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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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List of things we don't need;

1.) New races. Purely cosmetic, with no actual impact on the game.

2.) New armor models. We already have enough to be functional.

3.) New companions. Every class has every type; healer, tank, damage. Others are wasted effort.

4.) Paid server transfers. If you want to move, actually play the game and start over. Problem solved.

5.) Game events. Putting so much effort into content that is only available for a week or two? What a waste!

 

What does that leave us with? Flashpoints, Warzones, and bug fixes.

 

I fully expect to see you post in each and every one of those threads denouncing their wishes in favor of what is "more important". I want to believe that this is totally not about Bioware putting the gay in your game, and that you just want to make sure they keep their priorities in line with yours.

Now prove it.

 

]List of things we don't need;

1.) New races. Purely cosmetic, with no actual impact on the game. ---> Agree

2.) New armor models. We already have enough to be functional.---Agree again

3.) New companions. Every class has every type; healer, tank, damage. Others are wasted effort. ---I would rather get rid of some companions like Skadge myself

4.) Paid server transfers. If you want to move, actually play the game and start over. Problem solved.--- Totally agree, did it myself

5.) Game events. Putting so much effort into content that is only available for a week or two? What a waste! ---The last one was lame but I did enjoy the Rakghoul event, would have enjoyed it more had my toon not been on Taris at the same time

 

I don't agree with those who want chat bubbles and cosmetic things in the game ie HK-51 or party jawas ( I have blizz and that is all I need jawa wise). I would rather see BW fixing bugs, fixing PvP instead of just nerfing everything then overdoing it and rebuffing things, get rid of PvP cheats and hacks which effect the game, end game content. When you hit 50 the game becomes boring after you have done EV ect. These are things I feel need more attention then SGR right now, fix the game first then bring in new stuff that won't break the game as BW has done so many times. My personal opinion regarding SGR are mute and I have written BW about it. I think the game needs fixing before more stuff is put in, that includes cosmetic stuff imo. You want to hit with me with infractions Kioma go ahead. I have not said keep it out of game, I simply said I think there are more important stuff right now to fix. However if you feel the need to report me go right ahead, I really don't care.

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I've only recently started perusing this thread as it always seemed a bit daunting, with several incarnations and hundreds of comments. But boy, does my hat go off to you guys who continually come in here and defend this concept to all the over-privileged, basement-dwelling troglodytes who think they know what Bioware should or should not prioritize (it's not important to ME, therefore it is not important AT ALL. ME ME MEEE *vomit*).

 

That you have the patience and mental disposition is just awe-inspiring.

 

I took some months off. :) I have to pace myself.

 

I am going to try to gather together the various points we've had clarified, and questions still outstanding, because we do get new readers and posters all the time, and this too often turns into a thread about the thread itself, and it's hard to sift through it all for the salient facts. Jousting with trolls should be a distant third. I do try to reply topically to those who are reasonably civil, or raise points that have been answered because again it can be hard to catch all the discussion we've already covered.

 

I do beat this drum a lot, because it is important to me, especially for my Gunslinger as I have gotten to know him better, and the male Smuggler story as it stands is all about flirting with the ladies, which is not his thing at all. But I am totally glad to see new faces, as people have moved on for various reasons. It helps keep the discussion alive which in turn is about keeping the subject visible, a reminder that we know what has been promised and that we're still hopeful of its inclusion. And the more voices speak up for that, the better.

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In some ways, what upsets me is that far too often companies don't actually learn from other's mistakes. This is a lot of what Blizz was like back in the early days of WoW, but it now feels like BioWare hasn't learned anything from them and are repeating a lot of the same mistakes.
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and how this salts the wound of this content not having been in from the start, has been a recurring theme here and as I believe the Community Team really does have an eye on this, I think we can hope that growing dissatisfaction is at the attention of those able to do something about it, which is all the Comm Team can do for us at this point.

 

This type of content is not in the game and I personally like the fact that same gender relationships are not in TOR in fact not in Star Wars at all. Plus this is a game (to me means for entertainment purposes only) anything that is controversial in the real world like this issue should be left out. Also in any event reguardless of BioWare leaving SGR out of TOR (Which I want them to do) or add it they will anger people no matter what final decision is made on this issue. So in the end the real question is Why should this really matter? As I stated before no matter what BioWare decides people will be angered by it no matter what side of this issue they are on. At least this is how I see it.(if I offended anyone I apologize now)

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This type of content is not in the game and I personally like the fact that same gender relationships are not in TOR in fact not in Star Wars at all. Plus this is a game (to me means for entertainment purposes only) anything that is controversial in the real world like this issue should be left out. Also in any event reguardless of BioWare leaving SGR out of TOR (Which I want them to do) or add it they will anger people no matter what final decision is made on this issue. So in the end the real question is Why should this really matter? As I stated before no matter what BioWare decides people will be angered by it no matter what side of this issue they are on. At least this is how I see it.(if I offended anyone I apologize now)

 

Just as a point...while homosexuality is not depicted in the movies or the Clone Wars, it is in the greater universe and has shown up in a few of the books.

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I'm sad now :(

 

No one noticed my ultimate argument attack there.....

 

All Hutts are hermaphrodites, thus all Hutts are homosexual.

 

Stupid humans thinking in binary all the time *grumbles*

 

Hm...I wonder if they would ever consider adding an hermaphroditic race....

Edited by Joushigun
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I'm sad now :(

 

No one noticed my ultimate argument attack there.....

 

All Hutts are hermaphrodites, thus all Hutts are homosexual.

 

Weren't there already problems with the Hutts? Something about people having issues with the types of stereos in the Clone Wars CGI movie. :confused:

Edited by losdia
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There is also something to consider here.

 

Ok, I've been playing video games off and on since I had an Atari 2600.

 

*high five* I used to have some silly SW game that was basically two targeting dots flying through space shooting at....something. Somehow I thought that was fun.

 

Honestly I feel like if we don't get some major announcement about *something* for this game in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to explode.

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Weren't there already problems with the Hutts? Something about people having issues with the types of stereos in the Clone Wars CGI movie. :confused:

 

Yes, this was Ziro the Hutt, who was voiced to sound like Truman Capote which caused a big fuss at the time about unfortunate gay stereotypes. My take on it is that if anyone in that situation were perpetrating unfortunate gay stereotypes it was Truman Capote. ;)

 

I personally take no comfort from what the hermaphroditic nature of Hutt reproduction argues for their sexuality. As much as I hate to feel like a schoolyard dodge-ball captain, I don't want them on our team. :D

 

But back to the subject at hand.

 

Folks, I think we are going to need to remember what we were told in March -- that we are unlikely to get any status updates or new information on SGRs until they are a lot closer to going in. They very much prefer to keep the focus on content that is immanent, and right now this means 1.4 and F2P. Now, the Dev Team could surprise us, but other than keeping the home fires burning here to keep interest evident and to bring new players up to speed on what we know, patience is what I advise.

 

Goodness knows, I get impatient, too. It's a damnable situation all around. But remember that a week ago we had people who were sure that this project had been abandoned with the move to F2P, and even the more optimistic were questioning whether what we had been told already still held true and whether this topic were at the attention of the developers. We have had confirmation on those points, and the community team has demonstrated they do know we are here.

 

That's not nothing. True, it doesn't give us anything new, but it's something to hang onto rather than backsliding into total uncertainty. And I think it is as much as we can reasonably hope for until some of the next big stuff -- Operation, Warzone, F2P, HK-51 etc. -- has been implemented. Given that we were told to expect this "this year", however, if we don't at least get a major status update by year's end, I think we'll be justified in expecting one.

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I really hope they'll elaborate a bit more in future content once 1.4 is out. At the very least I think the community should be aware of what's coming in the next three months at any given time.

 

Ok, I've been playing video games off and on since I had an Atari 2600.

 

Intel 8088 here, because there've always been PCs around for me. :cool:

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One of the things BW has said that I found very interesting is that there will be a much faster rate of content updates after F2P goes live. It isn't like there is anything that can speed up production that much. Other than hiring more people anyway, which we know they haven't done. That kind of implies that they have a bunch of stuff in or near QA in-house beta right now, but they're pacing its release so they don't overwhelm the QA or live teams. Which implies that if SGR is coming this year they have to have it more or less done now. If that's true than it means an announcement is just a matter of PR types deciding on timing.
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...If SGR is coming this year they have to have it more or less done now. If that's true than it means an announcement is just a matter of PR types deciding on timing.

 

I believe there to be an element of this involved, certainly. How much of one I cannot guess, but over the past month or so while I have been trying different avenues of approach to get some sort of acknowlegement of this thread I have specifically presented my inferences regarding overarching policies which restrict comment on same-gender content.

 

Those enquiries were not acknowleged, neither to confirm nor to refute them. My inference is that there are, in fact, such policies, that the community team needs to clear anything they say on the subject, and that one of the things they cannot discuss is any such policy itself. I can kinda see it, as a means of keeping a cap on controversy, and it has all the earmarks of a policy enacted regardless of how its application would appear.

 

What I did get through with was discussing the appearance of prejudicial or discriminatory treatment that arise from the silence on the subject and its quarantine without (at that point) any BioWare staff replies. From my conversations, I can completely absolve the Community Team of discriminatory motives. It therefore seems evident that yes, some PR heavies have decided to sit on this pretty hard for the time being.

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(It would appear my last post was deleted after I went to bed, so my apologies for whatever flame war my opinions apparently started.)

 

Uluain, from what you're saying, this "don't talk about SGRA's until we have combed through every tiny iota and letter that you are using to make sure it's as neutral as possible" policy seems very reminiscent of the super injunctions you can get in the UK (although I'm not sure if they're still around). For those who don't know, super injunctions prevent anyone (media, politicians, members of the general public) from talking about a certain event and they also prevent the existence of the super injunction being talked about - doing either is actually a criminal act. Obviously by their very nature super injunctions are ludicrous and do more harm than good. This "everything must be perfect" in-house policy seems to be having a very similar effect.

 

Unfortunately due to the nature of the best the Community Team will never be able to talk to us about whether or not this policy is in affect, but one can deduce that it most likely is. It's a pity that someone's attempt at doing the right thing has actually led to so much disillusionment among players about the subject.

 

(I'm off to Sainsbury's now, please let me know why this post gets deleted later. Ta.)

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I believe there to be an element of this involved, certainly. How much of one I cannot guess, but over the past month or so while I have been trying different avenues of approach to get some sort of acknowlegement of this thread I have specifically presented my inferences regarding overarching policies which restrict comment on same-gender content.

 

Those enquiries were not acknowleged, neither to confirm nor to refute them. My inference is that there are, in fact, such policies, that the community team needs to clear anything they say on the subject, and that one of the things they cannot discuss is any such policy itself. I can kinda see it, as a means of keeping a cap on controversy, and it has all the earmarks of a policy enacted regardless of how its application would appear.

 

What I did get through with was discussing the appearance of prejudicial or discriminatory treatment that arise from the silence on the subject and its quarantine without (at that point) any BioWare staff replies. From my conversations, I can completely absolve the Community Team of discriminatory motives. It therefore seems evident that yes, some PR heavies have decided to sit on this pretty hard for the time being.

 

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this already but last year I saw what EA/BW requirements were for entry level CS management and they were looking for very serious PR types. So, yeah, not that surprised they have people looking over their shoulder. I am kind of curious if they're still as strict in who they have working after the CS restructuring. To be totally honest I was kind of shocked they kept as much of the team as they did for as long as they did. The money they were offering was terrible for what they were looking for, although there was a lot of that going around at the time.

 

If you ignore all of the doomsaying that keeps coming up. If CS is saying it is still on schedule for this year, that means it has to be at least mostly done. Not "done" done, but finished with key animation and voice acting so it is mostly coding at this point done. At this point BW has to have details they could give us, but for their own reasons they don't feel they can. I still think at least part of it is concerns about the coverage of the release of SGR snowballing in the current media climate.

Edited by losdia
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At this point BW has to have details they could give us, but for their own reasons they don't feel they can. I still think at least part of it is concerns about the coverage of the release of SGR snowballing in the current media climate.

 

On another possible note, they may have decided upon feature details and, as you say, done them to the point where SGRAs could very nearly be put in, and may be putting off telling us about these details to avoid a big rush of negativity about how they're going to be implemented. Let's be clear - I don't just mean the anti-SGRA people. I don't just mean raiders and PvPers who want their features implemented first. I mean us, as well.

 

They may be avoiding a situation such as the following:

 

BW:A: "So we're putting in SGRAs in the next month, we know you've all been waiting a long time, and they'll be for the companions Jim, Wendy, Bruce, Lisa, Mark and Daria -"

 

Enraged Fan: "WHAT?? Daria's not a lesbian! No way, she couldn't be for THIS reason and THAT reason and THE OTHER reason..."

 

BW:A: "Um... She's our character."

 

Enraged Fan: "WELL OBVIOUSLY you know nothing about <sexuality> because if you did there'd be THESE tell-tale signs in place already..."

 

Other Enraged Fan: "You're not putting them in for Iktueb the Mighty? Iktueb's totally gay. There's <tiny bit of dialogue that could be taken any number of ways> that PROVES he's hot for men!"

 

BW:A: "Uh... Why did we decide to announce this, again..?"

 

My main point is that while we can point out any number of factors and groups external to the pro-SGRA folk that might be causing them consternation, we are very likely on the list of Potential Negative Backlash sources, too.

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My main point is that while we can point out any number of factors and groups external to the pro-SGRA folk that might be causing them consternation, we are very likely on the list of Potential Negative Backlash sources, too.

 

Very, very, true. I still think there is a chance that SGR might be new companions only. If that's true I don't think anybody would be happy about it.

 

Aside from that I would be surprised if they didn't have some research on potential player loses (i.e. how many people that can expect to quit if they do put in SGR) that shows enough of a loss for them to want to wait for the last minute to announce. I doubt they'll really lose that many people over it, or that it would stop them implementing it. Just that there is no point chasing away subscribers and their money while they're still depending on subscriptions.

Edited by losdia
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I see your point, Kioma, and that may be part of it. But at the most, they can only hope to delay when the eventual (pardon my Bocce) sh*tstorm will occur. No matter what they implement, there will be a flood of rage on the forums. It is a curse endemic to the MMO community, and anyone who has been involved for any time would know to expect it.

 

We do already know that not all companions will available for same-gender romance, so your example is apt. That will, I do not doubt, be a point of furious contention that will light up this thread like nothing since the bombing of Dresden. And no doubt there are other points which, regardless of the choices made, will be as contentious,

 

Perhaps, then, if we want this thread to continue to be relevant and useful, we can talk about various ways this could be implemented -- that is, about matters that are likely to still be fluid at this point of development.

 

Yesterday, someone expressed a hope, for example, that SGR content would be available through an optional cash-shop purchase, a notion that has arisen from time to time and one that must present a certain degree of temptation from a financial perspective for those concerned with SWTOR as a business.

 

But I daresay that "Pay 2 Gay" would be wildly unpopular, with many who have looked forward to SGR being so bitterly demoralized that they would leave the game without so much as a "been good to know you."

 

What else is there along this vein we could discuss? I still plan to post a summary of what we know vs. what is still unanswered, and perhaps we can sift discussion matters from that, while reminding The Powers That Be what are, to us, the most salient points of uncertainty.

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What else is there along this vein we could discuss? I still plan to post a summary of what we know vs. what is still unanswered, and perhaps we can sift discussion matters from that, while reminding The Powers That Be what are, to us, the most salient points of uncertainty.

 

Honestly, as this is the only topic the mods will allow for any discussion of same sex issues/content/potential content in TOR it is a little unreasonable to expect it not to go off topic. Especially since the official topic is "please tell us something? Pretty please? With a Cherry On Top?" It is all bound to come to some point organically eventually, maybe...

Edited by losdia
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Yes, this was Ziro the Hutt, who was voiced to sound like Truman Capote which caused a big fuss at the time about unfortunate gay stereotypes. My take on it is that if anyone in that situation were perpetrating unfortunate gay stereotypes it was Truman Capote. ;)

 

There is a comic strip I love to read called Girls With Slingshots. The author has gotten a lot of flack over the fact that her gay character seems rather stereotypical. I talked to my aunt about it because she's got a lot more experience with the gay male part of the community (in general, I have social anxiety, so I don't get out as often as I should), and we talked about how some gay men play to the stereotype.

 

So, yeah, I can totally see Capote playing up the stereotype.

 

Someone commented about content coming faster after F2P. That wouldn't surprise me. There's a couple of reasons for that. The first is that F2P is, for this scale of playership, more profitable. There is also the enormous amount of time/money that goes into setting up the initial purchase content. What I saw in the early days of WoW was this kind of breakdown early on as they focused on fixing the broken content, getting the game stabilized, and sorting things out. There was a trickle of new content there for a long time.

 

Of course, the fact that after WoTLK they just started to regress and put out very little content again...well....

 

So, yeah, once F2P comes out, there should be a lot more resources they can devote to new content. Coding takes a long time, and writing new coding, finding where it breaks other coding, and such can take longer than most of us would like to know....

 

Heck, I remember having an issue with a new template for my site and having three people working on it and it taking all of them something like four days to get this simple little template set up because it kept having interaction problems with our database. GWS has been offline for a week as they rebuild their main server after a virus attack. Computer coding can be so much harder than we see :(

 

BTW...I figured that SGR was going to show up because of the Legacy System. Right now, my Bounty Hunter is married to my Agent...both of whom are women. I just wish I could have their sisters, a pair of Sith, marry each other.

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I see your point, Kioma, and that may be part of it. But at the most, they can only hope to delay when the eventual (pardon my Bocce) sh*tstorm will occur. No matter what they implement, there will be a flood of rage on the forums. It is a curse endemic to the MMO community, and anyone who has been involved for any time would know to expect it.

 

I agree. My point, however, stands. Just because they might be expecting the storm doesn't mean they might not WANT to delay it. And, well, BW:A is already doing things that is causing an asteriskstorm, whether it's wise to do so or not.

 

But I daresay that "Pay 2 Gay" would be wildly unpopular, with many who have looked forward to SGR being so bitterly demoralized that they would leave the game without so much as a "been good to know you."

 

Listing desired features? Okay, let's do this.

 

1) As far as I'm concerned Pay2Gay is just a toggle in another form. That's unsuitable, in my opinion. Given the ESRB rating everyone playing this game should be old enough and (theoretically) mature enough to be able to simply not pick the [Flirt]s they don't want.

 

In the cases of people who legitimately have difficulty shrugging it off when an NPC of a certain gender busts a move, well, hopefully having [Flirt] options they DO wish to pursue will make it a bit easier.

 

2) I don't like the idea of a sexual preference selection both due to it being another form of toggle and because, for example, Doc will hit on anything in a skirt and that's his character. If my JK is a lesbian (she's not, she's bi) that shouldn't change his initial reaction to her. I do think there should be an option to tell him, 'Sorry, I like girls' and have him simply shrug it off and back off respectfully, and thus sexual preferences should be taken into account, but I feel it should be a firmly in-game dialogue-based act.

 

The key point there is that I think an NPC should back off respectfully, or at least gracefully, unless it runs completely counter to the NPC's character to do so (in which case the dialogue option [Force Diss] may be appropriate). And if they simply can't back down peacefully, well, I don't see any problem with losing rep with that character. A couple of make-nice gifts covers the loss anyway and I don't mind having an NPC I actively don't like (which to me is a sign of good writing) lose affection with me.

 

My (Light Side) Sith Warrior is seriously down on Quinn rep, for example. He just doesn't like the guy much.

 

3) I believe that there should definitely be SGRAs made available for at least some currently existing characters. I don't think it's fair to make us wait until 50+ to enjoy something that others can enjoy from a much lower level. To that end I also think there should be a way for existing PCs to revisit conversations (or spark equivalent new conversations) with their companions of choice. This could be good not only for SGRA-capable characters but also cases where existing romances were missed due to an unfortunate choice on the player's behalf.

 

4) I would like to see at least a few companions that are unexpectedly non-heterosexual. Simple fact is that you can't tell a person's gender preferences purely from how they act. It's not safe to assume. Most people meeting my oldest brother would assume he's straight or maybe bi. He's really not. He's gay, and he's awesome.

 

5) I would love to see equal numbers of heterosexual and non-heterosexual companions. I frankly don't think it'll happen but I'm entirely willing to be delightfully surprised.

 

6) Having thought about a previous suggestion here, I'm not in favour of killing off companions with a gender that the player finds distasteful because the thought of killing a companion just because they're gay - or just because they're heterosexual, or just because they're male, or female, or a wookiee - is really distasteful to me. I don't believe that mentality ('Nadia? Oh, I killed her because she wouldn't put out,') should be fostered or encouraged.

 

7) All [Flirt] options need to be revisited, very clearly marked and then placed in a consistently obvious place on the dialogue wheel. Possibly also a different colour, both so people won't miss a [Flirt] option and so that they can't claim they were forced into anything. As has been stated here and in other threads that currently isn't the case; there are certain points at which a male Smuggler, for example, can end up in bed with an NPC by clicking lines that aren't marked [Flirt] (or, for that matter, [WooHoo]).

 

8) All romance chains, both OGRAs and SGRAs, should have the option of leading to marriage. It shouldn't be enforced but it should be an option.

 

9) I had other points but I forgot them. Ah well, this is a fair start.

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8) All romance chains, both OGRAs and SGRAs, should have the option of leading to marriage. It shouldn't be enforced but it should be an option.

 

Likewise there should be the option to end romances at any point and be able to start them at pretty much any point. I've read of extremely creepy bugs where female characters get forced into romance situations with male companions that they've only flirted with once or never at all. Breaking off a relationship should not require you to cheat or die or whatever.

 

On the note of killing off companions, I'd like to get rid of Skadge because I personally think he's a ****. And he's not the sort of **** I can appreciate because of writing, he's just a ****. He won't leave if I ask and I don't want him on my ship. Bioware should allow us to get rid of companions, maybe not by killing them.

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On the note of killing off companions, I'd like to get rid of Skadge because I personally think he's a ****. And he's not the sort of **** I can appreciate because of writing, he's just a ****. He won't leave if I ask and I don't want him on my ship. Bioware should allow us to get rid of companions, maybe not by killing them.

 

I'm willing to bet that when I encounter Skadge (of whom I've heard nothing positive) I'll stick him on my ship and ignore him as much as possible. That's what I did with Rusk on my JK - not because I didn't like him, just because he's a sort of non-entity to me. I didn't gel with the character at all.

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I'm willing to bet that when I encounter Skadge (of whom I've heard nothing positive) I'll stick him on my ship and ignore him as much as possible. That's what I did with Rusk on my JK - not because I didn't like him, just because he's a sort of non-entity to me. I didn't gel with the character at all.

 

Quinn is redeemable because of his back story. Pierce is redeemable because he has a multifaceted personality, he just tries to only show one side. Ashara's an idiot, but she has the chance to expand out beyond the territory of her idiocy. DS Jaesa, likewise, can be made more interesting with an expanded storyline. Skadge has literally no redeeming qualities; he's like the dirt you pull from your shoe after going through a muddy, manure covered field. I would have been ecstatic to have left him on Belsavis as the Empire and Republic fought their futile claims over that hunk of rock. I see houks and I'm happy to kill them because I can imagine they're legions of Skadge.

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