Ummmm. Okay... i think i presented a great deal of feedback, clearly stating my opinions of what is wrong with this game.

Keypoint: Your opinion.

You are entitled to said opinion, but you are also entitled to have people disagree with you as well. That is the nature of posting one's opinion on a public discussion forum. If you want complete control over the discussion (as in, make it only move your way.. then you need to create a blog, not open threads on a discussion forum.

Note: any single persons opinion, even with 3 or 4 other people agreeing with them, in a gaming forum =/= an objective and actionable assessment of the game. I know for some people that concept sucks...but welcome to the real world. Anything outside of your own span of control is, interestingly enough, not controllable by you. You can choose to play or not play. That is your span of control. You can provide your opinion and feedback about the game, but you cannot effect change by doing so... unless many many other players agree with you.. and even then... not going to happen if they don't want to do it (evidence: class story arc continuation).

I

This game is only going to get worse and having seen ESO first hand, these are how games should be developed.

ESO might be the worst game I've ever played. I truly uninstalled after a little over 2 hours.

Keypoint: Your opinion.

 

You are entitled to said opinion, but you are also entitled to have people disagree with you as well. That is the nature of posting one's opinion on a public discussion forum. If you want complete control over the discussion (as in, make it only move your way.. then you need to create a blog, not open threads on a discussion forum.

 

Note: any single persons opinion, even with 3 or 4 other people agreeing with them, in a gaming forum =/= an objective and actionable assessment of the game. I know for some people that concept sucks...but welcome to the real world. Anything outside of your own span of control is, interestingly enough, not controllable by you. You can choose to play or not play. That is your span of control. You can provide your opinion and feedback about the game, but you cannot effect change by doing so... unless many many other players agree with you.. and even then... not going to happen if they don't want to do it (evidence: class story arc continuation).

Holy off topic trolling...my god, this is your worst attempt ever to derail a thread.

OP, I'm sorry you had issues and I'm sorry to see you leave again.

So what you're saying is: "2 million people quit because they didn't have customization options at launch". Care to support this with some actual numbers, or are we going to have to settle for "I pulled this out of my ***, and I'm going to run with it."? None of the people I know that played this game at launch left because of lack of customization, they had a list of other more game breaking things that they went on about.

 

....

And what exactly do you think these people are buying from the CM now that are keeping the game out of maintenance mode? "The game" can't stand on its own. It's a solo game with an endgame grind. This is what it was at launch and what it still is today. They haven't fixed that and apparently have no plans to do so, so the game will live or die now based on shinies in its cash shop.

And what exactly do you think these people are buying from the CM now that are keeping the game out of maintenance mode? "The game" can't stand on its own. It's a solo game with an endgame grind. This is what it was at launch and what it still is today. They haven't fixed that and apparently have no plans to do so, so the game will live or die now based on shinies in its cash shop.

I don't think that's entirely fair. I don't think the game is solely tied to its cash shop.

Take me, for example. Now I don't know how many players there are like me, but I think I'm "normal" so I have to assume there are a lot.

Me, I pay a subscription. Just like you do. Just like Andryah, TUXs, brankamuffin, everyone posting here. We pay that subscription for a reason but ultimately that reason is that we find fun value for the dollars we spend. We might like different things - flash points, war zones, operations, crafting, forum PvP, whatever. And we pay the subscription to get it.

Some of us - myself included - have never and almost certainly will never spend a dime on a Cartel Coin. Ever. Sure, I use a lot of items that come from the Cartel Market. I love a lot of the stuff from the Cartel Market. I think it's pretty awesome, too.

But every one of the Cartel Market things I have acquired or used has come from GTN or from the stipend of coins I receive as a subscriber.

In order to keep my subscription, BioWare has to keep putting more of the things into the game that I subscribe to do. Personally, just for myself, that's PvE content of all flavors and sizes. Plus, many will say, letting me keep playing at forum PvP once in a while. And they've done that, better in the recent past than in the distant past. The roadmap looks OK to me, too.

Bottom line is that unless I'm an abnormal subscriber - meaning most subscribers actually do buy Cartel Coins over and above their stipend - the game isn't living or dying or thriving solely upon Cartel Market sales. Subscriptions have a whole lot to do with it too.

I don't think that's entirely fair. I don't think the game is solely tied to its cash shop.

 

Take me, for example. Now I don't know how many players there are like me, but I think I'm "normal" so I have to assume there are a lot.

 

Me, I pay a subscription. Just like you do. Just like Andryah, TUXs, brankamuffin, everyone posting here. We pay that subscription for a reason but ultimately that reason is that we find fun value for the dollars we spend. We might like different things - flash points, war zones, operations, crafting, forum PvP, whatever. And we pay the subscription to get it.

 

Some of us - myself included - have never and almost certainly will never spend a dime on a Cartel Coin. Ever. Sure, I use a lot of items that come from the Cartel Market. I love a lot of the stuff from the Cartel Market. I think it's pretty awesome, too.

 

But every one of the Cartel Market things I have acquired or used has come from GTN or from the stipend of coins I receive as a subscriber.

 

In order to keep my subscription, BioWare has to keep putting more of the things into the game that I subscribe to do. Personally, just for myself, that's PvE content of all flavors and sizes. Plus, many will say, letting me keep playing at forum PvP once in a while. And they've done that, better in the recent past than in the distant past. The roadmap looks OK to me, too.

 

Bottom line is that unless I'm an abnormal subscriber - meaning most subscribers actually do buy Cartel Coins over and above their stipend - the game isn't living or dying or thriving solely upon Cartel Market sales.

Apparently we (those who don't pay extra on the CM) are the minority. Probably not in quantity, but definitely in revenue per person, if you would believe the revenue numbers anyway.

We are the red-headed stepchildren of TOR now. We are not important. They wrote us off 2 years ago and now the CM is it. Do you think it's a coincidence that the "free" GSF is modeled more on a phone game than an MMO? It's designed as a vehicle to sell add-ons through the CM. This is the new normal of TOR.

Apparently we (those who don't pay extra on the CM) are the minority. Probably not in quantity, but definitely in revenue per person, if you would believe the revenue numbers anyway.

 

We are the red-headed stepchildren of TOR now. We are not important. They wrote us off 2 years ago and now the CM is it. Do you think it's a coincidence that the "free" GSF is modeled more on a phone game than an MMO? It's designed as a vehicle to sell add-ons through the CM. This is the new normal of TOR.

I was going to say this as well. It seems that every new content expansion will see a requisite cartel market push for vanity items. This game has been sliding down the slope ever since the idea of the cartel market came about. Just like STO and every other game model that uses a cash shop to support the game and not a monthly fee, eventually, in order to compete, you will need to buy CM items.

Apparently we (those who don't pay extra on the CM) are the minority. Probably not in quantity, but definitely in revenue per person, if you would believe the revenue numbers anyway.

 

We are the red-headed stepchildren of TOR now. We are not important. They wrote us off 2 years ago and now the CM is it. Do you think it's a coincidence that the "free" GSF is modeled more on a phone game than an MMO? It's designed as a vehicle to sell add-ons through the CM. This is the new normal of TOR.

I was going to say this as well. It seems that every new content expansion will see a requisite cartel market push for vanity items. This game has been sliding down the slope ever since the idea of the cartel market came about. Just like STO and every other game model that uses a cash shop to support the game and not a monthly fee, eventually, in order to compete, you will need to buy CM items.

That's irrational and feels like persecution complex. If that's the case, then why did they do these:

• New Story Mission Area: Oricon!
  
• Warzone Arenas!
  
• New Level 55 Daily Missions!
  
• New Operation: Dread Fortress!
  
• New Operation: Dread Palace!
  
• GSF
  
• Kuat Drive Yards
  

And why are they doing these:

• Two new Flashpoints on Tython and Korriban where the Empire and Republic confront each other directly, initiating a new storyline that will span updates across the entire year until its galaxy-shaking finale
  
• Nightmare Mode Dread Fortress Operation and a new tier of gear
  
• New Huttball Warzone on Quesh
  
• New Galactic Starfighter Battle Zone
  
• Nightmare Mode Dread Palace Operation
  
• New ships and an entirely new Ship Role for Galactic Starfighter
  

And to top it all the Cartel Market is an endorsed RNG gambling system inside a game which is played by children.

I'm guessing you mean cartel packs and not the market. Even so, cartel packs are NOT gambling. You are buying a pack with 6 random items in it. Good or bad, you are getting 6 random items.

I'm guessing you mean cartel packs and not the market. Even so, cartel packs are NOT gambling. You are buying a pack with 6 random items in it. Good or bad, you are getting 6 random items.

They are gambling, where gambling is defined as a game of chance. You don't have to have a chance at getting nothing for it to be a gamble.

So today we learned if you're trying to play SWTOR from China, you're going to have a bad time. Not much of a surprise here.

The gold farmers say otherwise.

That's irrational and feels like persecution complex. If that's the case, then why did they do these:

 

• New Story Mission Area: Oricon!
  
• Warzone Arenas!
  
• New Level 55 Daily Missions!
  
• New Operation: Dread Fortress!
  
• New Operation: Dread Palace!
  
• GSF
  
• Kuat Drive Yards
  

 

And why are they doing these:

• Two new Flashpoints on Tython and Korriban where the Empire and Republic confront each other directly, initiating a new storyline that will span updates across the entire year until its galaxy-shaking finale
  
• Nightmare Mode Dread Fortress Operation and a new tier of gear
  
• New Huttball Warzone on Quesh
  
• New Galactic Starfighter Battle Zone
  
• Nightmare Mode Dread Palace Operation
  
• New ships and an entirely new Ship Role for Galactic Starfighter
  

I would post a list of free-for-subscriber content expansions from CoH's first two years as comparison, but TOR might die of embarrassment.

I would post a list of free-for-subscriber content expansions from CoH's first two years as comparison, but TOR might die of embarrassment.

I would post a list of free-for-subscriber content expansions from CoH's first two years as comparison, but TOR might die of embarrassment.

Those aren't from the first 2 years. I think I went only as far back as 2.4.

My point stands. A lot of content that is not Cartel Market has come and continues to come.

Hm.. I can understand how you feel. Maybe better to start playing something that will give you exactly what you want. If it doesn't appeal to you, forcing yourself to like it won't do the trick.

I tried out the free trial when the game was released and didn't like it either. Went back to it 3 weeks ago and am having a blast this time around...

One thing I like about this game is the story and other mmo's I tried simply didn't provide me the kind of story that would suck me into it. This one does.

As a subscriber with a character in her mid 20's, until now I haven't felt the need to buy anything from the cartel market apart from some extra hairstyles but that's just cosmetics. The majority of people I talked to ingame were subscribers that don't spend much of their CC. Everything I really need I get by playing the game. I go off to do quests and leave the crafting to my ship droid. To me it's a relief not having to stand around at the crafting table but having my crafting done for me while I play the game.

I tried out the ESO beta as well. Not impressed *sigh*. I think I'll stick with SW:TOR.

I have tried so hard to like this game

Obviously not, or you would like it. Clearly it's not your cup of tea.

Move along.

And what exactly do you think these people are buying from the CM now that are keeping the game out of maintenance mode? "The game" can't stand on its own. It's a solo game with an endgame grind. This is what it was at launch and what it still is today. They haven't fixed that and apparently have no plans to do so, so the game will live or die now based on shinies in its cash shop.

So what you're saying is "No, I don't have any numbers to back up my claim, I pulled it out of my ***, and I'm going to run with it". So long as we understand each other. The vanity items that are selling (aka fluff) are exactly the things that drive the majority of F2P w/CS models. Mounts, effectively cosmetic armor that's moddable instead of just in it's own slot, etc etc. So what you're saying is every F2P game has it wrong? There are games out there with P2W CSs destroying their chances at new players. There are games out there going so far away from their base premise that they are driving off old players. This model, where yes, you can Legacy unlock a set of armor with no base stats(aka cosmetic), is far from game breaking.

As to "solo game with end game grind", what game isn't? I have solod my way to max levels in more MMOs than I care to remember. All of them have the same problem, once you get to max level, it's the same stuff over and over and over, and the best you can hope for is to enjoy the ride. I walked away from one MMO because I had 2 chars to cap, and one that was nearly there, in the span of 2 weeks. After that, it was going to be the same grind over and over and over. If said grind had been interesting, I might have stuck around, but it really wasn't. So that's nothing unique to this game.

So what you're saying is "No, I don't have any numbers to back up my claim, I pulled it out of my ***, and I'm going to run with it". So long as we understand each other. The vanity items that are selling (aka fluff) are exactly the things that drive the majority of F2P w/CS models. Mounts, effectively cosmetic armor that's moddable instead of just in it's own slot, etc etc. So what you're saying is every F2P game has it wrong? There are games out there with P2W CSs destroying their chances at new players. There are games out there going so far away from their base premise that they are driving off old players. This model, where yes, you can Legacy unlock a set of armor with no base stats(aka cosmetic), is far from game breaking.

 

As to "solo game with end game grind", what game isn't? I have solod my way to max levels in more MMOs than I care to remember. All of them have the same problem, once you get to max level, it's the same stuff over and over and over, and the best you can hope for is to enjoy the ride. I walked away from one MMO because I had 2 chars to cap, and one that was nearly there, in the span of 2 weeks. After that, it was going to be the same grind over and over and over. If said grind had been interesting, I might have stuck around, but it really wasn't. So that's nothing unique to this game.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The MMO formula is broken. Smashed. Pulverized. Done like dinner.

When 2.5 million people show up for a new one, and 80% of them leave in a few months the problem isn't "we don't have enough stuff", the problem is "we are concentrating on entirely the wrong stuff".

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The MMO formula is broken. Smashed. Pulverized. Done like dinner.

 

When 2.5 million people show up for a new one, and 80% of them leave in a few months the problem isn't "we don't have enough stuff", the problem is "we are concentrating on entirely the wrong stuff".

Actually, those people left exactly because they "did not have enough stuff". And that is what is wrong with MMORPG market toady - people expecting every new game to somehow have the same amount of content and features as a game that is played and developed for a decade, which is simply impossible...

I have tried so hard to like this game,

Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The MMO formula is broken. Smashed. Pulverized. Done like dinner.

 

When 2.5 million people show up for a new one, and 80% of them leave in a few months the problem isn't "we don't have enough stuff", the problem is "we are concentrating on entirely the wrong stuff".

Here's the thing though, this model is proving to make more money, and not just here, as I can't say what kind of money they are making here, and frankly, to expect a company to not be in it for the money isn't a problem with the gaming industry as a whole, but with the people that think they should really provide everything for free with no thought of profit. That's not how business works.

Also, as the other poster said, new games don't release with 5 years of content behind them, and they never have. Expectations can be killer. I wonder though, how many left because there was no Princess Leia or Luke Skywalker, or no Darth Vader to work for? How many of them saw Star Wars and thought "Yay, I'm going to meet xxxx"? I could easily pull your trick and say millions, but I won't. But I'd be willing to bet there were some.

Those aren't from the first 2 years. I think I went only as far back as 2.4.

 

My point stands. A lot of content that is not Cartel Market has come and continues to come.

1.1 (1/18/2012)

- Operation: Karraga's Palace expansion

- New FP: Kaon Under Siege

- New Event: Rise of the Rakghouls

1.2 (4/12/2012)

- QoL: Legacy system

- QoL: Customizable UI

- QoL: Guild Banks

- QoL: Combat Log

- New Operation: Explosive Conflict

- New Flashpoint: Lost Island

- New Mission Area: Black Hole

- New WZ: Novare Coast

- New World Boss: Nightmare Pilgrim

1.3 (6/26/2012)

- QoL: Groupfinder

- QoL: Augment slots

- New PvP: Ranked War Zones

- QoL: All GTN terminals connected

1.4 (9/26/2012)

- New Operation: Terror From Beyond

- QoL: Match color to chest

- QoL: BoP and BoL items tradeable between grouped players

1.5 (11/15/2012)

- Cartel Market introduced

- New Mission Area: Section X

- New Event: HK-51 companion quest chain

- Operation: EC NiM

- New World Boss: Dreadtooth

- QoL: Additional cargo hold storage & quickslot bars

1.6 (12/11/2012)

- New WZ: Ancient Hypergate

- New Space: Heroic missions

- New Space: Grade 7 artifact Starship Upgrades

- New Event: Life Day Celebration

1.7 (2/12/2013)

- New Event: Relics of the Gree

- New Operation: Gray Secant

- New Faction: Galactic Reputation

2.0 (4/9/2013)

- New Planet: Makeb

- New Operation: Scum & Villany

- New HM FPs: Athiss, Cademimu, Hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders

2.2 (6/12/2013)

- Operation: TFB NiM

- QoL: Guild XP and reputation bonus system

2.3 (8/6/2013)

- New 55 FPs: Czerka Corporate Labs, Czerka Core Meltdown

- New Event: Bounty Contract Week

2.4 (10/1/2013)

- New Operations: Dread Fortress, Dread Palace

- New Mission Areas: Oricon, CZ-198

2.5 (12/04/2013)

- New game element: Galactic Starfighter

2.6 (02/04/2014)

- New Flashpoint: Kuat Drive Yards Tactical Flashpoint

- New GSF: Team Deathmatch Gameplay Mode

- New GSF: Hangar Bay

"About every 60 days or so" as announced in last summer's earnings call. To check out these as well as the other 120+ game updates for specifics of additional content additions & updates, faction additions & updates, new and recurring special events, QoL additions and upgrades, class updates, companion additions & updates, environment upgrades, etc. please check out http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/1212014/patch-notes-2.5.2a.

I play CM free. Don't buy the stuff, don't equip/use/wear the stuff.

I prefer it that way.