But if you mean how is she going to get the Sith out before the big boom, then good question. Foresight will play a big part in this, I reckon if Malachor is to be destroyed, Traya will see it as soon as the Kaggath begins. As soon as. And then transfer her academy to Korriban and perhaps make Malachor some kind of trap...

I did a little fact-checking on seeing the future with the Force. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_vision

This is very interesting:

Force vision had its limitations. Palpatine, in his visions of the future, never saw himself die. Darth Caedus also saw many possibilities of the future, yet none of them involved his death. It is unknown why this limitation occurred.

So Traya will NOT be able to see her death until it is too late. That means that if she is killed when Malacor is destroyed via MSG, she will not forsee her fortress being destoryed at all. And if she fails to see it being destoryed in the future, it could be a very good reason for her to stay.... and all the while the clock is actually ticking. (EDIT: This is VERY similar to the Death Star II and Darth Sidious. Would he have stayed if he knew it was gonna be blow up? No. Would he have left if he knew he was going to die? Yes. But he could sense neither.)

Generally, when peering deep into the Force, a Force user had the potential to see events that could happen in the future. Force Visions were extremely rare, and uncontrollable. Often, one would meditate to gain a vision, but only a few would actually succeed.

Traya cannot simply say "Hmm, I wonder if Malachor will be destroyed, hold up, let me check." It doesn't work like that. Knowing the last mandaloian would fall to the hands of the Jedi? Could have had that vision years ago. And the futures she saw of the other companions were, in my opinion, due to the bond she shared with the Exile, who in turn shared bonds with all of them. And to prove her inaccuracy, she could not sense Boa Dur's future. She can't just discover whatever she wants. She doesn't know the full future of everything in the galaxy. Add to that the fact that most of G0-T0's forces are droids that she can't sense, and her forsight is pretty much useless here.

And finally:

Always in motion, the future is. -Yoda

To be honest, HK-50s being able to pose as simple protocol droids seems rather stupid lol. I mean, why didn't it strike anyone as odd that a droid resembling an HK-24 assassin droid is a simple protocol droid? The last thought, I would think an HK-50 to be is a simple protocol droid.

 

Especially when HK stands for Hunter Killer...hmm...

Clarification: Master, how silly of you. HK is a nonstandard droid designation for "Hugs/Kisses". Now, please allow me to facilitate communications...

I did a little fact-checking on seeing the future with the Force. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_vision

 

This is very interesting:

 

So Traya will NOT be able to see her death until it is too late. That means that if she is killed when Malacor is destroyed via MSG, she will not forsee her fortress being destoryed at all. And if she fails to see it being destoryed in the future, it could be a very good reason for her to stay.... and all the while the clock is actually ticking. (EDIT: This is VERY similar to the Death Star II and Darth Sidious. Would he have stayed if he knew it was gonna be blow up? No. Would he have left if he knew he was going to die? Yes. But he could sense neither.)

 

 

Traya cannot simply say "Hmm, I wonder if Malachor will be destroyed, hold up, let me check." It doesn't work like that. Knowing the last mandaloian would fall to the hands of the Jedi? Could have had that vision years ago. And the futures she saw of the other companions were, in my opinion, due to the bond she shared with the Exile, who in turn shared bonds with all of them. And to prove her inaccuracy, she could not sense Boa Dur's future. She can't just discover whatever she wants. She doesn't know the full future of everything in the galaxy. Add to that the fact that most of G0-T0's forces are droids that she can't sense, and her forsight is pretty much useless here.

 

And finally:

Precisely. And the other method of precognition is for a Jedi to "search their feelings", which I believe just gives them insights into the immediate future or that of those close to them, such as "danger" or "pain", etc. Atton Rand seemed to have particularly acute premonitions of danger, which was probably due to his already hair-trigger instincts for ambushes, and his Force Sensitivity.

So while Traya may be alerted to danger right before it strikes, she will probably still be on Malachor V. The droids will have a good chance of achieving strategic, if not tactical, surprise should Traya remain on the defensive.

Also, what if Traya goes on full offensive? What is she leads the charge on the Telos factory. Strangely enough this makes her harder to kill because in the heat of battle she is aware and expecting attack, and stealth attacks become much harder to pull off.

This is a totally out-of-character argument. Traya is not a warrior. She is a manipulator, working form the shadows. Saying that she would walk up to the HK Factory with lightsabers draw is like saying G0-T0 would decloak his ship. Exposing herself like that isn't her style. Secrecy is her greatest tool, she's not going to reveal herself like that.

I think we can agree that each participant in the Kaggath will take the offensive. Their assassins will search for each other, and they will both go into hiding in one way or another.

Agreed.

G0-T0 will activate the MSG, destroying Malachor V. However, Traya will have fled to a more secure location.

That's a possibility, it is unlikely G0-T0 would destroy Malachor unless he felt he had to though, but he would if he felt it necessary.

Traya's assassins will eventually infiltrate and destroy the HK Factory on Telos, since the more security there is, the easier it will be to find, but that security can at best only delay the inevitable.

Now that is unlikely, the Factory's defenses are geared specifically to take down Jedi and Sith. Kreia doesn't exactly have someone like HK-47 to infiltrate the place. Any biological entering the place would trigger an alarm, only HK-units can get around much of the defensive systems.

Unless a pitched battle takes place at the HK Factory, and both sides commit more forces...

It would be a short battle, and the place survived orbital bombardments, it's unlikely Traya's forces would get anywhere in an attempt to invade the droid factory. She doesn't use droids, much less having HK-47 available to destroy the place.

This is one point at which a strategic decision needs to be made. How much will each side be willing to commit to this fight? We could see all of their forces come together in a bid to wipe out the other's power base in one fell swoop.

A battle over that factory favors G0-T0's forces, considering it is a deathtrap for Force Users, the reason HK-47 managed to wreck havoc throughout that factory was primarily due to the fact he could just walk right past most of the defensive systems which were not designed to take out a droid, and the fact he was also an HK unit.

Agreed.

 

A battle over that factory favors G0-T0's forces, considering it is a deathtrap for Force Users, the reason HK-47 managed to wreck havoc throughout that factory was primarily due to the fact he could just walk right past most of the defensive systems which were not designed to take out a droid, and the fact he was also an HK unit.

I guess that depends on whether the Sith Assassins can infiltrate the facility and neutralize any of the defenses. If they can use Force Stealth or Cloak, it's a possibility.

And correct that G0-T0 will probably hold off on destroying Malachor V unless it seems like a sure way to kill Traya.

I guess that depends on whether the Sith Assassins can infiltrate the facility and neutralize any of the defenses. If they can use Force Stealth or Cloak, it's a possibility.

 

And correct that G0-T0 will probably hold off on destroying Malachor V unless it seems like a sure way to kill Traya.

I'm not sure how well they can neutralize pressure sensitive floor plating that release poison gas... Unless they can float instead of walking, I'm not sure the stealth would make a bit of difference.

Additionally many of the droid defenses had flame throwers, which aren't really blockable with lightsabers.

I'm not sure how well they can neutralize pressure sensitive floor plating that release poison gas... Unless they can float instead of walking, I'm not sure the stealth would make a bit of difference.

 

Additionally many of the droid defenses had flame throwers, which aren't really blockable with lightsabers.

Correct on both accounts. Infiltrating the factory isn't an option unless Traya gets her hands on an HK droid.

Personally, I don't think Traya can outwit G0-T0. He is a planning droid after all, they are designed to plan for every contingency.

On the topic of Farsight. If Warren is correct, then how did Exar Kun lose? Seems Traya's strategy revolved around her Farsight in that battle.

Correct on both accounts. Infiltrating the factory isn't an option unless Traya gets her hands on an HK droid.

 

Personally, I don't think Traya can outwit G0-T0. He is a planning droid after all, they are designed to plan for every contingency.

 

On the topic of Farsight. If Warren is correct, then how did Exar Kun lose? Seems Traya's strategy revolved around her Farsight in that battle.

Well, the articles on Farsight seem to heavily imply that Warren is correct. It would appear that Traya's abilities were not correctly interpreted.

Also, the poison gas can be mitigated with Breath Control. As for the flamethrowers, there are always thermal shields (Peragus, anyone?) which could be acquired. This would make sense for the Sith Assassins, since grenades and flamethrowers are the greatest dangers they would face from droid opponents.

Well, the articles on Farsight seem to heavily imply that Warren is correct. It would appear that Traya's abilities were not correctly interpreted.

 

Also, the poison gas can be mitigated with Breath Control. As for the flamethrowers, there are always thermal shields (Peragus, anyone?) which could be acquired. This would make sense for the Sith Assassins, since grenades and flamethrowers are the greatest dangers they would face from droid opponents.

Well Breath Control is a light side power, I don't see the sith doing such. Gas Masks could do just as well though.

then how did Exar Kun lose?

Seriously, how the hell you guys came to the conclusion that Exar Kun and co. would fail on Malachor V where the Jedi Exile, whilst physically ill and alone prevailed, I have no idea.

Seriously, how the hell you guys came to the conclusion that Exar Kun and co. would fail on Malachor V where the Jedi Exile, whilst physically ill and alone prevailed, I have no idea.

It wasn't me. I said Exar Kun could handle Traya pretty easily. I guess the outcome was that Traya would use her Farsight to outmaneuver Kun.

It wasn't me. I said Exar Kun could handle Traya pretty easily. I guess the outcome was that Traya would use her Farsight to outmaneuver Kun.

 

So the argument was.... she may or may not see him coming and may or may not get the right vision to be able to defeat Kun with the zero strengths she has against him?

So the argument was.... she may or may not see him coming and may or may not get the right vision to be able to defeat Kun with the zero strengths she has against him?

Um... yeah. That's pretty much what it was. I think we put too much stock in her ability to see the future, as well as the accuracy of these visions.

Unfortunate that I did not attempt to counter that point. Woe is me.

Um... yeah. That's pretty much what it was. I think we put too much stock in her ability to see the future, as well as the accuracy of these visions.

What the hell has happened to fact-based arguments?

Did Darth Sidious, who had the best vision based abilities known see his own death and the fall of his Empire at the hands of Anakin and Luke? nope, didn't even get a hint of being killed.

What the hell has happened to fact-based arguments?

 

Did Darth Sidious, who had the best vision based abilities known see his own death and the fall of his Empire at the hands of Anakin and Luke? nope, didn't even get a hint of being killed.

I know what you mean. The outcome of that battle was unforeseen by most of us. If anything, I would have expected Xizor to win (the apparent unlimited resources and all that), but we have to roll with it I guess.

I am hoping Exar Kun will return in future Kaggaths.

But on the topic of Farsight:

"Yoda taught me that there are limits to prophecy- but he also urged me not to ignore it."- Luke Skywalker, the Jedi Path

"Always in motion is the future."- the classic Yoda quote

I probably should have pulled this out for the previous battle, but I guess it didn't occur to me. Or maybe I was too confident.

I'm not sure how well they can neutralize pressure sensitive floor plating that release poison gas... Unless they can float instead of walking, I'm not sure the stealth would make a bit of difference.

 

Additionally many of the droid defenses had flame throwers, which aren't really blockable with lightsabers.

And Warren, you make a good point. But Traya isn't completely stupid, if her Sith forces can't pull off the attack, then she will do it herself as the destruction of the Telos factory is vital to her success. Not to say she will lead a full on charge, given her extensive abilities in stealth and the like, she may decide to infiltrate the factory and destroy it from the inside much like HK-47 did, minus the fighting.

And concerning the previous debate (key word there being previous - lets refrain from bringing up old debates), Exar Kun for one, is not a droid. So the argument that Traya's foresight would be useless in that case is a null point.

Secondly, Traya had abilities in foresight like no other except Sidious, she may have surpassed him we cannot be 100% sure. Warren says 'Traya cannot simply say "Hmm, I wonder if Malachor will be destroyed, hold up, let me check." It doesn't work like that.' - well actually, it does. Consult

Thirdly, Kun, having a strong dark side presence, would likely have been felt by Traya through Force sense if not foresight. And if through both she would have both knowledge of his approach and knowledge of his power.

Fourthly, in the unlikely event that she did not sense Kun's approach, she could have easily fled as he dropped out of hyperspace and possibly even fled during the battle. In both cases she would simply set another trap for him. But like I said, that debate is over. So unless your going to agree with me, don't bother replying.

Concerning foresight in this debate, Warren makes a very good point. In terms of droids her foreseeing capabilities seemed to be useless. But that only excludes the likes of assassination, not the destruction of Malachor V which she could very well predict. Nonetheless, its a very good point.

Secondly, Traya had abilities in foresight like no other except Sidious, she may have surpassed him we cannot be 100% sure. Warren says 'Traya cannot simply say "Hmm, I wonder if Malachor will be destroyed, hold up, let me check." It doesn't work like that.' - well actually, it does. Consult

video - specfically at 0.35 onwards. The Exile basically asks to see the future and Traya says "OK, let me just check". And does so, predicting the future of all of Traya's companions save three, as well as the future of the planets the Exile visited and the fate of the Mandalorians. I think its logical to say she could predict the impending approach of Exar Kun. Also remember that the dark energies of Malachor V greatly improved her abilities in the the senses dept.

*head-desk* I think you've completely and utterly misunderstood that scene, she was dying and becoming one with the force, this combined with the Trayus Core allowed her to see small events.

She can't see everything that ever happened or could happen, read the KotOR campaign guide, it explains clearly that she rarely bothered using the force or it's visions to guide her actions anyway, it was tantamount to being a tool in her opinion.

Also, Traya is the not the only combatant that could sense strong presences, Kun used that type of perception frequently.

I managed, just walk around then and deactivate them at that handy terminal.

You didn't run the HK-Factory though, you did the military factory above the HK factory...

And Warren, you make a good point. But Traya isn't completely stupid, if her Sith forces can't pull off the attack, then she will do it herself as the destruction of the Telos factory is vital to her success. Not to say she will lead a full on charge, given her extensive abilities in stealth and the like, she may decide to infiltrate the factory and destroy it from the inside much like HK-47 did, minus the fighting.

Uh haven't seen the Droid Factory have you? Also I don't think Traya can realistically slice a computer terminal when she can't see the computer screen (regardless of the Game Mechanics in KotOR II)..

Secondly, Traya had abilities in foresight like no other except Sidious, she may have surpassed him we cannot be 100% sure. Warren says 'Traya cannot simply say "Hmm, I wonder if Malachor will be destroyed, hold up, let me check." It doesn't work like that.' - well actually, it does. Consult

video - specfically at 0.35 onwards. The Exile basically asks to see the future and Traya says "OK, let me just check". And does so, predicting the future of all of Traya's companions save three, as well as the future of the planets the Exile visited and the fate of the Mandalorians. I think its logical to say she could predict the impending approach of Exar Kun. Also remember that the dark energies of Malachor V greatly improved her abilities in the the senses dept.

I seem to have noticed that the ability to perceive the future has its limits, cause Palpatine didn't foresee being thrown to his doom by Darth Vader.

Concerning foresight in this debate, Warren makes a very good point. In terms of droids her foreseeing capabilities seemed to be useless. But that only excludes the likes of assassination, not the destruction of Malachor V which she could very well predict. Nonetheless, its a very good point.

That's why I don't see this decided at Malachor V, unless Traya is a complete idiot, she wouldn't get caught by the Mass Shadow Generator.

You didn't run the HK-Factory though, you did the military factory above the HK factory...

Uh haven't seen the Droid Factory have you? Also I don't think Traya can realistically slice a computer terminal when she can't see the computer screen (regardless of the Game Mechanics in KotOR II)..

There also seems to be this misinformed opinion that Traya is blind. She is not blind, she sees through Force Sight which allows you to see far more than normal sight e.g. seeing in the dark, seeing through walls, seeing peoples intentions/emotions. You may recall this:

"When one relies on sight to perceive the world, it is like trying to stare at the galaxy through a crack in the door."

~ Kreia.

Also Traya was not blinded, or born blind or anything like that. Her eyes atrophied due to disuse, she chose Force sight over normal sight. Heck, Traya could probably see right through that terminal and slice it using shatterpoint.

Nope I haven't. But why would their be gas in the droid factory? I mean it wouldn't have any effect on HK, seeing as he is a droid... Oh and can you give me a quick run down on the HK factories defenses?

 

There also seems to be this misinformed opinion that Traya is blind. She is not blind, she sees through Force Sight which allows you to see far more than normal sight e.g. seeing in the dark, seeing through walls, seeing peoples intentions/emotions. You may recall this:

 

"When one relies on sight to perceive the world, it is like trying to stare at the galaxy through a crack in the door."

~ Kreia.

 

Also Traya was not blinded, or born blind or anything like that. Her eyes atrophied due to disuse, she chose Force sight over normal sight. Heck, Traya could probably see right through that terminal and slice it using shatterpoint.

Shatterpoint has nothing to do with computer hacking...

Shatterpoint has nothing to do with computer hacking...

 

 

 

Basically the Droid Factory is 2 levels the first consists of turrets, forcefields, military droids, etc. You can start up the production of HK 51's on this level if I remember correctly).

 

Second level you have turrets, pressure sensitive floor plates, and a lot of HK 50 units. The key tidbit to note is that HK 47 supposedly didn't trigger a lot of the defenses (or they were ineffective) because HK 47 was a droid, not a Jedi or any other organic for that matter)

Interesting about the HK factory, I remember skipping through a certain video and that the HKs recalled that many of the defenses would be nullified by HK-47. So I assume for a Force user it would be a lot harder to do. And then she has to hack the terminal, in that case explosives will be the best way to go, which means a big invasion force. And judging by its defenses this could swing either way...

So how about it, the Battle of the HK Manufacturing Plant! Discuss!

Don't forget Traya's powerbase, does include War Droids so it isn't like she just has organic troops.

Those droids aren't exactly much of a threat to an HK 50 unit.