Added the following, which was posted on my blog a few days ago:

 

 

UPDATE (2012/01/29): to clarify why mitigation matters and how it stacks, consider the following:

Talents such as Power Armor are not affected by diminishing returns, and mitigation becomes more valuable the more you have.

 

Without points in the two 2% mitigation talents, my mitigation against Energy and Kinetic attacks is 45.5% from Armor and the tanking stance, so I suffer 54.5 points of damage out of every 100.

 

With Iron Fist, the mitigation increases to 49.5%, so I suffer 50.5 points of damage out of every 100.

 

Which means that a non-IF tank spec is going to take 7.9% (4 / 50.5) more damage than an IF build. The difference is significant and very noticeable in PVP.

 

By the same token, the damage that a non-IF spec takes from Elemental and Internal damage compared to an IF spec is > 4%.

 

I.e. non-IF in tank stance has 5% mitigation against those damage types, and IF has 9%. So 95 damage taken vs 91 damage taken, or an increase of 4.4%.

 

When you factor in the +10% mitigation buff from Sages/Sorcs (I think it’s theirs), the gap between non-IF and IF tank specs widens to 4.9% (4 / 81).

 

And the above percentages again increase when you factor in the 4% damage debuff we apply to opponents.

if you were going to level with this spec in mind which tree would you focus on first?

armor is in the 2nd tree. 2% mitigation is in the 4th tree. for your spec, isn't the real argument:

 

rebraced armor vs. supercharged ion cell & smoke grenade?

 

easy choice, especially over smoke bomb.

Edited February 4, 2012 by ururururu

if you were going to level with this spec in mind which tree would you focus on first?

 

Tank tree to 21 (charge), after that it's up to you.

armor is in the 2nd tree. 2% mitigation is in the 4th tree. for your spec, isn't the real argument:

 

rebraced armor vs. supercharged ion cell & smoke grenade?

 

easy choice, especially over smoke bomb.

 

You and I have already discussed this at length earlier in this thread. If you prefer the Armor talent over the other 2, take it.

Holy Crap. This wouldn't be the same Taugrim from the WAR forums, would it?

Holy Crap. This wouldn't be the same Taugrim from the WAR forums, would it?

 

Yessir.

Yessir.

 

:sy_title::sy_title:

 

That's awesome. I have you to thank for all the RIFT advice as well.

 

To anyone reading this: Taugrim had some of the best class discussion on the Warhammer forums. Take his advice, you will not regret it. His advice has helped me spec out numerous classes in several MMO's

 

(No, he doesn't know me, we're not friends, he's not paying me to shout his praises:)

 

Google him and check out his blog. Not posting it here as I'm not sure what the forum rules are on off-site references, but it's full of awesome info

 

Thanks, Taugrim! Now, I'm going to go read your BH guide.

This is very similiar to the spec i use. I run with a 24/15/2. Full battlemaster, supercommando with subbed DPS mods. I fully forgo shield, due to the subpar mitigation received in pvp, instead using a power generator in my OH.

 

There's a nice bonus of having a decent pve tanking set using the recycled tanking mods from the supercommando set. If a player decides to go that route.

 

I have always enjoyed building effective hybrid specs in MMO's

 

Interestingly enough i also use a 4/6/31 as my dps spec. Went the controversial route of using the eliminator set for the HIB crit chance set bonus. This being my secondary set i only have about 1/3rd battlemaster gear collected. The rest is champion.

This spec is alot of fun when the RNG gods smile on you. Having 3 attacks totalling 10k dmg, landing in the span of a GCD is absolutely amazing. In addition to being very "squishy", this spec is horrendous at ammo conservation.

This is very similiar to the spec i use. I run with a 24/15/2. Full battlemaster, supercommando with subbed DPS mods. I fully forgo shield, due to the subpar mitigation received in pvp, instead using a power generator in my OH.

 

The Shield offhand is the only tank piece I use. I run with the Combat Tech set for the set bonuses, esp the +15% Crit Chance for Stockstrike.

 

But gearing as you did, SC with subbed DPS mods, is another valid approach.

 

Interestingly enough i also use a 4/6/31 as my dps spec. Went the controversial route of using the eliminator set for the HIB crit chance set bonus.

 

For 4/6/31, given the high usage and damage from High Impact Bolt, Eliminator is the way to go for the 4-pc set bonus +15% Crit Chance to HIB, even though the 2-pc bonus is wasted.

 

Interestingly enough i also use a 4/6/31 as my dps spec.

 

This spec is alot of fun when the RNG gods smile on you. Having 3 attacks totalling 10k dmg, landing in the span of a GCD is absolutely amazing. In addition to being very "squishy", this spec is horrendous at ammo conservation.

 

Agree on all points.

 

4/6/31 has awesome damage, but it is squishy and can chew through Ammo due to the target-switching nature of PVP and 3-Ammo cost for Incendiary Round.

One issue i am having with the gear options BW gives us, the extremely large amount of accuracy on every DPS battlemaster mod/enhancement. For a pvp tanking spec, i am currently trying subbing in some of the champion glove crit/surge mods in place of the the higher item level, battlemaster accuracy mods. I think substituting the effective DPS statistics will be worth the minute loss of End/Aim.

How is this spec for 1v1 world pvp? can it kill any class in 1v1? or is it better for wz?

Hi Taug, Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your vids and your well thought out information on this class, I was running a spec very simular to iron fist before you came out with this but the few small changes you made over mine have still made a difference

Keep up the good work bro!

The reason I made the spec is that there are a lot of shield specs. I happen to like Yojack's shield spec best. There aren't a lot of non-shield specs. I don't like the 1/22/18 because I don't like Gut. Also, a couple of the ops guilds that I run with have plenty of tanks, so I have to be able to switch to dps. None of these shield spec builds offers acceptable (enrage timer) pve dps.

As far as tanking, I've tanked hardmode ops in this using crafted pve gear.

 

I do miss Storm, primarily in Huttball, and I did like the +10% shield talent. This spec does have lower survivability, but on my server we have dozens of battlemaster sith (thx for the ilum fail, Bioware!) and the sorcs just cut right through my shield spec defensive dude no matter what I did. I have 2 full suits of champ.

 

Thanks for posting the video I'm looking forward to watching it.

Ironfist is much like the 23/0/18 Shadow hybrid Tank Spec., you can take and still do a ******** of kinetic damage and due to the nature of ion cell deal a good ammount of damage with all of your shots while you recharge your cells.

 

It's the best 1 on 1 Spec i've found so far on the Vanguard for PvP.

Can u beat Any class with this spec? Assuming same skill-gear

Don't like the spec. Shield cycled is useless, as is Defensive measures. I would take the extra armor and absorb from rebraced armor and Ceramic plating. Static field and smoke grenade equally useless. Blaster Augs is a must if you go second tier tactics. Tactical tools is bunk, rather have more end.

One issue i am having with the gear options BW gives us, the extremely large amount of accuracy on every DPS battlemaster mod/enhancement. For a pvp tanking spec, i am currently trying subbing in some of the champion glove crit/surge mods in place of the the higher item level, battlemaster accuracy mods. I think substituting the effective DPS statistics will be worth the minute loss of End/Aim.

 

That approach makes sense.

 

How is this spec for 1v1 world pvp? can it kill any class in 1v1? or is it better for wz?

 

This spec does well in 1v1's against DPS or tanks. IMO assuming equal gear/skill, a healer should be able to outlast or turtle/kite a DPS or tank.

 

It works well in warzones due to its durability, Guard capability, mobility via charge, solid DPS, and CC capability.

 

Ironfist is much like the 23/0/18 Shadow hybrid Tank Spec., you can take and still do a ******** of kinetic damage and due to the nature of ion cell deal a good ammount of damage with all of your shots while you recharge your cells.

 

It's the best 1 on 1 Spec i've found so far on the Vanguard for PvP.

 

Yea, that's been my experience as well.

I apologize if you went over this already, but what was the reasoning behind not putting any points in blaster augs?

Don't like the spec.

 

It's not for everyone.

 

That being said, your comments indicate that you may have some misconceptions about a few key mechanics around Armor and Shield. I'll get to that later.

 

Shield cycled is useless, as is Defensive measures.

 

Fine re: Shield Cycler.

 

The root effect on our pull and stealth detect both rock IMO in PVP.

 

If you don't value roots, then the talent will seem valueless to you. I've found them invaluable for preventing runners, peeling for a node cap, pulling opponents into green/red pits, etc.

 

Btw fellow Vanguards: one clever thing you can do with the root effect, if your charge is on cooldown, is use your pull to root a Resolve-immune target.

 

I would take the extra armor and absorb from rebraced armor and Ceramic plating. Static field and smoke grenade equally useless.

 

Fine re: Smoke Grenade, given it's situational.

 

The 4% damage debuff is a great talent.

 

It many situations it provides more mitigation than Rebraced Armor, given that Armor only works against 2 of the 4 damage types where it provides a low single-digit increase in mitigation.

 

Read this to understand the mechanics of Rebraced Armor:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/27/iron-fist-25-14-2-pvp-tank-spec-for-swtor-powertech-vanguard/#comment-7211

 

The absorption talent is weak in PVP as I've documented in detail elsewhere:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

 

Blaster Augs is a must if you go second tier tactics. Tactical tools is bunk, rather have more end.

 

Blaster Augs is a trap for players running the tanking stance. 8% of a modest damage ability is not worth the point.

 

You don't seem to value pulls. Having a shorter-cooldown pull has been incredible for skirmish PVP and thinning out opponents to break them in World PVP. And it's amazing in Huttball.

Edited February 5, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

It's not for everyone.

 

That being said, your comments indicate that you may have some misconceptions about a few key mechanics around Armor and Shield. I'll get to that later.

 

 

 

Fine re: Shield Cycler.

 

The root effect on our pull and stealth detect both rock IMO in PVP.

 

If you don't value roots, then the talent will seem valueless to you. I've found them invaluable for preventing runners, peeling for a node cap, pulling opponents into green/red pits, etc.

 

Btw fellow Vanguards: one clever thing you can do with the root effect, if your charge is on cooldown, is use your pull to root a Resolve-immune target.

 

I honestly have never had much of an issue with this, once in a while a person who is oddly enough immune to all CC cept roots or anything a sorc does, gets away and scores, but its very rare. Usually when I lose at cuntball its because they other team has a 4 man working well together and my PUG is just garbage, so having a root on my pull isnt that important to me.

 

 

Fine re: Smoke Grenade, given it's situational.

 

The 4% damage debuff is a great talent.

 

It many situations it provides more mitigation than Rebraced Armor, given that Armor only works against 2 of the 4 damage types where it provides a low single-digit increase in mitigation.

 

Read this to understand the mechanics of Rebraced Armor:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/27/iron-fist-25-14-2-pvp-tank-spec-for-swtor-powertech-vanguard/#comment-7211

 

The absorption talent is weak in PVP as I've documented in detail elsewhere:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

 

Some key high damage abilities are white damage, IE our HIB, and Snipers big hits are both mitigated by the talents. 4% is nice, I may try it out, but I am more of something working all of the time, rather than situation something working situationlly.

 

 

Blaster Augs is a trap for players running the tanking stance. 8% of a modest damage ability is not worth the point.

 

Considering you can get it to proc off of every stockstrike, I think having 8% more damage is beneficial. I also like it for my hammer strike, which for whatever reason procs ions proc a lot. 8% damage is 8%, add in the amazing damage you can get with improved stockstrike, and it adds up.

 

You don't seem to value pulls. Having a shorter-cooldown pull has been incredible for skirmish PVP and thinning out opponents to break them in World PVP. And it's amazing in Huttball.

 

No I love the pull mechanic, but 10 seconds off a 45 second ability doesnt really matter to me. I have never said to myself in pvp, oh man wish my harpoon was up, cause I tend to use it well.

 

This is the build I will run. I may substitute something to get the 4% damage reduction, as they may be very beneficial

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRGMboroMZMsrboZbc.1

Edited February 5, 2012 by gofortheko

I've been wanting to get a defensive capable build for some time. I usually run high assault or assault/tactics hybrid.

 

I tried this build.

 

Although I respect all that you do, Taugrim, I have so far found this build:

- lacks more offensive power than I was prepared for. In particular, the lack of refresh on HIB takes away a lot. I am used to IR as well but had already prepared myself to lose that

- consumes a lot of ammo. This obviously is tweaked the more that you play the same spec but basic ammo conservation at the moment requires me to use less abilities within a given time than I am used to. I think this is also me trying to compensate for lower offensive power

- has more survivability but the lack of offensive power means that the team is more often being overrun

- is meaningfully more range limited, which I already knew

 

I want to like the build. I really do. But I find it more "Rubber Chicken" than "Iron Fist" so far. I appreciate that some styles suit some people and also time will ultimately tell but thought I'd post a few independent early use comments from a BM geared player.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Fafryd

I've been wanting to get a defensive capable build for some time. I usually run high assault or assault/tactics hybrid.

 

I tried this build.

 

Although I respect all that you do, Taugrim, I have so far found this build:

- lacks more offensive power than I was prepared for. In particular, the lack of refresh on HIB takes away a lot. I am used to IR as well but had already prepared myself to lose that

- consumes a lot of ammo. This obviously is tweaked the more that you play the same spec but basic ammo conservation at the moment requires me to use less abilities within a given time than I am used to. I think this is also me trying to compensate for lower offensive power

- has more survivability but the lack of offensive power means that the team is more often being overrun

- is meaningfully more range limited, which I already knew

 

I want to like the build. I really do. But I find it more "Rubber Chicken" than "Iron Fist" so far. I appreciate that some styles suit some people and also time will ultimately tell but thought I'd post a few independent early use comments from a BM geared player.

 

This is a fair post, and I think whether you spec with Iron Fist or not - with 25 points in the tank tree - really depends on your target playstyle.

 

If your #1 concern is damage, then you should stick with Carolina Parakeet (21/2/18).

 

I actually find that this spec's ammo usage is no worse than the 18+ pt builds in Assault Spec, primarily because using IR on different targets in a short period of time can be brutal intensive on Ammo.

 

I have some footage I'll be uploading for videos. Killing people hasn't been a problem and even with my beefy CC spec I've had no problem consistently scoring top 3 in damage.

 

Stay tuned.

Re ammo cost, what I previously found is:

- IR is a known high ammo cost ability and I often precede its use by Reserve Powercell. HIB following IR brings back 1 energy from HFB reducing its effective cost in many circumstances;

- points in HFB and Ionic Accelerator delivers fairly attractive low cost use of HIB. Additionally, IA on two commonly used abilities resets HIB quickly (moreso than Static Shield on use and your IF build rightly does not have Battering Ram).

Edited February 6, 2012 by Fafryd

I can only say, that i like Iron Fist very Much.

 

Also thanks to the video, gave me much insight on how to play better.

 

Mainly i play with guild mates, have some dps and healers aside.

I used to play defensive because i am also Tank, also i made the mistake to get a lot of tanking pvp gear and am now slowly converting it to damage gear.

 

I think Iron Fist is good for situational and tactical gameplay. =)