It's about the story, not who does 20 more damage...

 

Actually that is false. Casual gamers will put in more effort over time and achieve more. I've seen it over and over.

In another game and a different guild, exclusively adult, my guild were the best geared in the game, because grownups know how to WORK towards a goal. And while they might only have an hour here and an hour there, over time, they will get what they're working towards.

The "skilled" gamers you are talking about give up and quit if they don't beat the game in a matter of hours.

They might be able to beat EC HM in un-augmented columni gear, and that is impressive.

That's fine. You "beat the game" in record time. Don't ruin it for the rest of us, we will get there in our own time.

 

I had this discussion with a former guild mate. (Surprise! He's one of the ones who quit the game!)

He couldn't grasp why we weren't face-rolling EC HM. He was remembering when the power-gamers pulled it off, and was frustrated that the new group was having so much trouble.

Frankly, the better stats make a big difference. I've noticed it. And it's the reason I've been pushing EV and KP HM runs. The power gamer can farm EC SM in full columni, but realistically, what are the odds of them staying together as a group?

 

The gear grind works because it favors the casual gamer who will pay a monthly subscription fee, but shy's away from paying $75 to $100 for a new game every few months. That's how most MMO's pay the bills.

See, that's where having a job is actually an advantage. :cool:

Edited by JacksonMo
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because grownups know how to WORK towards a goal.

 

Many grownups also do not have such extremely narrow minded views as those you have shown in this thread, because their life experiences have tought them differently. :)

 

The "go play a shooter if you don't want to grind" is in my opinion one of the most narrow mided statements which regurarly comes up on this forum.

It's like saying "no you can not have cheese on your pasta, go buy a cheeseburger if you want cheese".

 

You didn't stop to think that maybe the people who wishes this game was more focused on skill and less on grinding, say that because they like the gameplay?

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Many grownups also do not have such extremely narrow minded views as those you have shown in this thread, because their life experiences have tought them differently. :)

 

The "go play a shooter if you don't want to grind" is in my opinion one of the most narrow mided statements which regurarly comes up on this forum.

It's like saying "no you can not have cheese on your pasta, go buy a cheeseburger if you want cheese".

 

You didn't stop to think that maybe the people who wishes this game was more focused on skill and less on grinding, say that because they like the gameplay?

 

You're not defining "skill" so I'm left to assume you mean those twitchy hyper-reactive reflexes that wear off over time after age 25. If instead you mean learning the mechanics of a given fight, and knowing which abilities at your disposal to get the job done, then we are simply misunderstanding each other.

The vast majority people who want to do away with grinding all together, seem to be talking about the former. And top end computers, you wouldn't believe how snobbish they are about their computer.

Your cheeseburger analogy doesn't even make sense.

A better analogy would be walking into Pizza Hut and demanding lobster. And getting mad when someone points out there is a Red Lobster right next door. "Why can't Pizza Hut serve lobster!?! Some people don't like pepperoni, so they should remove it! And don't tell me to go to Red Lobster!" That's pretty much what you're doing.

You are showing a good deal of narrow mindedness here as well. You think all adults are exactly alike.... except me. Really?

Edited by JacksonMo
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Just to add my $0.02 into the mix, as an employed adult who plays semi-casually.

 

The gear progression is attractive to me because I like the sense of improvement of my characters, because I can conquer something that used to be hard, and because I like shiny things.

 

When I first tried endgame content and raids I had a lot of troubles. Now granted, with exceptional skill and good teamwork, much of that content can be mastered without high level gear. BUT if you can augment your current level of skill with better gear, you can more easily recover from mistakes and flubs during difficult fights and succeed.

 

Also, if you're chafing at the time in takes to do progression, a guild is the way to go. One of our guildies leveled an alt and dinged 50. He bought Recruit gear, and we immediately took him through HM EV and HM KP. We gave all possible drops to him. 3 hours after hitting 50 his new tank was ready for SM EC.

Edited by JeffKretz
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You're not defining "skill" so I'm left to assume you mean those twitchy hyper-reactive reflexes that wear off over time after age 25.

I'm sorry but I don't see why you would think that what you are explaining is what people are asking for. To me it is pretty obvious that the people asking for there to not be vertical leveling in a TOR-like MMO would still want the gameplay to be similar to what it is now. Why would people bother saying that they wish that there was not a vertical leveling system if they didn't like the gameplay in the first place?

 

No one is asking for the entire genre of the game to be changed into something completely different.

 

Or perhaps you think that all games which do not have a vertical leveling system needs to be twitchy? Have you tried chess?

 

Your cheeseburger analogy doesn't even make sense.

A better analogy would be walking into Pizza Hut and demanding lobster. And getting mad when someone points out there is a Red Lobster right next door. "Why can't Pizza Hut serve lobster!?! Some people don't like pepperoni, so they should remove it! And don't tell me to go to Red Lobster!" That's pretty much what you're doing.

My analogy was already meant to be over the top, to show you how rediculous what you are saying is, but you actually managed to take it next level and make it even more rediculous.

It seems like you keep thinking that people who do not want a vertical leveling system all want to play a completely different game, which of course couldn't be further from the truth. If people wanted to play a game that's completely different in every way, then they would just play a different game.

 

You are showing a good deal of narrow mindedness here as well. You think all adults are exactly alike.... except me. Really?

Do not try to twist my words, I have never written anything whatsoever about "all adults", and the only reason why I even wrote that sentance in the first place was because I was hoping that it would have made you pause and think for a moment.

Edited by Rassuro
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You're not defining "skill" so I'm left to assume you mean those twitchy hyper-reactive reflexes that wear off over time after age 25. If instead you mean learning the mechanics of a given fight, and knowing which abilities at your disposal to get the job done, then we are simply misunderstanding each other.

The vast majority people who want to do away with grinding all together, seem to be talking about the former. And top end computers, you wouldn't believe how snobbish they are about their computer.

Your cheeseburger analogy doesn't even make sense.

A better analogy would be walking into Pizza Hut and demanding lobster. And getting mad when someone points out there is a Red Lobster right next door. "Why can't Pizza Hut serve lobster!?! Some people don't like pepperoni, so they should remove it! And don't tell me to go to Red Lobster!" That's pretty much what you're doing.

You are showing a good deal of narrow mindedness here as well. You think all adults are exactly alike.... except me. Really?

 

You aren't actually reading what other people are saying, you're just skimming it and drawing your own conclusions based on the way you believe people are going to react. Nobody ever said anything about the game being a shooter, you ASSUMED that, because you saw the word "shooter", all they said was that the MODEL of the way leveling up works in a shooter might be applicable to an RPG. Further, nobody said anything about twitch based gameplay that all us young whippersnappers or whatever excel at, but you assumed that they did, because that's what you wanted to hear and were "prepared" to argue against. I'm a college student, 19 years old, and have an excellent computer. Despite this, aside from occasionally poking fun at my friend for having a crappy computer, I am not "snobbish" about it.

 

You seem to be assuming that all adults think the way you do, which could not be more wrong. The people who rush through everything and complain do not all belong to one single group besides that. I've been playing this game since last August, and in that time I have gotten a grand total of three level 50s, with a few that are close. Do I spend more time on the computer than I should? Sure. Do I come on here and complain, though? No I do not sir, which is more than I can say for you. The young people aren't the problem, the problem is that with gaming becoming more mainstream, people who are newer to games, who just want to have fun and still be good at the game, without really want to put in work, are at odds with those who do not, who have been playing for longer, and tend to stick with games, but will also tend to be elitist at times. And then there are those like myself who don't really know where the hell they fit in.

 

Anyway, on topic, I do think a horizontal leveling system might be interesting, but unfortunately the MMO industry, and to some extent the entire gaming industry is in a weird spot right now. On one hand people claim they want something new and exciting, but they fail to realize that something completely different is too weird and risky for a company to put out. So instead the industry has to gradually move from one mindset to another. I think the WoW model is dying, slowly, and one day we may see a successful MMO with horizontal leveling, but its not going to happen any time soon.

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Well google led me to an article about it. It stinks! Basically it's the same old hammer-the-rpg-into-a-shooter arguement.

Gear makes no difference because every noob can get the same gear. So it comes down to player ability, and computer ability. Young kids with $5000 computers up against casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage.

Never mind some of us adults have arthritis.

If SWTOR goes for horizontal scaling it will drive older casual players (you know, the ones with paid subscriptions) from the game.

 

Or you can do what many adults do and put gaming on hold. Begin finding ways to make your life better. I did that a month ago and it helped me wonders. I already bought a $2,000 gaming rig so I plan on being a basement troll again and living the rest of my life sub-par.

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LMAO how exactly is that an advantage?? If you want a SHOOTER then go buy a SHOOTER.

Horizontal scaling takes away the RPG elements and makes it just another shooter for kids to play on the computer daddy bought for them, and leave in 3 weeks when they get bored.

There is no more story line, because you can jump right into Eternity Vault on day one.

The debate over horizontal progression vs vertical centres around PvP not PvE. And PvP like in the swtor warzones isn't really rpg like except in the sense of being able to have different character builds. And having different abilities instead of a power creep can be part of horizontal levelling.

 

Taugrim explains it well:

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

 

In fact horizontal levelling is part of rpgs. Some of the old systems that competed with DnD back in the day had more horizontal systems that were based around gaining more abilities than more power.

Edited by Morrolan
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I haven't read all the replies in this thread but if you haven't found an answer yet, check out this video:

 

 

He explains what Horizontal Scaling is, how MMORPGs have done in the past with vertical scaling and why horizontal scaling could be a better alternative. Well worth watch.

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Yes, he does say that, and I wholeheartedly support him in that. Neither computer hardware nor hypernervous 15yearold's reflexes should make you a good gamer. Games that do are broken. Go play pong with that skill set.

 

Computer - No. Mostly. If you have a total pos, then buy a new computer dude.

 

Reflexes - Yes.

 

At some point when 2 people are trying to do the same thing, the one who does it faster should win.

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A really good example of the differences in people.

Those who want to work to accomplish something.

And those who want everything handed to them.

 

I was new to MMO's when SWTOR started and went through many false starts.

I finally have a "toon" almost 50 and believe I accomplished something.

I only used the hints and tips from fourms and the internet when I was really stuck.

 

If I was given the 50 and all the gear I spent time to gather. I would have probably

left the game a long time ago.

You can keep your FPS where everyone is the same.

I like the mental challenge and the story lines.

 

BTW: I'm one of those over 50 casual players. Even when I was 19 I would have probably loved this.

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LMAO how exactly is that an advantage?? If you want a SHOOTER then go buy a SHOOTER.

Horizontal scaling takes away the RPG elements and makes it just another shooter for kids to play on the computer daddy bought for them, and leave in 3 weeks when they get bored.

There is no more story line, because you can jump right into Eternity Vault on day one.

 

Oh wait!! Remember how people left in hordes because they were bored? It started in mid-January and hasn't let up since.

People play shooters for a few months AT MOST before they get bored and move on to a different game.

Give an RPG'er a game he enjoys and you'll have to run him off with a stick!

The people who left were almost entirely teen agers and college kids who raced through content to be the first to beat every boss at every difficulty level, and then they were gone.

 

I once played an MMO for over 4 years with the same toon. I once spent 4 month killing red dragons for their hides for crafting. I don't need new content every other week because I'm "bored". But when I see someone with War Hero gear, I'd like to know he put in the time to EARN IT not just that his daddy bought him a shiny new computer and it was handed to him the minute he logged in.

 

My question is, if a kid has his dad to buy him a brand new computer. Doesn't that dad have a job and mortgate to pay as well? I'd much rather it be based on skill then gear

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I haven't read all the replies in this thread but if you haven't found an answer yet, check out this video:

 

 

He explains what Horizontal Scaling is, how MMORPGs have done in the past with vertical scaling and why horizontal scaling could be a better alternative. Well worth watch.

 

So let me get this straight. Vertical grinding is bad. Grinding the same content endlessly hoping to improve your performance is good?

Grinding is grinding. The only real change is he wants to do away with gear and make it more of a score board competition. Well, you can get gear, but it does nothing but look pretty.

This really sounds like Dailies on a low pop server. You can't do flash points because you can never get a group together, and forget about ops unless you befriend someone who knows a group who used to play wow together.

So you're stuck doing dailies in the same gear for weeks on end, just trying to improve your time.

 

Has this concept already been tried in other games? Which ones? I'd like to read the reviews.

He does seem to like the way pvp is set up with the 1-49 group being buffed so that everyone is on par with each other stat wise. I would be in favor of doing similar with flash points so that everyone in the group is buffed to be able to run the instance with similar stats. It should be voluntary though. I should be able, if I choose, to run my guild mate through an instance to complete an orange gear set for his alt.

 

Also, there is no need to read the majority of the posts. They are just people telling me what an idiot I am and that I suck for not jumping on the band wagon. I believe someone accused my mother of being a hamster and my father smelling of elder berries. But I could be mistaken. In any case, they were quite rude.

 

Thank you for the clip. But you have to admit, his idea still sounds very grindy.

 

Edit: I guess there is one flaw in my comparison. At least with Dailies there are actual rewards that are useful, not just a flashy title, or pointless achievement gear. woohoo. </sarcasm>

Edited by JacksonMo
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