This entire topic and thread -- what I've read -- can be summarized in these 2 sentences:

 

For whatever reason, a large percentage of people will not take part in competition unless they know they will win. Seems contrary to the point of competing, but some just need a prop for their inflated egos I suppose.

 

And when one accepts that's all this topic is really about... the debate is over.

 

...

Still the #1 problem affecting pvp games right now....

 

It's not faction specific. Basically the "Queue Solo" button is matching solo's to a premade team. The solo player is relegated to being fodder for group medal farmers.

I agree that PvP for many players is frustrating as a fresh 50... and a change would be good. I just don't think this change is the right one.

 

I stand by my idea of a recruit bracket. While it would also slow down queue times I think THAT idea would be worth it and promote a less frustrating way for players to get geared. This idea simply promotes non-competitive game play and further dumbs down PvP and gives players no incentive to improve, and simply let's them marinate in their badness.

 

TL;DR: I want ideas that will promote competition and I also agree that PvP for a below average fresh 50 is not appealing. THIS idea is not a good choice but a change that better promotes fresh 50 PvP is.

 

I forgot to add for my idea to work is what you suggest, cross server queue's. Since my solution will only work over a long term, cross-server queue's will provide more competitive teams to face each other that would happen sooner. The best part about competition is bragging rights and people trying to take that #1 spot. Cross server queue's will help maintain the high caliber players, while another bracket for new players would bring in more blood, which hopefully will form more bonds(teams) to move on to the next level.

Sorry,

 

But to break it down mostly depends on a few factors:

 

- WZ Population: On Krath my first server, because it was so small. Premades DID kill our server. On Harbinger Premades exist but a majority of people PuG so its pretty good there.

 

- PuG Stupidity: The BIGGEST reason why people Premade isnt because they want to pwn people, its because they dont want to play with *******. If you havent been asked to join a premade then you might be one of them!

 

- Fun factor: Right now, too many PuGs are into DMing and not in objectives. Because hitting random **** is fun. Which I dont get because thats like hitting a training dummy really. But hey "whatever floats your boat!".

 

=============================================

 

The reality is Premades ARENT killing the game, you know whats killing the game, it's IDIOTS NOT DOING OBJECTIVES WZ REPEATEDLY. They're like sheep and not use their brain to work out where to go, the follow blindly to do random ****.

 

No communication even, its like talking to a brick wall when asking them to call incs. Maybe what we need is to make IDIOTS not do STUPID **** REPEATEDLY. If BW can figure this out, this game would be the best game ever!!!

 

The excuse of a premade/guild/whatever is drivel, if people are trying to do objectives and win then they can beat premades/guild/whatever (not easy but can be done).

 

Its when idiots have this fallacy of how OP a faction/class/player/premade that is whats making this game stupid.

 

NOTE: Being BAD and IMPROVING is fine. Being BAD and repeating it ad nauseum is not. You can start bad, I did, but you should be improving and trying to help your team rather than for yourself and stroke your epeen to top some charts you will never get.

 

Totally agree with you Zhaker, let Pre-mades happen, they can and are beaten by regular queuing up groups, if that group communicates together and works on the objectives, sure they can win. I pretty much refuse to group up with anyone outside my guild, unless they are a good friend, because ultimately if you group with guildies you have the communications set up which makes life a whole lot easier.

 

There are some really tough cookie pre-made groups out there that are only there to try and make a mockery of regular queued wz people. Tip for you, if you get them isolated they are no better than a regular person queued up, and thats a fact. In packs they look good, we all look good in packs, get them isolated then you see their flaws.

Well, surely by making it very unappealing for f2p players to pvp and limiting the amount they can and thus the rate at which they gain WZ comms greatly- we'll see a new influx of pvpers.

 

Also, I think we're going to get a man on Mars later this year.

Premade groups of 4 or more need their own queue. Solo folks are fodder for premade teams. It got so bad they had to split the queues in WoW and they will do the same here. It's coming so you might as well accept it now.

 

And yes, if you are using a premade in non ranked WZs, you are using the queue to rake in easy wins.

Assuming both sides (imp vs rep) are homogeneous, your chances of being matched with a premade is the same as being matched against a premade (as a solo queuer). This holds true for the larger population servers where matchmaking can be considered random, and less true on lower servers where the randomness is in question.

Been saying this from the get go Solo vs Solo ~ Group vs Group. When I hit SOLO I expect to be put up again other SOLO people not Put up agains A GROUP Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having SOLO and GROUP options if there not separate.

 

Only people that benefits from the GROUPS being put again SOLO people are the luck people that got put in the same team of the group. Which makes WZ that much less fun.

 

And no this f2p isnt gona bring in as much pvp as they think it is. seeing not single person that is f2p is gona even be able to get handle on pvp not with 5 wz a week now if it was like 3 a day or something like that then maybe.

 

Either way MAKE SOLO PEOPLE go again SOLO PEOPLE ONLY and GROUPS against GROUPS. RWZ matches are almost non existent for that matter too. but realistic for this to work cross server pvp has to happen. All know is getting throw again the same premade all day and losing repeatedly is great way to get people to say **** pvp and or this game.

Been saying this from the get go Solo vs Solo ~ Group vs Group. When I hit SOLO I expect to be put up again other SOLO people not Put up agains A GROUP Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having SOLO and GROUP options if there not separate.

 

Only people that benefits from the GROUPS being put again SOLO people are the luck people that got put in the same team of the group. Which makes WZ that much less fun.

 

And no this f2p isnt gona bring in as much pvp as they think it is. seeing not single person that is f2p is gona even be able to get handle on pvp not with 5 wz a week now if it was like 3 a day or something like that then maybe.

 

Either way MAKE SOLO PEOPLE go again SOLO PEOPLE ONLY and GROUPS against GROUPS. RWZ matches are almost non existent for that matter too. but realistic for this to work cross server pvp has to happen. All know is getting throw again the same premade all day and losing repeatedly is great way to get people to say **** pvp and or this game.

 

Couple problems:

 

Split queue's = split pools. Everyone suffers when pools go down.

 

MMO = Massive Multiplayer Game. Why discourage anything higher than basic team play?

 

How will Wz's backfill players if it's group only vs. group only? What happens when 2-3 people wanna queue up, should they intentionally gimp their team 1-2 players?

 

Why is split queue's better than proper matchmaking, which will try to match premade to premade, while remaining flexible with filling, backfilling, and eventually getitng a match started in a decent amount of time should matching teams be impossible with the current people in the queue?

 

Perhaps my all time favorite... Current system is inclusive (even if flawed). Anyone can play, but certian choices (like picking 3 of your team mates) will increase your odds to win. If Most Solo/PuG players find they lose to premades... Why is it so hard to find 3 friends?

Manag....16 players q up. 8 imps 8 pubs. 4 people are a premade 12 are puggers. 8 are sad 4 are happy. not 50/50 buddy.

 

now multiply that by a lot and you can see part of the problem considering the q system. As soon as that 16 is hit the match is made and even if a lot more puggers and premades q up a second later it is too late.

 

This is why we need a matching system with mixed faction teams when needed. If it takes more than a few mins for another premade to q up then the premade gets to fight pugs. Also if 2 premades try to sync then they will likely fight eachother if matchmaking is implemented.

Manag....16 players q up. 8 imps 8 pubs. 4 people are a premade 12 are puggers. 8 are sad 4 are happy. not 50/50 buddy.

 

.

 

No, 8 are , 8 are .

 

On the flipside, suppose you happen to be on the side of the premade. Now YOU and your 7 buddies are all while the 8 on the other side are all

 

However the odds are slighty skewed against you, because as a PUGer, you will never be a part of a double premade. You can be part of a 4 man premade+3man premade+you, or a permutation with a 2 man premade. This should only make you a little bit though.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Managuense

Also if 2 premades try to sync then they will likely fight eachother if matchmaking is implemented.

 

Disreguarding faction...

 

They will -always- fight each other in a good matchmaking system. =P Unless we're lucky enough to get 2 more premades within the time frame in which the system waits for more appropriate matching.

 

^_^ really that idea sounds like heaven. Past few days imps on my server have actually been running in premades instead of the usual PuG teams... the games are fantastic and fun. Even got beat so bad in voidstar (gosh darn you Jobin! *shakes first) I had to congratulate the other team.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

I agree, it's not a matter of separating them; just balance the Matchmaking system. I don't mind waiting an extra minute or two if the match-ups are better.

Give a premade team a max of 3 minutes before it sends a pug up against them. Meanwhile the pugs have 3 minutes of freedom to form their own, or if they're lucky their faction will field a premade to go against the one waiting.

 

Fix the gear gap while you're at it; have the system match up with people of similar gear levels (50pvp), or game levels (1-49pvp).

Every minute that ticks by expands the gap you may end up playing with. A recruits 1st minute will be only recruits, 2nd minute will mix in some battlemaster, 3rd minute mix upto warhero.

Been saying this from the get go Solo vs Solo ~ Group vs Group. When I hit SOLO I expect to be put up again other SOLO people not Put up agains A GROUP Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having SOLO and GROUP options if there not separate.

 

Only people that benefits from the GROUPS being put again SOLO people are the luck people that got put in the same team of the group. Which makes WZ that much less fun.

 

And no this f2p isnt gona bring in as much pvp as they think it is. seeing not single person that is f2p is gona even be able to get handle on pvp not with 5 wz a week now if it was like 3 a day or something like that then maybe.

 

Either way MAKE SOLO PEOPLE go again SOLO PEOPLE ONLY and GROUPS against GROUPS. RWZ matches are almost non existent for that matter too. but realistic for this to work cross server pvp has to happen. All know is getting throw again the same premade all day and losing repeatedly is great way to get people to say **** pvp and or this game.

 

The thing is those Pre-Made teams can be beaten,lol. Personally I relish the chance to go up against them, I could not care less who they are, what they are, just to get them isolated and mash them 1 on 1 is a great feeling knowing that they are in reality no better when they are isolated and it proves that those Pre-Mades such as Infinite Darkness are flawed when they are isolated, sure they are good and do great damage, but many of us have proved once they are isolated or not in their Pre-Mades they are no better and for now that is the mentality people I feel should take, and not be put off by PVP because of Pre-Mades. I say toughen up a bit, get in their face, in their face they do not expect, and it shows their flaws and I can assure you profoundly annoys them if you can match them man for man . Anyone can look awesome in a great team, we all know this, including those Pre-Mades, and ye I have been in Pre-mades but have also gone up against some major resistance from regular queuing up solo people who are not to be trifled with.

 

Maybe try getting a few in your guild to group up, this also helps those queuing up solo. Again Pre-Mades can and are beaten more times than you think.

Edited November 16, 2012 by FatEdd

If Most Solo/PuG players find they lose to premades... Why is it so hard to find 3 friends?

 

Good reasons for pugging have been posted. You cannot force people to group up.

 

And if the queues are not seperated you will likely lose a lot pugs anyway.

Adding an in-game voice communication system to the ops group could easily fix a lot of the frustration about lack of communication and cancel the biggest advantage of premades over PUGs. Without macros, sometimes even good players don't have time to type out a message that may or may not be read by others in time to respond. A simple "help west 3 here" can be spoken while frantically popping defensive cooldowns...

A voice add to the game would be nice, but it doenst help against Powerhealers. Powerhealers are the biggest unbalance and same time biggest advantage a premade team has.

A voice add to the game would be nice, but it doenst help against Powerhealers. Powerhealers are the biggest unbalance and same time biggest advantage a premade team has.

 

not really. super dps 4 man pre made is fatal too.

basicly 4 competent players can win match, even if not premaded, just good.

A voice add to the game would be nice, but it doenst help against Powerhealers. Powerhealers are the biggest unbalance and same time biggest advantage a premade team has.

 

I hope no in-game voice is coming. Could easily evolve into smack talk

Good reasons for pugging have been posted. You cannot force people to group up.

 

And if the queues are not seperated you will likely lose a lot pugs anyway.

 

Ah, but no one is forcing a PuG/Solo-centric player to group. You still don't seem to understand... the current system allows Solo or Grouping up to 4 players. Essentially, Any one can play.

 

The same doesn't hold true for winning. If you see some one doing something that makes them win, why wouldn't you do the same? Is it truely unreasonable to expect players to try and get better?

 

Some of the greatest tricks and strategies I use have been learned from losing to them. We're not born with the knowledge that CC break should be saved if just mezzed by a stealther. It took me one time of being mezz capped from an early CC break to learn that. Like wise, it took me once of being pulled/mezzed on a firepit to learn I should do that on my Sin. Instead of crying how cheap it is to use firepits, I learned from smarter opponents and got better.

 

So why shouldn't the same hold true for grouping? I -can- break CC whenever I want, but I know I should wait. I -can- ignore the terrain and not use firepits, but I should use them. I -can- decide not to group up, but I should do so to increase my chances of winning. Simple right?

 

 

 

PS. "I don't wanna be forced to group" is still not a good answer for "Why is it so hard to find some friends?" but thank you for atleast trying to answer that one.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

As someone who primarily queues up solo unless my friend who got me into the game is on, can I just say I find Doomsdaycomes posts to be reasonable and correct?

 

Unfortunately, as often in life, it seems that being right is not enough, people want to get something for nothing (why should I work for it, I deserve it, give it to me for free. That guy over there didn't really work for it, it was handed to him by his friends).

 

I never thought I'd post this in an internet forum as it goes against my idea of basic politeness but my God! QQ more please.

I think you're (all/mostly) still conflating "grouping" vs. "elite groups." anybody can and do group. that doesn't turn a WZ into a rofl stompfest. now, when the 4 best players are in a group...well...then things get messy. as a general rule, the best players group up with the best players. then they trounce everyone they face.

 

I'm not saying police this. but I do think that's the *real* issue here. at some point you just have to police yourselves. and with the current state of dead rated Qs, I say screw it. make two even teams and have at it in rated.

 

yes, solo only and 1-4 queues would also address the issue (or at least make the stacking a random occurrence), I I wouldn't care if such a thing existed. in fact, I don't see how/why anyone would care unless s/he has serious self image/inferiority issues. solos could still queue for the 1-4. grps couldn't for the solo only.

 

...but that isn't going to happen. and if it does, I'm confident it would be glitched for -12 months. L2P isn't an option. if you were better you'd be better. not everyone is elite. that's why it's called "elite" and not "ordinary." if you want balanced teams, go "exploit" rated. it's one hell of an ironic twist.

Essentially, Any one can play.

 

The same goes for seperate queues. Nobody says premades can't play ... other premades.

 

And I am not gonna relist several reasons for not wanting to group up. You cn either accept that some people pug or not. Makes no difference to me.

 

Anyways the result will be the same: No seperation -> puggers will likely quit PVP.

The same goes for seperate queues. Nobody says premades can't play ... other premades.

 

And I am not gonna relist several reasons for not wanting to group up. You cn either accept that some people pug or not. Makes no difference to me.

 

Anyways the result will be the same: No seperation -> puggers will likely quit PVP.

 

Let's seperate blacks and whites. No one says Blacks -can't- play... with other blacks.

 

Please read the above statement in the most ignorant accent you can do.

 

(Also, you won't relist them because... there aren't any good reasons to be a 24/7 PuG.)

The same goes for seperate queues. Nobody says premades can't play ... other premades.

 

And I am not gonna relist several reasons for not wanting to group up. You cn either accept that some people pug or not. Makes no difference to me.

 

Anyways the result will be the same: No seperation -> puggers will likely quit PVP.

 

Let's be honest here, this isn't that other game. We don't have millions of people playing. If everyone had their way, no warzone would ever pop. This is what your options would look like:

 

Solo Recruit Queue

1-4 Group Recruit Queue

Ranked Recruit Queue

Solo Battlemaster Queue

1-4 Group Battlemaster Queue

Ranked Battlemaster Queue

Solo Augmented Battlemaster Queue

 

etc, etc, etc. We don't have the people to support spreading out the queues to meet everyone's needs. I'm not saying you are calling for all of these, but people are calling for each setup and if we meet your desire for solo queue, why shouldn't we break it out by gear for those people as well? Or start offering warzone queuing by map?

 

People PUG for many reasons, none of which is that they don't have the OPTION to queue as a group. I think you need to accept that some people PUG and some group. Ultimately your desire to not face groups in warzones is trumped by everyone's desire to have queues pop at a reasonable level. If things change with population due to F2P then perhaps this may be a viable option.