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BiS Relics for Healers PvP/PvE


Darth_Dreselus

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Updated for patch 2.9.d

 

Simple question with probably a somewhat complicated answer. What relics to take.

All conclusions are based on latest data and analyses and are subject to change

 

Player versus Environment:

 

Slot 1 :

Focused Retribution (MS Proc)

 

Slot 2:

Proc/Clicky based on playstyle/fight

 

Proc:

Serendipitous Assault (Power Proc)

 

Clicky:

Boundless Ages (Power Click) - This is mathematically a worse choice but can still be used (more information to follow in the playstyle section)

 

Player versus Player:

 

Slot 1:

Focused Retribution (MS Proc)

 

Slot 2:

Serendipitous Assault (Power Proc)

 

Gearing:

 

I strongly suggest to get your valour to 40 (doable while levelling) and obtaining the Obroan/Brutaliser proccing relics (Power, MS).

If you are really adverse to getting PvP relics, you can also obtain free Arkanian relics by completing the Oricon story quest but these are inferior to UW.

 

Main Stat proc are not available at the Underworld or Kell Dragon levels. Again your best bet is Brutaliser relic but you may also gain Arkanian versions via the Oricon quest.

 

For Clicky, Boundless ages is available at every level of PvE (including crafted Rakata and Campaign/Dread Guard) and mostly you want the highest upgrade, except if you have gotten your DG relic before 2.0, in which case you want to skip Arkanian.

 

Playstyle:

 

First a few general things. There are no go-to numbers for healers. HPS, EHPS or HPCT are only marginally useful in determining what is BiS and almost useless in comparing the classes. The only thing that comes close is the damage dealt to the raid as a whole that requires healing (and in fact you can deduct PlayerHealth-1 from that as even if everybody ends up at 1 HP, the content has been successfully healed). Then divide it by 2/3/4 to get HPSPH (Heals per second per healer).

 

Another issue about HPS is that you will never have both healers heal exactly the same way and even if you split the group, your tank and DPS will not take the same amount of damage. Furthermore, as your group learns the fight they will be able to limit damage and thus lowering healing needed.

 

You do not necessarily want to have healers with very high HPS sustained. Fights vary greatly and often require different amounts of healing at different times. You want healers that work with these changes and know when to burst and when to tend to their resource, idle or even do some damage. Unlike DPS where you are given a damage (HP of boss) and time (enrage) and your team simply has to do the required DPS (this includes tank damage and obviously adds will add to the damage needed), healing is not about doing certain HPS. It is about making sure people do not die.

 

So what this thread set out to do is finding which relic make that job easier. As a result this led to the following debate.

 

Proc, Stat or Click?

 

Perhaps now with the discontinued Boundless Ages relic, this debate is somewhat irrelevant but the principle stands. Originally healers had only click relics to use, then passive stat boosts were added in the for of PvP relics which were great for healers as they increased their power across the board. Finally came the procs, originally in the form of a HoT (which was terrible) and finally in terms of Power and MS increase.

 

The issue some healers had was the unpredictability of procs. They wanted to have control over their healing and thus opted for the click instead. Others preferred the zero fuss of procs and stat boosts, using Adrenals and cooldowns when needed. Neither approach is wrong. This is why, even now, I cannot say that choosing to use a BA is wrong. I can tell you that it will give you less of an increase over the whole fight but if that is not an issue, you are aware of it and willing to live with it go ahead.

 

Why do I suggest the procs?

 

As pointed out healing is not about having the highest HPS. Having said that, the higher you can pump it up the higher is your 'healing potential' which will make healing easier overall and lead to less 'emergencies' where a click relic might have been a better choice. Even if you relics do not proc during the 'emergency' they are likely to proc soon after, making your recovery easier.

 

The proc relics atm do just that, give you the highest 'healing potential'.

 

In Closing

 

I CANNOT tell you that you are healing incorrectly if your raid is surviving (there is of course the issue of how 'tight' the survival is). If you are using completely different relics and having success, that's great! However, I set out to answer what relics are Best in Slot. Having established what I meant by 'Best' I CAN tell you that your choice is only wrong in terms of not giving you the highest 'healing potential'.

 

 

List of contributors:

Orderken - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqOiwCZXjMsWdC03cmFOdnQ2YWdtWHlKTjFJbHk3aFE&usp=sharing#gid=0l

Oofalong

Johnbgood

 

For past discussion of this topic you can check : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6813644 but please post into this thread which will be updated.

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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1. FR outperforms SA, albeit very slightly. I recommend FR, not SA, as the first choice.

 

 

2. I tested relics today.

 

(a) DF FR has a 20-second CD for procs from healing, and a separate 20-second CD for procs from damage dealt (including damage dealt solely by DoTs). If you were to start a stopwatch when it procs, over the next 20 seconds, the uptime of its buff will range from 6 to 12 seconds. When the procs overlap, giving, for example, an uptime of 9 seconds, your main stat will be exactly 740 higher throughout. That is, overlapping procs don't stack.

 

(b) KD SA is similar. It has separate CDs for procs from healing or from damage dealt (including damage dealt solely by DoTs), and overlapping procs don't stack.

 

© DF, Obroan, or Conqueror SA has a unified 20-second CD for procs from healing or damage dealt (including damage dealt solely by DoTs). If you were to start a stopwatch when it procs, the uptime of its buff will be exactly 6 seconds, and it can't proc again until the 20th second.

 

I don't have a Obroan or Conqueror FR relic to test.

 

 

3. If you maintain a DoT for a majority of a fight, KD SA > DF SA. My model assumes that relics can proc at most once every 20 seconds, so a DF FR or KD SA relic can perform better than my model indicates. I'm not in the habit of maintaining a DoT, but for healers who do, KD SA > DF SA.

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Darth_Dreselus and Orderken I just want to thank you both for the great work you are doing regarding BiS healing relics. It's really nice to have a up to date and detailed overview over what relics to choose for healing.

 

I have linked this post from my mercenary healing guide, so more people will see it ;)

 

Keep up the good work :D

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...

Double proccing (i.e. procs from both heals and damage inside the intended 20s window)

 

Focused Retribution - yes for Dread Forged

Serendipitous Assault - yes for Kell Dragon, no for other.

 

the underworld version of serendipitous assault does double proc too.

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Nice work. Any news on Matrix Cube for PVP?

 

 

p.s: I tried it in PVP it gets bolstered to full expertise and 125 willpower (the Inquistor one obviously)

 

Since the FR+SA combo I don't think it's worth it.

 

125 WP is below the bonuses you expect to get from the two procs. Another way of looking at it is that if you get 125 WP that's even lower than the 120 pwr you would get from EWH.

 

If somebody wants to calculate it in any better way go ahead but my gut feeling tells me that it is worse than the two Obroan relics. Going by this the FA relic has a 77% estimated uptime and even if it only procs once every 21s that is still (6/21)*625=179 WP. The SA will give you the same kind of Power and the Crit increase is likely negligible.

 

In fact I am going to remove it from the OP.

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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So I've got Obroan SA and Ark BA atm on my op healer. Hes my 4th alt so no huge rush but thinking of picking up the Obroan FR which from what I'm reading seems the way to go, as I said he's an alt for my guild raids I normally dps or tank so til be awhile before I get DF relics. Is that right? Figure you guys know more about healing than me, and it shows from this thread already
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So I've got Obroan SA and Ark BA atm on my op healer. Hes my 4th alt so no huge rush but thinking of picking up the Obroan FR which from what I'm reading seems the way to go, as I said he's an alt for my guild raids I normally dps or tank so til be awhile before I get DF relics. Is that right? Figure you guys know more about healing than me, and it shows from this thread already

 

Yes, in this case, an Obroan FR relic would be the ideal replacement for your Arkanian BA relic. In fact, it's slightly better than an Obroan SA relic.

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What do you guys think of Oofalong's relic spreadsheet?

 

DF SA & DF FR parsed ~3350 versus

KD SA & DF FR parsed ~3500

 

Though it's not meant for healers, the ranking of relics is the same for healers who maintain a DOT.

 

It's accurate for ranking relics for DPS classes, which is what matters most. That said --

 

1. The spreadsheet's formula are rough approximations.

 

2. The DPS increase from a "double" proccing relic will have a different average and variance based on the frequency of self-healing for each particular class and specialization.

 

2. If you copied the above quoted DPS from the spreadsheet, there are errors. For a DPS in BIS 78s, the claim that the average increase in DPS from substituting KD SA for DF SA is 4.48% is incredible. In contrast, for a Sorcerer|Sage healer in BIS 78s, the maximum increase in healing from substituting KD SA for DF SA has an upper bound of 1.29%, which is three-and-a-half times less.

Edited by Orderken
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Though it's not meant for healers, the ranking of relics is the same for healers who maintain a DOT.

 

It's accurate for ranking relics for DPS classes, which is what matters most. That said --

 

1. The spreadsheet's formula are rough approximations.

 

2. The DPS increase from a "double" proccing relic will have a different average and variance based on the frequency of self-healing for each particular class and specialization.

 

2. If you copied the above quoted DPS from the spreadsheet, there are errors. For a DPS in BIS 78s, the claim that the average increase in DPS from substituting KD SA for DF SA is 4.48% is incredible. In contrast, for a Sorcerer|Sage healer in BIS 78s, the maximum increase in healing from substituting KD SA for DF SA has an upper bound of 1.29%, which is three-and-a-half times less.

 

Oh you're right. nice catch. The healrs would need to put a DoT for the "combine" effect to take place.

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Oh you're right. nice catch. The healrs would need to put a DoT for the "combine" effect to take place.

 

Dreselus keeps the OP up-to-date. It includes an excellent write-up on how a healer of any class should choose relics, considering, among other factors, the feasibility of maintaining a DOT.

 

 

Also, today I did two 30-minute parses with my Annihilation Marauder on my ship's Operations Training Dummy. This test confirms my theorycrafting: expecting a DPS increase of 4.48% from using a KD SA instead of a DF SA is absurd.

 

Test conditions were designed to investigate an upper bound for the percentage increase in DPS from a "double" proccing SA: the Dummy had infinite health and no armor debuff; I never used Frenzy, Bloodthirst, or Adrenals; and I maximized the uptime of self-healing.

 

For the first parse, I had a DF FR and an empty relic slot. For the second parse, I had a DF FR and an unaugmented UW SA. The second parse was 2.09% higher.

Edited by Orderken
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  • 2 weeks later...
Did they change something? oO

 

Nope, by updated I pretty much just meant checked and as a result found a mistake.

 

Also its better than just bumping, there was already a thread asking about relics (because scrolling down 5 threads is hard)

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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Though it's not meant for healers, the ranking of relics is the same for healers who maintain a DOT.

 

It's accurate for ranking relics for DPS classes, which is what matters most. That said --

 

1. The spreadsheet's formula are rough approximations.

 

Why do you call them rough approximations? I am pretty confident in the math, and the inputs - Power-to-DPS, Crit-to-DPS, Heals/Sec and Hits/Sec - are based on Annihilation Marauder.

 

2. The DPS increase from a "double" proccing relic will have a different average and variance based on the frequency of self-healing for each particular class and specialization.

 

To expand upon this, the frequency affects the uptime of the relic. Again, the numbers are specific to Annihilation Marauders, but as you can see 0.75 heals or hits per second would result in ~25% uptime, while 2.2 heals or hits per second results in ~28% - a difference of only 3%. Even the fewest hits or heals per second - ie one every other GCD - should still result in 20%+ uptime.

 

2. If you copied the above quoted DPS from the spreadsheet, there are errors. For a DPS in BIS 78s, the claim that the average increase in DPS from substituting KD SA for DF SA is 4.48% is incredible. In contrast, for a Sorcerer|Sage healer in BIS 78s, the maximum increase in healing from substituting KD SA for DF SA has an upper bound of 1.29%, which is three-and-a-half times less.

 

I don't think this comment relates to my spreadsheet at all. Still, an observed 4.5% difference in DPS is not due to relics it is due to varying crit rates/rotation.

 

@ Darth_Dreselus - While Merc/Commandos are unable to maintain a DoT. There basic attack hits many many times - 10 for a Merc and 7 for a Mando. Thus, by simply using their basic attack on the boss once every 20s that can significantly increase the uptime on a UW/KD SA relic as well as any FR relic.

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@ Darth_Dreselus - While Merc/Commandos are unable to maintain a DoT. There basic attack hits many many times - 10 for a Merc and 7 for a Mando. Thus, by simply using their basic attack on the boss once every 20s that can significantly increase the uptime on a UW/KD SA relic as well as any FR relic.

 

Are you sure (and more importantly do you have data to show) each tick has its own separate chance to proc the relic and it is not the attack as a whole? As a result it would be even better than Sage/Sorc 6 hits per GCD used on Weaken Mind/Affliction or Sco/Op 5 Hits per GCD used on Vital Shot/Corrosive Dart assuming healing builds without any boosts to the DoTs, which a Sco/Op could take. In fact by taking Open Wound/Lethal Injectors the duration and ticks of the DoT equal that of a Sage/Sorc and with 2.6 Open Wound/Lethal Injectors will surpass Sage/Sorc. Mortal Wound/Corrosive Microbes also affects this but it is lot less calculable and TBH there are only 2 spare points in the classic Sco/Op healing build.

 

Scoundrels' Flurry of Bolts only logs 2 hits. Not sure about Rifle Shots, my Sniper gets 2 hits logged but not sure if this applies to Operatives as well. If yes Vital Shot/Corrosive Dart is by far the better choice.

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First off I cringed when I discovered I used the wrong form of 'their' in my previous post. Based on the math and analysis I have done for Marauders, each hits or line item in the combat log has a chance to trigger the relic. I will parse on my Merc with just Rapid Shots to confirm and post the link here.
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Why do you call them rough approximations?

 

For this phenomena, analysis of combat logs or simulations will provide more reliable results than formula.

 

I've referred to using formula as approximating in this case, because

  1. The formula for the uptime of procs from hits, and the formula for the uptime of procs from heals, are averages (of hits or heals per second) of averages (treating a relic's CD as divisible without remainder by hit or heals per second) of averages (of the probability distribution for time-to-proc, which has a long tail).
  2. The formula for combined uptimes for "double" proccing relics is yet another average (of the probability distribution for the amounts of overlap between procs from damage and procs from heals, which distribution has a substantial variance).

 

These formula are a clean summary of these several Procrustean steps. Your analysis of combat logs doesn't show that you've used the "correct" formula, but rather that using formula in this first place hasn't cast doubt on your results.

 

I like, use, and recommend to others your work on relics "as is". I have no reason to doubt its ranking of relics, nor do I believe that you should note in it any of what I've discussed here. As a mathematician I prefer formulaic approaches to quantitative questions, and I would use formula similar to yours if I were to choose this approach. But I wouldn't model relics with formula; I'd analyze data from combat logs or simulations, instead.

Edited by Orderken
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