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Class Representatives Are Here!


EricMusco

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This is certainly an interesting question to raise, and you are probably not alone in asking it so I thought I would answer it. Except the part about me being fired of course :p

 

There are two parts to your post I want to hit, first bugs being reported and not fixed. Amber could come into this thread and attest to just how vigilant we are about tracking bugs and passing them on to the development team. In fact, that is a large part of Amber's job on the team! Unfortunately, just passing a bug onto the dev folks doesn't guarantee it suddenly gets fixed. The devs have to juggle developing future content, all bug fixes, and many other tasks. Sometimes that one bug may just be a lower priority than something else that is being worked on, and this includes coming from PTS.

 

As for us as a team passing information on to the dev team to get answers, this is absolutely something we do. I work constantly to try to get answers to questions you guys have here on the forums. However, sometimes I am just unable to provide an answer which is why it may appear we are remaining quiet. The other issue, is that sometimes even when we provide answers, you guys will feel like we are ignoring the question you are trying to ask. Class Reps solve both of these problems.

 

First, this new initiative allowed me to get a "guarantee" of sorts from the combat folks that no matter what we throw at them, they will give you some sort of answer to that question. Like I said in the intro, this may not always be exactly what you want to hear, but it will be an answer. Secondly, we can't be answering the wrong questions since you the community get to choose them.

 

At the end of the day this is of course something that we could do as a Community team and should the Class Reps not work out as we hope, we will continue to work on getting you answers about Classes. However, in the meantime this new system allows us a cool new opportunity to work together and I hope you guys can see it as that.

 

-eric

 

Dear Eric Musco,

 

I applaud your efforts in looking for new ways to engage the community. It is appreciated and we know your heart is in the right place. Your execution, however, is...misguided.

 

Secondly, we can't be answering the wrong questions since you the community get to choose them.

 

This is not the case Eric. One community member gets to choose all three questions for each advanced class. This person is chosen through a forum popularity contest that you have to be a reasonably active forum user to even know about and to vote in. Unless your definition of the SWTOR community is comprised of a handful of people, the community as a whole is choosing nothing and your continued attempts to convince of us this are flat out insulting.

 

If you are totally committed to this idea and really want this to work, we should be voting on which questions are going to be answered, not on who gets to decide on what they are. That way the community does actually get to choose. You could make 2 threads each month for each advanced class (to split the PVE and PVP questions) where anyone can post their class questions and you choose the three that will be answered, alternating each month between 2 PVP and 1 PVE and vice versa. This ensures that everyone will have equal access to the process should they choose to exercise it, rather than consolidating power into the hands of just a couple of community members.

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terrible idea.

 

the forums are not representative of the games player base nor the real issues that each class needs to be addressed. also no player does nor shall even pretend to know both pvp and pve equally. what I have seen happen in other mmos is that this has lead to nothing more of a popularity contest reminiscent of what is seen in the workplace or educational environments. competency isn't taken into consideration.

 

usually such representatives quickly find out that their input isn't always listened to exactly. that they are a scapegoat if and when poor decisions are made. such decisions will always made too. I wish anyone who aspires to do this the best of luck and rethink exactly what he is getting into as no matter what decision is made or poll shows you will be blamed when bioware screws it up.

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I just found out about this Class Representative System, definitely a step in the right direction (+1!)

 

Eric, some thoughts on this topic:

I dropped by the all the class' Class Representative Nomination threads, and as it is right now, It seems the elected Representative for each AC will be Force-Bullied into their position by a small clique, regardless of how helpful they have been to the community and how much involvement they have had with both styles of SWOTR (PVP / PVE).

 

There are other cases of people who have bid for the job, have not contributed to their class forums / are not known, but have vowed to start participating / increase participation if elected (Equals to electing someone with no credentials, who promises they'll build up such credentials post-election).

 

Since we'll only have 2 spots per AC, 1 per faction (for both PVP/PVE), and in the spirit of having a class Representative that has really contributed to the community and their specific AC, I thought of some items that the community (Us Voters) and community managers (Eric et al.) should consider when voting / accepting noms:

 

*Candidates need to be a proven long time contributor to the class forums they're running for

*Candidates need to demonstrate sufficient participation in both PVE and PVP content

*Candidates have not been banned from SWTOR in the past (No Hacks, Exploiting, in any of their accounts... etc)

*Other relevant factors I missed

 

Something else of concern:

 

Could you talk about the voting process and how it will be set up? and will it be as tamper proof as reasonably possible? I mean, who is to say that John Doe and his posse are not loading up multiple forum accounts to nominate / cast multiple votes in their best interest? Anonymity in this game and the forums is already rampant, where legacy names are not unique, cannot be checked by examining players, and display optionally - and pretty much anyone can create forum accounts and post on any board...

 

I'd hate to see this (and your effort) turn into controversy and a meaningless joke, if it's not executed properly. Has it been considered to start accepting written questions from players, and bring up the 3 that came up the most? or put up 10 and have the community vote, select 3 that'll be answered by the combat team, per AC?

Edited by Seengularity
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I just found out about this Class Representative System, definitely a step in the right direction (+1!)

 

Eric, some thoughts on this topic:

I dropped by the all the class' Class Representative Nomination threads, and as it is right now, It seems the elected Representative for each AC will be Force-Bullied into their position by a small clique, regardless of how helpful they have been to the community and how much involvement they have had with both styles of SWOTR (PVP / PVE).

 

There are other cases of people who have bid for the job, have not contributed to their class forums / are not known, but have vowed to start participating / increase participation if elected (Equals to electing someone with no credentials, who promises they'll build up such credentials post-election).

 

Since we'll only have 2 spots per AC, 1 per faction (for both PVP/PVE), and in the spirit of having a class Representative that has really contributed to the community and their specific AC, I thought of some items that the community (Us Voters) and community managers (Eric et al.) should consider when voting / accepting noms:

 

*Candidates need to be a proven long time contributor to the class forums they're running for

*Candidates need to demonstrate sufficient participation in both PVE and PVP content

*Candidates have not been banned from SWTOR in the past (No Hacks, Exploiting, in any of their accounts... etc)

*Other relevant factors I missed

 

Something else of concern:

 

Could you talk about the voting process and how it will be set up? and will it be as tamper proof as reasonably possible? I mean, who is to say that John Doe and his posse are not loading up multiple forum accounts to nominate / cast multiple votes in their best interest? Anonymity in this game and the forums is already rampant, where legacy names are not unique, cannot be checked by examining players, and display optionally - and pretty much anyone can create forum accounts and post on any board...

 

I'd hate to see this (and your effort) turn into controversy and a meaningless joke, if it's not executed properly. Has it been considered to start accepting written questions from players, and bring up the 3 that came up the most? or put up 10 and have the community vote, select 3 that'll be answered by the combat team, per AC?

 

I imagine it would be subs only who vote as f2p can't post.

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This is certainly an interesting question to raise, and you are probably not alone in asking it so I thought I would answer it. Except the part about me being fired of course :p

 

There are two parts to your post I want to hit, first bugs being reported and not fixed. Amber could come into this thread and attest to just how vigilant we are about tracking bugs and passing them on to the development team. In fact, that is a large part of Amber's job on the team! Unfortunately, just passing a bug onto the dev folks doesn't guarantee it suddenly gets fixed. The devs have to juggle developing future content, all bug fixes, and many other tasks. Sometimes that one bug may just be a lower priority than something else that is being worked on, and this includes coming from PTS.

 

As for us as a team passing information on to the dev team to get answers, this is absolutely something we do. I work constantly to try to get answers to questions you guys have here on the forums. However, sometimes I am just unable to provide an answer which is why it may appear we are remaining quiet. The other issue, is that sometimes even when we provide answers, you guys will feel like we are ignoring the question you are trying to ask. Class Reps solve both of these problems.

 

First, this new initiative allowed me to get a "guarantee" of sorts from the combat folks that no matter what we throw at them, they will give you some sort of answer to that question. Like I said in the intro, this may not always be exactly what you want to hear, but it will be an answer. Secondly, we can't be answering the wrong questions since you the community get to choose them.

 

At the end of the day this is of course something that we could do as a Community team and should the Class Reps not work out as we hope, we will continue to work on getting you answers about Classes. However, in the meantime this new system allows us a cool new opportunity to work together and I hope you guys can see it as that.

 

-eric

 

I want to say, I was by no means trying to call the dev team out on how they deal with bugs and fixes. My questions where more rhetorical in nature. In other words, this new implementation just opens the door for the community to wonder what the purpose of the forums was to begin with and what the purpose of your job (and Amber's) is.

 

I am sure I could guess 2/3 of the first round of questions for each AC just by going into each class thread and reading the top 3 responded to threads. Your first round of questions will include these things, why not just give us responses to each large thread as they appear? Why have these issues not been brought up; and if they have why hasn't there been a response? This is the core of the issue.

 

In effect, these new representatives will do one of two things:

 

1) Pick the top 3 threads in each AC forum and ask those questions.

2) Create their own thread and ask the community which 3 questions they want asked. In which case the community will respond with their top 3 threads within that AC forum.

 

Do you see the circle here? You can remove the representatives and this sort of thing should have been happening independent of them. Since it wasn't, I am worried. Why did it take this long to figure out (and implement)?

 

I applaud your efforts to interact with the community, but I fear they end up falling solely in the "Vanity" category.

 

I would like to see a situation (you can make an official post and moderate it yourself or use a "class representative") where there is a medium to discuss issues with AC's and the direction it is going in. In this medium, the community would have a roll in designing the future abilities and skills of an AC. You may get some odd ball responses like "give me 21342142142421 stuns". Instead of a "No", you can just tell us that it throws the scales out of balance and hinders "X" AC over here. That kind of feedback and interaction helps.

 

Things like the "Tank Balance" issue. You guys say "our metrics XXXXXXX". Well, what exactly are you measuring in those metrics? The community has said "we have measured x, x and x and found a discrepancy." Why is everything so secretive (NDA aside)?

 

The whole idea with this Class Rep things is to communicate with the community; take this a step further and let us interact with developing the game we play (at least interact with the concepts). If you open up that dialogue, it will become an industry standard and completely change this game and the way the community views the creators on a fundamental level.

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After seeing a lot of the feedback you guys are giving here in this thread we are going to add an addendum to one of the rules. As you guys have mentioned some folks have some concerns about a Class Representative not doing a good job of representing both PvP and PvE concerns. I can definitely see the validity of this concern and although I don't really want to put too many rules in place, we agree this may be needed. So...

 

When a Class Representative posts his top 3 questions/issues to go to the Combat team, 1 question must be PvE related and 1 must be PvP. That will allow the 3rd question to be a wildcard and cover any other issue they feel is necessary. We will allow exceptions if needed, like if there are clearly 3 PvE issues which overshadow PvP, we can talk with the Representative about exceptions. However, as a general rule, 1 PvP, 1 PvE, 1 whatever you want!

How about adding a fourth question that must be RP related? Edited by Glzmo
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How about adding a fourth question that must be RP related?

 

Because class mechanics/abilities have nothing to do with RP gaming.

 

Not trying to dismiss your efforts in getting some RP representation, believe me I think it should just like any other gameplay feature, but this is in regards to AC skills and what players feel they wish to address to the developers.

 

Hopefully in time, they can add in some extra Q/A sessions for RP, PvP, PvE, Space, Crafting, etc.

Edited by Pistols
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Just a question: What about questions which are not related to the classes. I imagine there are some topics like the relics which are cross classes questions.

 

It would be cool if the rep's would be part of a council which decide on two questions each month which are not related to the classes but to game overall!

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Because class mechanics/abilities have nothing to do with RP gaming.

 

Not trying to dismiss your efforts in getting some RP representation, believe me I think it should just like any other gameplay feature, but this is in regards to AC skills and what players feel they wish to address to the developers.

 

Hopefully in time, they can add in some extra Q/A sessions for RP, PvP, PvE, Space, Crafting, etc.

 

This is fairly accurate. I am not sure that RP is a playstyle that is too distinctly tied to classes. As stated earlier in the thread, if we see success with this plan than we will certainly consider extending it out to other parts of the game. RP, Flashpoints, Operations, etc.

 

-eric

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This is fairly accurate. I am not sure that RP is a playstyle that is too distinctly tied to classes. As stated earlier in the thread, if we see success with this plan than we will certainly consider extending it out to other parts of the game. RP, Flashpoints, Operations, etc.

 

-eric

 

I hope that etc includes Space Combat *cough cough* SSSP *cough*

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Dear BW,

 

Please be careful if you leave this entirely in player hands. I've noticed some votes will be going to a specific person due to either

 

1 - Their friends voting because they asked

2 - Popularity

3- Persuasion

 

This is a serious concern for me, as I've noticed many people are promoting certain persons simply because their stream convinces said people to go vote. Some of these people being nominated have not even been active in the forums for months nor do they donate or contribute as much to the community as some other nominees have. Others who remain active in this community have and continue to devote to it. It would be utterly upsetting to see said persons be cast out simply because of a popularity contest.

 

Please consider this strongly before just 'leaving it entirely' in the player hands.

Edited by Wreckingeyes
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Dear BW,

 

Please be careful if you leave this entirely in player hands. I've noticed some votes will be going to a specific person due to either

 

1 - Their friends voting because they asked

2 - Popularity

3- Persuasion

 

Polls aren't even out, but didn't you preemptively vote for Xinika? o.O

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As for us as a team passing information on to the dev team to get answers, this is absolutely something we do. I work constantly to try to get answers to questions you guys have here on the forums. However, sometimes I am just unable to provide an answer which is why it may appear we are remaining quiet. The other issue, is that sometimes even when we provide answers, you guys will feel like we are ignoring the question you are trying to ask. Class Reps solve both of these problems.

 

Um, what? That doesn't make any sense. So sometimes you are unable to provide answers which is why it may appear you are remaining quiet, but Class Reps will solve that problem? They will magically make you able to provide answers?

 

and sometimes even when you provide answers, the community feels the question they tried to ask is ignored so Class Reps will solve that problem? They will magically change your answers so that it addresses the question they originally asked?

 

Dude, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I can't believe you actually wrote that and posted it for the public to see. You are USING, yes using, the class reps to be secretaries and organize all the class questions so you don't have to read through forum posts. The community team has been a disaster since the game launched. Recently posting within 24 hours of 2.2.2 that the patch was planned to be delayed a day because of 4th of July because you forgot to let us know what was already planned how long in advance?

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Um, what? That doesn't make any sense. So sometimes you are unable to provide answers which is why it may appear you are remaining quiet, but Class Reps will solve that problem? They will magically make you able to provide answers?

 

and sometimes even when you provide answers, the community feels the question they tried to ask is ignored so Class Reps will solve that problem? They will magically change your answers so that it addresses the question they originally asked?

 

Dude, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I can't believe you actually wrote that and posted it for the public to see. You are USING, yes using, the class reps to be secretaries and organize all the class questions so you don't have to read through forum posts. The community team has been a disaster since the game launched. Recently posting within 24 hours of 2.2.2 that the patch was planned to be delayed a day because of 4th of July because you forgot to let us know what was already planned how long in advance?

 

Class reps solve these problems because they can tell the devs the real issues. Scanning over pages and pages of poorly-worded posts is, quite frankly, a waste of time. Even if they took the time to do that, they still wouldn't necessarily come up with the biggest issues. The forum-using community is not equally balanced between PvP and PvE, and it is not equally balanced between the classes, the advanced classes, or the individual specs. Save your judgement until you can actually comprehend the mentality behind the decision. Until you care enough to even try.

Edited by idnewton
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Class reps solve these problems because they can tell the devs the real issues. Scanning over pages and pages of poorly-worded posts is, quite frankly, a waste of time. Even if they took the time to do that, they still wouldn't necessarily come up with the biggest issues. Such a small portion of the community use the forums, and nearly all are subscribers (since F2P/Prefered cannot post). The forum-using community is not equally balanced between PvP and PvE, and it is not equally balanced between the classes, advanced classes, and individual specs. Save your judgement until you can actually comprehend the mentality behind the decision. Until you even care enough to try.

 

OK then please explain to me what Eric and Amber get PAID to do... because it seems to me that all they're doing here is outsourcing their job to the community....

 

Class Rep= Unpaid Secretary

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OK then please explain to me what Eric and Amber get PAID to do... because it seems to me that all they're doing here is outsourcing their job to the community....

 

Class Rep= Unpaid Secretary

 

^ This.

 

I mean make me a class rep and give me the dev's email/phone numbers and then I don't even need eric or amber as middle people to pass the questions and answers along between the 2 parties.

 

Now I'm sure they do more than just that, but the point remains it really just looks like they are getting the community to do part of their job for them, but not sharing any of their salary with these reps.

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OK then please explain to me what Eric and Amber get PAID to do... because it seems to me that all they're doing here is outsourcing their job to the community....

 

Class Rep= Unpaid Secretary

 

They're paid to deal with people like you.

 

The Class Representitives are a great idea, and will help improve the feedback that classes need. What the Community Managers are paid to do is not your concern at all.

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Class reps solve these problems because they can tell the devs the real issues. Scanning over pages and pages of poorly-worded posts is, quite frankly, a waste of time. Even if they took the time to do that, they still wouldn't necessarily come up with the biggest issues. The forum-using community is not equally balanced between PvP and PvE, and it is not equally balanced between the classes, the advanced classes, or the individual specs. Save your judgement until you can actually comprehend the mentality behind the decision. Until you care enough to even try.

 

You should go back to the last page and read my post. The issues the "majority" of the community want to have answered can be found by the most viewed/responded to threads. You don't have to read through pages.....you just have to read the top. That is how forums work.

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You should go back to the last page and read my post. The issues the "majority" of the community want to have answered can be found by the most viewed/responded to threads. You don't have to read through pages.....you just have to read the top. That is how forums work.

 

People don't post what the 'majority' wants, they post what they want. People also do not necessarily reply to the most important posts. By your logic the devs should indeed post SirCopperfield billboards around fleet because people reply to his threads.

 

I'm sorry you don't understand how people's mentality works, but it isn't my job to explain it to you. Pretty much what you're saying is "they don't need to do this" well they are. What's to lose?

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People don't post what the 'majority' wants, they post what they want. People also do not necessarily reply to the most important posts. By your logic the devs should indeed post SirCopperfield billboards around fleet because people reply to his threads.

 

I'm sorry you don't understand how people's mentality works, but it isn't my job to explain it to you. Pretty much what you're saying is "they don't need to do this" well they are. What's to lose?

 

You make the assumption that the class representatives will ask the "most important" questions. It is not difficult to look in a AC forum and pick the top 3 issues. Why do we need someone that doesn't get paid to collect them?

 

I am saying they do not need to do this. There is nothing to loose. However, it opens the door for other more serious questions:

 

1) Why can't the current community team do this? Why do they need an unpaid player to help them?

2) Is there a better way to accomplish what they are trying to?

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You make the assumption that the class representatives will ask the "most important" questions.

 

You make the assumption that forumers will. There's nothing to lose with this idea. You need to calm down and get off the Community Managers' case. What good will come of it? None, that's what. So stop.

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You make the assumption that forumers will. There's nothing to lose with this idea. You need to calm down and get off the Community Managers' case. What good will come of it? None, that's what. So stop.

 

I make the assumption that the most responded to threads within each AC forum have the most prominent questions/issues that the community on this forum is interested in. This new system makes the assumption that one person knows what the issues are OR that one person can gather the issues. In either case, one can just look at the forums...

 

What good can come of this new system? None, just puts another step between us and the Devs.

 

Before System: Thought --> Forum Post --> Community Team --> Devs

After System: Thought --> Forum Post --> AC Rep --> *Maybe a Weekly Question* --> Community Team --> Devs

 

This is more of a Vanity thing. Now, if you read my post you would know that I am not all over the Community Manger's case. Rather, I see what they are trying to do --> Saw a Flaw --> Pointed it Out --> Made a Suggestion for Change. I didn't even resort to trying to bully him :rolleyes:

Edited by Grimsblood
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