Hmmm, unlike many other people here, I completely see where your coming from. The Sith began as the followers of Bogan who likely only saw themselves as expanding their knowledge of the Force. And as the second tenet of the Jedi Code dictates (and the first tenet of the Je'daii Code):

 

'There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.'

 

This only seems to encourage practice and discovery of the dark side, which led to the followers of Bogan and the Force Wars. The followers of Ashla, rather than embrace the Bogan teachings rejected the knowledge and so proved their own ignorance (the irony being that only after the war did they invent the tenet about knowledge, when the war itself revolved around the rejection of it.) Yes the dark side is dangerous, and yes it leads to hate, anger and suffering at the cost of power. But to reject knowledge of it completely, and refuse to comprehend it is to be willingly ignorant and will inevitably lead to more war between Jedi and Sith as they refuse to understand and accommodate their enemy - just reject them outright. Does this not seem in contradiction with the Jedi Code? Don't forget the often ommitted fourth tenet:

 

'There is no chaos, there is harmony.'

 

How many times have the Jedi willingly embraced chaos and rejected harmony by warring against the Sith? To achieve their distorted version of peace? It seems to be that the Jedi should have never rejected Bogan in the first place, and instead attempted to accommodate it into knowledge of the Force in a non-malevolent way. A difficult task yes, but a task the Jedi should have taken on to prevent countless deaths in the future. But they didn't, instead they embraced ignorance and chaos and to me that seems hypocritical. At least the Sith are true to their code.

 

And no, it is not a coincidence that Kreia would agree with me.

There are several issues with your post.

1. The rendition of the Code you have posted was created several thousands of years after the Tython and Great schism stuff. The Code you posted was created by Odan-Urr and was much more modest (though deceptively controlling and constricting) than what the original was. The original Code seems less controlling, but as we see from the Schisms, they were controlling. Odan-Urr's Code allowed for the Jedi to study the Dark Side so long as they were able to control it. Unfortunately, Odan-Urr's Code has been taken far too literally.

Okay, so only one thing but it addresses the points you made... kinda.

Edit: Didn't see you mention the Je'daii. Anyway, the first tenet of the Je'daii Code was expanded upon by the far wiser Odan-Urr. I would advise caution when learning the way of the Je'daii, as they had a meager grasp of The Force. Turn your attention to the likes Odan-Urr and Yoda.

Edit again: I'll be discussing the Jedi Code in a future thread. Look forward to it you will

The jedi however, are hypocrits who are to afraid to take respondsabillity. They have special powers, yet they refuge to claim it and use it for the greater good. They see fit to seek knowledge and yet allow people without that knowledge to rule.

Jedi serve as guardians, not as rulers. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Oh no, you did not pick a fight about lore with Aurbere:eek:! TAKE COVER!!!!!*runs and hides in bunker*

We're all gonna die!

Jedi serve as guardians, not as rulers. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Then why does the council get involved in politics?

EDIT: the Jedi Council leads the Jedi do they not? Therefore, they rule the Jedi.

Then why does the council get involved in politics?

EDIT: the Jedi Council leads the Jedi do they not? Therefore, they rule the Jedi.

The Jedi act as advisors. They hold no authority in the Senate. If their advice is taken, then great. If not, well you know.

As to the Jedi Council. You take that out of context. The Jedi Council doesn't rule the galaxy (which is the context for said quote). Now one could say the Council rules the Jedi. Which they do. But not "rule". They govern the actions of the Jedi and all of its branches. Members of the Order are allowed some measure independance, but should they commit actions that are against the Jedi Code, action is taken. The action depends on the severity of the issue. And there are multiple Councils to deal with certain issues. The Jedi Council is not a totalitarian or tyrannical and oppressive governing body. And one member doesn't hold all of the power. In fact, the Council could be considered akin to the Senate.

Edit: another thing. Society and culture requires a governing body to set the rules and standards for its members. The Jedi Council is necessary for the Jedi Order to survive to serve the galaxy. Whatever power the Jedi Council holds is used to serve, not to rule.

You're comment display how little you know of the sith. It is only Darth Nihilus and The Sith Emperor who want tp extinguish all life in the galaxy. Nihilus because he can't control his endless hunger and The Sith Emperor because he is crazy. However, the sith themselves has no reason to destroy the galaxy, but want to shape it into the form that they see fit. Meaning that they want to change the world into what they view as a better place, and seriousy who doesn't? I mean take a character like Darth Caedus he sacrifices everything in order to bring order and peace to the galaxy. He takes the hard decsions in order to preserve the galaxy, he takes respondsabillity!

 

The jedi however, are hypocrits who are to afraid to take respondsabillity. They have special powers, yet they refuge to claim it and use it for the greater good. They see fit to seek knowledge and yet allow people without that knowledge to rule.

I don't care about Darth Caedus he is one single sith. You dismiss my ideas about the emperor and darth Nihilus, well i'll put your Darth Caedus idea aside. Let's forget one crazy emperor and one OK sith. Let's look at the whole picture.

Have sith commited mass genocide and wiped whole planets? Do they kill innocent beings on daily basis? Do they persecute other races, "inferior" to them in their eyes? I don't care how it all started, be it the jedi's fault or not, you can't excuse their murderess rampage.

I think this here is in the SWTOR codex: http://db.darthhater.com/screenshot_images/2667/screenshot_2667/#2667

No dark sided force user, sith, exiled, dark jedi or what ever u want to call them, ever comited genocide over billions of people neither they started a war on the once again so called jedi, light side force users....

I guess now it's my time to tell you learn your lore. HEre's a few links to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star

What were they thinking to use it for? well...for this I guess

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Alderaan

Then there's this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Taris

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aeten_II

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_IV

should I stop? Now tell me again how the sith have never commited mass genocide...

I guess now it's my time to tell you learn your lore. HEre's a few links to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star

What were they thinking to use it for? well...for this I guess

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Alderaan

Then there's this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Taris

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aeten_II

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_IV

should I stop? Now tell me again how the sith have never commited mass genocide...

Don't forget the current emporer in SWTOR time! He sucked all of the Force from a planet: it's beings and the planet itself, leaving it a hollow husk.

While I'm no Aurbere, I'll try my best to make a valid argument.

The Jedi

The term used to describe the Jedi (peacekeepers) can defined differently, but the main way is that they fight to restore peace. Think the first part of the word Guardians (guard). The Jedi are essentially guarding the peace, which means they are fighting to keep peace relative. The Jedi Council governs the Jedi Order, not neccesarily rules over them. The Jedi are selfless, valiant knights who try their best to maintain non-conflictual actions in the galaxy.

An example of what a Jedi should be is found in Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The Sith

The Sith are essentially Jedi with different motives. They wish to assert domination, not keep peace. But indirectly, thry are peacekeepers. By holding dominance over the galaxy, they keep the peace their way (violenty and cruelly). However, they are still deceptive, backstabbing, and sometimes vicious beings. They are an order plagued with infighting and debate. By now, the galaxy would probably be theirs if there was no infighting. The Rule of Two basically vanquished this by claiming there could only be two Sith, so that when the master is befallen by the apprentice, the apprentice would grow stronger. This is exemplified in Sidious and Vader. They held the galaxy with an iron grip until the Rebel Alliance became more organized and Luke Skywalker came into the picture. The same can be said for Darth Krayt, but it still had a bit of infighting. Krayt held the galaxy, and if he wasn't betrayed by Wyrrlok III, he would've held the galaxy in a strangle. However, after being weakened due to his ally's backstabbing, Cade Skywalker was able to defeat him.

Krayt was a successful Sith lord who was able to keep most of his forces' loyalty (save Wyrrlok, of course) and examplifies the Sith in a prime form. Cunning, deceptive, and skilled with a lightsaber, Darth Krayt was one of the better Sith to rule the galaxy

I won't even try to argue with you because honestly it will lead to nothing. Others have tried too but you have your ideas and we have ours. we gave you reasons but you did nothing to back your ideas up with. by your idea if my father slapped your father in the past you have the right to kill me, my children, my neighbor, my neighbor's neighbor in the present. I have really no idea how is that justified in you view and how that makes you a good guy. Face it Sith= bad, jedi= god in Star Wars Universe and until you bring me valid reasons on why is the other way around I won't argue with you anymore. GOOD reasons and not just "but their ancestors kicked our ancestors buts". GOOD SOLID reasons to back up your claims. We gave you ours.

i do nothing to back my ideas up? are u joking me? the one taht keeps repeating the no.sence about wiping the entire galaxy is u pal, u have given me nothing, some people have made some solid arguments yes, but u? O_O pls dont take credit for others.... and i never said said the sith were the good guys neither, did i? i said nowdays i feel more simpaty for them, than for the jedi.

and if we gona talk about "but their ancestors kicked our ancestors buts" or "my father slapped your father" then its a funny topic, since sith have slapped the jedi adn republic so so many times that it hurts telling the numbers.... only reason they have been ultimately defeated is becouse of internal strugles......

And another thing about the Hyperspace War. The Republic invaded to prevent another War. The Sith made suicide attacks to force the Republic to retreat. Then they killed themselves ritually.

 

Hmm...

 

Edit: Would you say Sidious taking over the galaxy is a good thing? What about Darth Krayt? Was Lord Kaan's actions justified? What about the Mandalore Wars? Or the Jedi Civil War? How about the Great Galactic War?

what u and the otehr people here is missing, is that i have not said Sith are the good guys, neither have i said that Jedi are nessesary the bad ones, am saying that after doing some reading i feel more close to the sith than the jedi....

Do yourself a favor and read those links yourself.

 

First Great Schism they were both at fault.

 

 

i have read them several times thats the main reason i still keep this going.... i quote from http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Great_Schism

"The Legions of Lettow initially wished to be left alone by the Jedi, but the peace would not last. The Jedi Order branded the Legions as dissenters, and both sides began to arm themselves for the conflict that had become inevitable"

from those 2 lines we can pretty much asume, that in minor or mayor degree it was the jedi the one that started the conflict.....

And another thing about the Hyperspace War. The Republic invaded to prevent another War. The Sith made suicide attacks to force the Republic to retreat. Then they killed themselves ritually.

 

yes some did made rituals to push the republic back, yes many died on those rituals, but that dont change any facts regarding the genocide the republic comited when they won the war....or are u telling me it was not genocide killing almost every sith, regardeless of if it was a child, female, male? are u just trying to tell me that : "The Republic invaded to prevent another War" is it then justified? for real ? then by the same way we can justify any bad thing the sith have done? or only the republic and the Jedi can justify their jenocide?

Do you believe they would have stayed that way?

If you start using the dark side, you start to want more. They would at least have taken sentient species as test subjects.

And I assume using the Dark Side to manipulate animals goes along with a lot of suffering for the test subjects.

 

So the Jedi tried to forbit it. The Dark Jedi didn't listen. Then the Jedi exiled them. Then the Dark Jedi started to raise an army. This sounds like the Dark Jedi actually started the war after being exiled.

its not what i belive or not, it could have stayed that way, it might have not, we will never come to know what could have hapened, since a war started....

about the second part, The Dark Jedi left the order and retreated to other worlds, they created such army, including the so called "zombies" after the war had begung, and only becouse they were outnumbered by the jedi(who were aided by the republic) even if i am wrong adn the sith did created the army first(thing that is not stated anywhere) it dosent says anywhere neither that they stroke first, does it? The jedis have the Republic backing them up, hell if i was outnumbered 1million to 1 i would also rise zombies and s.hi.t

Sith are evil,they kill,they enslave,the buld Empires,they want rule,they want power regardless if they have

to kill their own men,and they don't take NO for answer, they're violent,malevolent e.t.c.

the list just goes on.....

Hmmm, unlike many other people here, I completely see where your coming from. The Sith began as the followers of Bogan who likely only saw themselves as expanding their knowledge of the Force. And as the second tenet of the Jedi Code dictates (and the first tenet of the Je'daii Code):

 

'There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.'

 

This only seems to encourage practice and discovery of the dark side, which led to the followers of Bogan and the Force Wars. The followers of Ashla, rather than embrace the Bogan teachings rejected the knowledge and so proved their own ignorance (the irony being that only after the war did they invent the tenet about knowledge, when the war itself revolved around the rejection of it.) Yes the dark side is dangerous, and yes it leads to hate, anger and suffering at the cost of power. But to reject knowledge of it completely, and refuse to comprehend it is to be willingly ignorant and will inevitably lead to more war between Jedi and Sith as they refuse to understand and accommodate their enemy - just reject them outright. Does this not seem in contradiction with the Jedi Code? Don't forget the often ommitted fourth tenet:

 

'There is no chaos, there is harmony.'

 

How many times have the Jedi willingly embraced chaos and rejected harmony by warring against the Sith? To achieve their distorted version of peace? It seems to be that the Jedi should have never rejected Bogan in the first place, and instead attempted to accommodate it into knowledge of the Force in a non-malevolent way. A difficult task yes, but a task the Jedi should have taken on to prevent countless deaths in the future. But they didn't, instead they embraced ignorance and chaos and to me that seems hypocritical. At least the Sith are true to their code.

 

And no, it is not a coincidence that Kreia would agree with me.

exelent post m8!

Sith are evil,they kill,they enslave,the buld Empires,they want rule,they want power regardless if they have

to kill their own men,and they don't take NO for answer, they're violent,malevolent e.t.c.

the list just goes on.....

lol whooot? ok, ok, are u telling me that because "they enslave" and "they build Empires" and "are violent", are they evil then? i do agree that the sith culture can in many ways be considered evil in some regards.... but slaving and building empires has nothing to do with that, not even being violent and seeking power..... didn't almost every single country in the western hemisphere used slaves? or have u been missing some history lessons about our own world.... was Julius Caesar or Octavius Augustus evil becouse they made Rome into an Empire? are u telling me that the British empire was also evil? The Asian Dinasties were also EVIL? was Napoleon evil becouse he grew his nation into one of the more powerfull ones during his time as Emperator, was he evil becouse he started wars, becouse he wanted power, does that makes him evil??

I guess now it's my time to tell you learn your lore. HEre's a few links to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star

What were they thinking to use it for? well...for this I guess

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Alderaan

Then there's this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Taris

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aeten_II

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_IV

should I stop? Now tell me again how the sith have never commited mass genocide...

1rst, we were talkign about 3k years in the past, long before the Death Star, secondly almost all, if not all of those links are refering to things that happened during a waror a few direrent wars, for being more exaclty, my friend, ur god-like jedis comited genocide on Korriban and almost all other Sith Worlds after they won their war... so dont blind urself..... and as i said so many times yes there have been extremist in the sith during the years... u cant just ignore my links and try to make urs more relevant...

You're comment display how little you know of the sith. It is only Darth Nihilus and The Sith Emperor who want tp extinguish all life in the galaxy. Nihilus because he can't control his endless hunger and The Sith Emperor because he is crazy. However, the sith themselves has no reason to destroy the galaxy, but want to shape it into the form that they see fit. Meaning that they want to change the world into what they view as a better place, and seriousy who doesn't? I mean take a character like Darth Caedus he sacrifices everything in order to bring order and peace to the galaxy. He takes the hard decsions in order to preserve the galaxy, he takes respondsabillity!

 

The jedi however, are hypocrits who are to afraid to take respondsabillity. They have special powers, yet they refuge to claim it and use it for the greater good. They see fit to seek knowledge and yet allow people without that knowledge to rule.

another exelent post....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: as a side note omg so much going on since i went to sleep yerterday Happy new year to all...

I don't care about Darth Caedus he is one single sith. You dismiss my ideas about the emperor and darth Nihilus, well i'll put your Darth Caedus idea aside. Let's forget one crazy emperor and one OK sith. Let's look at the whole picture.

Have sith commited mass genocide and wiped whole planets? Do they kill innocent beings on daily basis? Do they persecute other races, "inferior" to them in their eyes? I don't care how it all started, be it the jedi's fault or not, you can't excuse their murderess rampage.

I think this here is in the SWTOR codex: http://db.darthhater.com/screenshot_images/2667/screenshot_2667/#2667

once again u probe that u dont listen to facts, ur still blind and refuse to see the whole picture.... every story needs some "good guys" and some "bad guys", every story needs conflicts.... and that of Star Wars has allways been the same conflict, and the same 2 sides, that was the way Lucas made it.... yes the movies put u in the eyes of the Jedis, thats why u agree and side with them, if u read further from what the movies and games show u, only then can u get a whole picture, and look at things diferent..... i repeat again, i have never said the sith are good, or jedi are evil.... but neither i say sith are evil and jedi are good..... ur just one sided becouse of ur ignorance, adn cant see no further than what it allows u..... stop reading ingame codex( it is wrong in many ways) and stop using the games and movies as sole backup for ur ideas........ go to wookkipedia for example in stead..... read the links i have posted.... only then can u break free from ur chains of ignorance...

 

 

An example of what a Jedi should be is found in Obi-Wan Kenobi.

an example of what Jedi should be is Qui-Gon Jinn(The grey Jedi) or hell Revan itself.... bttw i do agree with most of what u state on ur post. nice to see somebody trying to be less biased and trying to describe both sides more subjetive...

There are several issues with your post.

 

1. The rendition of the Code you have posted was created several thousands of years after the Tython and Great schism stuff. The Code you posted was created by Odan-Urr and was much more modest (though deceptively controlling and constricting) than what the original was. The original Code seems less controlling, but as we see from the Schisms, they were controlling. Odan-Urr's Code allowed for the Jedi to study the Dark Side so long as they were able to control it. Unfortunately, Odan-Urr's Code has been taken far too literally.

 

Okay, so only one thing but it addresses the points you made... kinda.

 

Edit: Didn't see you mention the Je'daii. Anyway, the first tenet of the Je'daii Code was expanded upon by the far wiser Odan-Urr. I would advise caution when learning the way of the Je'daii, as they had a meager grasp of The Force. Turn your attention to the likes Odan-Urr and Yoda.

 

Edit again: I'll be discussing the Jedi Code in a future thread. Look forward to it you will

Not to be taken literally? That only seems to worsen the Jedi's hypocritical and counter-intuitive situation. So you can use passions sometimes? Its OK to cause a little bit of chaos, if it achieves some measure of harmony ('peace' would be a better word, it certainly does not achieve harmony). And its OK to embrace ignorance now and then? If that is so then the Jedi Code is nothing but a empty mantra designed to lecture padawans and non-force users and justify the Jedi's actions. No wonder Kreia thought the Jedi were arrogant idiots.

And while you can argue that the Jedi are flawed, but at least their better than the Sith, this in itself is the classic flawed 'greater good' argument. The Jedi are flawed yes, and yes they prevent the suffering caused by the Sith. But their flaws come at the cost of lives, so those flaws need to be corrected, and can't be dismissed with a *shrug*. Indeed the galaxy would probably be a better place without Jedi (and Sith) How many wars have been caused by conflict between Jedi and Sith? Most of them, and all of the big ones. And I highly doubt all the death caused by those wars can justify the periods of 'peace'. If they can't reconcile their differences then they should abandon their teachings altogether, and leave the Force to the Celestials. Wait, what? Kreia agrees with me? I'll just add a few more stars to her chart then.

Oh and for the record, the Chancellor used to always be a Jedi. 'A Jedi does not act for personal power.' Oh, another hypocritical contradiction. Wonder how much suffering and death that one caused...

in the past some dark side users got their *** kicked by some light side users?

BTW if u insist on talking and repeating the same no-sence about buts being kicked, over and over again, and since u seems to actually ignore the real facts, i recomend u this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=573115

there people focus on The Empire and The Republic conflict, and about who over the history of the galaxy have been kicking whos a.s.s

This is all well and good, but you've failed to grasp the point of my argument and adress it. It doesn't matter if the Je'daii or the Jedi didn't completely understand the Force. Both tenets in both codes are almost exactly the same anyway. The fact is the Jedi rejected the teachings of the Sith absolutely, and refused to reconcile themselves with them. Odan-Durr only allowed study of the dark side so the knowledge could be used as a weapon against the Sith, not a means of reconciliation. But if the Jedi keep responding to the Sith with force, they will always cause chaos and never achieve harmony. And they will remain in ignorance and never achieve knowledge. The basis of my point is the Jedi have failed to uphold their own teachings.

 

Not to be taken literally? That only seems to worsen the Jedi's hypocritical and counter-intuitive situation. So you can use passions sometimes? Its OK to cause a little bit of chaos, if it achieves some measure of harmony ('peace' would be a better word, it certainly does not achieve harmony). And its OK to embrace ignorance now and then? If that is so then the Jedi Code is nothing but a empty mantra designed to lecture padawans and non-force users and justify the Jedi's actions. No wonder Kreia thought the Jedi were arrogant idiots.

 

And while you can argue that the Jedi are flawed, but at least their better than the Sith, this in itself is the classic flawed 'greater good' argument. The Jedi are flawed yes, and yes they prevent the suffering caused by the Sith. But their flaws come at the cost of lives, so those flaws need to be corrected, and can't be dismissed with a *shrug*. Indeed the galaxy would probably be a better place without Jedi (and Sith) How many wars have been caused by conflict between Jedi and Sith? Most of them, and all of the big ones. And I highly doubt all the death caused by those wars can justify the periods of 'peace'. If they can't reconcile their differences then they should abandon their teachings altogether, and leave the Force to the Celestials. Wait, what? Kreia agrees with me? I'll just add a few more stars to her chart then.

 

Oh and for the record, the Chancellor used to always be a Jedi. 'A Jedi does not act for personal power.' Oh, another hypocritical contradiction. Wonder how much suffering and death that one caused...

Failed to uphold their teachings? Or simply failed to comprehend what Odan-Urr tried to accomplish? You are right that the Jedi refuse the teachings of the Sith, with good reason. Few Jedi can study the history and lore of the Sith without being corrupted. Hence a restricted section in the Jedi archives. And Odan-Urr studied the Sith for knowledge's sake. Don't know where you came up with the idea that he wanted a weapon. Odan-Urr understood that knowledge can be found in the Sith teachings and knew that ignoring them would be ignorant. But wouldn't studying them when you are vulnerable to the Dark Side be a sign of ignorance? A Jedi should only study the Dark Side when they are fully attuned to the Light, or have the willpower to resist the Darkness.

Ummm... no? First off, Odan-Urr's rendition of the Jedi Code was far more loose than what it had become. Odan-Urr understood that emotions are necessary, as are passions, but they should not be allowed to cloud a Jedi's judgment. The actions of a single Jedi can change the entire galaxy. A Jedi can have emotions, so long as they do not interfere with the duties of a Jedi.

As to the chaos part. The line deals with inner chaos, mostly. The thing about the Light Side is that a Jedi must fully master themselves in order to master the Light Side. This includes calming the inner chaos. In order to calm the chaos of the galaxy, a Jedi must master their emotions and passions. A 'two bird with one stone' scenario. To outer chaos I say this: When the Jedi act as peacekeepers or soldiers, they are not embracing the chaos. One would assume so when they partake in these battles, but one would be wrong. The Jedi distance themselves from the battle, focused only on defending those who cannot defend themselves. They detatch themselves from the chaos of battle and attune themselves to The Force, letting it guide their actions.

Wars started by the Sith. While you could say that the galaxy would be better off without Sith and Jedi, but imagine that their were no Jedi to keep peace. The ultimate power in the universe would be in the hands of those who can't control it. The Force is in everything. Which means that these untrained idiots with the ultimate power can do whatever they want. Without the Jedi, these power-corrupt idiots would cause chaos. You can't just leave The Force to the Celestials. The Force is in everything and everyone. There will always be Force users, good or bad. Remember that Traya wanted to destroy The Force.

On the topic of Chancellors, unfortunately you are correct. But it was the Senate that elected them, so it really wasn't the Jedi going for power. Note that the only major conflict that occurred during that time was the New Sith Wars. And once again, that was caused by the Sith.

Unfortunately, there have been times where a Jedi has had to sit at the seat of power. Which goes against the Jedi Code. Hypocrites? At times. Arrogant? Depends on who you look at. If you use a single example to judge the Jedi, that is ignorance. Over the millenia, the Jedi have served. Are they arrogant because of their power? Again, depends on who you look at.

Views on the Jedi and their Code are simply a matter of perspective.

Edit: Like I said, the Code has been turned into something that Odan-Urr did not intend. I will elaborate on this in one of my threads.

Failed to uphold their teachings? Or simply failed to comprehend what Odan-Urr tried to accomplish? You are right that the Jedi refuse the teachings of the Sith, with good reason. Few Jedi can study the history and lore of the Sith without being corrupted. Hence a restricted section in the Jedi archives. And Odan-Urr studied the Sith for knowledge's sake. Don't know where you came up with the idea that he wanted a weapon. Odan-Urr understood that knowledge can be found in the Sith teachings and knew that ignoring them would be ignorant. But wouldn't studying them when you are vulnerable to the Dark Side be a sign of ignorance? A Jedi should only study the Dark Side when they are fully attuned to the Light, or have the willpower to resist the Darkness.

 

Ummm... no? First off, Odan-Urr's rendition of the Jedi Code was far more loose than what it had become. Odan-Urr understood that emotions are necessary, as are passions, but they should not be allowed to cloud a Jedi's judgment. The actions of a single Jedi can change the entire galaxy. A Jedi can have emotions, so long as they do not interfere with the duties of a Jedi.

 

As to the chaos part. The line deals with inner chaos, mostly. The thing about the Light Side is that a Jedi must fully master themselves in order to master the Light Side. This includes calming the inner chaos. In order to calm the chaos of the galaxy, a Jedi must master their emotions and passions. A 'two bird with one stone' scenario. To outer chaos I say this: When the Jedi act as peacekeepers or soldiers, they are not embracing the chaos. One would assume so when they partake in these battles, but one would be wrong. The Jedi distance themselves from the battle, focused only on defending those who cannot defend themselves. They detatch themselves from the chaos of battle and attune themselves to The Force, letting it guide their actions.

 

Wars started by the Sith. While you could say that the galaxy would be better off without Sith and Jedi, but imagine that their were no Jedi to keep peace. The ultimate power in the universe would be in the hands of those who can't control it. The Force is in everything. Which means that these untrained idiots with the ultimate power can do whatever they want. Without the Jedi, these power-corrupt idiots would cause chaos. You can't just leave The Force to the Celestials. The Force is in everything and everyone. There will always be Force users, good or bad. Remember that Traya wanted to destroy The Force.

 

On the topic of Chancellors, unfortunately you are correct. But it was the Senate that elected them, so it really wasn't the Jedi going for power. Note that the only major conflict that occurred during that time was the New Sith Wars. And once again, that was caused by the Sith.

 

Unfortunately, there have been times where a Jedi has had to sit at the seat of power. Which goes against the Jedi Code. Hypocrites? At times. Arrogant? Depends on who you look at. If you use a single example to judge the Jedi, that is ignorance. Over the millenia, the Jedi have served. Are they arrogant because of their power? Again, depends on who you look at.

 

Views on the Jedi and their Code are simply a matter of perspective.

And your probably going to say here that 'balance' in the Force is achieved when the dark side is no more - as the dark side is a corrupted version of the Force. And this is true and I would agree. But striking out at the dark side with force is not the way to 'destroy' it. The Jedi should not be attempting it 'destroy' it at all. But understand it and then pacify it, removing its malevolent aspects and reconciling it with the Force. And its users, to prevent future dark side threats emerging. A difficult task I know, but whenever was the path to the light an easy one.

And for the record Kreia did not want to destroy the Force, only deafen everyone to it, but I'll elaborate on that in my 'in-depth' on KOTOR 2.

And yes the Force is everything and everywhere, but it is a conscious choice to embrace it. If force sensitives are never trained to use their power, to tap into it, but instead to 'repress' it and detach themselves from it, then there would be no Jedi or Sith. And you call all non-sensitives leaders idiots, which is by no means true. What has the Force got to do with leadership? The Force is a tool, its the user that makes it good or evil. A Jedi is just as susceptible to corruption as a non-sensitive is. Its the Jedi teachings that give them wisdom, not the Force. And whose to say in our hypothetical non-Jedi/Sith universe that some sort of 'Order' could not remain? An Order whose role it is to collect knowledge and provide wisdom and guidance to the Republic, like a Church. And to monitor force sensitives, training them to repress their dangerous powers.

I assumed that Odan-Urr wished to understand the dark side so he could better combat their users. But perhaps he did not, I'm going to take your word for it concerning the dark side and passions. He was certainly wiser than most other Jedi in the Order. And while the Jedi may pertain to their code more than I originally thought. They still refuse to reconcile themselves with the dark side. The dark side is dangerous, and you make a good point that it is ignorant in itself to seek out understanding of the dark if you do not have the wisdom to confront it. But surely many masters did? Master Yoda, Odun-Durr, Satele Shan and many others achieved great attunement to the light side, and yet what did they do to bring light and dark closer together? This should be the primary goal of the Jedi, if they wan't to preach harmony and peace, then they have to achieve harmony and peace with the dark side and the Sith. Yes the line may refer to inner harmony but I believe it refers to harmony in the Force as well. And harmony in the Force cannot exist if Jedi and Sith continue to fight each other with any form of reconciliation of compromise. I can't think of a single war when the Jedi attempted to achieve peace and reconciliation with the Sith, they sought only to destroy them.

 

And your probably going to say here that 'balance' in the Force is achieved when the dark side is no more - as the dark side is a corrupted version of the Force. And this is true and I would agree. But striking out at the dark side with force is not the way to 'destroy' it. The Jedi should not be attempting it 'destroy' it at all. But understand it and then pacify it, removing its malevolent aspects and reconciling it with the Force. And its users, to prevent future dark side threats emerging. A difficult task I know, but whenever was the path to the light an easy one.

 

And for the record Kreia did not want to destroy the Force, only deafen everyone to it, but I'll elaborate on that in my 'in-depth' on KOTOR 2.

 

And yes the Force is everything and everywhere, but it is a conscious choice to embrace it. If force sensitives are never trained to use their power, to tap into it, but instead to 'repress' it and detach themselves from it, then there would be no Jedi or Sith. And you call all non-sensitives leaders idiots, which is by no means true. What has the Force got to do with leadership? The Force is a tool, its the user that makes it good or evil. A Jedi is just as susceptible to corruption as a non-sensitive is. Its the Jedi teachings that give them wisdom, not the Force. And whose to say in our hypothetical non-Jedi/Sith universe that some sort of 'Order' could not remain? An Order whose role it is to collect knowledge and provide wisdom and guidance to the Republic, like a Church. And to monitor force sensitives, training them to repress their dangerous powers.

Actually Yoda contemplated the Dark Side often without being corrupted.

While bridging the gap between Light and Dark is theoretically possible, but the Jedi can't be the only ones to reach out. And the Sith themselves are deceptive. In one hand they could hold an olive branch, but behind their backs they hide a dagger. I'm sure the Jedi would be able to co-exist with the Sith, but the nature of the Dark Side prevents this. And to say the Jedi never reach out to reconcile is a bit harsh. Surely the Jedi Knight and Consular stories prove you wrong. Praven and Braga?

The Jedi aren't out to destroy the Dark Side, simply its users. Wrong? Depends. The Sith have always sought conquest. Look at Naga Sadow. Technically, the Jedi and Sith were coexisting (albeit unbeknowest to the Jedi), but Sadow messed that up in his quest for conquest. The thirst for death and conquest from the Sith disrupts the balance of The Force. To restore balance, the Jedi have to stop the Sith. Could they do so peacefully? Possible, the Treaty of Coruscant shows that such a thing could be possible. But eventually that peace breaks down, both sides at fault. You see, the Dark Side creates a tension within the Jedi(another thing the chaos line deals with), and a desire for violence in the Sith. Both sides get spurred to action eventually.

I may have mispoke on the Traya thing. On the topic of KOTOR 2, I think Atris is partly at fault for the unfortunate change in the tone of the Code. Terrible Historian...

I wasn't referring to the leaders being idiots lol. The people that discover The Force and use it for stupid things are idiots. If you had The Force, what would you do? Probably use it for some trivial manner. This alone doesn't make you an idiot, but when you get the idea that you should be in charge of things just because you have this power does. But why shouldn't someone with power be in charge? Because an undisciplined individual would let that power go to their head. Turning him into a tyrannical dictator. Now that could be averted with a 'Order'.

If there were no Jedi and Sith, such an 'Order' could exist, but would eventually evolve into an Order akin to the Jedi or Sith.

Again though, such things are a matter of perspective. And, in the end, it comes down to the choices of an individual. Choices that will decide which path you choose.

Anyway, I'll be making a thread on Odan-Urr's Jedi Code to clear things up. If you feel the same way afterwards, fine. If not, good!

Edit: I would like to say one more thing about the Jedi Code. Originally, Odan-Urr's Code was a path to mastery of The Force. It was, unfortunately, turned into a Code of Conduct. Not that Odan-Urr didn't create a Code of Conduct to go along with it. More on this in the thread.

Actually Yoda contemplated the Dark Side often without being corrupted.

 

While bridging the gap between Light and Dark is theoretically possible, but the Jedi can't be the only ones to reach out. And the Sith themselves are deceptive. In one hand they could hold an olive branch, but behind their backs they hide a dagger. I'm sure the Jedi would be able to co-exist with the Sith, but the nature of the Dark Side prevents this. And to say the Jedi never reach out to reconcile is a bit harsh. Surely the Jedi Knight and Consular stories prove you wrong. Praven and Braga?

 

The Jedi aren't out to destroy the Dark Side, simply its users. Wrong? Depends. The Sith have always sought conquest. Look at Naga Sadow. Technically, the Jedi and Sith were coexisting (albeit unbeknowest to the Jedi), but Sadow messed that up in his quest for conquest. The thirst for death and conquest from the Sith disrupts the balance of The Force. To restore balance, the Jedi have to stop the Sith. Could they do so peacefully? Possible, the Treaty of Coruscant shows that such a thing could be possible. But eventually that peace breaks down, both sides at fault. You see, the Dark Side creates a tension within the Jedi(another thing the chaos line deals with), and a desire for violence in the Sith. Both sides get spurred to action eventually.

 

I may have mispoke on the Traya thing. On the topic of KOTOR 2, I think Atris is partly at fault for the unfortunate change in the tone of the Code. Terrible Historian...

 

I wasn't referring to the leaders being idiots lol. The people that discover The Force and use it for stupid things are idiots. If you had The Force, what would you do? Probably use it for some trivial manner. This alone doesn't make you an idiot, but when you get the idea that you should be in charge of things just because you have this power does. But why shouldn't someone with power be in charge? Because an undisciplined individual would let that power go to their head. Turning him into a tyrannical dictator. Now that could be averted with a 'Order'.

 

If there were no Jedi and Sith, such an 'Order' could exist, but would eventually evolve into an Order akin to the Jedi or Sith.

 

Again though, such things are a matter of perspective. And, in the end, it comes down to the choices of an individual. Choices that will decide which path you choose.

 

Anyway, I'll be making a thread on Odan-Urr's Jedi Code to clear things up. If you feel the same way afterwards, fine. If not, good!

 

Edit: I would like to say one more thing about the Jedi Code. Originally, Odan-Urr's Code was a path to mastery of The Force. It was, unfortunately, turned into a Code of Conduct. Not that Odan-Urr didn't create a Code of Conduct to go along with it. More on this in the thread.

And they can do it. Like you said Yoda studied the dark side without falling. But he failed to take that extra step, what use is that knowledge if he doesn't use it? That knowledge could have helped him reconcile Jedi with Sith. IMO this is the only way to achieve harmony in the Force, and to save countless lives in the future. Well not the only way, the other option is to reject the Force altogether. And establish a non force using, peacekeeping Order. Who effectively protect the galaxy from the destructive elements of the Force, and advise the Republic. I'm not sure what you mean by saying the Order would become like Jedi and Sith. If you mean that they would reembrace the Force then I disagree, if they truly believe their choice to reject the Force is the right one, then they will stick with it.

And yes, Atris is a terrible historian. She is also responsible for the fallacy that Kreia wanted to destroy the Force. She is also in my top 5 most hated Star Wars characters. Along with the whole of the KOTOR Jedi Council, apart from the Yoda dude, he's cool.

The Jedi don't try and destroy the dark side because they cannot, if they could, they would do so, without a second thought. I think you misunderstand me though, I'm not asking the Jedi to accept the Sith and try and broker a peace between them, but to reconcile the Sith with their own teachings. And so effectively dispel the dark side by pacifying it. Tol Braga and co. attempted to redeem the Emperor to the light (idiots, that guy is loco crazy) but this is not what I'm asking. It only further displays the arrogance of the Jedi. "We are right, and we are so right were not only going to destroy you, we are going to make you believe it first!". The Jedi need to understand that they need to change too, the reconciliation of Sith with Jedi and Jedi with Sith must be a mutual one. Both Orders must change if they are to achieve harmony and a new kind of 'light'.

 

And they can do it. Like you said Yoda studied the dark side without falling. But he failed to take that extra step, what use is that knowledge if he doesn't use it? That knowledge could have helped him reconcile Jedi with Sith. IMO this is the only way to achieve harmony in the Force, and to save countless lives in the future. Well not the only way, the other option is to reject the Force altogether. And establish a non force using, peacekeeping Order. Who effectively protect the galaxy from the destructive elements of the Force, and advise the Republic. I'm not sure what you mean by saying the Order would become like Jedi and Sith. If you mean that they would reembrace the Force then I disagree, if they truly believe their choice to reject the Force is the right one, then they will stick with it.

 

And yes, Atris is a terrible historian. She is also responsible for the fallacy that Kreia wanted to destroy the Force. She is also in my top 5 most hated Star Wars characters. Along with the whole of the KOTOR Jedi Council, apart from the Yoda dude, he's cool.

You do make a good point. However the blame cannot lay solely on the shoulders of the Jedi. Or the Sith for that matter. They may both be at fault for the wars and strife between them, but it is far greater than that. While the Sith and the Jedi can control themselves, it is the Dark Side that they cannot control. The Dark Side is corruption, destruction and unnatural. One could say that the Dark Side pushes the Sith to do these things. It cannot be controlled except by those with the will to do so.

I like your ideas for bridging the gap, but to do so would require the removal of the Dark Side. The very nature of the Dark Side works against this 'peace.'

And on the topic of Yoda, he really couldn't reconcile with the Sith. He tried to save Dooku, but that didn't work out. He never really had the chance to do as you suggested. And really, does anyone think Sidious would form a bridge between him and Yoda? No. Sidious was the ultimate Sith Lord and Jedi Hater, and Yoda probably wouldn't even try after what Sidious did.

Yes, Atris was baaaad at her job. However, I would hesitate to judge the rest of the Jedi on the actions of the KOTOR Jedi. Remember that Meetra Surik re-created the Jedi Order, so they did change. Not for long, but they never got as bad as the KOTOR Jedi. Not in my opinion. But of course, opinion is subjective so lets leave it at that.

The light cannot survive long without the dark neither the dark without the light.The question isn't if there is

going to be conflict but when it's going to happen.Those sides will always fight each other, and both

play their parts.The Jedi want freedom,peace,justice.The Sith want power, and peace but with them

rulling.And they will always want more power regardless if they to kill at any number.If the Jedi

were the chance they would make peace with the Sith and that's their flaw.They must all

understand that if you want peace then prepare for war.Because you know the peace will end eventually.

Sure the Jedi have been harsh a few times but that resulted into long lasting peace.

When they exiled the fallen Jedi at the Great Schism they returned after nearly 2,000 years. And the Jedi

could have killed them .That would bring more years of peace.But their not murderers.

At they end of the Hyperspace War they killed them yes,BUT,it was the Republic's call not theirs.

If it was they would let them live,But the Sith returned.They always do.But the Jedi do the same.

At every Jedi Purge they were nearly destroyed,but they always returned.

Conclussion: Conflict is inevitable.And will happen again and again.Because no side can be destroyed.Whatever

happens the side will always return reggardless if they change name or rules.That's because they evolve.

Every side is important in this endless war .It can't and it won't end even if the galaxy gets destroyed and both sides

with it. Eventually it will continue.You can't stop it.Just sit and watch, hoping for your side to win. Because that's

what is all about.Observing,hoping,loving,fighting.......living.Living in hope that the Force will grant forever eternal peace at last.

konstadinosblue:SWTOR player - Philosopher....

You do make a good point. However the blame cannot lay solely on the shoulders of the Jedi. Or the Sith for that matter. They may both be at fault for the wars and strife between them, but it is far greater than that. While the Sith and the Jedi can control themselves, it is the Dark Side that they cannot control. The Dark Side is corruption, destruction and unnatural. One could say that the Dark Side pushes the Sith to do these things. It cannot be controlled except by those with the will to do so.

 

I like your ideas for bridging the gap, but to do so would require the removal of the Dark Side. The very nature of the Dark Side works against this 'peace.'

 

And on the topic of Yoda, he really couldn't reconcile with the Sith. He tried to save Dooku, but that didn't work out. He never really had the chance to do as you suggested. And really, does anyone think Sidious would form a bridge between him and Yoda? No. Sidious was the ultimate Sith Lord and Jedi Hater, and Yoda probably wouldn't even try after what Sidious did.

 

Yes, Atris was baaaad at her job. However, I would hesitate to judge the rest of the Jedi on the actions of the KOTOR Jedi. Remember that Meetra Surik re-created the Jedi Order, so they did change. Not for long, but they never got as bad as the KOTOR Jedi. Not in my opinion. But of course, opinion is subjective so lets leave it at that.

I also can't stress enough that I am not implying that the Jedi should accept the Sith, but they should instead take a different approach to fixing the problem of the dark side. And understand that light side doesn't = Jedi. Of course the Sith, especially Rule of Two Sith, would fight this. But they will die, be overthrown, destroyed etc and in some situations force is the only option. But if after the Sith have been put down once again, the Jedi refuse to change, then the conflict will continue perpetually as new Sith become disgruntled with the Order and take their place. Its an endless cycle of death and destruction. And you would think the Jedi would have realised that, and perhaps thought that maybe they were problem. But I'm not casting blame, both sides are a fault and the Sith more so, but that isn't an excuse for not changing. That's what the Jedi need, change.

And on the topic of the KOTOR Jedi, I mean the Jedi Council that exiled Meetra Surik. No one else. Just those arrogant fools, Kavar, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell and Lonna Vash.

Again a confusion with reconciliation and redemption. They are different things, the Jedi have never attempted to change to accommodate those who believe in the dark side as a means of 'destroying' it. And its about time they did. Nor do I believe, as konstadinosblue seems too, that conflict is inevitable. It is not, it is inevitable however if each side never decides to change, to accommodate. Neither Yoda nor any other Jedi has done this or attempted to.

 

I also can't stress enough that I am not implying that the Jedi should accept the Sith, but they should instead take a different approach to fixing the problem of the dark side. And understand that light side doesn't = Jedi. Of course the Sith, especially Rule of Two Sith, would fight this. But they will die, be overthrown, destroyed etc and in some situations force is the only option. But if after the Sith have been put down once again, the Jedi refuse to change, then the conflict will continue perpetually as new Sith become disgruntled with the Order and take their place. Its an endless cycle of death and destruction. And you would think the Jedi would have realised that, and perhaps thought that maybe they were problem. But I'm not casting blame, both sides are a fault and the Sith more so, but that isn't an excuse for not changing. That's what the Jedi need, change.

 

And on the topic of the KOTOR Jedi, I mean the Jedi Council that exiled Meetra Surik. No one else. Just those arrogant fools, Kavar, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell and Lonna Vash.

You're right. Both sides need to change. But what we have is the classic 'I'm right you're wrong' debacle. Both sides are to blame. However, change must be applied to both sides. One side cannot change while the other remains the same. I think Luke Skywalker made the necessary changes to accomplish this(much as I disagree with some of them), but Krayt didn't. They may have worked together once, but Krayt wasn't willing to fully bridge that gap (as seen by the Sith-Imperial War).

If both sides continue with the attitude they have, conflict is inevitable.

Really though, we could talk this in circles so let's leave it here.

Edit: On a lighter note, how interesting would Star Wars be if the good guys and bad guys were all buddy-buddy?

You're right. Both sides need to change. But what we have is the classic 'I'm right you're wrong' debacle. Both sides are to blame. However, change must be applied to both sides. One side cannot change while the other remains the same. I think Luke Skywalker made the necessary changes to accomplish this(much as I disagree with some of them), but Krayt didn't. They may have worked together once, but Krayt wasn't willing to fully bridge that gap (as seen by the Sith-Imperial War).

 

If both sides continue with the attitude they have, conflict is inevitable.

 

Really though, we could talk this in circles so let's leave it here.

 

Edit: On a lighter note, how interesting would Star Wars be if the good guys and bad guys were all buddy-buddy?