By signing up for grouped, you're signing up for premades. The universe is also fair: when the hardcores go solo because they can't win as much, we'll be stuck with them in our queue; but alone, they wont be much a problem. If someone says they will be, they're full of it.

When both teams are full of badds that cant break 90k damage - and I have seen a team like that yesterday, one player that wil put up 1 mil+ damage will be the game-changing factor and then you will come here and you will moan that he was on the other team. I already see it "hardcores are ruining non-ranked warzones QQ".

L2P --------------> profit.

When both teams are full of badds that cant break 90k damage - and I have seen a team like that yesterday, one player that wil put up 1 mil+ damage will be the game-changing factor and then you will come here and you will moan that he was on the other team.

The reason why one great player is not a problem isn't that he wont have a big impact on the game(he will).

The reason why he isn't a problem is that in a solo-queueing system, the randomness of the matchmaking will over time ensure every participant will win eventually, and lose eventually. The super imp player might make his team win this match, but next match the rep team will get such a player, and next match both sides get one, and next match there are none.

There never will be a situation where one side loses match after match after match because the other side has the same highly coordinated team over and over.

The reason why one great player is not a problem isn't that he wont have a big impact on the game(he will).

 

The reason why he isn't a problem is that in a solo-queueing system, the randomness of the matchmaking will over time ensure every participant will win eventually, and lose eventually. The super imp player might make his team win this match, but next match the rep team will get such a player, and next match both sides get one, and next match there are none.

 

There never will be a situation where one side loses match after match after match because the other side has the same highly coordinated team over and over.

I may have lost my cool a bit, but I still say that if all the people who love premades on here think there is no problem with the way things are, or that matchmaking alone will solve all the problems, you are burying your head in the sand.

TBH I don't know you. You may, or may not, be evil PUGFarmers. However there is enough of them out there that all premades are going to get a bad name. Once a game gets a reputation for a specific negative issue such as this, then everyone who is playing begins to believe it. PUGS who try to start playing in WZ will get beat, and because nothing has been done about it they will assume it is down to the dodgy premades.

When one of the games I played got a rep for being hacked, my guild would often watch out for hacks, they would then get marked in any game and they would be picked off all the time on purpose. It was often very clear who was using the hacks, but the whole environment became infected with everyone believing that everyone else was using hacks. To the point it virtually killed the game.

You need to give PUGS an environment where they can grow in some way. On other games I have ended up joining guilds and groups after you play for a while. VOIP adds to this because it allows people to speak to other people, I would ignore list/report/kick idiots who either raged or played music. If anyone else was talking suggesting stuff I would listen, I would shout out basic stuff such as when a point was being taken, or where the fight was coming. After that a few players I would random in with begin chatting, and as I was listening and assisting the game they invited me to a clan/guild. In this game I just cannot see this happening anymore. People get squashed by the same premades/guilds, get bored and never come back. Giving people no in game way of countering premades ensures that people feel there is a big gap, an unbridgeable gap, matchmaking only fixes one of the three advantages to premades:

1) Composition - Of course being in a premade and knowing each other should offer some advantage. However at the moment the number of times I seem to end up with 50-75% healers makes the game pointless

2) Coordination - VOIP is a big advantage, for focus firing, spawning, etc. To suggest that newbie players just need better situational awareness, is kind of missing the point is it not (awareness comes from playing).

3) Gear - I would be willing to accept that if you have spent a long time grinding you should have some advantage. This might not be perfect with bolster as is, but it probably needs to be somewhere between nothing and bolster now.

Its possible that some kind of deathmatch warzone or arena might actually help this, with people being randomned together they might actually make friends, but all that I will guess that will happen is the premades/guilds will fill these arenas too, and with better composition/focused fire will burn up those queues too.

You can, as I say, keep pretending it's not your problem, and that somehow it is the newbies fault. This will not fix the issue, and soon the general queue will end up as dead as the ranked queue.

I rarely see anything useful in OP chat, and tbh it is confusing to use as putting it into focus on your screen can end up with you pressing keys mid battle that appear in chat rather than committing an action.

you are delusional if you don't think one side will still lose alot.

If you randomly assemble team A, and also randomly assemble team B, what makes you think team A will still lose a lot?

When both teams are full of badds that cant break 90k damage - and I have seen a team like that yesterday, one player that wil put up 1 mil+ damage will be the game-changing factor and then you will come here and you will moan that he was on the other team. I already see it "hardcores are ruining non-ranked warzones QQ".

L2P --------------> profit.

Indeed there are many bad pvp players. But if such people want to play in a different quenue why bother? Does it really makes fun to slaughter such noobs? I am playing sorc (lighting spec) and I can say that I am suprised how many sentinels/maras are there right now in WZ. Come on guys 2 smash monkeys that could not kill a sorc? It was pathetic. If you are a good pvp player it should be of no interest to play against such players. I don't know why many good pvp players are still insisting not to go separate ways with noobs.

Longer quenues? Maybe, but on Red Eclipse we have already plenty of people abandoning PVP. The quenues for lvl 55 became longer, plus once the noob players see that there is good opposite premade online they just stop quenuing or loose the WZ on purpose either by quitting or just doing nothing. I've seen quite a lot of such situations during last 3 weeks. If you ask them why? They are telling you that it will still be a loss anyway, so it makes no sense to waste time or "I don't want them to have an achievement", etc. Separation will give them some hope at least and time to L2P.

I don't care about losing, SWTOR is not that kind of the game where you are punished for death or loss of WZ, but many people care. Perhaps it is time for good PVP playes and bad ones to go separate ways?

IMHO it will make gave better, otherwise I fear the amount of PVP playes will again decrease.

I just don't see how you can not get that, with better PVP, PVE's and F2P's and just plain passerby's, or hell, even PVP players who specifically came to check out the PVP and didn't like the facerolling - - - don't stay in greater numbers when the queue isn't broken. If I were a PVE player, solo is the only queue I would play. I'm sure others are different but the point is, if they had logged in when F2P launched, or some other time when the population spiked, and tried the PVP and instead of getting facerolled by ranked slummers, seen the little box that said "solo-only queue"..... more of them would have stayed.

 

It's not like, my queue gets this much of the pie, and your queue gets this much of the pie, and that's how much pie there is, there is not any more pie in existence, in the entire universe, that's every bit of pie that has ever been and ever will be. Actually, if you can gather more berries, there's more than enough for everyone.

 

With better PVP there would be a better PVP population. We've had plenty come and leave. Right now there are people checking out this game and wondering, is this the one for me? Why don't we just answer it for them: Not with the queues like this.

People staying and/or joining for the Solo-only queue option has no effect on the group+solo option, which by your logic without the PuG's who would quit (or leave for the solo-only) will decline. Add 9,001 PuG'ers to the system, and the following flow chart still happens:

1. PuG Stomping in group+solo queue leads to more PuG's in the solo-only queue.

2. Less PuG's in the group+solo queue leads to longer queue times there.

3. Longer queue times cause group players to quit.

4. Group+solo population declines.

The only changes is the game shifts more and more to a PuG-only game, which doesn't solve the needs of the whole community.

So still, a solo-only option doesn't fix the problem does it?

what you dont seem to understand is that solo queue =/= better PvP......

 

you know how evil premades funnel the queue down until they are able to get their 2 4-man teams together for a super queue? you are aware of why that is so easy to do, right?

 

how hard do you think its going to be to do the exact same thing in the solo bracket? you will still see 4 man teams, and youll be right back here crying for something else.

 

on the other hand, skill based matchmaking would ensure that low skilled players would almost never play high skilled players, premade or otherwise.

 

 

solo queue is not a panacea. it would do very little to address the actual problem that exists in PvP: high skilled players get matched against low skilled players on a regular basis.

^

Also a good point.

Considering that we have 2 factions, if 4 players from the Imp side wait for a simultaneous queue pop chances are...

They end up on the same side. Considering the game also grabs the first 16 people in line if they all queue up 1,2,3,4 then chances are they're on the same side.

PuG tears flow, etc...

solo queue is not a panacea. it would do very little to address the actual problem that exists in PvP: high skilled players get matched against low skilled players on a regular basis.

Anybody else getting sick of pro-pack players constantly giving themselves credit for the considerable advantages that simple grouping gives them? I'm sick of it.

Coordination + Voip + Same team practice + gear + group composition > Skill.

Considering that we have 2 factions, if 4 players from the Imp side wait for a simultaneous queue pop chances are...

 

They end up on the same side. Considering the game also grabs the first 16 people in line if they all queue up 1,2,3,4 then chances are they're on the same side..

So you are admitting there are bottom feeding lowlifes in the queue. Excellent. The fix is not to give them their way.

Here's the fix: Kill Super-Queue.

Anybody else getting sick of pro-pack players constantly giving themselves credit for the considerable advantages that simple grouping gives them? I'm sick of it.

 

Coordination + Voip + Same team practice + gear + group composition > Skill.

Grouping in and of itself doesn't give you better coordination or gear or Voip.

Same team practice is really just understanding what each class should do at this point. If every player played their class properly, you'd be able to tell the actions of your team mates before they even begin their cast.

Group Composition isn't guaranteed to help except in ranked. Bringing 1 healer, 1 tank, and 2 dps steal means you can end up with 4 more healers, 4 more tanks, etc...

Anyone else tired of PuG's thinking grouping gives you GM armor and stunlocks their keyboard?

Anybody else getting sick of pro-pack players constantly giving themselves credit for the considerable advantages that simple grouping gives them? I'm sick of it.

 

Coordination + Voip + Same team practice + gear + group composition > Skill.

first off, gear is available to everyone. if you prepare for PvP while leveling you can get almost 50% of your partisan gear right off the bat.

and what does that have *anything* to do with what i just posted? i am not, havent anywhere in this thread denied that those advantages exist for premade groups. but guess what? they are available to everyone...... so form your own group if you think its so unfair.

a group of bad players that form a premade are still bad players..... having voip doesnt suddenly transform you into a pro gamer. and yea group composition matters, but are you folks seriously complaining about that? group composition has always mattered. in almost every game..... obviously having a healer and a tank is going to be advantageous..... not getting one or the other or both when you solo queue is the risk you take by queuing alone. if you want to have a decent composition when you PvP, MAKE FRIENDS AND GROUP WITH THEM.

when i see a healer in a WZ that does decently, i will sometimes invite them to my group after. we dont have voip, and i dont have any team chemistry with them, but id rather have a guaranteed competent healer than risk having none at all.

you complain about problems that already have clear and simple solutions, but declare that you are not interested in those solutions, so therefore bioware must develop whole new solutions for you.........

take some personal responsibility for how you play. if you do bad and lose constantly, chances are you are contributing to that fact. if playing by yourself is holding you back, make some friends in the game and play with them. its an MMO for fraks sake.

1) Composition - Of course being in a premade and knowing each other should offer some advantage. However at the moment the number of times I seem to end up with 50-75% healers makes the game pointless

2) Coordination - VOIP is a big advantage, for focus firing, spawning, etc. To suggest that newbie players just need better situational awareness, is kind of missing the point is it not (awareness comes from playing).

3) Gear - I would be willing to accept that if you have spent a long time grinding you should have some advantage. This might not be perfect with bolster as is, but it probably needs to be somewhere between nothing and bolster now.

Hiya. I just started reading the last few pages of this thread so if this was said somewhere in the last few hundred pages that I missed, I apologize.

In a lot of ways I can agree with what you're saying. The idea of a premade group is to deliberately have an advantage over your opponents. Wouldn't it resolve those issues you mentioned above if they simply added better criteria during the match making process?

In reference to the quote above:

1. Composition - matchmaking could compose the PuG with those who are speced into a particular role (or they could choose a role to perform, like in FPs). Composition would not be streamlined as well as in a premade, but at least it wouldn't be grossly offsides. It would also provide the structure for inexperienced players to participate as a member of a team, and not just a guy with a group of other guys (or girls) trying to nuke every guy they see without any concept of teamwork.

I will say that no matter the composition, bad player are bad players until they're not bad anymore. So you will always have people who don't call out incoming, don't protect nodes, and aren't good. Not everyone can be a good player and that is an advantage premades will always have. They have picked their members' with the understanding that they are a good group.

But a good PuG with congnitively sound individuals playing with roles attached to the matchmaking system would probably give those premades a run for their money.

2. Coordination. Situational Awareness is something that some people have naturally and some people are completely without. It is also something that can be developed. This is a personal development, not a team development. It's habitual. That being said, having the game provide a built-in VOIP channel solution isn't unheard of and would bridge the gap between the Teamspeakers and the rest. I've been in a premade as a guest and people in the premade didn't call things out or use their VoIP as intended and the group suffered for it. These limiations exist everywhere - but again, composition goes a long way. Premades normally hand pick their members and thats why they are so good.

3. Gear. I think Bloster is actually really cool and personally I enjoy it the way it is... Combining the idea of bloster taking gear into consideration on a comprehensive level with a better market for PvP gear in general, the PvP community would benefit I as a whole, in my opinion.

Ultimately, to develop new PvPers as players in the game, they should be exposed to the right way of doing things from the start. Utterly randomized groups of people seems silly to me. I think that if they added roles to queuing, tools for randomized groups to coordinate with each other, and refined scaling of bloster to provide accolades to those who worked for their gear but still a competitive edge for those who are newer, we would see the lines between premade groups and how amazing they are and randomized pugs blur. And if the line blurs, people will naturally grow into being better PVPers. In time, the community will host a variety of good players and we will all enjoy challenging competition.

Sorry for how long the post was. I really enjoyed reading everything that everyone has posted so far and I look forward to reading your responses.

Coordination - it's all about brain, I've seen full pug groups outcoordinating 2 pre mades and winning by far...

if all 8 pugs have brain, they will use their class to their advantage for group, not for their epeen.

gear - not an issue anymore

composition - well, yeah, here is one point for premade , some classes combined can give nice results, but I've beein in games won with 5 healers, and won with no healing at all.

Won a game full of sins+sorcs against smashers...

Biggest advantage of premade is less stupid in their team...

It's not about classes any more, it's quite balanced rock-paper-scizzors-lizzard-spock (how are merc/commandos now?), it's not about gear, not about coordination (after 1,5 year most peopel should already know what to do in each warzone and if they don't , there are plenty of guides).

it's all about who's got less stupid in their team = win.

Strong premades lost cause their node guardian was stupid.

you can't ban for being stupid (otherwise I would be banned ages ago )

4 great pugs > premade

voip is nothing, it takes a second to type 'hey I just met you and this is crazy, but I have 3 inc snow, so come help maybe' (in short '3inc snow' - or even '3 S')

chance of having 4 great players in pug is rather small.

last night we lost a turret, and excuse used by defender (I was defending but a guy came and told me to go and do something usefull), was 'he went to defend a node and was doing crew skills and didn't want to die'.

can you like stop quoting the morons pls? it's defeating the purpose of my ignore list...

Sorry, sometimes they just say something so... da***? That they manage to elicit a response from me.

This is what ruins warzones btw:

Playing Hypergate, teams are about tied. I'm queue'd as solo.

After a death, I opt to respawn and head for their node. It appears unguarded, which means there's at least a stealthed guard. No other option I break stealth and try for the node.

Instead of CC'ing and calling for help, the Shadow attacks me. We enter a duel over the node and it's pretty close, but I can tell the shadow's got the advantage on me. They're (the player) just better at 1 vs 1. The fight has dragged on a good 20-30 seconds and just as I'm about die, one of my team mates shows up and nukes the shadow's last 20%.

We steal the node.

In that time, the shadow either didn't call Inc, or their team didn't respond. Mr. Shadow was prolly a PvP hero (since they didn't CC me and call) and although they feel they were "skilled" they lacked the most important skill in PvP: Team work.

Moral of the Story. No matter how skilled you think you are, you're nothing without a team.

[...] 'hey I just met you and this is crazy, but I have 3 inc snow, so come help maybe' [...]

I laughed far more than I probably should have at this. Thank you for that.

first off, gear is available to everyone. if you prepare for PvP while leveling you can get almost 50% of your partisan gear right off the bat.

 

and what does that have *anything* to do with what i just posted? i am not, havent anywhere in this thread denied that those advantages exist for premade groups. but guess what? they are available to everyone...... so form your own group if you think its so unfair..

It has to do with what you said because the entire match making argument premises that your win rate has anything to do with your skill. I said you're substituting the benefits of group play and calling it your own level of talent.

It has to do with what you said because the entire match making argument premises that your win rate has anything to do with your skill. I said you're substituting the benefits of group play and calling it your own level of talent.

thats actually not what im saying at all..... win rate would be a terrible way to structure matchmaking in regs because 1 bad player can potentially lose the game for 7 good ones.

i wrote a quick and not-so-elegant matchmaking algorithm a while back, that rates you on your personal performance in the warzone. so even if you lost, you could technically still have a chance to increase your rating. so you *would* be rated solely on your individual skill level, and that rating would be used to match you against players with similar skill levels.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=593335

and for some it reason it seems that you, and others in this thread, believe that if you strip away a players voip, their group, possibly their gear, and whatever else you consider to be an advantage that premades have over pugs, that they would suddenly be on even or fair terms with everyone else. that is simply an incorrect assumption.

there are wildly varying skill levels in this game. and skill has a much greater impact than any of the advantages that you can imagine.

you can give a player voip, a very good group comp, fully min/maxd conq gear, but if that person doesnt understand the fundamentals of their class, how to maximize their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses, or how to properly accomplish warzone objectives, they will lose to players with higher skill levels (whether those players pug'd or were their own premade).

its shocking the number of players that dont understand the basics of this game.

This is what ruins warzones btw:

 

Playing Hypergate, teams are about tied. I'm queue'd as solo.

 

After a death, I opt to respawn and head for their node. It appears unguarded, which means there's at least a stealthed guard. No other option I break stealth and try for the node.

 

Instead of CC'ing and calling for help, the Shadow attacks me. We enter a duel over the node and it's pretty close, but I can tell the shadow's got the advantage on me. They're (the player) just better at 1 vs 1. The fight has dragged on a good 20-30 seconds and just as I'm about die, one of my team mates shows up and nukes the shadow's last 20%.

 

We steal the node.

 

In that time, the shadow either didn't call Inc, or their team didn't respond. Mr. Shadow was prolly a PvP hero (since they didn't CC me and call) and although they feel they were "skilled" they lacked the most important skill in PvP: Team work.

 

Moral of the Story. No matter how skilled you think you are, you're nothing without a team.

You know, I have read several of your posts and you really seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I like how you explain your point of view through experience and logic, and that goes a long way to getting your point across.

I agree with what you're saying. Working together as a team is ideal. And that Shadow you faught was probably a good duelist and thought he had the situation under control, and probably would've perpetuated that ideology had your team mate not come by to obliterate him.

But let's say Padawan Johnny McNewbPants joins a warzone because he liked playing BGs in WoW and so here he is. He's not stupid, but he also doesn't understand SWTOR's unqiue experience. The fundamentals are the same, but he doesn't know anyone.

Our young padawan joins the group and it has no healers, and the people seem genuinely closed off. No one responds to his "Hi" .. no one really bothers to come up with a plan. So the match starts and he begins to explore the match himself, hoping to be an asset, hoping to enjoy some PVP in SWTOR ...

When suddenly he is nuked by a premade team of players who have their victory planned before they even queued.

Padawan McNewbPants is discouraged, utterly. The sheer magnitude of his defeat - the absolution and definition he was smited with is so cognitive - so utter - that he now feels hopelessly inadequate.

And what about that premade team? They went into a Warzone and dominated it with cold efficency. And now they're out of the warzone. Maybe they had fun. But eventually they will long for a the true challenge of a good pvp fight. I absolutely love games where it's close. Even if I lost, I would shake every single one of the opposing team's hands because we had a good game. It wasn't dominated by one side, that ultimately stops being fun for everyone.

But in an alternate reality where Padawan McNewbPants joined a match-made group with proportionate roles and experience (possibly from valor? I don't know) and now he see's how his team can strive. If he's smart, he'll see that the healers need protecting and in exchange, heal him.

I really agree with some of the other posts here too in terms of intelligence. A premade group of idiots is still a group of idiots. A random group of intelligent people who think and work well with others is probably going to be successful against their opposition.

I think at the end of the match, you see the winners as the group of more skilled and more intelligent people, as a whole. Exceptions apply, but that's ultimately what I believe.

Edit: So as to touch on your final point about skill, I think skill has its place in any fight. A team of cattle, grazing across the Warzone will be defeated by the fewer, more intelligent group trying to complete objectives.

If a team is full of intelligent people, but those intelligent people aren't very good at the game (somehow, that seems unlikely to me.. if they're intelligent they will learn quickly) - if they storm mid but can't hold their own in a fight, their team of 8 will lose to the opposing team of 6. Opposing team will capture mid and take grass or snow, and the skill-less team will be left riding speeders back to their doom.

Just my opinion.

I laughed far more than I probably should have at this. Thank you for that.

I would love to take credit for that, but I didn't think of it, and I can't remember who, so didn't do 'quote'.

You know, I have read several of your posts and you really seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I like how you explain your point of view through experience and logic, and that goes a long way to getting your point across.

 

I agree with what you're saying. Working together as a team is ideal. And that Shadow you faught was probably a good duelist and thought he had the situation under control, and probably would've perpetuated that ideology had your team mate not come by to obliterate him.

 

But let's say Padawan Johnny McNewbPants joins a warzone... *snip*

Considering the post you quoted, I'm not sure exactly sure what is in response to what but I myself believe that:

1.) Higher skilled players vs. Lower skilled players is/can cause a problem in game population. Whether right or wrong, no one likes to lose and most/many blame their enemies. Be that as it may, as is the current regular warzone situation isn't healthy (though I feel many greatly over state it's current level/effects).

2.) Any solution must benefit the largest amount of players and the largest diversity of "player types."

3.) To that extent, I do feel the best solution is some kind of matchmaking on some criteria. If others want to argue it's based on queue-type (ie, matchmaker will try to match group to group, pug to pug), skill level, valor, win rates, etc... that's up to them, I'm not sure the best criteria.

4.) My final point is that players must also take it upon themselves to get better. I do feel MMO's (and society to a degree) have done a lot to strip away player responsibility and cater to as many people as they can. Unfortunately, this gives rise to popular divisions of content and makes many players feel they should only have to do X and still stand toe to toe with players who do X, Y, and Z.

It seems at least in point 1, 2, and 3 you are in agreement, but I'll wait for confirmation.

Coordination - it's all about brain, I've seen full pug groups outcoordinating 2 pre mades and winning by far...

if all 8 pugs have brain, they will use their class to their advantage for group, not for their epeen.

 

gear - not an issue anymore

 

composition - well, yeah, here is one point for premade , some classes combined can give nice results, but I've beein in games won with 5 healers, and won with no healing at all.

Won a game full of sins+sorcs against smashers...

 

Biggest advantage of premade is less stupid in their team...

It's not about classes any more, it's quite balanced rock-paper-scizzors-lizzard-spock (how are merc/commandos now?), it's not about gear, not about coordination (after 1,5 year most peopel should already know what to do in each warzone and if they don't , there are plenty of guides).

it's all about who's got less stupid in their team = win.

 

Strong premades lost cause their node guardian was stupid.

 

you can't ban for being stupid (otherwise I would be banned ages ago )

I agree with most of this except the gear is not an issue part.

Gear will always be an issue and now, thanks to bolster, it is more convoluted than ever about what is needed to be competitive in PvP.