P.S. that talent that lets knockback for mercs/socras heal is pretty much a given. not because its that awesome (its pretty situational, but can be awesome when used well - especially at early levels, where you don't have the "piddle puddle" yet) but because there's nothing else to take really in order to unlock next talent tier.

At least for sages/sorcs, this is just wrong. Here is the PvE heal spec that I use:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GorddRMorGhkZbc0MZoM.3

The only "optional" point I had to allocate to unlock salvation is in Humility, which because I stun things regularly, is quite useful. Everything else in the Seer tree should be required, as is the 7 points in TK, and at least 2 points in the balance tree for Will of the Jedi. You could make a case for Egress on certain fights (General Ortol, Dash'Roode HM). But the knockback heal is both unnecessary and actively harmful in the vast majority of cases in PvE.

At low levels, I could /maybe/ see taking it since your AoE healing options are pretty limited, and would be a bit more useful while soloing. But it could also be the start of a very bad habit.

16. People who don't think and listen any class, any role.... Don't blow the barrels, when CCed mob is near them, don't use aoe, when half of pack is CCed, who don't wait till the walking mob leaves the pack, or for the patrol mob to come back in Athiss bonus boss, so we don't have to fight him and guardian champion at same time.

Barrels specifically should not be touched by anyone but the tank, because the damage they cause is threat on whoever blew them up...and that threat belongs on the tank.

Which leads me to...tanks should try to position packs (pull, push, w/e) around a barrel, *then* blow it up. So many tanks fight away from the barrels, making the pull longer and harder than it has to be.

Leaving as a tank is so satisfying. You know you are dooming them to queue-hell.

Perhaps I should roll a tank for PvE only... (Coming from a commando PvP'er )

Here's another gem of an imbecile.

 

 

Met idiot on Collicoid War Games, someone died while on turret portion. Didn't understand why, then realised the moron wasn't on a turret. Instead he was in the middle healing people. Told him to get on turret, told me to shut up and that we needed heals to pass the area. I said we got auto-heals. Told me that's 'cause he was healing. I left the FP, they stayed in Q for 2 hours because I ignored him and they couldn't find a tank, despite me initiating a vote kick earlier on the fool moments before leaving.

 

Best e-malice feeling ever.

That simply means he did it pre nerf and not since (or not realised it was changed). The strat of aiming cannons through to middle and having healers stand on the 'engine' was very common back then.

Here is the patch note from 1.3

Players on plasma cannons are now healed slightly over time.

Also don't name players, this thread is too good to be taken down due to ToS violations.

As far as knockback heal goes: not needed and annoying in FPs. To die for in 16s and on NiM DG, crits for 3k+, is free, instant and no limit on people it hits.

Also don't name players, this thread is too good to be taken down due to ToS violations.

 

As far as knockback heal goes: not needed and annoying in FPs. To die for in 16s and on NiM DG, crits for 3k+, is free, instant and no limit on people it hits.

Let me clarify, I left the FP NOT because he was doing something stupid. But because he had the cheek to insist he was right despite obvious evidence he wasn't. And then to insinuate that without his crackpot healing, we wouldn't be able to complete it. Someone actually died at the very start when he pulled that stunt. I left during take 2.

Also, my bad. I named him because I truly feel he doesn't deserve any more FP queues. You can be new, and clueless and make mistakes. But insisting you're right when you're very wrong and taking an attitude on top of it all is unforgivable, and it's unforgivable because it's part of their inherent character. No amount of coaxing will change that.

About the knockback. I've not had the pleasure of doing real 16ms aside from easy-mode HM/NiM KP and EV so I can't comment, but I can definitely see your point. But at least the majority here agree that in FPs, it's a stupid thing to have/do. There is hope yet.

I am firmly against it. Great to have in PvP, but so situational that even if you spec into it. You shouldn't be using it every single cooldown you get. Especially not if it entails knocking mobs out of melee DPS range or worse yet, out of AoE diameter/range. If you truly wanted to heal, you could drop a puddle or if you wanted to AoE, use Force Storm.

 

At low levels, it doesn't even heal for anything worth a crap. 1200 is the number I gave looking at my partial 69 geared Sorc. If DPS are taking so much damage that they need a sub-1k, heck even a sub-500 hp heal. They're gonna die any way, and your tank is either dead or really bad.

 

 

.

healed for about 500ish per person on my early 30ties sage and was invaluable with certain groups when I needed a quick pick me up and yes it was enough to give me a cushion to keep them alive. people underestimate how much of a difference those few points of health can make. I also tend to like to keep people topped off as much as possible... because again, in my experience it can make a difference.

most bosses cannot be knocked back anyways, and sometimes things need to be knocked back because a lot of tanks/dps like to tunnel vision. I've also used it in OPS, most recent I can think of was Dash'roode, while moving between shielded areas, it wasn't much, but it was better than nothing. and no, i never use it for damage. I do use it more when soloing then when in groups, I'll give you that.

At least for sages/sorcs, this is just wrong. Here is the PvE heal spec that I use:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GorddRMorGhkZbc0MZoM.3

 

The only "optional" point I had to allocate to unlock salvation is in Humility, which because I stun things regularly, is quite useful. Everything else in the Seer tree should be required, as is the 7 points in TK, and at least 2 points in the balance tree for Will of the Jedi. You could make a case for Egress on certain fights (General Ortol, Dash'Roode HM). But the knockback heal is both unnecessary and actively harmful in the vast majority of cases in PvE.

 

At low levels, I could /maybe/ see taking it since your AoE healing options are pretty limited, and would be a bit more useful while soloing. But it could also be the start of a very bad habit.

see that 8% healing received? I'm not so sure about that. so it was that or the wave doing the heals, and to me that seemed like a better choice, when used carefully. a lot of things can be starts of bad habits, doesn't mean they are useless.

and at early levels you have NO AoE healing options other than your knockback. I always crack up when people claim that sorcs are primarily AoE healers. I'm sorry, but stationary piddle paddle as powerful as it is, is but one ability that often doesn't even have a chance to heal for the duration as people have to move..

now. its all personal preference in the end. I just disagree that just because you have seen this ability to be useless, it always is.

I've seen assassin/shadow tanks start with that knockback and I always wondered, why the heck do that do that? it just seems to scatter mobs all over the place, makes it harder to hold threat (in cases when they are ranged and don't come back to clamp up) and is in general annoying. so I asked a guildy who is also a sin tank. well... turns out that when used/timed properly - its a fantastic ability to GATHER the mobs together. go figure.

P.S. about colicoids. I see. I was a pretty slow leveler back then and while i did group, I never did that particular flashpoint until after the nerf. good to know that at least there's a basis to that strat.

healed for about 500ish per person on my early 30ties sage and was invaluable with certain groups when I needed a quick pick me up and yes it was enough to give me a cushion to keep them alive. people underestimate how much of a difference those few points of health can make. I also tend to like to keep people topped off as much as possible... because again, in my experience it can make a difference.

Now I never claimed it wouldn't make a difference. I was just living in my fantasy that in an ideal world with a good group(rare, but happens every now and then), that wouldn't be necessary. DPS would know to take down weakest to strongest, and tank would maintain aggro on all but the weakest of trash thereby limiting the damage DPS would take allowing healers to focus solely on the tanks.

What I am getting at though. Is that aside from a few choice scenarios. having to rely on a KB AoE for healing, though free is ludicrous. You mentioned bosses somewhere in the post, healers shouldn't even be in range of most bosses.

I've seen assassin/shadow tanks start with that knockback

That is one of my pet peeves. Again, aside from times when they are corralling enemies for the slaughter(big droid in Mandalorian Raiders gets knocked against the lift where 3 more droids spawn/pushing enemies off an edge). It is a move wholly uncalled for in 90% of flashpoints and serves only to aggravate your DPS. It is the mark of either an inexperienced player, a troll or someone who is just plain stupid. I've met people who are slow in this game, and even they don't make mistakes more than twice.

Now I never claimed it wouldn't make a difference. I was just living in my fantasy that in an ideal world with a good group(rare, but happens every now and then), that wouldn't be necessary. DPS would know to take down weakest to strongest, and tank would maintain aggro on all but the weakest of trash thereby limiting the damage DPS would take allowing healers to focus solely on the tanks.

 

What I am getting at though. Is that aside from a few choice scenarios. having to rely on a KB AoE for healing, though free is ludicrous. You mentioned bosses somewhere in the post, healers shouldn't even be in range of most bosses.

there are situations when you stack on a boss. there are situations when you are nowhere near boss OR adds, but you are stacking with ranged dps - I can drop reviv on melee, use force wave on the ranged. ability IS situational and i don't use it often (and almost never in flashpoints, most often when my group is at 97% and I want a quick cheap topoff as we're moving along - I have this thing where I want my group to be at max health as much as possible, keeps the flashpoint running faster, since the only time they have to stop to recharge then is when they mismanaged their resources), but it still seems like a better choice then just 8% more healing received. which are the 2 options you have. and you have to pick one. might as well pick a situational ability IMO.

my assumption is that even with friends, ideal situation will not happen. because I'm a human being playing with other human beings and we are all fallible. even the best players make errors sometimes. I don't have to worry about the best case scenario, only the worst.

That is one of my pet peeves. Again, aside from times when they are corralling enemies for the slaughter(big droid in Mandalorian Raiders gets knocked against the lift where 3 more droids spawn/pushing enemies off an edge). It is a move wholly uncalled for in 90% of flashpoints and serves only to aggravate your DPS. It is the mark of either an inexperienced player, a troll or someone who is just plain stupid. I've met people who are slow in this game, and even they don't make mistakes more than twice.

majority of the time I've seen it used in pugs, I was just as aggravated. but I still couldn't dismiss it out of hand so I asked and well... people are still often using it wrong, but i now know that it can be used the right way, in adition to knocking mobs of the ledges.

My main is shadow tank and I use the knockback quite often in FP's and sometimes in operations as well. I think I am decently skilled in tanking both in FP's and ops. Tanked current HM ops for both my guild and as guest for some good raiding guilds on my server. I do not think I am an idiot.

It's very situational, and admittedly can cause problems for mDPS. I won't be going into obvious like knocking enemies off the bridges etc.

Situations when it can be used:

1. Pushing enemies together, especially towards a barrel, pipe that can be broken, near the ledge where commando/gunslinger can knock them off.

2. At the start of the combat with large trash packs - to push them all into the wall = near to each other, also to get initial aggro on every single one of them to make sure they won't immediately run for the healers. I use it especially during quick runs when AOE taunt is on cooldown and sometimes even slow time is on cooldown and I cannot be sure I will aggro on all of them immediately. Also it's a cheap and easy AOE stun. If you can AOE the group down very quickly after that incoming damage is 0!!!!! I also use force stun and whirling kick on cooldown in trash fight situation for the same reason - to reduce incoming damage.

3. During large trash pack encounter when you are close to dying and enemies are melee. When I see healer is getting overwhelmed and I don't have a cooldown ready I will use knockback instead of dying - I step couple of steps back to have all enemies in front of me and do the knockback, the time they are flying away and running back helps the healer and I may be able to use it to get some healing from TkT or something similar.

4. Tiny bit of AOE damage is needed. I use the skill very often in 1st phase of HM TFB. I am tanking the tentacle and I see the add coming close. I already used slow time and force breach and the add got hit by them and I see it's close to dying. I use the knockback, which won't knock anything back of course, and it dies. If it doesn't then I proceed to step away from the tentacle using force pull to keep aggro and spaming one more series of force breach and slow time on the add. Once we lost the rDPS and we managed to get it down with the healer while I was kiting it and tanking the tentacle.

Those are typical scenarios. I wouldn't consider them scenarios that could be come up with by retarded players...

I've seen assassin/shadow tanks start with that knockback and I always wondered, why the heck do that do that? it just seems to scatter mobs all over the place, makes it harder to hold threat (in cases when they are ranged and don't come back to clamp up) and is in general annoying. so I asked a guildy who is also a sin tank. well... turns out that when used/timed properly - its a fantastic ability to GATHER the mobs together. go figure.

Speaking as someone whose first and (just about, still) main character is a Shadow Tank, that levelled all the way as tank spec from early access, this is only valid till you get Force Breach (level 12!) and after that is a completely counter-productive. And I hate running with healers that use this move (or the Commando/Mercenary version of the same). (EDIT:Corrected PT for Merc).

I met once a DPS sage using the knowback in his regular rotation. He justified it provided a healing, albeit we didn't really need extra heal and we had a working dedicated healer by the way. He stopped when being told to avoid. I don't think its regular cast is really an issue playing solo, along with a healer or even with a ranged dps, but it's too much a bother in other cases.

well... that's just... ok, I end up speccing into it as a healer because I need to put those points somewhere, to get talents I actually need, but for dps sage its not needed at all, and I mean at all :/ I mean.. i could probably see its value in solo leveling spec, but not in groups.

Speaking as someone whose first and (just about, still) main character is a Shadow Tank, that levelled all the way as tank spec from early access, this is only valid till you get Force Breach (level 12!) and after that is a completely counter-productive. And I hate running with healers that use this move (or the Commando/Powertech version of the same).

that's what I used to think, but post above explains the applications of the move. as for healer, who sometimes uses knockback in flashpoint as actual knockback, and not for healing... if I didn't have things chewing on me, I wouldn't need to use it in a first place (not saying its a tank fault specifically, but if I pull aggro as a healer, it's usually because no one else is touching those particular mobs, and no dumping guard on me won't fix it >_>). that or there are many cases where group would rather knock things off the ledge to their deaths and knockback is specifically requested.

my assumption is that even with friends, ideal situation will not happen. because I'm a human being playing with other human beings and we are all fallible. even the best players make errors sometimes. I don't have to worry about the best case scenario, only the worst.

Your assumption is wrong then. The thread title is about Group Finder, and random rolls come into play. But if you are talking about a fixed scenario, running with the people I trust and know. While they(or I) do make errors sometimes, they are easily remedied because everyone is good, flexible and alert.

All my trusted Sage/Sorc healers, while they may spec into the healing KB, they NEVER use it in flashpoints. You might see them do it occasionally in an op or very often in a WZ. But they know it causes more harm than good in an FP.

I met once a DPS sage using the knowback in his regular rotation. He justified it provided a healing, albeit we didn't really need extra heal and we had a working dedicated healer by the way. He stopped when being told to avoid. I don't think its regular cast is really an issue playing solo, along with a healer or even with a ranged dps, but it's too much a bother in other cases.

argghh... I hate assassins dps that do that knockback when I'm tanking. I sometimes would charge on that mob that's kinda alone and push him toward the rest of the pack, so when I have them all neatly packed together for both effective aoe and aggro control, bummmm ! knockback ! W T F

Ancaglon:you ment mercenary, PT doesnt have KB

Indeed I did, I'll fix that now.

that's what I used to think, but post above explains the applications of the move. as for healer, who sometimes uses knockback in flashpoint as actual knockback, and not for healing... if I didn't have things chewing on me, I wouldn't need to use it in a first place (not saying its a tank fault specifically, but if I pull aggro as a healer, it's usually because no one else is touching those particular mobs, and no dumping guard on me won't fix it >_>). that or there are many cases where group would rather knock things off the ledge to their deaths and knockback is specifically requested.

Specific knockback over ledges is one thing -- I often Force Pull mobs to me followed by a Spinning Kick, a quick turn and a Force Wave -- but running into the middle of the pack that's chewing on me and blasting them all over the place is a different thing entirely, especially when it's done with every trash pack.

And yes, there are some very specific circumstances where I will use Force Wave for threat or to clump a group together, but it's rare -- opening with force breach and slow time will work for most small packs, and if they are too far apart initially, running up and hitting the middle one with a Project, then firing off the AEs when the others close on me, works just fine.

Adds chewing on the healer usually means that (a) the tank didn't keep hitting them enough after the initial pull, and (b) the DPS are ignoring the weak mobs in favour of doing big damage rotations on the strongest. And even there, it will probably work better if you just get close enough to the tank that the AE damage being splashed around will pull it back off you.

19. Players who play Mara/Snipers and know that their DPS is formidable yet add to the burden of threat considerably by attacking first, attacking a silver/gold straggler that isn't the tank's primary focus but still is aggro-ed to the tank. And then proceed to blame the tank when aggro is inevitably lost or cannot be gained back as quickly as they would like.

20. People that use KB every chance they get. ....this was mentioned already huh?

Your assumption is wrong then. The thread title is about Group Finder, and random rolls come into play. But if you are talking about a fixed scenario, running with the people I trust and know. While they(or I) do make errors sometimes, they are easily remedied because everyone is good, flexible and alert.

 

All my trusted Sage/Sorc healers, while they may spec into the healing KB, they NEVER use it in flashpoints. You might see them do it occasionally in an op or very often in a WZ. But they know it causes more harm than good in an FP.

I wouldn't say its wrong. again, i don't have to worry about best case scenario. but I'd rather be prepared for the worst. and I have a feeling that your trusted sages/sorcs may occasionally use it in flashpoints, you just don't notice, because they time it and place it in a way that doesn't disrupt the run

 

Adds chewing on the healer usually means that (a) the tank didn't keep hitting them enough after the initial pull, and (b) the DPS are ignoring the weak mobs in favour of doing big damage rotations on the strongest. And even there, it will probably work better if you just get close enough to the tank that the AE damage being splashed around will pull it back off you.

your a) and/or b) points is what usually happens. except I don't always have the luxury of running in, because I'm too busy trying to keep the group alive, because my invincibility bubble is already on cooldown, because I don't have enough powerful instant heals to start running and keep running while hoping SOMEONE will notice that I'm being attacked, or AoE takes care of it. at least if my knockback disrupts their precious rotations, they might notice that something is not right >_> (yes, I'm occasionally that petty, but only rarely)

I have more good pugs then bad, but its still people who are not used to playing together - playing together. so..

argghh... I hate assassins dps that do that knockback when I'm tanking. I sometimes would charge on that mob that's kinda alone and push him toward the rest of the pack, so when I have them all neatly packed together for both effective aoe and aggro control, bummmm ! knockback ! W T F

While tanking, especially on my guardian I hate ... yes my guardian hates ... every single player who thinks knockbacks are kewl to use while I try to keep the mobs on me ... nothing more amusing to me than seeing my main target get 'force pushed' away from me (while I try to keep the interrupts up on him) or sages(yes sages) running into melee range and scatter the whole pack of mobs all over the place, and lucky me: as guardian I have such wonderful (mid)ranged AoE abilities .... not.

These are days I am considering to just run as dps and go on /follow.

21. People with titles like 'Historic' or 'Living Legend' that lull you into the belief that they know their role only to bring it all crashing down when they do things so stupid, you wonder how much they paid for the account.

And it seems like it's a general consensus. I was beginning to wonder if there were tanks out there that were grateful after each and every botched pull thanks to knockback. The jury is in though, and the verdict is: None whatsoever.

and I have a feeling that your trusted sages/sorcs may occasionally use it in flashpoints, you just don't notice, because they time it and place it in a way that doesn't disrupt the run

Ok I will give you that, even though tanking 75% of the time is really just synonymous with people watching. But you said it yourself, and the key phrase here is; "in a way that doesn't disrupt the run". All my complaints stem from the exact opposite of that phrase.

21. People with titles like 'Historic' or 'Living Legend' that lull you into the belief that they know their role only to bring it all crashing down when they do things so stupid, you wonder how much they paid for the account.

Actually those titles don't really have anything to with flashpoints, so you can't judge a persons perfomance by those titles, not even to judge wether or not s/he knows the class and role. Just that he has lvl'd his legacy accordingly.

You can get to legacy 50 just by lvl''ing alts and/or dailies.Yes, fp's can help, but they are not needed.

(sorry for the little detour. Otherwise enjoying this thread. )

Actually those titles don't really have anything to with flashpoints, so you can't judge a persons perfomance by those titles, not even to judge wether or not s/he knows the class and role. Just that he has lvl'd his legacy accordingly.

You can get to legacy 50 just by lvl''ing alts and/or dailies.Yes, fp's can help, but they are not needed.

 

(sorry for the little detour. Otherwise enjoying this thread. )

While you are right. I don't think I'm expecting too much of them to know that if they roll as a healer, they heal and if they roll as a DPS they DPS. While knowledge of flashpoints/ops might not be common knowledge if they've never run it before, it doesn't mean that they can also be excused from not knowing how their healing rotation works or that their DPS is severely lacking because they haven't a clue what spells to use.

The "Living Legend" I met cast Lightning Strike non-stop, it was the only thing he cast aside from Force Storm every time there was more than one mob around. At first I wasn't sure what spec he was in but saw his instant Chain Lightning proc that never got used.

Tell me you don't think he/she bought his account. If he was trolling the group, he did a fine job, since we took 2x longer to complete the flashpoint during double exp. Or maybe he was just a genius that discovered the new best build? Lightning Strike into oblivion? Might get 3000 DPS on TorParse eh? Maybe then he might become a real legend.

While you are right. I don't think I'm expecting too much of them to know that if they roll as a healer, they heal and if they roll as a DPS they DPS. While knowledge of flashpoints/ops might not be common knowledge if they've never run it before, it doesn't mean that they can also be excused from not knowing how their healing rotation works or that their DPS is severely lacking because they haven't a clue what spells to use.

 

The "Living Legend" I met cast Lightning Strike non-stop, it was the only thing he cast aside from Force Storm every time there was more than one mob around. At first I wasn't sure what spec he was in but saw his instant Chain Lightning proc that never got used.

 

Tell me you don't think he/she bought his account. If he was trolling the group, he did a fine job, since we took 2x longer to complete the flashpoint during double exp. Or maybe he was just a genius that discovered the new best build? Lightning Strike into oblivion? Might get 3000 DPS on TorParse eh? Maybe then he might become a real legend.

Maybe a bit off-topic, but on ToFN there is a warlord... Historic and all, but keyturns, clicks and doesn't interrupt. I swear, that dude must've bought that account...

I asked him why he spammed his basic attack (he was in ataru form, sent) and he said 'Do you know anything better? No? Then ****'

These are days I am considering to just run as dps and go on /follow.

Then you'll get one of those tanks who think it's sufficient to attack one mob... and who isn't capable of keeping the first boss in Mandalorian Raiders FP away from the healer even if he's not carbonized....

And who doesn't even notice that half the bosses during the second boss encounter are attacking the healer since he's got no threat built up on them...so I, the poor Op DD have to tank them...

At least our healer was very good.

If I had been the healer, I would have let the tank die for constantly letting the mobs attack me.