I sympathize (empathize?) with you, OP. This is bad. You should always have the option to break up with any NPC -- remove the appropriate affection points as well if necessary, but the option should be there. That shouldn't be too hard to implement I think.

Your term "Catboy" made me laugh, and now I'll forever think of him as such - thanks -- and really, it's like the NPC is harassing you, isn't it? You should be able to report him to Garza or something.

I guess these situations are one of the pitfalls for the dialogue-based story, and I suppose the voiceover work makes it even more difficult to correct. Hopefully over time the dialogue choices (& their text descriptions) will become more refined over time.

 

..and for this particular Companion - I'd like to see an additional Quest option that sends him to a Veteranarian for the required procedures !

Awwww, poor kitty!

It sounds like there are two separate issues at work here. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting!

 

1) Your character entered the romance "path" with Jorgan, but you didn't intend for that to happen. This should not have been possible without picking Player options marked with [Flirt], specifically:

 

 

In a conversation that becomes available after the first companion mission with Jorgan (where you go to Nar Shaddaa looking for the Deadeyes) he will mention some weapons malfunctions and ask to inspect all of the team's weaponry, including the Player's. The [Flirt] options here are the ones that initiate the romance; not the necklace conversation later.

 

If you did not pick any of those options, and still ended up in a romance with Jorgan, then it's a bug.

 

2) Once your character was on the romance path, it was not possible to "break up" with Jorgan. I believe this is currently working as intended. That said, we've definitely seen all the feedback on the matter and are discussing possible changes to the system for the future, but I don't think we're ready to talk about any of those potential changes in detail as yet. As mentioned, please don't hesitate to post your own feelings on the matter in the suggestion box to add to the feedback!

 

If #1 occurred, please resubmit the issue and only mention that aspect of it, in order to clarify what needs to be investigated. And, again, I'm very sorry for all the trouble this has caused for you.

Charles, I just want to say that I really appreciate your posting here and contributing to this thread. I think it illustrates the perseverance that you all have for making this game better, and it's great to see.

Obviously companion relationships are a big thing, and I've seen a few threads like this where people feel forced into some kind of relationship due to some previous choice. While I do understand the programmer decision-tree reasoning that might lead one to assume that "Since they flirted at Opportunity A, this means that this should forever be the case", this is not at all how the game should operate, as real relationships don't operate this way either.

Things may happen that lead a change in heart, for example. A close mission where a companion is injured and nearly dies after flirting behavior may lead a CO to decide that getting close to the subordinate was a bad idea. On the other end, an initial rejection of flirting options might be outweighed over time by a greater affection for the character, and a desire to see more flirting behavior present itself.

I understand this throws your development decision trees into complete chaos, but you have spent so much time developing these companions and their own personalities, the romance arcs and so forth that I think it would be a shame not to continue expanding them and enhancing their decision points. And the possible necessities of a clean and easy decision tree can obviously lead to some rather unfortunate side effects if something happens, like the OP's issue with being forced into a situation they are not at all interested in, regardless of what may have happened so many decision points ago.

Going forward, there should always be options to stop the behavior that is happening. It would be nice to have some possible trigger points to re-ignite those paths down the road, but the definite focus I think should be more on the side of allowing players an "out" to avoid further action on a particular romance arc.

As a side note, and perhaps something you and your colleagues haven't considered, there are young children playing this game, and reading through these story arcs. Not all of them have parents that feel comfortable discussing these issues with them and teaching them how to conduct romantic interactions, sometimes because they just never thought about it in depth, or sometimes because they feel it would be some sort of a "license" to their kids to engage in that behavior, etc.

In these instances, your decisions, and your game, may have a marked influence on these youngsters in terms of how they see relationships, and in what ways they might try to mimic what they see in the game. I know of at least one 12 year old I've bumped into in the game and I'm sure there are many more.

Little girls playing the game who find themselves trapped in a romance arc and can't escape from it may internalize that to some degree, and chalk it up as something that is expected of females in general. Little boys playing the game who find themselves constantly being urged to flirt with every female they see might also internalize that and imagine that might be proper behavior, even in professional situations like a military squad. And these two can easily be reversed, with boys playing characters that feel trapped in situations, or girls being exposed to constant flirting prompts.

I'm not saying you're responsible for parenting these kids, and I'd hate to see all of this scrubbed to take romances out completely, but your decisions as developers should at least entail some thoughtfulness as to all of your customers and their demographics, and really shouldn't short-change any of them.

If you need to hire some relationship consultants to come in and do some workshops with the relationship arc story writers, do so! If you need to pay some relationship psychologists to come in and examine the possible relationship decisions to make improvements, do it! It can only result in a better, more well rounded game in the long run, and one that many of your players would appreciate... some of them knowingly... and some of them later one when they look back from a point in their future.

But again, kudos for your sharp eye in watching these forums and your eagerness to dive in and figure out what the problem was and try to fix the situation going forward. It's folks like you that will mean the success of this game in the long term.

Now then, when do I get to start flirting with General Garza?

Folks, I have a petition thread for "allowing breakups" here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4213384

My problems are with Corso and Quinn, but if Jorgan is on the bandwagon too...well. This needs to stop.

As a side note, and perhaps something you and your colleagues haven't considered, there are young children playing this game, and reading through these story arcs. Not all of them have parents that feel comfortable discussing these issues with them and teaching them how to conduct romantic interactions, sometimes because they just never thought about it in depth, or sometimes because they feel it would be some sort of a "license" to their kids to engage in that behavior, etc.

Not to take this off-topic, but the game is rated "T" for a reason. My son doesn't play because he's not a teenager yet. For parents that decide to allow "young children" to play a rated "T" game, that's not the game developers fault, and must accept the consequences of their own decision.

Back on topic: I'd love to be able to freely flirt with my companions without it leading to marriage, though. My smuggler is not the "settle down" type...

*edit* spelling

I was actually hoping that I could create a commando and Sgr catboy soon. I can't believe your denying his charm. He is very hansom.

*edit* spelling

I was actually hoping that I could create a commando and Sgr catboy soon. I can't believe your denying his charm. He is very hansom.

You live with 23 cats, don't you?

You live with 23 cats, don't you?

I have 2 cats.

I flirted with Jaesa 0 times, but apparently there's an unavoidable confrontation between her and Vette for my affections anyway. Whee. Seems kind of like Jorgan, I guess (for the record, I totally wuv Jorgan).

It isn't really just a SWTOR problem. BioWare in general seems to have trouble moderating. In fact, at least the dudes in SWTOR actually hit on your female toons, since in most of the other games it's only female party members that will flirt with the male protagonist if you don't initiate it first. Anyhow, tangent. It seems like your choices are either romance them (if an option), never ever talk to them, or be super mean about avoiding a relationship (honestly, I had one playthrough of Mass Effect where I romanced Liara totally by accident, having only ever talked to her once; I just felt like it would have been mean to throw her out).

I would like the option of letting romance options down without tearing out their heart and stomping on it though, so put my name in that hat. Hey, Corso, I like you and all, but I just don't think...no wait, that's not on the dialogue wheel here. What I meant to say is I HATE YOU I HATE YOUR FAMILY YOU'RE UGLY YOU'RE STUPID YOUR GIFTS ARE WORTHLESS SPIT SLAP GROINKICK.

Why you guilting me into this BioWare. =(

Charles, I just want to say that I really appreciate your posting here and contributing to this thread. I think it illustrates the perseverance that you all have for making this game better, and it's great to see.

 

Obviously companion relationships are a big thing, and I've seen a few threads like this where people feel forced into some kind of relationship due to some previous choice. While I do understand the programmer decision-tree reasoning that might lead one to assume that "Since they flirted at Opportunity A, this means that this should forever be the case", this is not at all how the game should operate, as real relationships don't operate this way either.

 

Things may happen that lead a change in heart, for example. A close mission where a companion is injured and nearly dies after flirting behavior may lead a CO to decide that getting close to the subordinate was a bad idea. On the other end, an initial rejection of flirting options might be outweighed over time by a greater affection for the character, and a desire to see more flirting behavior present itself.

 

I understand this throws your development decision trees into complete chaos, but you have spent so much time developing these companions and their own personalities, the romance arcs and so forth that I think it would be a shame not to continue expanding them and enhancing their decision points. And the possible necessities of a clean and easy decision tree can obviously lead to some rather unfortunate side effects if something happens, like the OP's issue with being forced into a situation they are not at all interested in, regardless of what may have happened so many decision points ago.

 

Going forward, there should always be options to stop the behavior that is happening. It would be nice to have some possible trigger points to re-ignite those paths down the road, but the definite focus I think should be more on the side of allowing players an "out" to avoid further action on a particular romance arc.

 

As a side note, and perhaps something you and your colleagues haven't considered, there are young children playing this game, and reading through these story arcs. Not all of them have parents that feel comfortable discussing these issues with them and teaching them how to conduct romantic interactions, sometimes because they just never thought about it in depth, or sometimes because they feel it would be some sort of a "license" to their kids to engage in that behavior, etc.

 

In these instances, your decisions, and your game, may have a marked influence on these youngsters in terms of how they see relationships, and in what ways they might try to mimic what they see in the game. I know of at least one 12 year old I've bumped into in the game and I'm sure there are many more.

 

Little girls playing the game who find themselves trapped in a romance arc and can't escape from it may internalize that to some degree, and chalk it up as something that is expected of females in general. Little boys playing the game who find themselves constantly being urged to flirt with every female they see might also internalize that and imagine that might be proper behavior, even in professional situations like a military squad. And these two can easily be reversed, with boys playing characters that feel trapped in situations, or girls being exposed to constant flirting prompts.

 

I'm not saying you're responsible for parenting these kids, and I'd hate to see all of this scrubbed to take romances out completely, but your decisions as developers should at least entail some thoughtfulness as to all of your customers and their demographics, and really shouldn't short-change any of them.

 

If you need to hire some relationship consultants to come in and do some workshops with the relationship arc story writers, do so! If you need to pay some relationship psychologists to come in and examine the possible relationship decisions to make improvements, do it! It can only result in a better, more well rounded game in the long run, and one that many of your players would appreciate... some of them knowingly... and some of them later one when they look back from a point in their future.

 

But again, kudos for your sharp eye in watching these forums and your eagerness to dive in and figure out what the problem was and try to fix the situation going forward. It's folks like you that will mean the success of this game in the long term.

 

Now then, when do I get to start flirting with General Garza?

I understand the idea of the potential affect this might have on young kids but the game is rated as an T game so its really not meant for 12 year olds. Now i no way am i saying no 12 should be playing this game, i played T games all the time before i was a teen, but the rating says sexual themes, its up to the parents to watch how the kids play the game, and especially the lessons they learn from it, not bioware

It isn't really just a SWTOR problem. BioWare in general seems to have trouble moderating. In fact, at least the dudes in SWTOR actually hit on your female toons, since in most of the other games it's only female party members that will flirt with the male protagonist if you don't initiate it first. Anyhow, tangent. It seems like your choices are either romance them (if an option), never ever talk to them, or be super mean about avoiding a relationship (honestly, I had one playthrough of Mass Effect where I romanced Liara totally by accident, having only ever talked to her once; I just felt like it would have been mean to throw her out).

Liara is a glutton for punishment, if you straight up tell her "Hell no, I'm not interested in you, ever", she still comes after you. (It's been confirmed as a bug, but I'm still suspicious! She is BioWare's poster girl, after all.) At least she actually has a "let her down gently" option (tell her you just want to be friends), unlike Ashley and Kaidan, you have to be snotty to them at some point and shoot them down.

I actually haven't had the "romance problem" in any BioWare game other than SWTOR. There's always been clearly marked dialogue (or icons) to show you're being a flirt, and an option to back out later. (In my first DAO playthrough I told Zevran I didn't care if he fancied me and liked leering at me, but that's just because I knew he grew up in a wh*rehouse and seemed to be part of his character, didn't know it triggered a romance. Luckily I backed out of it later when he demanded I pick between him and Alistair.)

With SWTOR it seems once you've flirted, you're not allowed to change your mind, and if you want max affection (for the presence bonus or crafting bonuses), you have to trudge through the rest of the conversations, be extremely mean, take the affection hit, gift spam to get it back up, later rinse repeat. You'd think the companions would get tired of it and be like "Are you trying to break up with me?!" (only for there to be two "No" options and one "I need to think about it" option, so you still can't get out of it. )

I understand the idea of the potential affect this might have on young kids but the game is rated as an T game so its really not meant for 12 year olds. Now i no way am i saying no 12 should be playing this game, i played T games all the time before i was a teen, but the rating says sexual themes, its up to the parents to watch how the kids play the game, and especially the lessons they learn from it, not bioware

Your point here is completely valid, in that yes it is a "T" rated game, and parents must be responsible for what kind of content goes into their games. But this was a minor point in what I was trying to say.

The ultimate point is that even the adult players deserve some options other than being railroaded into a relationship just because of a single choice that was made way back in the game's progress. Even if a player winds up going through a relationship and gets married or whatever, there should still be options to get out of that. Not providing those options really makes the development curve look bad, and gives the suggestion that the developers haven't experienced a lot of real world relationships, or that too many corners are being cut in the dynamic relationship maps.

2) Once your character was on the romance path, it was not possible to "break up" with Jorgan. I believe this is currently working as intended. That said, we've definitely seen all the feedback on the matter and are discussing possible changes to the system for the future, but I don't think we're ready to talk about any of those potential changes in detail as yet. As mentioned, please don't hesitate to post your own feelings on the matter in the suggestion box to add to the feedback!

Well clearly there needs to be a way to "break up" just like there is in real life and leave the romance path. I strongly support a way to end this, especially if entered into it accidentally.

I must also be added before any same sex romance options are added. Players may be surprised to accidentally enter into such a situation.

I made a male Jedi warrior, (I'm female) because I detest the female's voice. I wasn't interested in the Kira romance (he can marry one of my Imperial girls) I didn't have him flirt at all, but WAY too often, the alternatives are just plain jerky. (I went with that, anyway) It's just weird that any flirt gets you manacled for eternity. With a friend's BH, he had 3 alternatives with Mako - kiss, kiss & don't kiss, which = kiss. Not being able to say no is monstrously creepy. You can seem to turn down the marriage idea, and then get a letter saying you're married.

This *really* needs a fix. And along those lines, I know nitwits in beta killed all their companions, removing our own possible choices, but it is incredibly jarring to have to take a companion (hello, Skadge & Xalek) that your character would *never* accept. I saw the Xalek scene, & deleted my Inquisitor. I don't *like* being forced.

I like Jorgan and I like the Jorgan romance. And I love BioWare games, especially for the romances. That said,

flirting with a man *once*, just acknowledging him as an attractive adult, means you've committed to having sex with him in the future whether you repeatedly say no or not? How clueless do you have to be not to realize the crime that translates to the real world? And that's "working as intended"? I'm so repulsed right now by whoever "intended" that.

(I also had the problem of there being no kind way to turn Corso down. I was on the fence about him until he throws that "oh by the way, I was engaged to someone else and I ran off and left her, and I don't even feel bad" thing at you right before your only choices are to smack him down harshly or let him kiss you. I gave in because I didn't want to be mean, but it was kinda gross and I've hardly played that character since. If only there'd been an extra dialogue option "No (gentle)" or something.)

I like Jorgan and I like the Jorgan romance. And I love BioWare games, especially for the romances. That said,

 

flirting with a man *once*, just acknowledging him as an attractive adult, means you've committed to having sex with him in the future whether you repeatedly say no or not? How clueless do you have to be not to realize the crime that translates to the real world? And that's "working as intended"? I'm so repulsed right now by whoever "intended" that.

 

(I also had the problem of there being no kind way to turn Corso down. I was on the fence about him until he throws that "oh by the way, I was engaged to someone else and I ran off and left her, and I don't even feel bad" thing at you right before your only choices are to smack him down harshly or let him kiss you. I gave in because I didn't want to be mean, but it was kinda gross and I've hardly played that character since. If only there'd been an extra dialogue option "No (gentle)" or something.)

Agreed on all counts.

Though by the time I hit 6k approval, I felt that in retrospect I was no harsher to Corso than he deserved.

I am a female playing a female character and remember very well the conversation linked in the BW rep's spoiler link. It struck me at the time because the response is not just inappropriate from a military fraternization perspective, but completely unwarranted given that Jorgan had not said anything remotely suggestive. It was not just completely out of character for my 'toon to come up with out of nowhere but one would think that Jorgan being so by-the-book (especially given what an ******* he is when you accidentally click on him while trying to loot a corpse) would not fail to shut it down himself given he's never been nothing but a hard-*** up to that point, so it would be hard to miss.

I didn't take the [flirt] option and I never again saw anything like that come up. I don't know if it had anything to do with my flirting with the SIS agent in front of him once, but it was never again an issue at any rate.

I like Jorgan and I like the Jorgan romance. And I love BioWare games, especially for the romances. That said,

 

flirting with a man *once*, just acknowledging him as an attractive adult, means you've committed to having sex with him in the future whether you repeatedly say no or not? How clueless do you have to be not to realize the crime that translates to the real world? And that's "working as intended"? I'm so repulsed right now by whoever "intended" that.

 

(I also had the problem of there being no kind way to turn Corso down. I was on the fence about him until he throws that "oh by the way, I was engaged to someone else and I ran off and left her, and I don't even feel bad" thing at you right before your only choices are to smack him down harshly or let him kiss you. I gave in because I didn't want to be mean, but it was kinda gross and I've hardly played that character since. If only there'd been an extra dialogue option "No (gentle)" or something.)

That's been a problem with this game & other Bioware games. (there is NO nice way to say 'no' to Anders in DA2) Saying 'no' doesn't mean you're a horrible person or mean - and there should be a nice way of edging out of it. My daughter played a male agent, & he has 2 good ways of evading both Kaliyo & the monstrously annoying Temple - why don't the rest of us get this?