Wait, where was I when this happened?

this is the scene in question. Actually, when you think about it, it doesn't even necessarily suggest if her idea is for you to use it on her or her to use it on you.

Ah, yes, I chose the first option about making the most of it.

So you would give this game an "M" rating based on 1/42 of the game? Makes sense, if you don't think about it. Of course, from the sound of your post, you want the same sort of nanny-media that the OP wants. If you think something might be too much for your child, don't let them participate. The ratings are just a guideline, it's up to the parents to decide if their child can handle the game or not.

 

The fact that Vette wears a collar, and has been ensalved makes sense. She snuck onto Korriban, the Sith Holy World where only Sith, select servants of the Sith, and some elite Imperial soldiers are allowed. Then she broke into Naga Sadows tomb, a place sacred to the Sith where only Sith are supposed to go, in an attempt to steal an artifact.

 

The only reason she wasn't killed immediately, or given to the Inquisitors is because she's the only one who's managed to get past the obstacles. Now, how do you insure her cooperation? There's always the threat of death, but that doesn't really stop her from from running away the first chance she gets. The most convenient way is the shock collar.

 

If you're playing the truly dark Sith Warrior, you can keep the collar on because she's now a slave. You use it to shock her when ever she gets uppity because she's a slave. Sith don't like it when their slaves get any ideas. Even Barras says that the only trustworthy being in the galaxy, or something like that, is a "properly beaten down slave."

 

Or, you can reward hard work by freeing her, such as freedom is in the Empire, and take the collar off.

If you actually read my post I don't agree with much the OP says and like the game world just like it is. Better lines than "Time for some violence" would be better however and on that, the OP and I agree.

With the violence and Vetee as an in your face slave ... I might go with an "M " rating. By itself no ... but when everything else is added then maybe.

I know what Sith are. My post explains that and how it wouldn't be right to tone it down without corrupting the story.

Reading is key. Try again.

Which stance? The "this aspect of the game is too scandalous for my sensibilities and should be removed" stance?

Yeah. That one.

I actually just learned this because my warrior is with Jaesa and this thread made me wanna look up the Vette romance, Vette is explicitly NOT a sex slave. if you romance her, she at one point tells you she's a virgin because she promised her mother she'd save it for marriage. So Vette's slavery is not and has never been sexual in nature. Sadly, her bustier sister did not escape such a fate, but the game portrays it in an appropriately negative light...I have no problem with a game depicting a social ill that exists in the real world, so long as it doesn't appear to endorse it, and this game in no way endorses it.

Also, regarding what you said about Quinn...I totally agree with the basic thrust of what you're saying, but maybe Quinn's not the best example in the game, since

so a relationship where you're abusing Quinn is actually pretty dysfunctional both ways.

The sith are essentially a noble class, only distinguished from the commoners by force sensitivity instead of land ownership or money. and then you have the Emperor, who more resembles some sort of devil figure than anything in human history, his evil is so utterly alien and so cosmic in scope. Which is to say, the Empire is a generic, sometimes slightly cartoonish distillation of evil regimes and oppression in general, much as one could say Mordor and Sauron are.

If you actually read my post I don't agree with much the OP says and like the game world just like it is. Better lines than "Time for some violence" would be better however and on that, the OP and I agree.

 

With the violence and Vetee as an in your face slave ... I might go with an "M " rating. By itself no ... but when everything else is added then maybe.

 

I know what Sith are. My post explains that and how it wouldn't be right to tone it down without corrupting the story.

 

Reading is key. Try again.

Having said that, just on the Vette issue alone I would have given this game the "M" rating. Given a slave to dominate in any way you seem fit ... and the dialogue says just this thing ... as well as the added bonus of shocking her into submission is much different than implied slavery and torture. It's actually doing it in game, up close and personal. Probably a little too much for the kiddies.

No, you do want the game to have an M rating, just because of what can happen with Vette. Which is 1/42 of the game. Actually, it's much less of the game.

In the end, the game will actively punish you for being too mean to 'poor little Vette.'

 

Also, in the end, you're the one pressing the "be evil!" button whenever it comes up. When you could have avoided all of this and all of making yourself uncomfortable by TAKING OFF THE DAMN COLLAR. It's that simple.

This has also been pointed out to him. Which he's blissfully ignored and continued to soapbox at people. It's apparently irrelevant to him that he CHOSE to do those things. To him, the simple fact that they EXIST is enough to get him whipped up into a frenzy over it.

The thing is, he fails to see what's really there. He keeps insisting she's a "sex slave", when she's never been treated sexually at all. She's a SLAVE, that's all. She's been beaten, tortured, shocked, and more.

But you know what? She hasn't been BROKEN. Despite everything that's happened to her, everything a "rarh, darkside!" PC can do to her, she won't break. She will continue to rise above what's being done to her, and continue to be the strong-willed, individualistic person she is. She won't become anyone's submissive doormat.

Doesn't that, really, make her an incredibly STRONG character? I think so.

I didn't read through all of the 50 pages, but I will say this - the OP misses the point.

The game actually gives you, the player, the ability to choose. You can choose what person your character is. You are not forced to be a horrible monster who tortures and ***** Vette. Yes, you have the option to become such a person, but you have the other options too.

For example, the minute Vette asked me to remove the shock collar, I did so, but I also kept my emotional distance and asserted my leading role instead of toading up to her by proposing a partnership - it felt logical given the way I want to develop my Sith Warrior. I have never once tortured her - it's just not something my character would do. He recognizes that a happy Vette is a useful Vette. And he actually doesn't mind her constant blabbering and wisecracking - it's refreshing for him after a lifetime among brooding murderers who are so full of themselves that it's a wonder they haven't blown up already...

Another example - I have recently landed on Balmorra and a quest had me planting explosive collars on rebel corpses on the battlefields in order to weaken the resistance when they try to get the gear of their dead. However, I also found out that a lot of innocent civilans, children included, looted the battlefield and there was a chance of huge colateral damage. So why did I do? I planted explosive grenades, to be sure that only enemy soldiers would get blown up when they try to get them. The Imperials weren't happy with me at all - they wanted the colateral damage on the civilians, but my character is not a blood-thirsty maniac and he'd totally think that killing innocents would only lend credence to the rebels' cause.

This is how the game is. Yes, the cartoony graphics are misleading and the game is kinda dark. Yes, the Galaxy is not a happy place right now. But you do have a choice. You can choose good or neutrality (myself, I'm not even a Light Side Sith; I'm neutral leaning slightly to the darkness - the above were just examples).

But, more importantly, to the OP - when you choose the Empire, you get the bad guys. You don't want to be a bad guy? Go to the Republic, then. The Jedi are not murderers and tortures, the Troopers don't kill for money, the Smugglers... are witty and funny.

Overall - yes, this is Star Wars, I know, it's not Dostoevsky or something. It's pure entertainment made mostly for teenagers and young adults. But the point of view of the OP is flawed and skewed. Just because this is only entertainment, doesn't mean the story is so flat or one-sided. There are bad people and there are wrong choices and evil actions; this goes for both Star Wars and the real life. But you are not robbed of the right to choose. If you chose to be evil and to torture Vette and are now feeling guilty, that's your problem - you made the choice, now live with it. But come on - this is just a game. And it's not the game's fault if the player wants to be an evil character. That's a slippery slope that leads to censure and overall bull****.

Dear OP,

While I respect you for sticking your neck out to the community like this, I completely disagree with most of what you said, and your argument seems unfocused at times and is hard to understand.

It also sounds like MMOs are just not your genre.

It's difficult to tell whether your initial argument is that TOR's evil is too evil, or that TOR's story doesn't support the evil that is required. In either case, I think your argument misses the mark.

Are you telling me that Mario killing thousands of Koopas simply because the king asks him to go get his daughter back is more justifiable than the mission parameters of this game? As mentioned earlier, are you saying that killing hundreds of Kobold because they chose to occupy prime real estate in Elwynn Forest is justifiable?

I would disagree. These are some of the most successful games in history, and they demand genocide without even coming close to providing the story support that TOR has.

Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, on the other hand, provides more in the way of well written and well acted story, but allows much much more in the way of morally reprehensible behavior. Are you saying that anything in TOR is as depraved as having sex with a prostitute in a dark alley and then running her over to get your money back?

Again, I would disagree. Nothing you can do in TOR is as bad as most of what Rockstar puts out.

Even if you're talking about a balancing test of story & evil I think TOR compares favorably to nearly every other game out there, even the ones where you're playing as the good guy, and it certainly compares favorably to others in the MMO genre where you're required to kill thousands of NPCs or even player characters to grind levels or achievements.

If anything, the story compells the feeling that the behavior is evil because your actions affect voice acted NPCs, not hostile mobs that are trying to kill you like Mario and WoW. Rarely do people stop to think about the fact that they are killing entire communities of sentient creatures in those games because they are just hostile NPCs. I think by offering choices TOR can explore people's visceral reactions. Such as:

In that way, your argument is almost entirely self defeating, and I haven't even begun to address the fact that an MMO is just generally a poor platform for "art."

Though this appeared to be a side argument, I also disagree about the game's rating. GTASA still warranted an M rating until the previously inaccessible sex mini game was hacked. Again, no graphic depictions of sex, no dirty talk, no flagrant cursing, and no points for murdering police officers or beating people to death with a giant purple sex toy.

This is gotten long, so I'll try to be brief with the art argument:

The production of MMOs is motivated by profit.

The 3 main arguments that I would derive from that would be these:

1. This creates a medium for customer feedback, and as evidenced here, there will never be a time when everyone is satisfied.

2. The story and world are designed for mass appeal and (arguably with this game) mass playability respectively. Therefore the product is again a slave to the whims of the masses rather than the sheer creativity of the designer.

3. Greed as a motive for art is just dirty. There could be an entirely separate argument about what Art is, but you typically desire something a little more transcendental than profit as the desired end.

Just consider what Michelangelo's sculptures would have looked like if he was thinking "hmm, what will people like the most, what will make me

Also, just as an aside, while I don't believe physical or sexual abuse should ever be tolerated in real life, it seems to me that characterizing any instance of male on female abuse as "sexual abuse" while arguing for gender equality is a bit contradictory.

I haven't levelled my warrior very high, but it appeared to me that the shocking was neither explicitly nor implicitly sexual. I have tried to allow myself to role play the stories as much as possible so I may reboot the warrior and see how I'm affected by different choices. I may also re-roll as female and see what options I get for interacting with Vette and see how different the dialogue is.

I'm sorry, this is what I read;

"I am a human being. Like most, I hold inside me a terrible, animal side that secretly desires to conquer, own, and use the people around me. I am also a sexual being who takes great pleasure in fantasying about being sexually dominate.

BW forces me to face this fact about myself by giving me the choice to either not be evil, or be evil. I was simply unable to resist this temptation. I choice to be evil. And I loved it.

This has forced me to rethink my world view. Realize that the reason I don't do horrible things is not because I am a "good" person, but because I fear repercussion.

In a world with no rules, would I be a monster? The very daemon I fear?"

Isn't that ... exactly how art is supposed to make us feel?

Thank you so much Bioware. For the flaws and issues of this game, THIS is why we love. You made Video games art.

The Sith Warrior storyline is awesome BECAUSE it makes you hate yourself. It's awesome BECAUSE most people in modern society will never understand it. It's awesome BECAUSE polite society finds its content reprehensible, inappropriate, and unsuitable for polite society. It IS.

Awesome. Just awesome. I love this game even more now, because of this thread. Thank you, Shampoo, for reminding me what I hate about polite society and its homogenizing influence on storytelling.

Well, from what I recall, after removing her collar you basically say "It's you and me against the universe". She kind of goes "aheh...uh...okay". So she's not entirely convinced that you're a nice person yet, so asking if you'll let her go might be pushing it, at least from her point of view. I can see why she wouldn't, immediately, since you being nice to her MIGHT just be an act, after all, and asking to leave might get the collar slapped on again, or worse.

 

 

 

Correction, Sith *NPCs* act that way. Your character is your own to play, and act out. Yes, your dialogue choices are limited -- there's no way to give a player absolute freedom of choice, after all, especially in an MMO setting -- but you still don't HAVE to treat everyone like potential pawns.

 

My sorceress, for instance, is honestly a nice person. She was just born into a horrible, twisted society, and she's trying to make her way in it as best she can. She has a nasty temper, however, and it sometimes gets the better of her.

 

My sith warrior thinks other sith are mindless, drooling idiots who can only think of themselves and personal power. She enjoys standing up to them, slapping them across the face, and smirking as they try and threaten her. She's a ****** and she knows it. But she treats all the NON-sith with respect, because they're what makes the Empire actually WORK. Troopers, Intelligence, the average citizen -- these are people she actually respects. The fact that she can fling people about and wave a lightsaber makes her more POWERFUL, but it (in her mind) shouldn't automatically grant her respect. That's earned.

 

But anyway. This is going off onto a rather broad tangent.

 

In short, I CAN see why Vette would (initially) choose to linger around, probably out of fear of being killed/punished if she pushed things. Then, after time, as she gets to know your (light-side) sith warrior, and realizes they're actually not a bad person after all, she chooses to stay voluntarily.

 

So I wouldn't call it poor writing or anything; you just have to look beyond the surface motivations. That's what storytelling is all about.

Very nice. I've been waiting for someone else to see this, the writing isn't that bad you just have to "see" between the lines

I'm sorry, this is what I read;

 

"I am a human being. Like most, I hold inside me a terrible, animal side that secretly desires to conquer, own, and use the people around me. I am also a sexual being who takes great pleasure in fantasying about being sexually dominate.

 

BW forces me to face this fact about myself by giving me the choice to either not be evil, or be evil. I was simply unable to resist this temptation. I choice to be evil. And I loved it.

 

This has forced me to rethink my world view. Realize that the reason I don't do horrible things is not because I am a "good" person, but because I fear repercussion.

 

In a world with no rules, would I be a monster? The very daemon I fear?"

 

Isn't that ... exactly how art is supposed to make us feel?

 

Thank you so much Bioware. For the flaws and issues of this game, THIS is why we love. You made Video games art.

/highfive

The reason this is even seen to be an issue is because we are a much LESS violent people now than at any time in history...or prehistory. Amazingly a book on this is a current bestseller.

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0670022950

A good read for anyone that has any interest in violence in our society and its depiction in popular culture.

Now whether or not shocking someone is sexualized would be entirely within the mind of the person performing the action and the person its performed on. Since in this case the victim or participant is purely pixels the only person...though its by proxy is the OP.

Also obviously there is little "normal" in sexual conduct. And there is a wide range of roughness that people feel is acceptable. OP should probably wrap their head around the fact that vanilla isn't for a lot of people.

I think the OP offers a fascinating glimpse into how mainstream content gets dumbed-down over time. Television today is mostly LAME -- familiar content completely weighted down by politically-correct writing. Every episode of CSI:Miami or Law & Order: SVU features a terrified woman who has been violently oppressed by a testosterone-driven man. There's nothing mentally challenging here, just judgmental people spouting familiar refrains in the most simplistic manner possible. The reason it is that way is because, over time, people like the original poster, and the similarly-minded special interest groups that have risen over time, have come to hold sway over the television industry.

Video game storytelling, along with other new media (e.g. YouTube) has upset the apple cart precisely because it challenges the politically correct establishment. A special interest group can devastate a national network that goofs in a prime time show. But it can do NOTHING about a video game or YouTube story. That's what makes it so powerful.

Rue the day when it becomes otherwise.

There's no sexual violence against Vette, what the hell are you talking about?

This times 10.

Besides you can't even continue her side quest until you take off the collar.

And nearly everyone in my guild plays a dark side imperial and we all unanimously agree that republic characters can be way more evil than imperial ones.

My sith warrior never gets the chance to threaten struggling twilek pilgrims for information.

Never gets the chance to kill a primitive force user that seeks help.

Never gets the chance to wipe the memory of one of his companions because they didn't like my choices.

Dark republic characters make imperial characters looks like choir boys.

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

Why does slavery and bigotery sicken your GF but not you?

Some of the most powerful Sith are women by the way and they do these things just as well as the males.

My GF played the game as well and had no problems with it on her IA.

That being said I have not witnessed sexual violence on my 4 imperial characters yet. Slavery, deception, hate etc. yes but that? No.

Edit: Never pressed space bar when playing a quest/storyline first time.

Edit: And the writing is not better or worse what you see in SW. Its about on par with the movies.

I read most of the thread, so I'd like to summarize key points the OP evaded, while answering (for the 53 pages of the thread) to himself, mostly.

- You can choose whether to use the shock collar on Vette. Having watched a video containing most of the instances in which Vette is tortured specifically so I could reply, I can confirm that THERE IS NO SEXUAL ABUSE of her, at any given point. As said a page or two back she actually keeps the collar, and might use it with the SW, if in a romance.

The torture happens, either because the PC wants to make a point, or simply for the kicks in what I've seen. Since the player CAN and MUST choose whether he wants to see this content, there is absolutely no reason the ESRB, or PEGI or anyone would change the rating. It IS possible to torture her, but it's not, required, nor encouraged by anyone.

The CHOICE part is especially important in this arguement. The OP claims children shouldn't be able to see this content, when they can choose whether they want. They might be better off for doing so, because they can learn from the depravity of the Sith.

- Most Sith are inherrently evil(Lord Praven is an example of one who isn't). That means their actions can be, by real world standards, completely illogical. They torture, kill, enslave, and worse because they can, and even find pleasure in it. Even non-Sith are content with such activity, and encourage it. The Empire as a whole is a society where evils such as genocide are fully acceptable, and thus the title of the thread makes total sense for Imps. That means it's to be expected that when makes DS choices, they'll be evil. Like really evil. Best example so far for me has been Major Bessiker and son, Balmorra, SI storyline, won't give any spoilers, but I was near amazed at how depraved it all was. Nearly had a maniacal-laughter moment myself. Don't really know what the OP was expecting, when choosing DS choices as an Imp.

- Male on Female torture is: BAD OH MI GAWD WUT DID I JUS DO?! Female on Male torture: Nothing to see here, move on. I haven't seen the OP adressing SW torture of Quinn(is it Quinn, haven't played a SW yet). I know for a fact that my SI has tortured equal amounts male and female NPCs, probably more males too. Why do we only look at Vette's torture again? Just because she's Twi'lek and female? Ridiculous.

I think the OP's problem is he has a Vette avatar here. He really should change it to trollface. Also please, cut it out with "my journalist friends and I" and other such rubbish. You gave us Kotaku FFS, and along with it sites/blogs, commenting WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME, on the damn Kotaku article. For shame. If you're really bothered by choices YOU made in the bloody game, choices YOU knew would be evil, and have to QQ in the forums instead of rerolling or something then you're beyond help.

Only thing I agree with is lack of consequence for such actions. Since the thread's mostly about Vette's handling, perhaps she could one day try to kill you in your sleep or backstab you. That would be interesting.

@ByronixHero

Well said.

Only thing I agree with is lack of consequence for such actions. Since the thread's mostly about Vette's handling, perhaps she could one day try to kill you in your sleep or backstab you. That would be interesting.

You know, I pretty much agree there. I think that in place of the scripted sequence in the SW story where

the betrayal should come from the companion you have the least affection with, which is probably Vette if you kept her collared, or perhaps default to Vette if you kept her collared. and she's like "yeah, you're an a hole, Baras offered to remove the collar if I killed you". That would frankly be a better story than how they currently have it, albeit probably harder to code.

I think though the main reason for lack of consequences is gameplay limitations. This isn't a singleplayer game where you go through the story and done, these characters are persistent, many people will likely play them for years to come, and the history of games like this pretty clearly shows that when choices you make early on can mechanically gimp your character permanently, make them have inferior stats to other players playing the same class, people get frustrated and quit because they feel like the work they've put into their character is now for nothing.

Look at the way some people already game light side/dark side choices or companion affection because they don't care about story and just want maximum points. If they started having it so companions could turn on you if they felt mistreated or didn't like how you do things, it wouldn't be very long before some player figured out the correct set of decisions for each class that kept every companion loyal and gave maximum mechanical benefit, and this became the "right" way to play your class. And just like back in WOW guilds and groups, the moment such "right" ways to play emerged started to discriminate against players who didn't have the "right" talent build or the "right" professions, we would start to see players who lacked all their companions or otherwise had played their character the "wrong" way denied admission, which would be a very bad thing for a game that's supposed to be about role playing and making choices. This kind of thing is largely the reason they removed all options that allowed you to kill companions early in beta. So yeah, consequences for your choices are great, as long as they're purely story-based consequences and don't have a mechanical impact.

To speak from my own personal experience for a moment though...

When I bought this game, I was pretty used to morality systems in games being kinda bad. simplistic, cheesy, not always consistent, likely to shoehorn you into being a saint or a psycho if you want maximum benefit. And there are certainly plenty of instances in this game where I felt that was the case, that the moral choices presented were out of context, or contradicted what earlier moral choices had said was the right thing. for example

there are lots of other such situations, where you are given light side points simply for NOT murdering someone you had no reason whatsoever to murder at all, where punishing someone is considered dark side regardless of whether they deserve punishment, even one instance where killing an NPC on the grounds they're too dangerous to live is considered light side, when in every single other situation where such choices came up, that was the dark side option.

So, basically expecting that kind of stuff, I decided I was gonna play a full dark side sith warrior essentially for laughs. Ignore whether the morality system was plausible or well written, and just be a totally unrealistic moustache-twirling maniac and laugh at how hammy this would come off. And for the most part that's what I've done and still do. I'm dark V, I've killed or belittled almost everyone I've met, I'm romancing Jaesa and snickering at what psychotic babies those two will produce. And when I first got Vette, I pushed the shock option every time it came up and laughed. But then something happened about halfway through Dromund Kaas...I realized I was starting to get attached to this girl. She was cute and plucky and fun, well written and well voice acted and I liked her, and I started finding myself looking for ways I could "justify" being nice to her to my character's personality. I took the collar off her after Balmorra, the first time it gave me the option without giving me light side points, rationalizing that my character would approve of her begging instead of trying to sass him, and that even he would finally see her hard work as deserving of reward. I even found him giving her a couple of compliments or kind words now and then. If there's any speck of something decent or human in my malicious monster, she'll be the one to reach it. And the fact the game managed to evoke that kind of emotional reaction from me that it actually helped shape how I play? brilliant writing, it would be a damn crime to censor that for the sake of being politically correct.